Another Neocon Rewarded for Incompetence

[Secretariat]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-bank16,1,3687321.story?coll=bal-home-headlines&ctrack=1&cset=true

[sq764]

Is this going to go on for 3 more years?

Do you feel better after posting this crap?

[Secretariat]

Is this going to go on for 3 more years?

Do you feel better after posting this crap?

Yes, I do feel better posting it because generally the news doesn't even cover it on TV. Wolfowitz was one of the prime PNAC leaders, and was one of the strongest advocates of going into Iraq based on WMD's. I know you don't like the word neocon, but Wolfowitz is not afraid of the term and has no problem with it. Why is that crap as you say? The appointment of the World Bank is a huge appointment that affects banking practices world wide. Why should an Assistant Secretary of Defense be appointed that position?
Here's some world-wide responses.

"Dave Timms, spokesman for London-based World Development Network, called it a "terrifying appointment" that highlighted a lack of democracy in major lending institutions. A European traditionally heads the International Monetary fund, while an American takes the helm at the World Bank.

"You can't have a situation where rich countries lecture developing countries about democracy and then aren't prepared to exercise democracy in this kind of appointment."

Sweden's minister of International Development Cooperation Carin Jaemtin, said she was "very skeptical" with the choice, telling Swedish news agency TT, she had hoped for a candidate who would carry out the policies of outgoing bank president James Wolfensohn.

Wolfowitz, 61, was among the most forceful of those in the Bush administration in arguing that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had predicted that Americans would be welcomed as liberators rather than occupiers once they toppled Saddam's government.

Wolfowitz' reputation as a hard-liner made it difficult to cheer his nomination to head the World Bank, said Nigerian newspaper columnist Pini Jason. He said Wolfowitz's selection could be a "bad omen" for the Third World.

"It is very likely that George Bush will want to link World Bank policies to his own vision of democratizing the world: Democracy according to the White House," said Jason, who writes for The Vanguard newspaper."

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm curious as to why you don't post the comments from the countries that support the Wolfowitz nomination. Do you feel those countries have opinions that aren't worthwhile to the rest of the world?

What governing body has the responsibility of confirming or rejecting Wolfowitz?

[Equineer]

I'm curious as to why you don't post the comments from the countries that support the Wolfowitz nomination. Do you feel those countries have opinions that aren't worthwhile to the rest of the world?

What governing body has the responsibility of confirming or rejecting Wolfowitz?The 23-member World Bank executive board.

By tradition, the head of the IMF has come from an EU nation, and the head of the World Bank from the U.S.

Wolfowitz needs the backing of the lender's executive board (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=axdPKdnCL4TQ&refer=us) to become the World Bank's 10th president, replacing James Wolfensohn, who plans to retire May 31.

European nations hold a combined 30 percent voting stake -- compared with the U.S.'s 17 percent -- enough to override the 85 percent majority needed to approve a candidate. By tradition, the U.S. selects the nominee for World Bank president, and its choices have never been rejected.

[Kreed]

How right you are Equineer, it's the traditional dance Europe does with the USA.
WE all got to keep hopeful that Paul W. will surprise us & do good. I think this
move is a signal -- with Iraq, Afghan, Lebanon, and others to follow --that
Bush & Team want to conquer the Middle East while conceding that China will
very soon be the Biggest, Baddest military & economic power, far surpassing
the USA, UNLESS the USA controls OIL in the Middle East. Look at the Alaska
drilling. Do you think that WE USA citizens will ever see a drop of that meager
oil production? No F'N way. Check out a map. At any rate, I hate all this
Bush & Team decisions -- yes almost every single one -- but I'm amazed that
no one with economic vision is speaking out. It's not Bush's moves in the
Middle East that worrys me (after all, the GAIN could be enormous) but he's
too eager to sell us out or maybe he just doesn't realize how SHORT-SIGHTED
his fiscal moves are. On a stupid move: GM, who very sadly has tanked, has
planned to rescue itself by 2007 when it rolls out a huge SUV fleet ... yeah,
just in time when oil is ~$100/barrell & ~$3.50/Gal. OH, HAPPY ST PAT'S.

[Secretariat]

Here is a link from the Defense Department on Wolfowitz's biography. Please show me where he has one shred of experience in banking or fiscal affairs to head the World Bank. I could see a Repub who was the head of Chase or Bank of America, but Wolfowitz? My God, Lefty has equivalent experience.

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/depsecdef_bio.html

[ljb]

Sec,
The word I hear is that Wolf was taking on too much heat. This is a sideways method of removing him from the defense department and saving face. That is, they don't have to admit their mistakes. Oh and I agree with you about Lefty. :D

[sq764]

Here is a link from the Defense Department on Wolfowitz's biography. Please show me where he has one shred of experience in banking or fiscal affairs to head the World Bank. I could see a Repub who was the head of Chase or Bank of America, but Wolfowitz? My God, Lefty has equivalent experience.

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/depsecdef_bio.html
Let's see, a degree in mathematics, tons of international relations experience, financial background (in raising money from allies for the military), involved in extensive planning and forecasting..

Yeah, what a freaking stiff. You guys are really hitting rock bottom aren't you?

[Bobby]

[QUOTE=sq764] financial background (in raising money from allies for the military), involved in extensive planning and forecasting..
[QUOTE]

Gimme a break, raising $ from other countries to pay for IRAQ???? :D :D

[sq764]

Gimme a break, raising $ from other countries to pay for IRAQ???? :D :D
Wasn't for Iraq. But why would you include facts when conjecture and make believe is so much easier.

[Secretariat]

Let's see, a degree in mathematics, tons of international relations experience, financial background (in raising money from allies for the military), involved in extensive planning and forecasting..

Yeah, what a freaking stiff. You guys are really hitting rock bottom aren't you?

You are kidding me right? A Bachelors Degree in Mathmatics qualfies him to be head of the World Bank? And if "raising money from the allies" to help pay for Iraq is his success meausure, you had better keep looking. Extensive planning and forcasting? Do you mean his "assurances" of the WMD's in Iraq?

SQ, in all of the United States, this is the man Bush nominates to head the World Bank? A person who has no academic credits in banking, no practical experience in banking, no leadership positions in banking, but what the heck,...make him Head of the Workd Bank. You have got to be kidding.

[sq764]

You are kidding me right? A Bachelors Degree in Mathmatics qualfies him to be head of the World Bank? And if "raising money from the allies" to help pay for Iraq is his success meausure, you had better keep looking. Extensive planning and forcasting? Do you mean his "assurances" of the WMD's in Iraq?

SQ, in all of the United States, this is the man Bush nominates to head the World Bank? A person who has no academic credits in banking, no practical experience in banking, no leadership positions in banking, but what the heck,...make him Head of the Workd Bank. You have got to be kidding.
John Kerry came frightfully close to being president of the United States.. Let's not question anyone's qualifications..

[PaceAdvantage]

SQ, in all of the United States, this is the man Bush nominates to head the World Bank? A person who has no academic credits in banking, no practical experience in banking, no leadership positions in banking, but what the heck,...make him Head of the Workd Bank. You have got to be kidding.

I have a good idea. Let's put the credentials of the last couple of US-nominated heads of the World Bank. How do they stack up against Wolfowitz? How does the outgoing guy stack up? How about the guy before him, and so on, and so on.

Is this more of a figurehead position, or does the head of the World Bank actually get his hands dirty on a daily basis?

The reason I ask these obvious questions, is that I don't know much about what the head of the World Bank does, so I defer to those who must have this knowledge. And the reason I assume there are those on this board who have this knowledge, is because I see those on this board bashing Wolfowitz's resume. In order to bash his resume, you must know something about the folks who came before him. So, what's the story Jerry?

(PS, I am in no way defending Bush's nomination at this point in time....Consider me an objective bystander asking an obvious question or two....)

[Secretariat]

I have a good idea. Let's put the credentials of the last couple of US-nominated heads of the World Bank. How do they stack up against Wolfowitz? How does the outgoing guy stack up? How about the guy before him, and so on, and so on.

Is this more of a figurehead position, or does the head of the World Bank actually get his hands dirty on a daily basis?

The reason I ask these obvious questions, is that I don't know much about what the head of the World Bank does, so I defer to those who must have this knowledge. And the reason I assume there are those on this board who have this knowledge, is because I see those on this board bashing Wolfowitz's resume. In order to bash his resume, you must know something about the folks who came before him. So, what's the story Jerry?

(PS, I am in no way defending Bush's nomination at this point in time....Consider me an objective bystander asking an obvious question or two....)


Good question PA,

The last president James Wolfensohn established his “career as an international investment banker”

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/ORGANIZATION/PRESIDENTEXTERNAL/0%2C%2CcontentMDK:20061985~menuPK:232053~pagePK:13 9877~piPK:199692~theSitePK:227585%2C00.html

Preston who preceded him and died was also a banker. Here are the previous Presidents before:

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/ORGANIZATION/PRESIDENTEXTERNAL/0,,contentMDK:20083965~menuPK:232070~pagePK:139877 ~piPK:199692~theSitePK:227585,00.html

[Tom]

Accodring to Randi Rhodes, the WB is a strong-arm collection agency that is stealing resources from poor nations as payments for debts, to distribute to the neo-cons, rahter than break thumbs like a self-respecting bookie would do.:eek:


Hehehe...she's back from her surgery....didn't realize it was a lobotamy!
( Oh, that long 2 hours from 6:00pm when Hannity goes off the air to 8:00pm when Savage comes on.....all there is on is Air America and sports talk. )

[sq764]

Good question PA,

The last president James Wolfensohn established his “career as an international investment banker”

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/ORGANIZATION/PRESIDENTEXTERNAL/0%2C%2CcontentMDK:20061985~menuPK:232053~pagePK:13 9877~piPK:199692~theSitePK:227585%2C00.html

Preston who preceded him and died was also a banker. Here are the previous Presidents before:

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/ORGANIZATION/PRESIDENTEXTERNAL/0,,contentMDK:20083965~menuPK:232070~pagePK:139877 ~piPK:199692~theSitePK:227585,00.html

What I find quite odd is that Bush-hater extraordinair Joe Biden supports Wolfowitz 100%.. And went on further to say it was an 'excellent' choice by Bush.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Who were you expecting, Bono?
Don't you know D>C> is short for Dis Competence- regardless of which party is in power? LOL

[Lefty]

sec, I had to turn it down. Busy with the horses don'tcha know...

[PaceAdvantage]

At first blush, it would seem Wolfowitz's credentials are a bit weak in the financial and banking sector. His expertise is squarely in the realm of international politics / military.

However, looking at what the World Bank's primary mission is in life, and especially, that of its leader, it seems Mr. Wolfowitz may be the man for the job, with his extensive international relations background.

It is a development Bank which provides loans, policy advice, technical assistance and knowledge sharing services to low and middle income countries to reduce poverty. The Bank promotes growth to create jobs and to empower poor people to take advantage of these opportunities .....

James D. Wolfensohn became the ninth president of the World Bank Group on June 1, 1995. He has traveled to more than 100 countries to gain first hand knowledge of the challenges facing the World Bank's member countries.
From this I glean that the leader of the World Bank has to be less of a banker, and more of a fact finding diplomat with vast knowledge and understanding of many different geo-political arenas. This hits Wolfowitz smack in the face....his resume is full of stuff like this....

Before being posted to Indonesia, Wolfowitz served two years as head of the State Department’s Policy Planning Office and three-and-a-half years as Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, working with the leaders of more than 20 countries....

From 1994-2001, he served as Dean and Professor of International Relations at the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) of The Johns Hopkins University.

[linrom1]

The role of the World bank is to indebt those that are forced to borrow from it. It is controlled by the hypocritical European Nations, and does what its member nations' policy dictate. The appointment of Wolfowitz ony serves to punish Europeans for opposing Bush and co.

[hcap]

Qualifications?

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/img/2005/dancart2329.jpg

[sq764]

What amazes me is that you guys (Sec, LJB, Hcap) are just waiting to blast Bush's every more. It's kind of sad when you think about it.

I will be the first to tell you that I don't agree with everything he's done, and will continue to disagree with some of his decisions.. But what exactly are you accomplishing by lambasting every move he makes? Is this some sort of monkey off your back by posting these things? You trying to convince the Republicans that he's terrible? You still sore from losing again? What is it exactly?

[JustRalph]

HCAP
You don't know what you are talking about. Several high ranking banking officials have said that he would be a perfect candidate if "he wasn't part of the Iraq situation" but these neysayers are just anti-bush types.

In fact Mara Liason ( an NPR liberal) said as much on Fox News last night. Bloomberg news has an article on it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=ajMpoFzhHfhk&refer=top_world_news

or here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1530144,00.html

I think Bush is maybe going to instruct him to tie world bank money to democratic reform.......and how it is accepted by those countries who want money........interesting theory.........it is called the Bush Doctrine.........you might read about it in the history books someday.........

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14590-2005Mar7.html

http://slate.msn.com/id/2114260/

[Lefty]

hcap, the cartoon you posted asks "what do I know about running a war?
Here's my question: What does the artist of the cartoon know about running a war? What do you know about running a war? Hmmm? Seems Wolfowitz and the Pres haven't done so badly. Elections in 2 countries that never had had free and open elections. Why can't you dems/libs give the Repubs credit for that? Even the liberal NY Times starting to think the Pres and Co. was right.

lin, why do you libs care so much about the europeons? Is it asking too much that you care about this country, just a little? I don't think punishing Europe was the Pres' motive but if it was, so what?

[doophus]

With Condi at the State Dept, Bolton at the UN and Wolf.....at the WB; gosh, this could be fun! :jump: :jump:

[Lefty]

I got an e-mail that suff had responded and i read his response and wanted to ask his point; yet I don't see his post. Suff, did you delete your post?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, he did delete his post...

[Secretariat]

What I find quite odd is that Bush-hater extraordinair Joe Biden supports Wolfowitz 100%.. And went on further to say it was an 'excellent' choice by Bush.

I imagine Biden is happy he's getting him out of the Defense Department.

[Secretariat]

HCAP
I think Bush is maybe going to instruct him to tie world bank money to democratic reform.......and how it is accepted by those countries who want money........interesting theory.........it is called the Bush Doctrine.........you might read about it in the history books someday.........



Of course he's going to do that. That is part of the neocon philosophy if you read my link from the Christian Science Monitor earlier. Their goal is "global democracy" no matter what the cost. Nation building exercises by blackmailing poorer countries to either become democracies or money will not be loaned to them. btw..This is not Bush Doctrine but has been around since the early 60's.

[Secretariat]

sec, I had to turn it down. Busy with the horses don'tcha know...

That's too bad Lefty. If it was a democratic election between you and Wolfie, you'd have got my vote. You're at least an honest man.

[Lefty]

sec, what's wrong with global democracy? Sounds like a good thing to me. Just think, no more dictators killing and starving their people. Man, I just don't get you.

[Secretariat]

At first blush, it would seem Wolfowitz's credentials are a bit weak in the financial and banking sector. YOU THINK SO?


His expertise is squarely in the realm of international politics / military.

However, looking at what the World Bank's primary mission is in life, and especially, that of its leader, it seems Mr. Wolfowitz may be the man for the job, with his extensive international relations background.

[/b][/i]
From this I glean that the leader of the World Bank has to be less of a banker, and more of a fact finding diplomat with vast knowledge and understanding of many different geo-political arenas. This hits Wolfowitz smack in the face....his resume is full of stuff like this....


This is what it says on the World Bank's mission site:

"The World Bank Group’s mission is to fight poverty and improve the living standards of people in the developing world. It is a development Bank which provides loans, policy advice, technical assistance and knowledge sharing services to low and middle income countries to reduce poverty. The Bank promotes growth to create jobs and to empower poor people to take advantage of these opportunities."

Do you honestly beleive that Paul Wolfowitz, a man with no real fiscal or banking experience, a man who was dead wrong on his Iraqi assessments, and a man who has polarized the EU is the "best?" choice for the job? You have got to be kidding. Wolfowitz fight poverty? Colin Powell who has no banking experience would at least bring a credibilty to the position. Even JR has tagged it exactly as Woflowitz functioning as a Yes man to implement what JR calls the "Bush Doctrine" which is the Neocon doctrine of global democracy no matter what the cost.

And just to show SQ I am not partisan on it, the choice of Democrat Robert McNamara to head the World Bank was an absurd choice. This one is just as bad if not worse.

[Secretariat]

sec, what's wrong with global democracy? Sounds like a good thing to me. Just think, no more dictators killing and starving their people. Man, I just don't get you.

The US forcing or blackmailing global democracy upon countries is a form of imperialism Lefty.

You really need to study up on Neocons. Here's a primer:

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html

[Secretariat]

What amazes me is that you guys (Sec, LJB, Hcap) are just waiting to blast Bush's every more. It's kind of sad when you think about it.

I will be the first to tell you that I don't agree with everything he's done, and will continue to disagree with some of his decisions.. But what exactly are you accomplishing by lambasting every move he makes? Is this some sort of monkey off your back by posting these things? You trying to convince the Republicans that he's terrible? You still sore from losing again? What is it exactly?

First off I don't blast every Bush decision or we'd need a whole new area for that. But significant, unbelivable ones like this which the press doesn't thoroughly cover deserve to be aired. I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. However, there are posters like HCAP, LJB, and 46 who enjoy reading my posts and I enjoy theirs. The fact that they bother you only gives you more reason to put me on ignore. Heed Tom's advice if they trouble you so much.

[sq764]

I imagine Biden is happy he's getting him out of the Defense Department.
Must be the same reason he ripped Kerry today too.. Err, was it..

[sq764]

That's too bad Lefty. If it was a democratic election between you and Wolfie, you'd have got my vote. You're at least an honest man.
Did you just mention 'Democrat', 'election' and 'Honest' in the same sentence?

Wow, you'll believe anything, won't you

[sq764]

First off I don't blast every Bush decision or we'd need a whole new area for that. But significant, unbelivable ones like this which the press doesn't thoroughly cover deserve to be aired. I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. However, there are posters like HCAP, LJB, and 46 who enjoy reading my posts and I enjoy theirs. The fact that they bother you only gives you more reason to put me on ignore. Heed Tom's advice if they trouble you so much.
WHere did I say that they bother or trouble me? I simply said it amazes me..

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you honestly beleive that Paul Wolfowitz, a man with no real fiscal or banking experience, a man who was dead wrong on his Iraqi assessments, and a man who has polarized the EU is the "best?"

I never said he was the "best" man for the job. I said he might be the man for the job. Note the exclusion of the word best!

I simply believe he has more qualifications for the job then you are giving him credit for.

People on here call me biased...however, your bias is now showing because you can't recognize a man with tremendous international relations experience, which is vital to the job of leading the World Bank.

[Lefty]

sec, don't need to read up on neocons or anything else to know how I feel and think. And I think democracy is a good thing. Watching the Iraquis vote looked to me like they feel it's a good thing too. Hey, I bet every person enslaved by some dictator would think it a good thing too.

[Secretariat]

sec, don't need to read up on neocons or anything else to know how I feel and think. And I think democracy is a good thing. Watching the Iraquis vote looked to me like they feel it's a good thing too. Hey, I bet every person enslaved by some dictator would think it a good thing too.

I didn't say you don't know how you think. I was merely offering some reading to better understand Wolfowitz's views.

Of course democracy is a good thing, but to mandate it on nations via war or to blackmail countries who don't convert to it via the withholding of loans is a bad thing.

Bush has said "at any cost". Well, we are already seeing the financial costs on enforcing one democracy which is still struggling. I see also that Afghanistan has postponed its elections to the Fall. I have no problem with that, I'm just saying we are footing the bill for this global democracy neocon doctrine. Our deficits are ballooning, and the cost of the iraq war is paid for via supplementals so the cost keeps rising. This is one democracy which has weakened the dollar internationally, and we're still not done, with the Ukraine pulling out, and now Italy pulling out leaving primarily English speaking nations having to secure a democracy (in which over a third of the people did not participate who basicaly are doing most of the fighting) in an arabic speaking country. I guess where we differ Lefty is not that either of us doesn't like democracy. We differ in how much America should spend to spread democracy globally. You advocate a bankrupting of the country for the purpose, I beleive in spending the money here. Since there was no iraq tie to the 911 War on Terror or the WMD claim could not be verified we in essence are left with the nation building. And the neocon philosophy is that the world is safer with global democracy. Current political neocon leaders don't beleive that we should worry about any fiscal costs in this regard, and think it is anethama to tax anyone to pay for it, or have any of their family members actually fight for it directly. I guess I just don't agree with that.

[ljb]

sec, what's wrong with global democracy? Sounds like a good thing to me. Just think, no more dictators killing and starving their people. Man, I just don't get you.
Ah yes Lefty, the "new world order". Perhaps we could have some form of governmental group that would be used to control this "global democracy". You know something that would make sure all entities remain democracys. We could call it the United Democracys what do you think Lefty?

[Secretariat]

I never said he was the "best" man for the job. I said he might be the man for the job. Note the exclusion of the word best!

I simply believe he has more qualifications for the job then you are giving him credit for.

People on here call me biased...however, your bias is now showing because you can't recognize a man with tremendous international relations experience, which is vital to the job of leading the World Bank.

Bias? I just criticized the appointment of McNamara (a Dem) to the World Bank by Dem. Presidents. One coudl argue that McNamara was more qualified than Wolfowitz. He was not the Asst. Secy. fo Defense. He was the Secy of Defense. He was familar with business via his associations with Ford and also had international relations experience. McNamara was a terrible appointment, not like Wolfensohn who is just leaving. Wolfowitz has no respect even with the World Bank employees. He is already fighting an up hill battle. Why not appoint a Republican banker? Why such a divisive appointment?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1441350,00.html

[Lefty]

sec, democracy is a good thing but you just don't want to pay for it or fight for it, is that it? If we hadn't went to Iraq the terror belt would be vast and wide. The Pres did the right thhig and even lib newspapers starting to reluctantly agree.
lbj, you once again bring nothing to the argument but silly hypotheticals. Democracy is a good thing and when these dictators harbor terrorists and threaten us and the rest of the world, strong leaders need to step forth. We have that leader.

[PaceAdvantage]

He is already fighting an up hill battle. Why not appoint a Republican banker? Why such a divisive appointment?

Maybe Bush is having a little fun at your expense. Maybe he doesn't care to appease anyone. Maybe he thinks Wolfowitz is the best man for the job, and he doesn't care if his choice will piss some people off. Maybe he's flipping off his many critic's with this choice. Who knows? There could be a thousand reasons why he chose Wolfowitz.

What do you think of Biden's opinion of the appointment of Wolfowitz? Why do you think he likes the choice?

[JustRalph]

Maybe Bush is having a little fun at your expense. Maybe he doesn't care to appease anyone. Maybe he thinks Wolfowitz is the best man for the job, and he doesn't care if his choice will piss some people off. Maybe he's flipping off his many critic's with this choice. Who knows? There could be a thousand reasons why he chose Wolfowitz.

I like the option of .............all of the above.............

[Secretariat]

Maybe Bush is having a little fun at your expense. Maybe he doesn't care to appease anyone. Maybe he thinks Wolfowitz is the best man for the job, and he doesn't care if his choice will piss some people off. Maybe he's flipping off his many critic's with this choice. Who knows? There could be a thousand reasons why he chose Wolfowitz.

What do you think of Biden's opinion of the appointment of Wolfowitz? Why do you think he likes the choice?

Whatever his reasons, it is a very poor appointment when the employees of the World Bank don't even want to work with the guy.

As to Joe Biden, his motivations are easy to understand, he doesn't want to deal with Wolfie anymore. Here's a heated exchange between Wolfie and him in 2003.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/30/MN184476.DTL

[Secretariat]

sec, democracy is a good thing but you just don't want to pay for it or fight for it, is that it? If we hadn't went to Iraq the terror belt would be vast and wide. The Pres did the right thhig and even lib newspapers starting to reluctantly agree.
lbj, you once again bring nothing to the argument but silly hypotheticals. Democracy is a good thing and when these dictators harbor terrorists and threaten us and the rest of the world, strong leaders need to step forth. We have that leader.

Lefty, I also think sending a spaceship to Pluto would be an amazing thing, feeding everyone in the world would be a good thing, eradicating AIDS would be a good thing, handing out free turkeys at Thanksgiving would be a good thing, but let's face it Lefty, Mr. Bush is bankrupting the nation. The deficits according to the CBO just keep going up and up, and Bush is committed to not accumulating more revenue via taxes. So how do you propose to pay for all these global democracy wars?

[Lefty]

sec, completely non-analagous. Sending spaceships to Pluto not the same thing as fighting terrorism and the freedom of human beings.

[Tom]

Spaceships to Pluto????? Are the WMD there?? Yikes!:bang:

[sq764]

Whatever his reasons, it is a very poor appointment when the employees of the World Bank don't even want to work with the guy.

As to Joe Biden, his motivations are easy to understand, he doesn't want to deal with Wolfie anymore. Here's a heated exchange between Wolfie and him in 2003.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/30/MN184476.DTL
Joe Biden has gone off his rocker the past 2 weeks.. must not be getting his 14 rounds of golf in per week..

[Secretariat]

sec, completely non-analagous. Sending spaceships to Pluto not the same thing as fighting terrorism and the freedom of human beings.

My point Lefty is "what is a good thing" has costs associated with it. And global democracy has signficant costs. I'm not going to rehash the arguments about the fact it was al Quada whcih hit the WTC's on 911 and not Iraq. If in fact Iraq had been directly associated with the co-ordination of 911 and Iraqi's had been aboard those planes rather than Saudis, then you might have a point associating them with the War on Terror. In fact the reason that Congress approved the authorization for war ewas based on WMD's and the "imminent" threat to the USA. If the reason for war had been sent to Congress as "spreading demcroacy", there is no way Congress would have authorized the money. It was a deception such as the Niger claim which has cost the US deeply from an economic standpoint, and a divisive cost in terms of foreigh relations. But my major concern is the economic cost to our country. And this is one country. Imagine an invasion of Iran, and Syria. It might feel like we are doing something to spread democracy globally, but can we afford it. Bush would say, "Whatever it takes"...That means further and further deficits which threaten the stability of the country much more than Iraq ever did. Global democracy is a nice dream "like going to Pluto", but it is going to send a big hole into the economy and perhaps the future stabiltiy of our nation.

[Secretariat]

American Nobel Laureate Stiglitz on Wolfowitz appointment:

http://money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/03/20/cnwbank20.xml

An excerpt:

"Stiglitz said Wolfowitz was unsuitable in part because the US war in Iraq remains profoundly unpopular in many of the territories where the World Bank works. But he also complained that Wolfowitz has the wrong skills.

"He has no training or experience in economic development or financial markets," Stiglitz said. The Bank was the most important institution addressing poverty, he said. "We need someone in charge who knows. . . development.""

[Lefty]

sec, never gonna change your mind but some things worth fighting and paying for. Freedom is such a thing.

[Secretariat]

sec, never gonna change your mind but some things worth fighting and paying for. Freedom is such a thing.

I'm in total agreement when it comes to our freedom Lefty, just don't beleive in paying for freedom in other countries if it bankrupts our own.

[PaceAdvantage]

As to Joe Biden, his motivations are easy to understand, he doesn't want to deal with Wolfie anymore. Here's a heated exchange between Wolfie and him in 2003.

WOW. Is Joe Biden that shortsighted that he would allow an underqualified person to be nominated to the WORLD BANK solely for personal reasons?

Unreal.

[Lefty]

sec, why don't you get that we invaded Iraq to secure our own freedoms? A democracy freed them and helps keep us free as it puts a gap in the terrorist belt.

[sq764]

American Nobel Laureate Stiglitz on Wolfowitz appointment:

http://money.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/03/20/cnwbank20.xml

An excerpt:

"Stiglitz said Wolfowitz was unsuitable in part because the US war in Iraq remains profoundly unpopular in many of the territories where the World Bank works. But he also complained that Wolfowitz has the wrong skills.

"He has no training or experience in economic development or financial markets," Stiglitz said. The Bank was the most important institution addressing poverty, he said. "We need someone in charge who knows. . . development.""
Sounds like Germany doesn't have the same views as you

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005032113390002785691&dt=20050321133900&w=RTR&coview=

[Secretariat]

WOW. Is Joe Biden that shortsighted that he would allow an underqualified person to be nominated to the WORLD BANK solely for personal reasons?

Unreal.

First of all Joe Biden has nothing to do with "allowing" anyone to be nominated to the World Bank. My guess is he sees it as another Bush decision who wants Wolfie somewhere, and since it removes Wolfie from the Defense Deaprtment he views that as a good thing.

Frankly, I could care less what Biden wants. Did you read what Stiglitz said..someone who is very aware of the issues regarding the World Bank? Did you read what the employees of the World Bank wrote? I notice you made no comment on those which are most impacted by Bush's atrocious decision to reward ineptitude.

[Secretariat]

sec, why don't you get that we invaded Iraq to secure our own freedoms? A democracy freed them and helps keep us free as it puts a gap in the terrorist belt.

Lefty,

I know you beleive this. We strongly disagree on this. Bin Laden is still at large as are his associates. A vote in Iraq by Shia and Kurds does not equate to "securing our own freedoms". As to putting a "gap in the terrorist gap". Not according to our CIA or Homeland Security who say we are still very susceptible to a terrorist attack. Terorrists who threatened the US on 911 were primarily Saudis, not Iraqis. You still don't seem to comprehend this.

[Secretariat]

Sounds like Germany doesn't have the same views as you

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005032113390002785691&dt=20050321133900&w=RTR&coview=

Your link says "story not found." I did find this story on the German Prime Minister saying he wouldn't "block" Wolfowitz. That sounds like a ringing endorsement.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050321/bs_afp/worldbankuswolfowitz_050321160728

It is interesting you cite Germany when they say they won't "block" Wolfowitz, but were hyper-critical when they failed to support the Bush invasion of Iraq. I guess you're selective. In other words when they agree with Bush OK, but if they disagree they're idiots. Do you honestly support Wolfowitz in this position despite the protests of the employees of the World Bank?

I personally beleive the World Bank Employees and Nobel Laureate Stiglitz who worked at the World Bank have a far better insight into the function and purposes of the World Bank than yourself. The truth is that Germany is trying to find a way to continue an alliance with America. Bush unfortunately keeps making it more difficult with appointing one of the most divisive and incompetent of neocons to this prestigious position. Maybe Woflie thinks the WMD's might be at the World Bank who knows?

[Secretariat]

sec, why don't you get that we invaded Iraq to secure our own freedoms? A democracy freed them and helps keep us free as it puts a gap in the terrorist belt.

btw Lefty, at the Arab League, it doesn't seem that they wee much concerned about promoting democracy or our interests since they stil lfail to recognize Israel and

"Syrian Deputy Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem said the leaders were expected to express support for Syria "in the face of American pressures." Syria's troop withdrawal from Lebanon was not on the summit agenda. Arab nations have pressed Damascus to leave its neighbor.

And despite pressure from Washington for democratic reform, the summit will largely avoid the issue. Instead, the leaders are focusing on reforming the Arab League by endorsing a plan to set up an "Arab parliament" — an unelected consultative body for the league. "

So much for the Arab league embracing democracy.

[sq764]

I personally beleive the World Bank Employees and Nobel Laureate Stiglitz who worked at the World Bank have a far better insight into the function and purposes of the World Bank than yourself.

Don't you think they have a better insight into the functions and purposes than all of us? Does that prevent us from having an opinion on the subject?

[PaceAdvantage]

First of all Joe Biden has nothing to do with "allowing" anyone to be nominated to the World Bank.

OK then, I mistated....should not have used the word "allowing."

Since we AREN'T nitpicking words here, it's good to hear you say Joe Biden's opinion is worthless.

I'll remember that next time he opens his mouth.

[ljb]

I'd like to jump in here with a couple of things regarding Wolfowitz. One he told a Senate panel it would take less troops in Iran once Saddam was overthrown. (WRONG) and two he told a senate panel Iran would pay for their own reconstruction with their oil revenues. (Wrong again)
By the way where is the oil and revenue from Iran's oil fields going?

[Equineer]

LJB,

LOL - Iran? :)

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Bush will still have Iraq on his plate for many moons, and he will probably want to pass reductions to SS benefits, make some concessions to China for lip service vis-a-vis North Korea, launch a statehood initiative for Mexico, and reinstate a military draft before he invades Iran. :)

[sq764]

LJB,

LOL - Iran? :)

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Bush will still have Iraq on his plate for many moons, and he will probably want to pass reductions to SS benefits, make some concessions to China for lip service vis-a-vis North Korea, launch a statehood initiative for Mexico, and reinstate a military draft before he invades Iran. :)
Not sure what's worse.. This thinking or Clinton's thinking of letting terrorists bomb the shit out of our ships and embassies and sit back and just watch..

They both have their problems..

[ljb]

Eq,
Sorry about the "freudian" slip. I posted the note during my sleepness bout with insommnia. Please substitute Iraq for Iran in my late night/ early morning post. :)

[thoroughbred]

Assuming Mr. Wolfowitz is confirmed as president by World Bank leaders, he'll bring impressive credentials and strong opinions. He's experienced in Third World development issues, having been ambassador to Indonesia and assistant secretary of state for East Asia. He's also a champion of democracy and free markets as indispensable weapons in the fight to eradicate poverty. What Mr. Bush admires is his fearlessness and willingness to take on the status quo. The president wants results at the World Bank, a senior aide said. Mr. Bush thinks there has been too much stress on process, not enough on results. "Process trumps results" at the World Bank, the aide said. The yardsticks for success are out of whack. The only one that matters, in Mr. Bush's view, is how much poverty has been reduced. "Wolfowitz will bring a sharp focus to results," the aide said. That's his agenda.

[ljb]

And of course the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal is completely unbiased. (NOT)
Wolfowitz is a danger in his current position, could his incompetence do as much damage in the world bank?

[Kreed]

He's smart enough for sure, but he has ZERO credentials in money matters,
but I don't think thats pertinent here. His presence will be a STRONG signal
that we have an inside track on what is happening POLITICALLY in many
nations. As far as "eradicating poverty" --LOL. That is VERY VERY unlikely.
As unlikely as drawing 3 Royal Flushes in a one hour poker game. The world's
poverty gap will widen not lessen --- OTOH, we should help eliminate disease
and suffering -- then improve education -- and that's doable. PS: I'm NOT
talking about most of Africa which is almost totally lost to every scourge.
Sadly, that continent could be blow-torched & its loss would be ~zero.
A fresh start would improve its outlook.

[PaceAdvantage]

And of course the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal is completely unbiased. (NOT)

The same can be said for most (if not all) of your sources. I guess we have a stalemate.

[Secretariat]

[QUOTE=Kreed]He's smart enough for sure, but he has ZERO credentials in money matters,
but I don't think thats pertinent here. /QUOTE]


Well, i'm not so sure he's smart for sure. Remember he was the one who said we needed to fear Saddam Hussein more than a fellow named Bin Laden a few months before 911. Additionally, he was positive Iraq had WMD's and he knew where they were.

Having zero credentials is quite pertinent as well as his lack in the other areas you list. I thought Rice was a terrible appointment, but this is so political appointing someone who is already set to create divisiveness, and someone who has no basic credentials for the position. I would have supported a Republican candidate who has banking experience and would not be a catalyst for anger worldwide. Why not Stiglitz as the appointee? He would be lauded worldwide. Instead, Bush once again shows his blatant partisanship in appointing more of the neocon cablal. Tragic but predictable. You do have to laugh when he says he likes to reach across the table and get people to work with him. He's done nothing of the sort throughout his entire adminstration, and is without question the worst and most partisan President that has ever served in the office.

[Kreed]

hehe ... I agree with you ~102%. This Pres is a zealot &/or behaves like one
perfectly, in order to make his largely fellow zealots orgasmic. lol ... in a way,
since many of his zealot-following are mentally deprived, all he has to do is
appear devoted to their cause, but wonder 43 ISN'T JUST VERY CLEVER?

[Kreed]

43 IS very clever, but does HE truly beleive what he says? (of course, HE
lies, deceives, falsely advertises, etc -- just like many corporations too, ---
but is that Wrong?) ----------- his goal is ---------- you can fill in many
missing blanks, but I THINK that foreign policy & power motivated him right away, and 9/11 obsessed him beyond just revenge. His Equation was this:
RESPONSE = (Retaliation + (Revenge x 2)) ....... like my own reaction was
weird so I can only imagine what 43's was. anyways, 43 may have a method
in mind, even though I still hate how he's executing it.

[Tom]

He was clever enough to beat Kerry. By more than a few votes, I might add. Clever enough to get real live nukes out of Lybia and secured from ever being used by anyone against us through his foreign policy in the area. Clever enough to give birth to two new free nations with free election. While he out there blazing a trail of freedom, you libs are being swamped in his wake.
I understand why you guys think he is such a horse's arse - he is so far ahead of you all you have ever seen of him is his back side. :lol: :lol:

[ljb]

The same can be said for most (if not all) of your sources. I guess we have a stalemate.
I agree Pa,
See my thread regarding something the neocons will not see.

[Kreed]

hey Tom you smart ass, yes HE, 43, is certainly clever + effective in what
you typed. i am 100% willing to kiss that A R S E in Times Square on the
First Saturday in May when not one devoted horse player will be watching me
anyways, thank Buddha. I think 43 will emerge as (Eternally Divisive + Adored +
Interesting) in many ways ... 43 is Never Boring... and I'm getting to like that.
A lot of things just had to be RE-Shaped & 43 is doing that no doubt. Maybe
it was about time we put many on Edge. So, yeah, bravo,so long as all of US
keep him on his toes because we all know what tough uncertain times they be.
And how 43 gives us USA citizens a fair shake too in domestic matters i want to
watch and judge because YES terrorism comes first BUT please think of all the
regular guys too.

[Tom]

I just wish he was half as committed to fixiing our country as he is Iraq. The border issue is inexcusable, the outsourcing and trade deficits are going to be our undoing. His playing around with SS is just plain ignorance.
He is doing ok on Iraq, but in all other areas, he gets failing grades.
And he still beat Kerry's arse!:lol: :lol:

[Kreed]

yeah God is a Witness, God is a Tease .... i was very sure it would be very
close but Kerry, in spite of those swiftys, would win. they both were flawed;
Kerry's past & Bush's past too ... but I think 9/11 was IT. FACT: 43 will chase
them down. Kerry, UNCERTAIN at best. sometimes one factor rules and just
like Wall St, Uncertainty rattles. the Public Spoke clearly, but rightly? i dunno.
PS: afterthought ... Tom, I Think ...... Trade Deficits; Budget Deficits; CHINA;
outsourcing jobs; OIL USE & lack of a USA plan; Illegals. I don't no the exact
order, but i would place Illegals as near the back.

[Secretariat]

Really interesting article on Wolfie with the Brits...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=342048&in_page_id=1770