Detention Barns at Belmont

[linrom1]

Belmont Park to use detention barns when meet opens in May

The New York Racing Association plans to begin using pre-race detention barns for horses when Belmont Park opens its 60-day spring-summer meeting on May 4.

This is great news.

[cj]

Here is the story:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=53507&subsec=1

Hats off to NYRA.

[GameTheory]

Excellent.

Ok, NY handicappers, from which trainers should we expect to see a win% drop?

[cj]

Dutrow and Levine for starters.

[JustRalph]

I think the true story will be which trainers decide not to run at Belmont..........

[ElKabong]

True enuff, Ralph.

The Pha might benefit greatly from this. Slots coming soon, no detention barn, etc...Lot of options for horsemen in that area, they can ship all over for nice purses.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Dutrow and Levine for starters.

CJ your above post! Does this mean you suspect these trainers of cheating? Why do you think this? Do you have proof or are you just assuming?

[cj]

Yeah Tom, I have proof. I sneak my own samples from their horses from here in Belgium. You are kidding, right?

I have common sense. I expect their win percentages to drop, take it however you like. Did anyone notice how bad St. Liam ran when shipped to Santa Anita at odds on in the Big Cap for Dutrow? Coincedence? I don't know, but I know I was betting he would throw in a clunker!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Yeah Tom, I have proof. I sneak my own samples from their horses from here in Belgium. You are kidding, right?

I have common sense. I expect their win percentages to drop, take it however you like. Did anyone notice how bad St. Liam ran when shipped to Santa Anita at odds on in the Big Cap for Dutrow? Coincedence? I don't know, but I know I was betting he would throw in a clunker!

I dont understand why you want to slander someone when you dont have any proof.Would hate for someone to call you on your assumptions. Be fair CJ..NOT everyone is a cheat.

[GameTheory]

I dont understand why you want to slander someone when you dont have any proof.Would hate for someone to call you on your assumptions. Be fair CJ..NOT everyone is a cheat.Hey, I *asked* for conjectures here -- who do we think will see a drop in their win% with the detention barns? Suspecting someone might be cheating (because you have common sense) is not the same as accusing them of cheating (in which case you should have direct evidence of a particular horse and a particular race).

What the hell is the detention barn for? To stop cheaters that they can't catch easily/directly otherwise. I guess they should have proof that all trainers are cheating before they implement the policy! The whole point is that we don't have proof because it is hard to get, but this policy will cut-down on the cheating anyone with half a brain believes is going on...

[breakage]

I dont understand why you want to slander someone when you dont have any proof.Would hate for someone to call you on your assumptions. Be fair CJ..NOT everyone is a cheat.
Geezus.....do you ever comprehend anything before you spout off? Didn't you say you were going away? I know people find you entertaining at times but it seems like you read about every third word someone says and then post some ridiculous response that accuses peple of saying something they didn't. Don't you ever wonder why people on here make fun of you? If you haven't then you need to.

[andicap]

Do they use detention barns or any extra type of drug monitoring for Breeders Cup or Triple crown races above and beyond the day-to-day races at that particular track?

[GameTheory]

Do they use detention barns or any extra type of drug monitoring for Breeders Cup or Triple crown races above and beyond the day-to-day races at that particular track?Yes.

[highnote]

Do they use detention barns or any extra type of drug monitoring for Breeders Cup or Triple crown races above and beyond the day-to-day races at that particular track?

Michael Dickinson does. :)

[andicap]

If that is the case, that they use extra precautions for drug use in these races, without naming names -- isn't it funny how certain trainers have not done well in these races yet rack up huge percentages the rest of the time?

[the little guy]

Geezus.....do you ever comprehend anything before you spout off? Didn't you say you were going away? I know people find you entertaining at times but it seems like you read about every third word someone says and then post some ridiculous response that accuses peple of saying something they didn't. Don't you ever wonder why people on here make fun of you? If you haven't then you need to.Hallelujah!

[tholl]

If that is the case, that they use extra precautions for drug use in these races, without naming names -- isn't it funny how certain trainers have not done well in these races yet rack up huge percentages the rest of the time?

Frankel :eek: Surely not ;)

[andicap]

Frankel :eek: Surely not ;)

No names!!
;)

[CryingForTheHorses]

Geezus.....do you ever comprehend anything before you spout off? Didn't you say you were going away? I know people find you entertaining at times but it seems like you read about every third word someone says and then post some ridiculous response that accuses peple of saying something they didn't. Don't you ever wonder why people on here make fun of you? If you haven't then you need to.

Just to let ou know Breakage, I could give 2 sh-ts if people make fun of me.I hate people that "assume" others are cheating just because they are successful.

[cj]

My part time job is betting horses. As part of that job, I must try to determine who is cheating if I want to be successful. I'm sure I'm not 100% correct on who I think is cheating, but I know these guesses have aided my bottom line immensely.

Let's think about this for a minute. Who do cheating trainers hurt? Me as a bettor? Hardly. It probably even helps me to be honest. Tom, you, as a trainer? Absolutely. With all that sunlight in Florida, its amazing you could be so in the dark.

[cj]

Do they use detention barns or any extra type of drug monitoring for Breeders Cup or Triple crown races above and beyond the day-to-day races at that particular track?

Although this has been true in the past, word is security was very lax at Lone Star this year.

[tholl]

I hate people that "assume" others are cheating just because they are successful.

Nobodys cheating. That why they are going to have the detention barn in NY, and test every horse at Keeneland for milkshakes. They just want to prove it. :bang:

[Observer]

I'm not taking any sides here, but I have to admit I am uncomfortable with the idea that people conclude a trainer is cheating based on a solid win-percentage.

However .. though I've been accused if having my head in the sand here on this site .. I'm not dumb enough to think there is no cheating going on, either.

I've worked with horses enough to know the HUGE effect (positive & negative) different people can have on a horse .. sometimes in only a matter of hours. I'd never have believed that if I hadn't experienced it for myself.

[Tom]

Perhaps is the horsemen themselves cleaned up the backstretch by coming forward wtih evidence speculation would not be neccessary. Does anyone REALLY belive that Mullins crash and burn was becasue his horses were nervous in a new barn?

[Hosshead]

And speaking of nervous in a new (detention) barn. I was just thinking about that when I saw this thread. To get away from the trainers for a moment and back to the horses. How long do the horses have to stay there before a race? Same length of time at all (detention) tracks? How much of an impact will this have on a horses performance (the ones not on milkshakes), being that animals are creatures of habit, and this will (how much?) change their normal "routine".

I hope that all the different tracks can standardize the dentention process, so we at least get some kind of uniformity in the way they are "processed" before a race.
Milkshakes aside for a minute, will a "normal" horse run worse after spending x amount of time in the detention barn before the race?
Do we need a notation in the running line (d*) to show which races the horse was in the "D" Barn? Will the performance change be as evident (worse), as the change (for the better) when a lot of horses start running on lasix?
And when he goes to a Non-Detention Track, will he run better (not because of milkshakes)?
Maybe I should wait until all the pp's have been run through "D" Barns before getting a good line on a horse?
It may be good in cleaning up racing, but may create another variable for handicappers, that we'll just have to deal with.

Don't know how much this will actually effect the horse. Maybe not much, as they are usually amazingly consistent animal athletes. On the other hand they are individuals, -- like people.

[bobbyb]

Good Points Hosshead :ThmbUp:

I asked a local trainer the same question (on effect) - His answer was it depends on the horse's personality alot. Some Mares will sour, Some Stallions will become more agitated/aggressive - Geldings were tough for him - again personality and how the animal is/was cared for play a Major role. Older, more seasoned stock, who have shipped in the past will be the least affected. But then again, if they shipped in, they were probably shipped with time to aclimate. GREAT QUESTIONS to ponder HH.I think I'll be just watching the first couple of weeks.

bobbyb :sleeping:

[cj]

From DRF:

Richard Dutrow Jr., one of the leading trainers on this circuit, was nonplussed about the need for a detention barn.
"They keep coming up with new rules," Dutrow said. "They keep trying to get you beat. We'll follow the rules and hope for the best. They're just trying to screw up the horses, which is something they don't seem to care about - the horses."

Then in the next paragraph:

Dutrow said he would have no problem with prerace blood tests on horses.
Dutrow said he "gets aggravated" when his horses get beaten by horses trained by people he thinks "aren't playing the game the right way."

[delayjf]

I think its a great idea. I know Mullins has expressed his distain for the two dollar bettor, Imagine his distain for some bridge jumper who fills a suit against him for his losses after getting beat by a juiced up horse. I say make the owners / trainers responsible to the betters for their losses if they are found to be cheating

[Figman]

It seems to me that during the past fews years at Belmont Park, there were a myriad of two year old winners (especially Todd Pletcher 2 yr.olds) that were shipped from their Saratoga Training Center surroundings and put in strange Belmont Park surroundings for many hours on the day of their races. Didn't seem to deter these "excitable" youngsters.

[Storm Cadet]

that these horses think they know one stall from another...they all look the same...shitty wood and straw/hay all over...what do they think, they are moving them into the Waldorf Astoria? We are not talking Motel 6 compared to the Hilton now guys! Is Pletchers barn any better than others? Does he put little chocolate mints in their stalls before they go home for the night? They all SUCK...these stupid horses are moved all the time from one barn to another. When a horse races at the Big A who is normally stabled at Belmont, his butt is shipped that morning by van or truck...down the Belt Parkway 20 minutes to the track and stabled in some temporary cement barn area until his race, then shipped post race back to Belmont.

They is NO DIFFERENCE between horses stabled at the Big A vs Belmont shippers in their win %. Believe me, I checked it out when my horses were stabled in Contessa's and Violettes barn and shipped to Belmont on race day!

It's a load of bull that horses will be distraced by being put into retention/detention barns!

[CryingForTheHorses]

that these horses think they know one stall from another...they all look the same...shitty wood and straw/hay all over...what do they think, they are moving them into the Waldorf Astoria? We are not talking Motel 6 compared to the Hilton now guys! Is Pletchers barn any better than others? Does he put little chocolate mints in their stalls before they go home for the night? They all SUCK...these stupid horses are moved all the time from one barn to another. When a horse races at the Big A who is normally stabled at Belmont, his butt is shipped that morning by van or truck...down the Belt Parkway 20 minutes to the track and stabled in some temporary cement barn area until his race, then shipped post race back to Belmont.

They is NO DIFFERENCE between horses stabled at the Big A vs Belmont shippers in their win %. Believe me, I checked it out when my horses were stabled in Contessa's and Violettes barn and shipped to Belmont on race day!

It's a load of bull that horses will be distraced by being put into retention/detention barns!

Storm you post makes a lot of sense for a good horse!!
When you have cheap claimers it doesnt take a lot to unnerve them.Thats why they are cheap.Do you not think a "receiving" barn is different then a "Detention" Barn?.The difference being is that they stay overnite. Doesnt really bother the horse that goes to the recievig barn as they know they are there to race..Then BACK to their own stalls

[CryingForTheHorses]

My part time job is betting horses. As part of that job, I must try to determine who is cheating if I want to be successful. I'm sure I'm not 100% correct on who I think is cheating, but I know these guesses have aided my bottom line immensely.

Let's think about this for a minute. Who do cheating trainers hurt? Me as a bettor? Hardly. It probably even helps me to be honest. Tom, you, as a trainer? Absolutely. With all that sunlight in Florida, its amazing you could be so in the dark.

I guess i am in the dark!
Talked to a leading vet today about "milkshake" testing and asked him several questions. The bottom line was since this testing has began at Gulfstream..You are very right CJ..OH MY GOD. Flether, Shug kliseris and a few others that are always on the top are nowhere to be found in the standings.These are guys with the best horses that money can buy! Does this mean these ritzy horses are very weak or do we have bad horseman who do nothing but cheat?

[PaceAdvantage]

They all SUCK...these stupid horses are moved all the time from one barn to another.

It's a load of bull that horses will be distraced by being put into retention/detention barns!

I gotta tell you, I'm a little surprised to hear this coming from you.

[tholl]

I guess i am in the dark!
Talked to a leading vet today about "milkshake" testing and asked him several questions. The bottom line was since this testing has began at Gulfstream..You are very right CJ..OH MY GOD. Flether, Shug kliseris and a few others that are always on the top are nowhere to be found in the standings.These are guys with the best horses that money can buy! Does this mean these ritzy horses are very weak or do we have bad horseman who do nothing but cheat?


Persumably you mean PLETCHER, hes winning at his usual 25%, if you mean KLEARIS (Steve) he's won about 27% of his races and when was the last time Shug had a good GP meet ?

[Observer]

Different horses will react differently to moves. To generalize is not fair.

I dealt with a horse who would get dangerously anxious when he was moved from one farm to another .. one barn to another .. one stall to another .. it wasn't until he was given the opportunity to roll in his "new" stall (not a safe thing) .. that he felt like he was home .. but unless you let him roll in the new stall .. he remained dangerously anxious. Weird thing was .. if he was trailered to a farm for a one-day show (no moving in) .. he was a perfect gentleman who went about his business like a champ.

Horses know .. some just handle it better than others.

[Tom]

Horses do not naturally stand in a starting gate and reacct ot a bell. But eventually they learn. Those that do not perhaps need a better/smarter trainer.
Bottom line, this game is not about making life easier for trainers/owners, or even believing them or trusting them. If they can't accept that the game is about us, and our perception of the honesty of the game, then I guess thay have chosen the wrong field to be in. They could always train show horses. Maybe.

[Storm Cadet]

I gotta tell you, I'm a little surprised to hear this coming from you.


If you ever go into the majority at Belmont, most are in desparate need of major repairs...gutters missing...roofs in bad state...most need paint so bad... the wood in each stall and doors are a disgrace for our premier race track to be so bad...but there's no $$$ to pay for this major upgrade. It's really embassasing to bring clients and other family and friends there so see how bad the conditions are there. The Big A is all concrete barns, and they are no bargain to look at either.

[Dan Montilion]

Put the trainers and veterinarians in detention barns and bring the horses to them, sort of like a drive thru fast food joint. Unless these horses are cheating on their own this should solve the problem. And I could care less if the trainers or vets become nervous, hell there is always the gelding option.

Dan Montilion

[tholl]

Put the trainers and veterinarians in detention barns and bring the horses to them, sort of like a drive thru fast food joint. Unless these horses are cheating on their own this should solve the problem. And I could care less if the trainers or vets become nervous, hell there is always the gelding option.

Dan Montilion

WHAT

[tholl]

Put the trainers and veterinarians in detention barns and bring the horses to them, sort of like a drive thru fast food joint. Unless these horses are cheating on their own this should solve the problem. And I could care less if the trainers or vets become nervous, hell there is always the gelding option.

Dan Montilion

Sorry, what I meant was "PLEASE EXPLAIN" !!

[Dan Montilion]

My post was tongue in cheek. But again there is something to be said for the idea of putting the "alleged" trainers and vets under survailance as oppsed to the horses.

Dan Montilion

[PaceAdvantage]

If you ever go into the majority at Belmont, most are in desparate need of major repairs...gutters missing...roofs in bad state...most need paint so bad... the wood in each stall and doors are a disgrace for our premier race track to be so bad...but there's no $$$ to pay for this major upgrade. It's really embassasing to bring clients and other family and friends there so see how bad the conditions are there. The Big A is all concrete barns, and they are no bargain to look at either.

I'm not sure what this has to do with whether or not horses can be upset by a move to unfamiliar surroundings (like the first couple of trips to the new detention barns). But I will agree with you...I've been to the backside many a time at Aqueduct and Belmont....curb appeal is not high on the list of most of the barns. Even Saratoga isn't a bargain for some....but then again, they are barns, not the Plaza hotel.

[Storm Cadet]

Are horses who ship from AQU to Bel and the reverse DISTRACTED and do not perform well when they are put in new surroundings for a couple of hours pre race ???

Results do NOT show this so why are trainers worried that moving them a few hundred feet to another barn on race day makes a difference?

It's the SAME THING, taking a horse from his stall and moving him race day to another, be it at AQU by van or walking him to a detention stall on site at Belmont!!!!

[Observer]

In general .. maybe it wouldn't upset most horses .. most horses probably don't mind the trip from Aqueduct to Belmont, or Belmont to Aqueduct .. but to generalize as though any of these changes will not bother ANY of them is not a fair statement.

In my opinion, some horses just run better in their own backyard.

Horses are NOT dumb. They tend to be very misunderstood .. and one of the biggest mistakes is not treating them as individuals. Sure, you can get away with certain things done as a "group" .. but not everything.

[Valuist]

If you're a horse, which would you rather do/get? A trip to a different barn, or a painful shot of God knows what that may have a very positive very short term reaction but will do considerable damage over time?

[PaceAdvantage]

That's not the question, or the point. Detention barns are absolutely necessary, it seems, but that doesn't mean they don't have a negative effect on the horses in and of themselves.

[Storm Cadet]

How does moving a horse hamper his performance. Again, there is no proof out there and I've asked all my trainers (4) if there is any effect on the horse and they all say no...they see no difference when they ship from Bel to Big A to race or from AQU to Bel and get put in temporary pre race stalls???

Do the FLA trainers gripe and bitch when they train and stall at Palm Meadows and ship to Calder or Gulfstream, saying that it UPSETS the horses...has ANYONE HEARD a trainer use this line as an excuse? Do the Cali trainers who stall at Santa Anita bitch they have to ship to Holleywood and use the lame excuse that the horse didn't accomodate well?

I asked Rick Violette this very question and his reply was it makes no difference where they are boarded and where the race in regards to race day stalls!

I asked him because I wondered why he stalls at the Big A and didn't move his horses to Bel when it opened. I thought that the 20 minute drive and temp stalling would have a negative race effect but each has always said NO.

Contessa, Violette, Turner, Gyramardi, to name a few...the only athletes that I know train one place and play another are the JETS and they always stink! ;)

It's just another excuse by the cheaters not to comply with rules being put in to level the field.

[Tom Barrister]

I would think it's more than just being put in a different barn. The horse is also surrounded by different humans than the ones it's used to. A little like changing barns after a claim or sale. The horse will eventually get used to it, but that doesn't seem likely to happen overnight.

A longtime trainer once told me that horses are very habitat oriented and prefer surroundings they're familiar with. For example, if the barn a horse is stabled in catches fire, and the horse is led outside, it needs to be tied in place, or it might try to run back inside.

[PaceAdvantage]

How does moving a horse hamper his performance.

You're not putting the correct question to these trainer pals of yours. We are not talking about the daily grind of shipping from Bel to Aqu and pre-race stalls. We're talking about a completely NEW experience. One that the horse will surely get used to over time, but one that is indeed NEW.

New handlers, new procedures, new surroundings. Not every horse is going to take to this process from the beginning....being a conditioner yourself, you HAVE to know this to be true. There's no other way around this...horses are living, breathing creatures, and EXTREME creatures of HABIT.

I love how some folks can completely dismiss out of hand the fact that they are basing their decision on who is and who isn't cheating on INCOMPLETE information. Very incomplete info at that.

Now, I don't want anyone to take this post to mean that I personally don't approve of detention barns. I welcome them. But I'm not naive enough to think that some horses won't be affected negatively by this change in habit, at least in the beginning. Of course, most will believe that any negative performance by a horse coming from a detention barn automatically proves the trainer is a cheat. Life is never this simple.

[cj]

...Of course, most will believe that any negative performance by a horse coming from a detention barn automatically proves the trainer is a cheat. Life is never this simple.

You are absolutely right. If some supposed super trainer sends out a 3/5 that gets beat, so what, that one horse maybe was affected by the detention barn. Maybe he was not himself and the trainer was looking to dump him, who really knows.

What I want to see is overall performance. If trainer A normally wins at 35%, and is suddenly winning at 11%, for the first month of "detention," I'd be a fool not to assume that trainer was previously cheating. No way in the world this type of drop can be attributed to just new surroundings on race day.

Even this won't be enough. What I am interested in is these first off the claim horses that routinely jump up 10 or 20 Beyer points. First, will these these trainers still be claiming at the same rate. This is a huge one. If the trainer doesn't feel he can improve a horse, why claim? If Levine or Dutrow suddenly rarely claim a horse, I already have my answer. When they do, what is the result? This is where I'll be looking hard!

[Suff]

This is absolutely a Huge Curve Ball.

Horses are senstive and aware. A horse can act up simply by being removed from his Stall at an unusual time of day... Or by simply being placed in a different Stall with in the same barn...

I think Everybody knows that when a BIG HORSE ships into a new track.. They take him into the paddock the day before, or the morning of , the race , just to get the comfort level in a better spot...

Detention barns.. might, really hurt a few guys that operate a "Machine" type shedrow.

Everyday at the exact same time.. and I mean to the MINUTE, Horse are fed, walked and groomed. Nothing changes. Not the walking machine, Not the feed Bucket, not the groom, not the time, not the path to the track, not the Saddle, not the excersice rider.. it all stays as rigid as possible..

But other trainers do it differently... by choice or circumstance. If you only have 5 horses and You have to wait for the walking machine, or wait for an excersise rider who does work the "Big Guys" first.. that'll dictate what schedule you keep

[Valuist]

It seems to me that the potential negatives are not that severe. So they (the horses) are a little upset at first. I'm sure they'll get the hang of it eventually. Like I said in the earlier post, the alternative is the status quo, and if you want the sport cleaned up, that really isn't an option.

[Storm Cadet]

1st: My discussion is about PERFORMANCE in a race after being subjected to new surroundings...that's the trainers (Kieran McLoughlin) complaint against detention barns on race day...how it will effect PERFORMANCE.

AGAIN, there is NO PROOF that detention barns will effect performance of the horse, aside from the obvious chance of the cheaters doping up the horse race day!

I've given you the opinion of 4 NYRA trainers regarding what they think the performance factor of a horse that is placed in new environments on race day. One just happens to be a former TRIPLE CROWN trainer...

Please show me any proof that NYRA shippers who are put into new stalls race day and are taken from their usual routine are winning LESS than the home stabled horses. PLEASE, if there is any statistical data, then maybe we need to look at that trainer angle to increase our betting%.

I'm not saying that it's a little inconvenient, but home stabled horses DO NOT show higher win and ITM % than race day shippers whose routines are different! Or maybe I'm missing the reason for this topic...Kieran was not pleased because of the potential of race day performance, right?

[melman]

Storm, the harness horsemen at both Meadowlands and Woodbine/Mohawk have been using detention barns for quite a while now. Does not seemed to have caused an uproar over "the horses not liking it".

[tholl]

Everyday at the exact same time.. and I mean to the MINUTE, Horse are fed, walked and groomed. Nothing changes. Not the walking machine, Not the feed Bucket, not the groom, not the time, not the path to the track, not the Saddle, not the excersice rider.. it all stays as rigid as possible..


I agree, I've seen that. IMO thats a bad thing. To me about half the battle, maybe more, with t'breds is keeping them interested. They can go sour just as easily as they get sore. However in the US, at most tracks its hard to give them variety, since you are restricted by the facilities.
I grew up in England, worked for several successful traainers for a few years. We shipped to every race. Sometimes it was overnight, sometimes it was a day trip. Every horse shipped. I worked for an outfit that had about 100 horses and there were maybe two or three in the two years that I was there that had to have preferential treatment when shipping.
When I first came to US I worked for a few trainers based in KY and we would ship often, but it really was not a problem for them because the horses were all used to some variety. If they are used to some change then they not only stay fresh but they also settle quickly.
Just my opinion, in the majority of cases (theres always an exception) if the does not settle in a new stall is a result of poor horsemanship.

[Milleruszk]

Storm, the harness horsemen at both Meadowlands and Woodbine/Mohawk have been using detention barns for quite a while now. Does not seemed to have caused an uproar over "the horses not liking it".


Melman, you are correct. I have not heard of any trainers complaining about the detention barn at the Meadowlands. There are some interesting statistics on the Meadowlands website. If you look at the leading trainers overall win % vs their win % from the detention barn you will see what I mean.........the leading trainers are no longer the leading trainers.

[keilan]

New handlers, new procedures, new surroundings. Not every horse is going to take to this process from the beginning....being a conditioner yourself, you HAVE to know this to be true. There's no other way around this...horses are living, breathing creatures, and EXTREME creatures of HABIT.



Correct me if I’m wrong here but grooms – trainers – owners – vets – fierier (spelling) have access to their horses while in detention barns. The only difference is they are being monitored.

Storm I completely concur with most of what you have stated in this thread

[Suff]

Melman, you are correct. I have not heard of any trainers complaining about the detention barn at the Meadowlands. There are some interesting statistics on the Meadowlands website. If you look at the leading trainers overall win % vs their win % from the detention barn you will see what I mean.........the leading trainers are no longer the leading trainers.


StandardBreds do not have personality flaws and eccentricities that T-breds do. Two different species

[keilan]

I agree, I've seen that. IMO thats a bad thing. To me about half the battle, maybe more, with t'breds is keeping them interested. They can go sour just as easily as they get sore. However in the US, at most tracks its hard to give them variety, since you are restricted by the facilities.
I grew up in England, worked for several successful traainers for a few years. We shipped to every race. Sometimes it was overnight, sometimes it was a day trip. Every horse shipped. I worked for an outfit that had about 100 horses and there were maybe two or three in the two years that I was there that had to have preferential treatment when shipping.
When I first came to US I worked for a few trainers based in KY and we would ship often, but it really was not a problem for them because the horses were all used to some variety. If they are used to some change then they not only stay fresh but they also settle quickly.
Just my opinion, in the majority of cases (theres always an exception) if the does not settle in a new stall is a result of poor horsemanship.



I think your post is "spot on"

[PaceAdvantage]

I've given you the opinion of 4 NYRA trainers regarding what they think the performance factor of a horse that is placed in new environments on race day. One just happens to be a former TRIPLE CROWN trainer...

Just to play Devil's advocate some more, you're an owner, right SC? You're talking to trainers, (including your own) and asking them if they think new procedures are going to have a POTENTIAL NEGATIVE effect on their charges....

What the heck do you think they are going to say? "Yeah, I think your horse will be affected because your horse is very set in his ways...he's going to run like crap....." or "No, I don't think there will be a problem"

Once again, for the record, I am in favor of detention barns. And there is always the chance that these new procedures and environments WILL impact performance, whether or not the trainer had been cheating in the past.

Living, breathing creatures.....living, breathing creatures.....living, breathing creatures....say it again with me folks.....living, breathing creatures....

[CryingForTheHorses]

I agree, I've seen that. IMO thats a bad thing. To me about half the battle, maybe more, with t'breds is keeping them interested. They can go sour just as easily as they get sore. However in the US, at most tracks its hard to give them variety, since you are restricted by the facilities.
I grew up in England, worked for several successful traainers for a few years. We shipped to every race. Sometimes it was overnight, sometimes it was a day trip. Every horse shipped. I worked for an outfit that had about 100 horses and there were maybe two or three in the two years that I was there that had to have preferential treatment when shipping.
When I first came to US I worked for a few trainers based in KY and we would ship often, but it really was not a problem for them because the horses were all used to some variety. If they are used to some change then they not only stay fresh but they also settle quickly.
Just my opinion, in the majority of cases (theres always an exception) if the does not settle in a new stall is a result of poor horsemanship.

Great post but what does horsemanship have to do with a goofy horse.If you have done all you can and taken all the precautions.Some are affected. Yourself working with horses you do know how silly they can be.

[Lasix1]

Just to play Devil's advocate some more, you're an owner, right SC? You're talking to trainers, (including your own) and asking them if they think new procedures are going to have a POTENTIAL NEGATIVE effect on their charges....

What the heck do you think they are going to say? "Yeah, I think your horse will be affected because your horse is very set in his ways...he's going to run like crap....." or "No, I don't think there will be a problem"

Once again, for the record, I am in favor of detention barns. And there is always the chance that these new procedures and environments WILL impact performance, whether or not the trainer had been cheating in the past.

Living, breathing creatures.....living, breathing creatures.....living, breathing creatures....say it again with me folks.....living, breathing creatures....
Right on, PA. Thoroughbreds are sentient beings, not unfeeling machines, and if detention barns stop some of the abuse of these magnificient animals that make our game possible, I'm all for it. We should root out all the abuse we can, and this is a good start.

I can see a new earnings box line in the DRF already: Record "Before Detention Barns" and "After Detention Barns."

[Tom]

Given the potential effects on horses becasue they have to go through the detention barn, I still prefer that to the effects on other horses who will be running juiced or "shaked" or whatever. At least we will all be surprised together.

[Storm Cadet]

I did not ask them how the NEW changes would affect the horses...I asked them months before if day shipping has any effect on them. This was way before the current detention barn topic came up with NYRA. I questioned Contessa in 2002. Violette in 2003. Leah, Turner in 2004.

Contessa and Leah ship to the Meadowlands and Monmouth frequently and they have not seen any performance drop.

Check Beyers, CJ's figs , TG #'s,
DO YOU KNOW OF ANY PERFORMANCE DECLINE in shippers in NYRA tracks?

Let's see how detention works, crap some people do better after a day of detention ...ask some teachers ;)

[alysheba88]

I agree, I've seen that. IMO thats a bad thing. To me about half the battle, maybe more, with t'breds is keeping them interested. They can go sour just as easily as they get sore. However in the US, at most tracks its hard to give them variety, since you are restricted by the facilities.
I grew up in England, worked for several successful traainers for a few years. We shipped to every race. Sometimes it was overnight, sometimes it was a day trip. Every horse shipped. I worked for an outfit that had about 100 horses and there were maybe two or three in the two years that I was there that had to have preferential treatment when shipping.
When I first came to US I worked for a few trainers based in KY and we would ship often, but it really was not a problem for them because the horses were all used to some variety. If they are used to some change then they not only stay fresh but they also settle quickly.
Just my opinion, in the majority of cases (theres always an exception) if the does not settle in a new stall is a result of poor horsemanship.


Agree completley. As you know thats a big reason Michael Dickinson has been so successful here

[Figman]

Michael Dickinson....you've got to be kidding! Here's his NYRA-Saratoga for the past few years. He doesn't do very well at Saratoga. 1 for six years!
SAR_1999 12 0 4 2 0% 50%
SAR_2000 7 1 1 1 14% 43%
SAR_2001 7 0 1 3 0% 57%
SAR_2002 5 0 0 1 0% 20%
SAR_2003 3 0 0 0 0% 0%
SAR_2004 5 0 0 0 0% 0%

[alysheba88]

Michael Dickinson....you've got to be kidding! Here's his NYRA-Saratoga for the past few years. He doesn't do very well at Saratoga. 1 for six years!
SAR_1999 12 0 4 2 0% 50%
SAR_2000 7 1 1 1 14% 43%
SAR_2001 7 0 1 3 0% 57%
SAR_2002 5 0 0 1 0% 20%
SAR_2003 3 0 0 0 0% 0%
SAR_2004 5 0 0 0 0% 0%


Figman, I do not think its fair to judge whether someone is a good trainer or not by their Saratoga stats (which are extremely limited as you note above). You might want to check out his overall win percentage and also some of the tapes of Da Hoss.

[tholl]

Great post but what does horsemanship have to do with a goofy horse.If you have done all you can and taken all the precautions.Some are affected. Yourself working with horses you do know how silly they can be.

That's exactly why I said that there are always exceptions.

[PaceAdvantage]

Given the potential effects on horses becasue they have to go through the detention barn, I still prefer that to the effects on other horses who will be running juiced or "shaked" or whatever. At least we will all be surprised together.

I agree completely.

[Dr. Carter]

As a trainer the only objection that I have to detention barns are bottom line expenses. Trainers will have to hire more help which in turn will cost the owner more money. The track will certainly have a great deal of expense associated with this which in turn may lead to cutting costs somewhere else like track maintenance or barn repair.
However something does need to be done to try to level the playing field. At least NYRA is trying which is more than I can say for other tracks and is a lot more than NYRA did for years. Sure it will be an inconvienence and some horses may not adapt as well but as long as everyone is subjected to the same treatment, I don't have a problem with it.

[keilan]

Dr. Carter --why would trainers need to hire more help because of detention barns?

[Dr. Carter]

Because if your horse is in the first race and your groom has to go to the detention barn at 5:00 a.m.with the runner, who is going to take care of his other horses? He cant be at the detention barn and doing his work at the same time. And if you have 3 or 4 horses in the same day you have even bigger problems. What most barns will have to do is hire a guy that sits in the detention barn with all of a trainers horses every racing day. Bigger barns may need 2 or more in a case like Pletcher or Assmussen. If you give the guy $500 a week (it will become an important job) thats $26000 a year. For most trainers $26000 a year is a big deal so much of that cost will be passed off to the owner in higher day rates or flat rate charges for running a horse. Plus your assistant trainer will be away from your barn much of the afternoon if you are running and you will need someone competent to run your barn in his/her absence.

[keilan]

Why would the groom need to sit in the detention barn from 5:00 am until the horse runs, you've lost me. The detention barn in most cases will be located no more than a 2 iron from any of the barns I suspect. The groom has plenty of time on race day to be at either barn when required.

[CryingForTheHorses]

As a trainer the only objection that I have to detention barns are bottom line expenses. Trainers will have to hire more help which in turn will cost the owner more money. The track will certainly have a great deal of expense associated with this which in turn may lead to cutting costs somewhere else like track maintenance or barn repair.
However something does need to be done to try to level the playing field. At least NYRA is trying which is more than I can say for other tracks and is a lot more than NYRA did for years. Sure it will be an inconvienence and some horses may not adapt as well but as long as everyone is subjected to the same treatment, I don't have a problem with it.

I would think sir that it would be the trainers responiblty to pay these expenses and ALL others incured during the horse's stay and not the owner. If the trainer wasnt caught cheating, He wouldnt be in the detention barn.!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Why would the groom need to sit in the detention barn from 5:00 am until the horse runs, you've lost me. The detention barn in most cases will be located no more than a 2 iron from any of the barns I suspect. The groom has plenty of time on race day to be at either barn when required.


2 iron??

[tholl]

If the trainer wasnt caught cheating, He wouldnt be in the detention barn.!

McSchell, wake up ! EVERY HORSE (running) will be in the detention barn.

[CryingForTheHorses]

McSchell, wake up ! EVERY HORSE (running) will be in the detention barn.

WOW Thanks,I thought these were guys that were caught cheating. This is even better. Makes it a level playing field. Thanks.

[tholl]

WOW Thanks,I thought these were guys that were caught cheating. This is even better. Makes it a level playing field. Thanks.

In Cal its the guys that have been caught, but at the coming Belmont meet (which is what this thread is about) it will be all. And yes it will make a levilish playing field.

[keilan]

Mc --- 2 iron = couple hundred yards

[Dr. Carter]

Do you really think that a trainer is going to just walk em down to the detention barn and just leave em there without supervision? Do you think NYRA would let you? Have you ever been to Belmont? If you are in one of the back barns you are further away than a 2 iron unless you are Tiger Woods.

[keilan]

Dr. C - I didn't know thats why I asked the question, maybe they can set up cameras in each stall in the detention barn and send the feed back to the trainers barn.

[Suff]

Horses Do get care on race day as well.. Its not like they just sit there waiting to go... Horses get iced, walked, fed, groomed, tacked, medicated (legally) and sumplements on race day.

In my experience every horse gets walked 30 minutes in the AM on race day. usually bewteen 6-10 am. Trainers need that time to see if a Horse ate all his feed, what bowel activity took place overnight , is sore, has a tempature or cough, and to determine if the horse should be scratched for any reason...

Sick, sore, rain, fever?

[Tom]

Wouldn't the whole purpose of the detention barn be to keep it's connections AWAY from it on race day so they can't slip it a mickey?

Wow, I just thought of someting...Mayve H James Bond will get a horse and name it Vodka Martini, then when he goes to the D Barn to pick it up ha can tell the guard, "Bond...James Bond. Vodka Martini. (milk)shaken not stirred! :lol: