Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Message Board - Revolution In Racing Is Needed Now

Tote Master

03-16-2005, 01:18 AM

This entire article reeks of someone trying to cash in on some of the irregularities of horse racing. Just look at their justification for wanting an equine tracking device for timing purposes! What a joke!
Hurley's colt, Songandaprayer, ran 13th in that Derby, some 26 1/2 lengths behind the winner, Monarchos. This was according to the official chart. But since the chart had to be revised and corrected twice before they got it right, you have to wonder if it wasn't really 26 lengths, or maybe 27 lengths. Then again, there's always some play in the numbers the way they keep track of things in racing.The official chart for that horse should have simply read, “Distanced”. Maybe they should have admitted too that their horse never belonged in the Derby to begin with.

This article reads like a good promo letter, for sure. It suggests that adding a computer chip to the flesh of a horse will automatically cure every racing-ill. It proclaims this exactly the way media would go about hyping a story: Blow everything out of proportion, and make it seem as if isolated incidents are the norm. But what they really thrive on is controversy! Good, bad or indifferent the media is doing everything in its power to get your attention. Why? Simply as a means to justify the costs of advertising.

Truthfully I enjoy new technology, but I would love see to these guys try to justify the cost of doing something like this. What will they tell the industry when the timing devices fail because the satellite is malfunctioning due to solar bursts? Or that someone is disturbing the transmission of signals using some form high-energy magnetic resonant frequency. A track announcer might also issue the command over the loudspeakers to turn off all cell phones and communication devices while the races are being run. I could go on and on, and I haven’t even touched on the human control and monitoring aspect of all this! As likely or absurd as some of this all sounds, the easiest way to defeat technology is with better technology. We live in the land of technology.

There’s greed and deception in every industry. The answer is not always technology, sometimes its just common sense. Take a look at the insurance business for example. They’re the biggest bookmakers on earth. They’re betting you that something won’t happen, and while you’re waiting to see if it does, you’re paying the premiums. It’s money that they use for investments to make more money. And if it never happens (other then the inevitable), who’s getting richer? Even if something does happen, their actuaries know exactly how much they’ll make in the meantime.

This should be fun to follow.

BillW

03-16-2005, 05:16 AM

A lot of this article sounds a bit far out (of course, I'm not a veternarian who is obviously an expert in this field, I'm just an Engineer). A chip the size of a grain of rice that can be magically tracked by a "transponder" the size of a small cell phone by an owner not at the track (unless of course, the owner was using the cell phone to log on to the tracks web site to obtain the tracking information that was obtained with local sensors).

First of all the term "transponder" would be properly applied to the "grain of rice" sized implant - not the device on the other end.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transponder

We do have and use passive technology that can work to several meters (the device in my car that automatically ID's me to a toll booth and charges my account is an example) It is about the size of your hand and works at (I believe) a spec'd 10 meters. Pacemakers also use techniques similar to this communicate to the outside world in a passive manner as a power saving strategy. Range is usually out to about 6 inches. This is with a coil an inch or more in diameter.

Actual timing at the track would be possible using this type of "implantable" technology with local sensors spread around the track, but not for tracking horses at the range of miles or even anywhere on the property (unless sensors were everywhere). The implantable would be most likely much larger than a grain of rice.

Unless the NSA has been doing some really freaky stuff that I am not aware of, it is highly unlikely that something as described in the article will be available in the near future.

I think the most accurate statement in this article is "sounds too good to be true, sounds like science fiction."

Bill

Doc

03-16-2005, 10:03 AM

I'm all for this new technology. Why should we rely on the estimated beaten lengths in a race as determined by a chartcaller? Why should we take the word of a trainer when he tells the clocker, "This horse is so-and-so" prior to a workout when in reality it's not? It happens every day at every track in the country. I say chip 'em all!

Doc

chickenhead

03-16-2005, 10:21 AM

you beat me to the punch BillW. I'd love to see a passive "grain of rice", embedded in flesh, with a range of miles....

JustRalph

03-16-2005, 11:07 AM

Over a decade ago I said that we needed a national organization with power. As much as we don't like the two big players, they might be the best chance the industry has to build a federation to govern tracks and racing in general.Regards, Dave Schwartz

Dave, I disagree. What "we" need is a national horse players organization "with power" Where the officers of such an organization would dictate who, what and where to play, based on recommendations from the organization. It is a great idea. But after thinking it through....... I realized that after the first couple of times you recommended a "boycott" of a certain track for a day or two......they would find the officers of the organization in a river somewhere...........with their throats missing...........

Dave Schwartz

03-16-2005, 11:44 AM

Ralph,

I completely agree with you.

However, until there is a single organization, we have nobody to negotiate with.

Dave

kenwoodallpromos

03-16-2005, 12:44 PM

So wHT 2 PLyers even agree on much? Why don't you guys get a list up of say top 10 changes needed by players?
I know takeout and free stuff will be at the top.
I'm talking about technology and doping limits and monitoring and reporting on horses.

kenwoodallpromos

03-16-2005, 01:02 PM

To answer my own question:
American Teletimer results, but I have now my own speed figure method I will be using with 1 standard for all tracks and days with ' per second;
Only currently apporoved painkillers with current limits, no 2year olds race over 5 1/2f;
PP's must list general reason for layoff with type of injury if applicable;
List of % of winners positive for doping and % of each trainer's ITM horses positive for doping violations.
Free admission to live racing.
What happened to NTRA's player reps? Too many millionaires on it or too little interest?

rrbauer

03-16-2005, 06:35 PM

Figman to Kenwood
Where is horseracing thriving?
During the first two weeks of March, the handle at Gulfstream Park on-track is down over 47% as compared to last year's first two weeks of March.
NYRA on-track is down close to 17% over the same period of time.
I think "thriving" is definitely the wrong word!

GeTydOn

Gulfstream is going through major renovations.

NYRA cut signals to a handful of shops.

Comment:
Want to know how bad the handle at GP really is? Consider that last year (2004) GP took a $60+ million hit versus the previous year (2003). So you can make a case that the ontrack rehab project is the reason that the ontrack action has gone down more this year; but, once those "addicts" (Mullinese for horse players) have found somewhere else to go and/or something else to do what makes you think that they will be back. IMHO. Some will....most won't.

RE: NYRA.....they cut signals to "a handful of shops"....How does that impact the "on track" handle?

Suff

03-16-2005, 07:10 PM

Attorney Dennis and Dr. Bernie Dowd are two guys who have been around the track a few times. They've got a good idea whose time has arrived....especially for handicappers.
http://tinyurl.com/4jrgp

Good stuff.. But , if you will, Can you give me your expert opinion on the following idea I have. That I don't think would cost much money.

You know those Camera's that now hover over NFL games? Like Right over the players...about 30-40 feet up? So your right on top of the action?

Why can't horse racing install camera's, with sound, that basically surrounds the horses while they race. I bet you that'll make for exciting TV..

Think about it? People love the site and sounds of a horse race. I bet if you put them right on top of it... it would sell.

As far as the Risk? %. I was in that business.. You can set it up in such a way that the odds of interference, or malfunction to cause an accident would be greater than getting hit by Lightning. Really.

Figman

03-16-2005, 07:48 PM

Lasix1

03-16-2005, 08:11 PM

You know those Camera's that now hover over NFL games? Like Right over the players...about 30-40 feet up? So your right on top of the action?

Why can't horse racing install camera's, with sound, that basically surrounds the horses while they race. I bet you that'll make for exciting TV..

Think about it? People love the site and sounds of a horse race. I bet if you put them right on top of it... it would sell.
Really.
Gosh, Suff, I don't know. What if those close-up cameras had been on the scene when Go for Wand broke down in deep stretch during the Breeder's Cup and had to be destroyed on the track? What would the public reaction had been when Inexcessivelygood suffered the same fate if everyone had seen it and heard it up close with the new technology? I've been told that when a horse's leg or ankle breaks during a race, it often sounds like a gun going off. I've dealt with the animal rights crazies before and breakdowns are the achilles heel of horse racing. I'm afraid such technologies might give them more ammunition in their meddlesome and misguided campaign to shut down the whole sport.

kenwoodallpromos

03-16-2005, 11:07 PM

They could put a camera somewhere good.
Since it is a sport, how about the national anthem? and cheerleaders? There are a lot of ideas but I still say most major sports depend on fans rooting for a certain player or team almost every day. Horses do not run often enough to bring regular fans out like in team sports.
But the basic idea of inplants and cameras does bring the fans closer to the participants.

chickenhead

03-17-2005, 01:43 AM

how's about helmet cams on the jocks? Mike them as well....that would be fun.

takeout

03-17-2005, 05:36 AM

Why don't you guys get a list up of say top 10 changes needed by players?
I know takeout and free stuff will be at the top.
Heck, for now I’d settle for just having the previously owned by put BACK in the pps. Would one of the computer guys on here please tell me why they disappeared those? I don’t get it. :confused:

Suff

03-17-2005, 08:17 AM

Suff, I'm no expert but I do know one thing - NYRA, Churchill or Magna could sure use a forward thinking guy like you as an advisor who totally understands what is needed for both newcomers and regulars to get excited about horse racing.

I've been continuing to read T J Simers since his run in with Mullins. And he made a comment in a follow-up article the other day about how race tracks are filled by an "eclectic, and boutique type of player nowadays. Thats not the exact quote.. But something along those lines. He also mentioned things we talk about all the time.. That in todays, Internet poker, Casino's on every corner, Major league sports running all year, everyday...horse racing is a speck on the radar to most fans.

For a player like me... who is more fan than gambler, that hurts to read. I do agree , and you can see it on this board, that people who play races nowadays are just sharks or wannabe sharks who think they can beat the game, or will die trying. Or... and no offense to some of my friends, its a Bunch of old foggies who got hooked when racing was racing. But when they die off.. Racings going to be in bigger trouble. I can tell you at Suffolk downs, 50% of the crowd is over 60. Any Major league sport with that demographic... would have a CADRE of consultants trying to figure out what is wrong and what they should do.

Yet... even on this board... when a poster chastises the industry, or a particular race , the industry associatted people frequently do nothing but defend the decisons. The ship is sinking and people who work in the industry want to tell us all... "Well we have a nice view of the Ocean"

Do you realize that "Dog Showing" is growing faster and larger than Thoroughbred racing.. The May Flower dog show.. with Ronald Reagan Jr as a commentator is more interesting to people than the San Vicente at SA. Thats a heart breaker. People would rather watch dogs go in a circle than Thoroughbreds.

So I have one suggestion to people who work in the industry...

Keep defending what your doing.. keep telling us how hard the business is, keep telling us how hard people work, keep telling us how we don't understand... Keep telling us that "its only a few" when people get caught cheating... Go ahead. Keep telling us.

No skin off my nose. I have a Job. But soon you will not.

Suff

03-17-2005, 08:22 AM

breakdowns are the achilles heel of horse racing. I'm afraid such technologies might give them more ammunition in their meddlesome and misguided campaign to shut down the whole sport.

Thats probably the biggest glitch you'd have to consider. I agree.

But aren't many "live" events actually delayed 5-7 seconds? Just a quick answer off the top of my head would be..... 30 second delay.

But your right.. its a worthy concern.

03-17-2005, 08:39 AM

I've been continuing to read ...

One of the best posts I've read in a long time.

PaceAdvantage

03-17-2005, 09:46 AM

Or... and no offense to some of my friends, its a Bunch of old foggies who got hooked when racing was racing. But when they die off.. Racings going to be in bigger trouble. I can tell you at Suffolk downs, 50% of the crowd is over 60. Any Major league sport with that demographic... would have a CADRE of consultants trying to figure out what is wrong and what they should do.

It only makes sense that racing's demographic is skewed to the older side. Most young folks have JOBS that prevent them from going to the racetrack/otb during the day, except on weekends. It's been like this forever, and your argument (that racing is in trouble when the old folks die off) has been around forever.

It hasn't happened.....

Will it happen? Maybe, but not for the reasons you are stating.

03-17-2005, 11:10 AM

All of which is why I've never really figured out why big time racing doesn't move to nights during the week. I know it would hurt initially, but sometimes you have to suffer in the present to prosper in the future.

Sinner369

03-17-2005, 11:30 AM

Why just Horses?

How about athletes? Especially Track and Field. Then we truly know they

are not taking drugs.

Valuist

03-17-2005, 11:33 AM

I know some jurisdictions have rules about not stepping on each other. The harness people are already crying that simulcasting of t-breds is killing their handle. The way I see it, many people who don't like harness are pushing money thru the windows at night, which benefits the harness purses.

Suff

03-17-2005, 11:40 AM

It only makes sense that racing's demographic is skewed to the older side. Most young folks have JOBS that prevent them from going to the racetrack/otb during the day, except on weekends. It's been like this forever, and your argument (that racing is in trouble when the old folks die off) has been around forever.

It hasn't happened.....

Will it happen? Maybe, but not for the reasons you are stating.

Jobs? The Mayflower Dog show gets a Larger Crowd and a Bigger TV audience than the San Vicente because people have Jobs?

Racings unpopularity is not due to people having Jobs. Especially when you consider that people can play on the phone, on the TV and On the WWW.

Internet Gaming has gone from ZERO to 30 Billion in 7 years.

Your post is indicative of my point. Things are not good. I say they are not good... and you say... My arguements are old and proven wrong.

Refer to my other post. Keep on telling yourself what your telling yourself,

Sinner369

03-17-2005, 12:06 PM

It is so tough to make money at the track and young people have little or no experience on how to play the races that's why you don't see too many young faces.

Myself? It took years just to develop enough patience and insight to break even at the track.

kenwoodallpromos

03-17-2005, 12:30 PM

Racing wants uninformed gamblers and yearling and 2 year old buyers, not fans.
If racing wanted fans all they would have to do is copy auto racing.
Car race fans do not cheer for the track runner (horse), they cheer for the driver and the team.
Serious dog show fans know the breeders and trainers. As short a career as the show dogs have is it longer than a thoroughbred's.

PaceAdvantage

03-17-2005, 10:23 PM

Racings unpopularity is not due to people having Jobs. Especially when you consider that people can play on the phone, on the TV and On the WWW.

Internet Gaming has gone from ZERO to 30 Billion in 7 years.

Your post is indicative of my point. Things are not good. I say they are not good... and you say... My arguements are old and proven wrong.

Refer to my other post. Keep on telling yourself what your telling yourself,

What's your problem? You're acting like those dreaded neo-cons when someone doesn't agree with you lock stock and barrel.

The fact is that wagering handle on THOROUGHBRED RACING suffered it's very first DECREASE, in 2004, after ELEVEN STRAIGHT YEARS OF INCREASE. The decrease, by the way, was a whopping ONE-HALF of ONE PERCENT.

Pardon me if I don't share your "racing is doomed" outlook. PEOPLE ARE BETTING ON RACING, just as much AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE. Would you have me ignore these facts?

BETTING is the BOTTOM LINE, not track attendance. Like you said, the internet is here, and it's much easier to get a bet down AWAY from the track.

You say racing is NOT POPULAR??? The following graph does not support your theory. The attendance figures for the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont stakes don't support your theory. The much wider TV coverage does not support your theory. Betting on THOROUGHBRED racing is a 15 BILLION dollar a year party.....not popular?

http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook/images/paramut.gif

Tote Master

03-18-2005, 02:45 AM

PaceAdvantage
The fact is that wagering handle on THOROUGHBRED RACING suffered it's very first DECREASE, in 2004, after ELEVEN STRAIGHT YEARS OF INCREASE. The decrease, by the way, was a whopping ONE-HALF of ONE PERCENT. I’m sure that this minute drop off was more then likely caused by the increased popularity of the off-shore racebooks. In fact, without the loss of those funds the 2004 totals would have certainly shown another increase.

The purveyors of a doomed game have been around for decades. In today’s mass media environment the world is a much smaller place, and a molehill is suddenly a mountain. The slightest blip on their radar can create a monumental event and can be portrayed as something that’s widespread. When they can’t make more out of something then it actually is the next step is to create controversy about it. They know that no two people will agree on most anything, so by filling each venue with differing opinions the story begins to take on a life of its own. Unfortunately, those who believe everything they read or hear can easily fall victim to all this media hype.

Instead of focusing on the negative aspects of the game, do what most serious players do: Concentrate on simply making a profit. Do you think for a minute that a resolute player is going to let himself be distracted by all of the ancillary B.S.? Not a chance in hell! The demeanor of anyone affected by these inconsequential things is certainly not reflected in their concerns about losing money. In all likelihood, it’s just another excuse to blame the game for their personal shortcomings. Once you resolve yourself to taking this game a bit more seriously all of the nonsense becomes irrelevant.

breakage

03-18-2005, 02:53 AM

Man that sure is a pretty graph. But where is the rise in the inflation index in that graph? Where is the country's population increase in that graph? Where is the fact that tracks get less of the overall betting dollar now (internet, offshores) than ever before? Where does it show the smaller and smaller piece of the wagering pie that horse racing gets compared to overall gambling of Americans? But it sure is a good looking graph. :)

PaceAdvantage

03-18-2005, 03:16 AM

Where does it show the smaller and smaller piece of the wagering pie that horse racing gets compared to overall gambling of Americans? But it sure is a good looking graph. :)

It shows the only thing I need it to show to refute Suff's claims. Suff claims Thoroughbred racing is unpopular. The graph clearly shows that over the past 10 years, the interest level in Thoroughbred racing has done nothing but improved. Over that time period, pari-mutuel handle on Thoroughbred racing INCREASED by 50%, from 10 billion to 15 billion.

No matter how you slice it, that's popular. Pretty graph indeed!

03-18-2005, 05:24 AM

PA, I'd like to see those numbers with inflation factored in. Also, keep in mind, the ability to wager is 20 times easier than it was a decade ago. Look at 1994? How many people had PCs? How many of those were connected to the internet? How easy was it to wager online? Think about these before you start quoting handle figures.

Handle should be growing exponentially, not staying relatively stagnant.

Suff

03-18-2005, 08:24 AM

What's your problem? [/img]

I have no problem...lol. what? I didn't agree with your premise that the reason Racing demographics are what they are is because of Jobs...

That doesn't mean I have a problem. Was my tone sharp?

Those stats are what they are. But they are gross numbers. They are not netted out. Its not clear exactly what those numbers mean if they not comingled with Inflation ,dollar values, and other extraneous factors. Such a steep rise at one or two tracks that skewer the totals incorrectly. Or more imporatntly where they fit in with Gambling Trends.

Your one of the guys I was sorta refering to when I said that some people just want to turn a Blind eye. I think Doomed is a strong word...but also I think Lagging behind is to soft a word

From 1974 to 1994--20 years--the amount of money Americans legally wagered has risen 2,800 percent, from $17 billion to $482 billion
*source (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gamble/etc/facts.html)

. When you think that Parimutual had less than 5% Gross dollars wagered in the USA... and when you factor in that includes.. every horse track, Every Dog track, Harness track, Jai-alia track in america.. Parimutual wagering is a peasant in the wagering world.
I'm not equating the two.. But I am Comparing the two...

Gambling on Poker has grown 6 fold in 12 months time

I was off by 10 Billion in my on-line figure for Gaming yesterday... It has gone from ZERO to $40 Billion..not 30.. in 10 years time. And your bragging about 1 and 2% increases in GROSS Dollar handle for T-breds? When you factor in dollar values, 1-2% is actually a decline. BINGO grew at a greater rate than Horses.

Figures are rising by 100% and more in 12 month periods in some sections of Gambling. The way you extrapulate a 50% rise in a 10 year period to try and say its a "Thriving and growing business" is not correct.

If Company A grows 1000% in 5 years and Company B Grew 25% in the same time period... One's failing, The other is not.

Your doing exactly what I said people do.. Defending the indefensible.

Indian Gaming is the fastest growing industry in the world. Going better than Gasoline, steel, technology... Did you hear me there PA? The fastest growing Industry in the world. People in RECORD Numbers... Staggering Numbers are gambling today.. Lotterys, On-line, Casino's... and Thoroughbred racing is if anything.. picking up the crumbs.. and I even dispute that.

I Think you are DEAD wrong and doing the industry and its fans a disservice when you try and say things are going anything but poorly.

Suff

03-18-2005, 08:29 AM

Betting on THOROUGHBRED racing is a 15 BILLION dollar a year party.....not popular?

[img]

Btw..thats pari-mutuel.. Not t-bred alone.

kenwoodallpromos

03-18-2005, 01:35 PM

I said it once prior on this forum-
I see as the common thread of sports betting vs. other forms is that you can bet various and even smaller amounts (I still find penny slots!), but the amount of time waiting for the outcome is sooner and the ease of making the bet when actually at the venue is easier for other types of gambling.
That is why Magna's machines would have been nice to see flourish.
Maybe someone can figure out how to get racing hooked up with state lotteries.

PaceAdvantage

03-18-2005, 07:45 PM

Btw..thats pari-mutuel.. Not t-bred alone.

Not according to my source. My source said it was THOROUGHBRED PARI-MUTUEL handle. My source is the Jockey Club.

The title of the graph should be ammeded to read US Thoroughbred Pari-Mutel Handle.....like I said, it's from the Jockey Club....I can point you to the page if you'd like to see it for yourself.

03-18-2005, 07:56 PM

Forget the graph for a minute, doesn't matter. Why isn't racing growing with all the things I talked about?

JustRalph

03-18-2005, 08:34 PM

Forget the graph for a minute, doesn't matter. Why isn't racing growing with all the things I talked about?

because guys like me are getting sick of trying to dodge the Jeff Mullin's of the sport. I put 55k back and forth thru the windows in 2002. Most of it was the tracks money.........but over the last 2 years it has dropped to 11k and 3k last year. I just don't enjoy trying to figure out who the "wild card" is in a race anymore.

Toss in the tax stuff and the fighting with the IRS........then having to write the state a check at the end of the year...........it just ain't as much fun as it used to be...........even if you are winning................

PaceAdvantage

03-18-2005, 08:50 PM

Forget the graph for a minute, doesn't matter. Why isn't racing growing with all the things I talked about?

All the things you talked about?

PA, I'd like to see those numbers with inflation factored in. Also, keep in mind, the ability to wager is 20 times easier than it was a decade ago. Look at 1994? How many people had PCs? How many of those were connected to the internet? How easy was it to wager online? Think about these before you start quoting handle figures.

Inflation has been pretty much in check the last 5-10 years. Would it have that much of an impact on the handle figures? I'm not qualified to answer that question.

If I can't quote handle figures, what the hell am I going to quote? Handle is the pulse of the industry! Suff started this by talking about popularity based on attendance...he cited how some dog show attracted more people than the San Vicente....

If you think I'm being misleading by quoting cold hard handle figures, what do you have to say about Suff's claims based on dog show attendance!!??!!

I don't get you guys sometimes. Could racing be more popular?? Of course it could. Should it? Maybe. But remember, racing isn't some recent fad. It's been around since the middle ages. Maybe racing can get lucky and catch lightning in a bottle like poker has (another age-old game). Maybe not.

But, being that racing is as old as the hills, it's not going to jump out and attract a horde of new fans. What it HAS been doing, as the graph clearly shows, is maintaining it's allure, and over the last 10 years, it has grown markedly, as it should have with the advent of more accessible wagering venues (internet, phone betting...etc)

CJ, in your ideal world, what would you like to see happen to racing....who would you like to see implement what you would like to see....and how feasible would your implementation be? How would you guarantee that your implementation would actually increase racing's popularity?

You guys seem to have all the answers here (Suff and CJ). I'm just pointing out a few facts along the way that don't seem to jibe with your main theory (racing is unpopular). Unpopular? Not compared to 10 years ago, if we can rely on the handle figures. CJ seems to be saying we can't rely on the handle figures. If that is the case, then I surrender.

03-18-2005, 09:27 PM

I didn't mean the graph was irrelevant, just that the bickering over whether it was t-bred or harness also wasn't important.

Some things that would help racing immensely in my opinion:

1) Close a BUNCH of tracks. There is entirely too much purse money being paid out to bad horses that don't deserve it. We need full fields.

2) The stakes schedule needs to be fixed in a bad way. The best horses shouldn't be able to duck each other until the Triple Crown and Breeder's Cup.

3) The cheaters have got to go. No more wrist slaps, no more "secret" punishments, we need severe actions. The belief for those on the fringe of the game that racing is an insiders game has got to change. I'd start with detention barns for every horse entered to run.

4) State of the art information. No more 1/5s, no more run ups, no more about distances, etc.

These are just a few. Can I guarentee it will make the game increase in popularity? Of course not. But I can guarentee that doing the same shit, basically nothing, will not.

Show Me the Wire

03-18-2005, 09:57 PM

As soon as all the States allow Racinos, racetracks will close and there will be less live racing. Live racing is a drain on track resources and track management will do everything to maximize their profits from gaming, read slots, including reducing live race meets.

Horsemen,i.e. the trainers do not understand that gaming, slots, will have a limiting effect on the industry. I am not in favor of slots at the track, but I am in favor of shake out in racing venues. I am on record saying there are currently too many tracks and too much live racing. Tracks need to close, but they should not be subsidized by slot money, while the horsemen will be eventually left with less economic opportunity.

Additionally, the industry has to clean itself up in regards to cheating and performance enhancing drugs. And most definitely more reliable as well as accessable information should be made available to the public. Heck, EQ should be giving its charts away and encouraging people to use the info to create dbs. programs, etc, to create interest in the sport, instead of charging unreasonable fees for back charts and threatening people with copyright infringements.

It is a very shortsighted industry from the trainers up to top management. It is amazing the industry even exists today with its gross mismanagement on all levels.

Lasix1

03-18-2005, 11:26 PM

It is a very shortsighted industry from the trainers up to top management. It is amazing the industry even exists today with its gross mismanagement on all levels.
I couldn't agree more with SMTW's assessment. I first got interested in horse racing in 1987 when they opened Remington Park in Oklahoma City, near which I was living at the time. The elder DeBartalo had made a fortune building shopping malls in Ohio. But he loved horse racing and spent 97 million dollars to build RP. But alas, poor management, short-sighted stupidity (they could have been an early and premier simulcast signal had they seen the revolution coming) began the downward spiral, and when the old man died, his kids, who cared not a whit for racing slowly strangled it to death. It was sold 10 years or so later to, guess who, Frank Stronach and the Magna machine for less than 2 million dollars. (You read that right.)

There's too much live racing which means too many races chasing too few good horses. Competition for the gambling dollar is ferocious and it is simply too cerebral a past-time for gamblers who prefer to pull a handle than spending countless hours pouring over speed and pace figures and keeping databases.

Now I live only a few furlongs from Oaklawn Park, and while the same national trends have impacted this 100-year-old track, there is still a culture of racing in the state, you can still see three generations from the same family sitting together at the track, Coy's Steakhouse is still packed after the races, they have one relatively short live season, and it's not "good-bye to all of that" here just yet. :)

kenwoodallpromos

03-19-2005, 02:20 AM

4) State of the art information. No more 1/5s, no more run ups, no more about distances, etc.
Can I pm you an idea I have for making my own speed figures based on hundredths? It will probably sound crazy.

Suff

03-19-2005, 08:31 AM

All the things you talked about?

the San Vicente....

If you think I'm being misleading by quoting cold hard handle figures, what do you have to say about Suff's claims based on dog show attendance!!??!!

I.

You have to look at things in the context of current facts and events.

The TV ratings and Attendence of a boutique sport, like Dog showing , isn't a bad place to go for a comparison. Imho. Dog showing is experiencing a a big UPTICK in interest and Popularity.

At one time Thoroughbreds did hold sway over the Nations Sporting mind. Now it does not...What I'm discussing here is why? And as fan and contributor I'm completely entitled to.

I'll tell you.. I disagree with your premise entirely. I think that the thoroughbred racing industry is in a state of total disrepair.

I come from a racing town.. When I was a kid little old ladys would give me a piece of paper and .50 cents or a $1.00 and say "Run these up the street for me"... It would be her Daily Double at Suffolk Downs. I'd run it up the Bar and give it to the Bookie. Everybody talked races.. A saturday afternoon at the track was a special treat.

Those days are loooong gone. I may plug in some more later. I don't think its worth discussing much longer. You and your source... defy the obvious. A 50% rise in handle.. Over 10 years is the basis for your point that racing is doing OK.. even growing. Thats so inaccurate when you look at the Gambling industry as a whole, the advant of technology, , the .005 % of new gambling dollars Racing is attracting, the demographics of its participants, The cheating, The financial loss's of its principals, The level of poverty among the employees who support the game backside, The lack of National exposure (excluding the big 3,)....Really the Big 1, and the 2a and 2b... with the preakness and Belmont relying heavily on how the TC shakes out. Lets see what happens to the Belmont ratings if a different Horse wins the KD and the preakness.

Suff

03-19-2005, 09:02 AM

btw

Heres 1 of 20 ideas I have. And a Track could probably do it for less the purse of the Kentucy Derby.

Remember the old electronic subway? The Cables that ran overhead of them? You string 4 of them around the racetrack,, 2 on top, and 1 on the inside rail and 1 on the outside rail. You put camera's and sound on them.

Then you get people right up and on the race. What captivated people at the racetrack 40 years ago? The call! The race caller.. This will bring the race caller back into the game... I think people will eat it up... A horse race with its shape and sound is a Powerfull event. If we can bring people right into the race from thier living room... it may spark an interest. People may like to watch something like that. Just for the excitement off it... and if you can get a decent rating on TV , you can get advertisers and Cable Stations to pay rights for that. And in todays world... thats where sports makes its money. TV Rights and Souvieners... Nobody makes money selling tickets or by people wagering on thier sport.. they make money when people watch.

We have to figure a way to get people to watch. The rebirth of POKER occured when the TRAVEL CHANNEL put poker on late nights just to fill the time slots... POKER on the travel channel? Sounded Bizarre at first... But it was an idea that worked. You know the rest of that story.

As an aside to my idea.. I believe that if you get people "UP AND IN" the race, you can add some real commentary , not only as the race unfolds, but even perhaps during a replay... where a color commentator could not only take people through the race, but all the while people will be learning about horse racing, and as a a Great aside to something like this..

I believe it would bring back longer races... as Producers would want to Captivate peoples attention for 2-4 minutes, rather than 5 furlongs in 59.02..

It sounds simple? Bizarre? Unrealistic? a Pipe Dream? Who knows. But for 2 million bucks...and a deal with SPIKE TV... Its worth a shot.

Btw.. SPIKE TV.. is a cable channel for men that has great programming that T-breds would fit perfect. I realize not everyone has SpikeTv.. But those that do.. understand where it fits on thier Programming.

If anything,,, one of the few Orginizations with DRASTIC improvements in thier financials is TVG.. and I think thier programming sucks because all they get is the Track feed. I feel sorry for them when they are at the mercy of the tracks for providing the Post Parade..

"Ok I think we are going to NY for the Post Parade?" Nope.. Not yet.. Ok Lets go to Oaklawn where they are loading",,, *(30 seconds later) ..Ok Gate scratch at Oaklawn.. Lets go To NY...Nope.. Not yet.. OK.. then lets go to ..YUP never mind.,. ok here we go.. Post parade at NY.. Here's #3 (they missed 1 and 2)... "

Comical>> a National Show at the whim of the Paddock manager... Its a Joke.

sjk

03-19-2005, 10:07 AM

I don't understand you guys who want fewer race tracks. Those of us that enjoy betting on 10-12 tracks at a time would hate to see that.

So would the people that raise and care for all the horses that would suddenly become unnecessary. A large industry depends on the racing that takes place.

Whatever political support racing has is based on the fact that many jobs derive from this activity. If there is no live racing there is no reason for slot machine to be at tracks (as opposed to competing with tracks). If there is no live racing at a track there is no reason for the track to be there at all.

Why would anyone be in favor of downsizing the entire industry? As for the quality of the breed, if only half as many horses were bred many of the champions of the past would never have been born.

03-19-2005, 10:20 AM

Nobody says you need to have unnecessary horses. You could run more races at less tracks. But, instead of running 4, 5, or 6 horses a race like a lot of tracks are doing, you could run 10, 11, or 12, for much greater money. You could even pay all runners.

sjk

03-19-2005, 10:36 AM

When people start talking about eliminating race tracks I usually think they are talking about the smaller tracks which in many cases offer larger average field sizes than some big tracks. Maybe that is why I would be so sorry if they went away. Perhaps I should have read the whole thread before jumping to conclusions.

I hope the tracks with all of the short fields are looking in the mirror to see what they are doing wrong. On the other hand, people still seem to bet on these races (they certainly get less of my money than do the larger field races) so maybe there is little incentive to improve.

As far as tracks running more races, some of them have to adjust their post times now to avoid darkness in the winter. I would also think that 5-6 hours is pushing the limit of how long they think they can keep a person at the track.

PaceAdvantage

03-19-2005, 12:36 PM

Suff

03-19-2005, 02:02 PM

Everytime someone tries to get creative with camera angles and production with horse racing, everyone on this board screams bloody murder....

"WHY CAN'T THEY JUST USE THE TRACK PAN FEED???!!!! I CAN'T FOLLOW THE RACE OR THE HORSE I BET WITH ALL THESE CLOSEUPS AND CAMERA CUTS"

That's what you'll probably end up getting with your idea Suff. I'm not saying your idea is bad...I too think it would add something to the race. But like I said, most people who watch and bet on racing won't like it.....

PA.. People that are watching gambling based sports, Like football, Poker, NCAA basketball ARE NOT watching races...

And people that bet... ARE Not betting on horse racing...

But those are the people we NEED!!

I bumped into a story today about a Bowling Bowl Manufacturer that is scenting thier balls. Apricot, lemon, apple scented Bowling balls. They are trying something to generate new sales.

What I am seeing more and more is that the as Game attempts to tailor itself to sharks.. thats all thats left is sharks.

Suff

03-19-2005, 02:06 PM

That's what you'll probably end up getting with your idea Suff.

nutha thing... about Ideas..

This thread started with an idea... Digital produced charts from electronic chips in the saddle cloth. Ok,, who is that for? The sharks... thats who

Whose idea do you think would attract more Viewers or participants.

Idea 1.

Camera's and sounds right in the thick of the race

idea 2

Hey lets watch a horse race on TV.. I heard they have electronic chips that measure exactly how far apart they are!!

kenwoodallpromos

03-19-2005, 03:18 PM

Not les circui9ts- just less tracks. Run on the same track all year and sell the extras.

PaceAdvantage

03-20-2005, 08:48 PM

OK folks, here's the bottom line....horse racing is the ONLY major sport where regular people CAN'T COMPLETELY IMMERSE THEMSELVES!!

Think about that. Baseball -- buy a ball, glove and bat, get some friends, and you can play every aspect of the sport. Same goes for every single other major sport out there...football, hockey, basketball....etc....

Even Poker, which is currently experiencing quite the rebirth -- all you need is a deck of cards, some chips, some $$ and some friends, and you can immerse yourself completely in the experience....

Horse racing? Nope. All you can do is bet on the outcome. Most folks will never know what it's like to ride a horse at 40mph+ against 8-12 other horses in a race to the finish line....

What about NASCAR you say? True, most of us won't be competing in an organized car race, BUT, we have all gotten in our cars and most of us at one time or another have pushed it to as fast as we dared to go.....

This is the major disadvantage racing has as a spectator sport. This is why some are banging their heads against the wall, trying to come up with new ways to attract new blood into the game. As I see it, there are only a handful of ways to attract new fans....

One is fan education, and the NTRA's website is very good in this respect. Go to http://www.ntra.com/playthehorses_index.asp and see what I'm talking about. Problem is, nobody knows about this page. How will the average Joe who's never bet on a race in his life, going to know to go to www.ntra.com (http://www.ntra.com/)? Where are the commercials advertising this place in cyberspace?

Another way is to make the betting more appealing! We need more forward thinking.....we need to START BETTING EXCHANGES here in the US. That will excite the masses. Getting to be your own bookmaker.....THAT'S NEW, DIFFERENT, and EXCITING!!!

We need more head-to-head matchups, more $.10 wagers, more innovation. We need FREELY ACCESSIBLE PAST PERFORMANCES!!! We need more bells and whistles....video charts...stuff like Hong Kong....stuff that EXCITES people!

We also need to make it EASIER for people to go home with some extra $$ in their pockets!!! We need to CUT takeout rates at least in HALF! It's absolutely absurd that ANY bet at the racetrack has a 20%+ takeout rate. Hell, even my credit card doesn't charge me that kind of interest to play their game. Where do racetracks and state governments get off taking that kind of money out of my pari-mutuel pool? This isn't the lottery folks.

Ever wonder why people keep playing the mindless slot machines with their 1% take?

But enough from me....

breakage

03-20-2005, 09:21 PM

Another way is to make the betting more appealing! We need more forward thinking.....we need to START BETTING EXCHANGES here in the US. That will excite the masses. Getting to be your own bookmaker.....THAT'S NEW, DIFFERENT, and EXCITING!!!

We need more head-to-head matchups, more $.10 wagers, more innovation. We need FREELY ACCESSIBLE PAST PERFORMANCES!!! We need more bells and whistles....video charts...stuff like Hong Kong....stuff that EXCITES people!

We also need to make it EASIER for people to go home with some extra $$ in their pockets!!! We need to CUT takeout rates at least in HALF! It's absolutely absurd that ANY bet at the racetrack has a 20%+ takeout rate. Hell, even my credit card doesn't charge me that kind of interest to play their game. Where do racetracks and state governments get off taking that kind of money out of my pari-mutuel pool? This isn't the lottery folks.

Ever wonder why people keep playing the mindless slot machines with their 1% take?

All good ideas. The question is why do the people who run tracks rarely incorporate any ideas like these. Maybe they never even have ideas like these. It seems like their whole thought process these days revolves around what kind of alternatve gambling they can get legalized to save them from drowning in their own ineptitude at running a successful business. The only people I have talked to in racetrack management were either in denial or were dinosauric (probably not a word) in their thinking.

Tom

03-20-2005, 09:39 PM

Topless Beulah Twins would be exciting!:eek:

Seriously, get HRTV and TVG on more cable channels - make it available to a lot more people. More bettingopportunities for beginners - like PA says, the 10 cent supers are a great idea. How about 10 cent doubles, pic 3-4, exactas? Wtih computers, it would be easy to do. Hey, some guy off the street hits for 10 buck on a 80 cent wager and he might come back and play some more.

But someone should really talk to the twins. Both of them.:rolleyes:

Lasix1

03-20-2005, 10:12 PM

Tom,

The blonde bimbos from Beulah Park were at Oaklawn Saturday for the big day. They came in last year too, and while they weren't exactly topless, I wondered then, as I do now, what tracks will do next to turn out a crowd. They bantered with track announcer Terry Wallace and gave their picks--great picks they were too if you like the morning line, mixed in with a few 50-1 shots who run like it.

Tracks everywhere are copying their lead. Instead of putting in solid female analysts like Caton Bradar, Charlsie Canty, or Jeanine Edwards (of course, they are already well-employed on the networks) they hire eye candy.

The eye candy does create some hilarious moments. At Oaklawn this year they hired a sweet thing to do interviews in the paddock. A couple of weeks ago she collared a grizzled veteran trainer whose horse had finished 6th and beaten 12 lengths in his last race. "What's your horse going to have to do to win today?" she asked naively. Flabbergasted by the stupidity of the question, the patient trainer nonetheless replied with a slow drawl, "Well, 'mam, he's just gonna have to run a whole lot faster than he did last time." :D

alysheba88

03-21-2005, 08:43 AM

Racing handle has increased despite much more competition from lotteries, slots and offshore sports and race betting. Inflation or not, hard to argue its a dying sport.

JPinMaryland

03-21-2005, 03:59 PM

" But remember, racing isn't some recent fad. It's been around since the middle ages. Maybe racing can get lucky and catch lightning in a bottle like poker has (another age-old game). Maybe not."

As a pt. of fact poker is not "age old." It emerged sometime in the 1820s along the Mississippi River. The earliest date that can be verified is 1829, which is confirmed by a reformed gambler named Jonathan Green who wrote a book about gambling and the english comedian Joe Cowell who both attest to a 20 card version played in that year.

It's interesting to see comparisons being made to the "overnight" success of televised poker, which is indeed an interesting phenomenon.

I noticed that ESPN had been promoting that handicapping tournament that took place in Las Vegas in feb. Wire to Wire promoted it on at least two shows and I think ESPN did an entire show just on the tournament. It really seemed like they were trying to take poker's formula for tv success and adopt it to horseracing.

Probably just a knee jerk reaction from the marketing people at ESPN. I think horse racing can stand on its own merits.

JustRalph

03-21-2005, 04:35 PM

The poker stuff is wildly popular now.......it amazes me. I have to admit...it is more fun than the ponies nowadays.........

Anybody see Doyle clean that kids clock last week.........?

Tom

03-21-2005, 08:09 PM

Poker....most fun you can have with your pants on (Dick Schmidt said that about Total Pace numbers:) )

I love sitting for days at a poker table, living on chips and beer, smoking stoogies, smelling like a bum. It dosen't get any better than that. The occassional sucker punch to back of the head actually clears the cobwebs and lets you play longer! :ThmbUp:

Glitchy

03-21-2005, 10:00 PM

Very interesting topic(s). I'd like to go back to what Just Ralph said early on about a "national horseracing organization". As a former fundraiser for a political party (I will not divulge which in order not to offend any of my fellow board members)and for an NPO (non-profit), one of the first questions that is always asked when looking at organizing a "Movement" is How may people that are interested in this movement are:

1. Passionate?
2. Interested?
3. Coaxable?
4. Ambivalent?
5. Clueless?

I totally reject the idea that, just because we are competitors at the track, that we cannot form a viable union. Why? Because common goals like track take, cheating, field size, etc. will be beneficial to all who are involved in the competition (this board would probably not exist without a good number of consensus or common ground issues).

Let's tailor the above attributes to horse racing. What percentage of money bet is bet by people who are:

1. Serious bettors who make a living or good supplement from horse racing.
2. Casual bettors who have a strong interest/love for the game.
3. Large dollar bettors who are primarily gamblers (they spend very little time handicapping, preferring to bet numbers, etc.)
4. Weekend bettors who bet less than $100/card; and
5. Inveterate gamblers.

I would submit that Groups 1 & 2 would be very interested in having industry representation through a "union", while the other three would have virtually no interest at all. The old fund-raising maxim was 15/40. Fifteen percent of the people interested in the issue would have to fall into Group 1, while an addititonal 25 percent would have to fall into Group 2.

Anybody want to guess what percentages of our horsebetting friends fall into each group? I personally have no idea.

kenwoodallpromos

03-21-2005, 10:28 PM

1) 2%
2) 10%
3) 5% (including owners and backsiders)
4) 10%
5) 73%
How do you contact these?
Maybe a low cost tip sheet at the track with contact info?
Can the Hand.Ass. give tips to get members?

breakage

03-22-2005, 12:42 AM

[QUOTE=Glitchy]Very interesting topic(s).

1. Serious bettors who make a living or good supplement from horse racing.
2. Casual bettors who have a strong interest/love for the game.
3. Large dollar bettors who are primarily gamblers (they spend very little time handicapping, preferring to bet numbers, etc.)
4. Weekend bettors who bet less than $100/card; and
5. Inveterate gamblers.

QUOTE]
I think your number one should include serious bettors who don't make a living or even win over an extended period of time. I'm sure there are alot of serious money players who are using rebates or track rewards to try be a winning or breakeven player but just aren't quite getting it done.

chickenhead

03-22-2005, 12:57 AM

The First Rule of Handicapping Assosiation is you do not talk about Handicapping Association.

The Second Rule of Handicapping Association is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING ASSOCIATION!

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 01:33 AM

As a pt. of fact poker is not "age old." It emerged sometime in the 1820s along the Mississippi River.

That's not entirely accurate, if you are to believe other sources:

The origin of Poker is widely disputed. There are as many possible birthplaces as there are variations of the game. The most popular belief is that it was invented by the Chinese around 900 A.D., possibly derived from the Chinese dominoes. On New Year's Eve, 969, the Emperor Mu-tsung is reported to have played "domino cards" with his wife.

Others state that Poker originates from the Persian game "as nas". This is a 5-player Persian game, which requires a special deck of 25 cards with 5 suits. However, this is only recorded back to the 17th century. Another theory calls on the French "poque". The French who settled New Orleans around 1480 played Poque, a card game involving bluffing and betting. This was stated to be the first use of a deck consisting of spades, diamonds, clubs, and hearts.

Fragments of cards have been tentatively dated to 12th or 13th century in Egypt. Some propose that modern cards originated from the Indian card game of Ganjifa. We can see that narrowing down the exact origin becomes as difficult as pulling a royal straight flush.

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 01:36 AM

This is for SUFF & CJ:
(from Blood-Horse)

Poll Says Fan Interest in Racing Up 5.1% (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27258)
The number of people in the United States who said they are interested in Thoroughbred racing increased for a fifth consecutive year, according to national consumer research data released March 21 by ESPN Sports Poll, a division of TNS Sport. More... (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27258)

Fan interest in Thoroughbred racing grew by 5.1% last year, from 35.6% to 37.4% of the U.S. population (age 18-plus) to yield a total fan base of 78.5 million U.S. adults, according to poll figures. The 5.1% increase was the highest registered by any sport in 2004.

GameTheory

03-22-2005, 01:50 AM

Thoroughbred racing has climbed into the top 10 sports in terms of fan interest.

...

plainolebill

03-22-2005, 02:26 AM

I guess this is good news. :sleeping: In the 50's hoss racing was the #1 spectator sport in the US. It drew more people than MLB by a wide margin. If we'd had someone like Pete Rozelle as a national commissioner of racing this thread wouldn't be taking place.

JPinMaryland

03-22-2005, 04:06 AM

PA the best source of information on the origins of card games is David Parlett's book, Origns of Card games or some such, from which is the source of my quote.

your post has some errors in it (for example the French did not settle New orleans in the 1480s!)

Also propagates some legends. That the chinese invented dominoes is little doubt and that this development paved the way for cards is probably logical. HOwever there is no evidence of a chinese game of poker.

Parlett as well as other sources have also examined the French poque origin of the game and again there is almost no evidence. The french games that are similar and are played can be traced to an entirely different game.

Not all experts are in agreement as to origin but the fact is that there is no evidence of poker prior to 1829. Cards existed in medieval times, but unlikely poker.

To compare it to horseracing is the problem; horseracing is old and is well documented, poker is not.

Suff

03-22-2005, 07:08 AM

...

I want you to remember all this nonsense down the road ok...

I posted 5 areas that racing is in deep doo-doo... You ignored them all.

That Poll says 78 Million people Call themselves a "fan" of racing.

Where are they?

Again.. I am not a Principal of a race track. I have no wish to debate the obvious with. If you'd like to live in denial or cherry pick data that make syou feel good. Go Right ahead.

Nothing in that article has translated into a boon or even substancial success for racing.

Hollywoods closing, Magna us bleeding, NYRA is Bleeding..

I get frustrated even typing it so I will not. I hope this poll translates into success for horse racing. Its has not as of yet. But I hope it does.

Suff

03-22-2005, 07:18 AM

This is for SUFF & CJ:
(]

Ok.. Your getting cute...

Why did you post that directly to me, and color code it...

Thats a shit thing to do with out addressing the things I asked you about and pointed out to you when we discussed this topic earlier... Now you have a choice..You can troll the internet finding things that support your point, or you can address things that come up in discussion.

Magna , churchilldowns, NYRA and virtyally all major circuits bleeding loss's??

growing. Thats so inaccurate when you look at the Gambling industry as a whole, the advant of technology, , the .005 % of new gambling dollars Racing is attracting, the demographics of its participants, The cheating, The financial loss's of its principals, The level of poverty among the employees who support the game backside, The lack of National exposure (excluding the big 3,)

PA.. a discussion is when I address points you bring up, and You address points I bring up... a discussion is not you ignoring the above points, until an article comes out that favors your stance and you color code it and address it to me. Every Major enity in this game is Bleeding money.. start there.. ok? Tell me how good its going when the BIG 3 Can't make a buck..

Try that today.. The other issues you can address later..

Or do you just want to wait a week until you find an article that is postive about racing and post it up with COLOR CODE.. and address it to me..

Nothing in that poll you posted is translating to the reality on the ground. As positive as it is...... without knowing the internal specifics, its virtually meanless anyway.

03-22-2005, 08:20 AM

PA did the same to me. He asked what I would do, so I gave some suggestions, then nothing. So why ask?

Suff

03-22-2005, 08:31 AM

I tell him no one is making money.. nothing

I tell him the TV coverage is tiny... nothing

I tell him the people who work in the game are DIRT poor.... nothing

I tell him that cheating is damaging .......................nothing

I tell Him that its demographic are terrible...................nothing

I tell him we've gotten .005% of a 2800% increase ...........nothing

I tell him other gaming business's are groing 600% in 12 months.......nothing

Then this article and he finds his voice.

joeprunes

03-22-2005, 10:17 AM

All I know after 50+yrs of horse racing, All of the old timers say its dying. 20yrs ago there was alot of younger guys playing ,I dont see them any more. You say more money is bet, sure people are making more money so they bet more money so you get larger wagered on. I can only give you my opinion of what I`ve seen over the last 50 yrs....jp

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 10:18 AM

PA did the same to me. He asked what I would do, so I gave some suggestions, then nothing. So why ask?

I agreed with everything you wrote, and in a subsequent longer reply, I also said we needed more state of the art info. What were you expecting?

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 10:19 AM

Ok.. Your getting cute...

Why did you post that directly to me, and color code it...

Isn't it obvious? It's because you and CJ and myself were the main players in this discussion. Why did you take it as an offense?

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 10:21 AM

Figman

03-22-2005, 10:43 AM

This thread I started has become unraveled!

Suff

03-22-2005, 10:48 AM

I posted a very nice reply on what I thought would benefit racing and make it more popular. I guess you both (CJ and Suff) missed it. I heard no comments from either of you. But I didn't go lamenting about it like CJ has.

I'm done. You're both close minded. You call me biased? If I'm biased, then you're both biased as well, only in the opposite direction, but you're both too blind and deaf to sense it.

Have fun. I never said racing was as healthy as it could be, but thanks for taking the time and giving my opinion some respect. I've gotten no respect from either of you on this thread, and you expect me to treat you with same. Like I said, have fun.

What Can I say... I think racing is in a disgusting state... I really do.

I was trying to get you to ?? agree with me? I don't know ? maybe.

But you irratated me with your insistence it wasn't. Then you outright "Gas'd" me when posted an article that gives the impression it is the fastest growing sport in the world.

I over reacted..and I apologize.

You know what part of it is for me Mike?

I'm actually thinking of Giving it up.... Racing... Gambling. I have been for months now. I'm personally struggling with what effect that would have on my life because it is such a HUGE part of what I do and who I am , and who my freinds are... So thats a Double apology for taking that on you as well.

But I do think Racing is in Trouble. I want to leave it to the Guys in That "enough is enough " thread at Thorograph

I want to leave it to the guys that say..

'You'll never do well at this game until you take it as a Business"

I want to leave it to the DATA Crunchers who turn this into a Partime JOB rather than an enjoyable diversion from the real Job of of life

I've had my fill of the people who are too F'ing smart to enjoy themselves. And insist on being the smartest guy in the room...

The cheating

The takeout

The whole thing is getting to me.

Storm Cadet

03-22-2005, 01:49 PM

Suff....come on down to the Big Apple...we'll hang at The Big A...relax...handicap on the fly...watch the opening weekend of baseball Sox-Yanks on the tube...visit the horses at the barn...smoke some cigars!
:cool:

Horse racing the way it ought to be! A diversion and recreation!

03-22-2005, 02:32 PM

I agreed with everything you wrote, and in a subsequent longer reply, I also said we needed more state of the art info. What were you expecting?

Sorry, i did miss it. I'm usually in bed when a lot of threads really grow, so I do miss them sometimes. Is their an emoticon for walking away with my tail between my legs? Insert it here!

PaceAdvantage

03-22-2005, 02:41 PM

That's ok...you guys both know I still love ya! :p

Suff

03-22-2005, 02:56 PM

any Book yet?

Glitchy

03-22-2005, 09:28 PM

Pardon my naivete in front of so many people with much more experience in this game than I have.

As a "stats" guy, I love the game for the "freedom of analysis" it offers. Is Joe Takich wrong? I guess not - I assume he wins, though try as I might I can't tell one "short walking horse from another". How about guys that only bet to win or only bet exotics or only bet Pick 3's - are they wrong? No. that's the beauty of the Sport. Take good notes, bet what you're good at and you can win.

What we are all fighting is a 15 to 25% house edge. I'm sure I'm treading on old ground here - I am new to the group - but damn that's a huge take. Hell, any nimrod can learn BJ basic strategy and cut the house edge to a few percent.

Let's get real here fellas. If we were pure gamblers, we would not pick this sport to earn a living at.

That being said, it is freaking galling to see a 20% edge to the house. My home track of Tampa set a new record this Sat. with a handle of almost 7 MM (for those of you that think the sport is dead, I disagree, but that is another post).

Can we change it? Not if tracks are setting record handles. Can we "boycott" high take tracks? Most likely not - we are a very fractured and indepedant bunch. But if we could (and here is my pipe dream) control 5-10% of revenue, we might "could change the world".

<Insert some freaking Celine Dion I will overcome song here>

Glitchy

Dave Schwartz

03-22-2005, 11:14 PM

Hell, any nimrod can learn BJ basic strategy and cut the house edge to a few percent.

LOL - Not when I dealt. <G>

Dave

Lasix1

03-23-2005, 10:51 PM

All I know after 50+yrs of horse racing, All of the old timers say its dying.
The old timers in most areas of life say everything is dying.
It's what old timers do best.... ;)

PaceAdvantage

03-24-2005, 04:07 AM

BTW, I just caught the MBNA credit card commercial which compares NASCAR to the Kentucky Derby, and has a funny little bit with NASCAR stars trying to ride Thoroughbred racehorses at Churchill Downs....(at least I think it was Churchill).

Interesting, considering VISA is the sponsor of that race....LOL

Well, there you go....at least Madison Avenue thinks Thoroughbred Horse Racing is a vibrant enough sport to feature in a major advertisement.

Hosshead

03-24-2005, 05:09 AM

BTW, I just caught the MBNA credit card commercial which compares NASCAR to the Kentucky Derby,...
Interesting, considering VISA is the sponsor of that race....LOL

.
I wonder,.. if P.Val were to ride in the Derby, could Visa stop him from advertising MBNA credit cards on his pants ? Or would the two companys get into a bidding war on ebay? :D

Suff

03-24-2005, 07:22 AM

That being said, it is freaking galling to see a 20% edge to the house. My home track of Tampa set a new record this Sat. with a handle of almost 7 MM (for those of you that think the sport is dead, I disagree, but that is another post).

Glitchy

I've been playing Tampa for 2 years. I like it. The mess that is Gulfstream has contributed to its success. but still its a decent Product. I have a few friends from Suffolk Downs that are there this winter.

Its hard to contrast the postive news that people are posting, with the reality of whats happening on the ground. I know Tampa is one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and with Gulfstreams problems, that may have more to do with the Better handle than a sharp spike in Interest. But thats not important anyway. They're doing well and thats great. That Handle record they broke was only about 3 weeks old.. They just broke the old record a few weeks ago, and that record beat a record that was only a year old. So Tampa is Hot in more ways than one.

Your post was good. You seem like a sensible guy with an honest take on things.