Wag the Dog [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

hcap

03-12-2005, 07:12 AM

This administration has advanced information manipulation ala George Orwell.

http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1316359.htm

The study also supports certain theories about the formation of false memories, says Lewandowsky.

"The constant hinting at WMDs was sufficient to make some people believe that they have been found," he says.

Lewandowsky says the study confirmed previous findings that around 30% of US respondents say weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq since the war started.

By contrast, he says, only 17% of Australians and only 5% of Germans believe this was the case.

"Given that that is in fact not true, given that none has ever been discovered, we would classify those responses as a false memory," says Lewandowsky.

The downing of Saddam's statue was a crock. The Jessica Lynch "story" was a crock. Now it seems capturing Saddam was a crock. If you believe the party line on why we invaded after these "press releases", you are in la la land.

:sleeping:

sq764

03-12-2005, 08:18 AM

Hcap, with your interest in propaganda, here's a good book for ya..

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684852314/104-9503600-3131143

46zilzal

03-12-2005, 08:25 AM

Ride of Paul Revere based MOSTLY on Longfellow's poem and NOT the truth.

Marines rasing the flag on Mt. Suribachi: staged by Joe Rosenthal was it?

Gulf of Tonkien (spelling?) incident: phoney or at least blown WAY out of proportion.

Washington and the cherry tree: pure baloney...or how about his WOODEN dentures?

Figman

03-12-2005, 08:49 AM

Hcap
Posted by PA in another thread-
The stewards are listed every day in the track program:

Dr. W. Theodore Hill - The Jockey Club
David Hicks - NYRA
Carmine Donofrio - NY State Racing and Wagering Board
Stephen Lewandowski - Alternate State Steward

Is the scientist listed in your linked story, Stephen Lewandowski and the steward listed by PA in the Aqu 9th race thread in the handicapping section one and the same????????????

hcap

03-12-2005, 09:02 AM

SQ, I say bush, you say clinton.

You say lying about a bj, I say lying about a war.
By the way, propaganda did not originate with either. Just that the bushies seem to have advanced the art to a new level.

Remember the spanish american war?

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0215-22.htm

" One hundred years ago, industrial America was awash in textiles, steel and manufactured goods and needed to expand its markets across the Pacific to Asia. Spain, by then a corrupt, weakened empire, possessed colonies America coveted – Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines. To get those assets, President William McKinley began a campaign of propaganda centered on America’s need to “free the Cuban people from Spanish tyranny.” With the assistance of the mass media of the day – William Randolph Hurst and Joseph Pulitzer – McKinley convinced Americans Spain was an imminent threat (just ninety miles from our shores), possessed weapons of mass destruction (Spanish warships), and it was America’s duty to spread freedom and democracy throughout the world (manifest destiny). To strengthen his argument, McKinley announced to Congress that he “got to his knees” in the White House and received God’s assurance that American expansionism was heaven sent. The 1898 Spanish/American War and ensuing Philippine Campaign bolstered American business, secured American colonies in the Caribbean and Pacific and cost the lives of six-hundred thousand innocent Filipinos who happened to be in the path of the “bandwagon of Anglo-Saxon progress and decency.”

Or howbout?

From....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda#History_of_propaganda

"Propaganda techniques were first codified and applied in a scientific manner by journalist Walter Lippman and psychologist Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) early in the 20th century. During World War I, Lippman and Bernays were hired by the United States President, Woodrow Wilson to participate in the Creel Commission, the mission of which was to sway popular opinion to enter the war on the side of Britain.

The war propaganda campaign of Lippman and Bernays produced within six months so intense an anti-German hysteria as to permanently impress American business (and Adolf Hitler, among others) with the potential of large-scale propaganda to control public opinion. Bernays coined the terms "group mind" and "engineering consent," important concepts in practical propaganda work.

The current public relations industry is a direct outgrowth of Lippman and Bernays' work and is still used extensively by the United States government. For the first half of the 20th century Bernays and Lippman themselves ran a very successful public relations firm.

World War II saw continued use of propaganda as a weapon of war, both by Hitler's propagandist Joseph Goebbels and the British Political Warfare Executive."

Go down the page and check out "Techniques of propaganda generation"
Seems to have worked for george.

In fact most of the lemmings on this board have bought into the current bs, sold to the country using these very same techniques.

Some of which are:

1-Appeal to fear
2-Appeal to authority
3-Bandwagon
4-Glittering generalities
5-Oversimplification

Of course we are not alone in using propaganda. Just that good ole' american know-how has enlisted psychological techniques originally designed to sell you a particular brand of toothpaste. Madison ave, and the pentagon, were joined at the hip. And you bought it. Whiter teeth? I doubt it.

Fig--

"Is the scientist listed in your linked story, Stephen Lewandowski and the steward listed by PA in the Aqu 9th race thread in the handicapping section one and the same????????????"

Could be. Tell ya what. Check with faux news. They know a hell of alot bout false assertions. They is real good at da truth

:sleeping:

hcap

03-12-2005, 09:43 AM

What would the bush knee jerkers have believed after reading articles like these?

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Images/MaineHeadline2.gif

"Publisher William Randolph Hearst had instructed hie photpgraphers: "You furnish the pictures...I'll furnish the war!" Looking at these headlines it is obvious that Hearst, and his competitor Pulitzer, published information that they could not back up. This influenced Americans to push for war with Spain. This biased and irresponsible reporting is known a yellow journalism. It is clear that the so called "yellow press" was deeply involved in pushing the US into war."

The yellow press has only become more sophisticated. Now images are conjured up in minutes to support the prevailing authorities.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/images/CHALIB~1.gif

sq764

03-12-2005, 10:20 AM

Maybe Bush was in the grassy knoll too :D :D :D

At least dumb ole Bush has you guys scrambling to debunk everything he does.. It's kind of comical..

hcap

03-12-2005, 10:50 AM

Maybe Bush was in the grassy knoll too????

Maybe one of his ancestors drew this?

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Images/spwar.gif

"This drawing shows Uncle Sam angrily raising the flag towards the star that says "Free Cuba." Underneath his outstretched hand is the sinking USS Maine and on the desk, under a sword, is a Joint Resolution of Congress. Guess what it would be a resolution for... WAR!

This original drawing expresses the angry end of restraint on the part of U.S. authorities and the public at the war's outbreak."

Once again, the two dominant causes for war intervention are depicted as Cuban freedom and the destruction of the Maine. C. G. Bush was the influential and bellicose star cartoonist of The World, which sometimes published his editorial cartoons on the front page.

:rolleyes:

Tom

03-12-2005, 10:59 AM

Again I point you to the "Moon Landing"

How did they get by the Van Allen belt?

Suspenders.

Tom

03-12-2005, 11:02 AM

What is all this talk about "yellow press?"
I thought Dan Rather retired????

lsbets

03-12-2005, 11:51 AM

More leftist elitism from hcap:

"In fact most of the lemmings on this board have bought into the current bs, sold to the country using these very same techniques."

So, those of us who do not buy into his grand conspiracy theories and who believe that it is a good thing that a movement for democracy appears to be taking root in the Middle East are lemmings, fools who do not have the intellectual capacity of a man as gifted as hcap.

If anyone wonders why the left costs the democratic party more votes every year, he is a perfect example. And speaking of propoganda - change that avatar, you've had it long enough. It could almost be called child abuse using that poor girl's picture to make some profound point that she would be too young to understand. Shame on you exploiting children in such a shameless manner. :D

Tom

03-12-2005, 11:57 AM

I always get a kick out of Hcap calling people lemmings when he has not had an original thought in years and uses links and qoutes to have other's do his taling for him. Good assessment of why the dems are such dire straits as a party - with this kind of loser running things, they cannot be taken as seriously as Looney Tunes.
Lemmings? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Suff

03-12-2005, 12:13 PM

Chalibi is the guy I've mentioned many times. He sat behind Laura Bush at the State of the Union address 2 years ago... Shortly thereafter was deemed a Double agent for the Iraniian Govt. His offices in Iraq were raided by the Marines.... and he was scuttled out of the country.

Not sure where that fits in to Hcap points.. But what I am saying is KNOWN facts.. not conspiiracy

hcap

03-12-2005, 03:52 PM

http://100777.com/doc/576

As Suff says "KNOWN facts.. not conspiiracy"

"Truth from These Podia: Summary of a Study of Strategic Influence, Perception Management, Strategic Information Warfare and Strategic Psychological Operations in Gulf II" identifies more than 50 stories about the Iraq war that were faked by government propaganda artists in a covert campaign to "market" the military invasion of Iraq.

Gardiner has credentials. He has taught at the National War College, the Air War College and the Naval Warfare College and was a visiting scholar at the Swedish Defense College.

Gardiner's dogged research identified a long list of stories that passed through Rumsfeld's propaganda mill. According to Gardiner, "there were over 50 stories manufactured or at least engineered that distorted the picture of Gulf II for the American and British people." Those stories include:

* The link between terrorism, Iraq and 9/11
* Iraqi agents meeting with 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta
* Iraq's possession of chemical and biological weapons.
* Iraq's purchase of nuclear materials from Niger.
* Saddam Hussein's development of nuclear weapons.
* Aluminum tubes for nuclear weapons
* The existence of Iraqi drones, WMD cluster bombs and Scud missiles.
* Iraq's threat to target the US with cyber warfare attacks.
* The rescue of Pvt. Jessica Lynch.
* The surrender of a 5,000-man Iraqi brigade.
* Iraq executing Coalition POWs.
* Iraqi soldiers dressing in US and UK uniforms to commit atrocities.
* The exact location of WMD facilities
* WMDs moved to Syria.

Every one of these stories received extensive publicity and helped form indelible public impressions of the "enemy" and the progress of the invasion. Every one of these stories was false.

lsbets,
I believe you were sent to Iraq under false pretenses. If you believe this is "leftist elitism" so be it. Iraq would not be the first time a war was manufactured for reasons other than claimed.

If Democracy occurs, it will be in spite of our invasion, not because of it.
http://www.juancole.com/2005/03/hundreds-of-thousands-of-shiites-stage.html

My avatar reflects a truth some military type minds caught in justifications for unnecesary violence, would find difficult to resolve. I believe in war as a last resort only. George Bush and his posse believe otherwise. An overly simplistic good vs evil world view tends to smooth out a nagging troubling conscience Most of us are all born with a conscience. Takes some doing to turn down its volume. Think of my avatar as a reminder.

Child abuse?

How about the innocent Iraqi children killed and maimed by this war. Or the children of american soldiers lost or severly wounded? This was an uneccesary war.

PaceAdvantage

03-12-2005, 04:01 PM

War is never necessary. There are always alternatives. War is more palatable than many of these alternatives, but it is never "necessary"

Secretariat

03-12-2005, 04:36 PM

Hcap,

Thanks. The Spanish American War comparision was interesting.

The photo of the Saddam statue being toppling by Chalabi's men though is disturbing. If the American public was manipulated by that as a directive by the WH it represents one of the most deceptive acts of an adminstrative ever because of it's implications and may very well be grounds for impeachment. Proving it is another thing however.

I have seen the empty square photo before. I don't understand why the press has not investigated or covered this. And I am surprised more investigative journalism was not applied to interview the men involved especially if they have connections to Chalabi.

I guess my question is why were these men left into this area, or did they sneak in? How could the military tell they might not be dangers to the hotel itself being that close? A lot of unanswered questions without any media followup.

hcap

03-12-2005, 05:13 PM

Sec,

I was home the day Saddams' statue was "liberated". Working on my computer with the tv in the background.

It was covered by almost all channels as a spontaneous outburst of the Iraqi people. No long shots. Only in your face close ups. It continued to echo around the airwaves for days. I think the press particularly at that time of embeds/inbeds, was just fed this crock by a controlling whitehouse press machine. Chalabi had a powerful influence on the neo-cons and my guess is that he was part and parcel of the charade. This is just one of many in our face news manipulations. The unending hype of WMDs, and Al Queda connections to Saddam. The photo op on the Lincoln. The false testimony of Powell at the UN. The totally exagerated Jessica Lynch drama. The smooth transfer of war rationale as each of bushs previous rationale proved untenable. Now we are bringing democracy to the world? And Saddam not caught in his famed "spider hole"? Doesn't anyone remember the chain of events that brought us to this point in history? It would seem the bush knee jerkers bought the fabled bridge hook line and sinker.

The Ministry of Truth ala 1984. A bit less blatant, but pretty subtle

By the way during the first gulf war the Iraqi soldiers stealing Kuwaiti incubators and tossing out the infants was another crock. Similar to the WW1 stories of german soldiers killing babies, put out by the british propaganda hacks.

Propaganda is more subtle than it used to be mostly because it is a multi media event. Images, slogans, are subliminal as well as loud. And buttons to be pushed are better understood

ljb

03-12-2005, 05:21 PM

Hcap,
You are like a breath of fresh air in this polluted environment of brainwashed dolts. Thank you and carry on !

Suff

03-12-2005, 05:28 PM

War is never necessary. There are always alternatives. War is more palatable than many of these alternatives, but it is never "necessary"

True,,, But lets not forget...and simply gloss over we went to war on innacurate intelligence. Thats a Big deal. Yes... we're accomplishing good for individuals in Iraq... and the greater middle east.

But lets not as a country... Just say.. Oh we are freeing a bunch of people and that makes everything we did, or do , ok. Because it doesn't. And if you were a guy with a family, minding his business, living a decent life, caring for his children, working hard... and a country started reigning down bombs on you and all you love... would you be an Insurgent or a pro-british allly (forget the US)... lets talk Britian. If Your a Hard working Iraqi, with a wife and kids, doing well, and ENGLAND started reigning down Bombs on Your MOMMA, on your KIDS... ...Where would you land? Would you be "Pro-Invader" and start Ratting-Out all your neighbors who oppose the invasion? Or would you be an insurgent?.

Me.. I'd be an isurgent... No doubt in my Mind. I'm not going to stand by and let ENGLAND Invade MASSACHUSETTS!!! and start ratting out my Church members....and letting all I worked for be stripped away because ENGlAND didn't like George Washington or George Bush... or whomever

I'm not talking POLITICS!!!!!!! I'm talking HUMAN... People.. Lives, children, jobs, ...

Suff

03-12-2005, 05:37 PM

and I know Everyone had the same intelligence..adn I know he violated UN Resolutions to disarm.. and I now he waged war on 3 countrys...and I know he was a Potential threat.to us....and I now he was a bad guy....and I know he killed innocent people...and I know all that... I know it all. OK... so don't cloud the point. I'm not talking about Saddam Hussien,,

I'm talking about an IRAQ Firefighter in Southern IRAQ,,,who just worked hard and minded his own business.. everything was A-OK to him..

He had a wife, a Job, 3 kids, a Mosque, friends, Played Soccer on the weekends, ... Just was living...

Then one day here come the Bombs... Maybe his Mom is Killed as a collateral Damage ?(happens everyday)... so if you were that guy,,, would you be passing out Candy to the British?

Because if he opposes the invasion.. FOX NEWS calls him a TERRORIST!!

Poor bastard.. Fighting fires, raising a family, minding his own business.. he had no idea he was an EVIL TERRORIST>.. England had to bomb him for him to find out

46zilzal

03-12-2005, 05:41 PM

Ecuador invades your country. Who do you think you would want OUT? Ecuadoreans of course! Sitting on every corner with machines of war, taking over your country and forcing a new way of life on you?

I would bomb, cajole, eject, disrespect, belittle, irridicate, vomit upon, yell at all those nasty Equadoreans until they were all dead or gone. That is simple human nature

Suff

03-12-2005, 05:44 PM

That was an IS a MAJOR reason for our 2nd amendment....

Everyone had a GUN.... When the enemy came... SHOOT HIM!!

Read the 2nd amendment.. it was not about HUNTING!! It was about Defending what was yours!!

hcap

03-12-2005, 05:49 PM

A further reminder of casualities of War

http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/mortality_before_and_after_2003_invasion_of_Iraq.h tm

...Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal.

...Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led invasion last year, according to public health experts who estimate there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months.

...The US-based researchers found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

...The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by US air strikes on towns and cities, they said.

...The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Mr Roberts said.

Oh yeah one more

Philippine-American War
1899-1902

CASUALTY FIGURES:

U.S.-- 4,234 dead and 2,818 wounded.

Philippines-- 20,000 military dead and 200,000 civilian dead. (approximate numbers). Some historians place the numbers of civilian dead at 500,000 or higher.

So we made the Philippines safe for democracy as well?

sq764

03-12-2005, 05:57 PM

Hcap,
You are like a breath of fresh air in this polluted environment of brainwashed dolts. Thank you and carry on !
I think it's clear you're the dolt, not everyone else you are trying to insult..

Why don't you three go in a room and agree with each other. No one else wants to hear it obviously.

46zilzal

03-12-2005, 06:02 PM

I think it's clear you're the dolt, not everyone else you are trying to insult..
Why don't you three go in a room and agree with each other. No one else wants to hear it obviously.

Isn't it interesting when someone disagrees they get insulted rather than simply disagreed with?

Find a sustainable contrary position and just support it...... that would be really refreshing.

Suff

03-12-2005, 06:19 PM

Isn't it interesting when someone disagrees they get insulted rather than simply disagreed with?

Find a sustainable contrary position and just support it...... that would be really refreshing.

Zilzal, et al...

Why do you bother?...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11913
8 Months ago SQ told us he wasn't even poltically active.. and had no strong views on Politics what so ever... Matter of fact.. he stated he hadn't even voted in the two previous elections... And said he had no right to Comment on either Bush or Clinton.. and said he was voting for Bush simply because he didn't like Kerry.

Then of course , Bush won...and you know the rest. Bandwagon bullshit artist.

hcap

03-12-2005, 06:23 PM

On another thread ljb asked you
Sq,
Flying two planes into the wtc killed a couple thousand civilians. Do you know how many civilians have been killed in Iraq? Equate that. Now that you saw the figures from The Lancet, don't you find it difficult to balance lifes? And since there was no connection of Iraq to 911, or Saddam to Al Queda, or that there were never WMDs, isn't it particulary difficult to be so smug towards anyone who disagrees with the party line?

BTW, the support for this war is at an all time low. Shove bushs mandate up HIS neo-con butt. Shortly thereafter send in dick-head cheyny searching for it. I'm sure he is familar with the territory.

:bang:

Tom

03-12-2005, 06:30 PM

Suff

03-12-2005, 06:37 PM

I would be more concerned about the firemen in NYC who were murdered by terrorists. When the crap comes pouring out of the middle east, we have a right to take action. And we have. Nowhere near enough, IMHO. Nowhere near enough.

Tom

Iraq had Nothing to do with 9-11. Why is that so hard for you to understand or say? What is your thinking that anyone and everyone on a continent gets hungup because 16 guys from Saudi Arabia hijacked 4 planes?

IRAQ had nothing to do with 9-11. Nothing

PaceAdvantage

03-13-2005, 04:43 AM

Tom

Iraq had Nothing to do with 9-11. Why is that so hard for you to understand or say? What is your thinking that anyone and everyone on a continent gets hungup because 16 guys from Saudi Arabia hijacked 4 planes?

IRAQ had nothing to do with 9-11. Nothing

Bullshit. And that's my opinion. No need to reply. You can't tell me that at some point in time, Saddam Hussein NEVER gave any sort of aid and comfort to Al-Queda (however you spell it these days).

I refuse to believe he's never helped them in any way during the planning of attacks on American soil. And if he has ever helped them, even in the slightest way, then the "nothing to do with 9/11" claim is bogus.

PaceAdvantage

03-13-2005, 04:48 AM

I'm talking about an IRAQ Firefighter in Southern IRAQ,,,who just worked hard and minded his own business.. everything was A-OK to him..

Why do you continue to insult my intelligence. You need two or three posts to point out the obvious? Of course the man in your example is not going to embrace British and American forces.

But for every man like him, I bet you can find someone who IS happy to see something being done about what was going on in Iraq. Many, many times when I see Iraqis being interviewed on TV, almost to a man, they always say that they are GLAD Saddam Hussein is GONE. They also say they want the occupying forces out of their country....NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!! Of course they want the occupying forces out, so that they can get on with running their country!!! I'd feel the same way.

And that's exactly what is going to happen. And that's why so many people turned out to VOTE in the elections.

Secretariat

03-13-2005, 07:10 AM

hcap

03-13-2005, 08:36 AM

The intelligence info pre-war turns out was not a "slam-dunk". Of course many of us pre-war raised the point that it WAS exagerated, and to wait and see what the Un inspectors turned up. Remember it was less than 3 months from the SOTU to invasion. The majority of the rest of the world-governments, and enormous number of world and american protestors, asked that we wait. A rush to war clouded the issues. And as we know now, those who protested were right.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/iraqd?pid=2588

"THE BACK BURNER: Last July, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released a 511-page report into how the intelligence community erroneously assessed Saddam Hussein's nonexistent weapons of mass production programs and relationship to Al Qaeda. However, it wasn't complete. Committee members opted to defer inquiry into the politically hazardous questions of how accurately the Bush administration represented the intelligence it possessed on Iraq to the Congress and the public and how appropriately administration policymakers influenced the assessment and presentation of intelligence products within the government until after the November election

hcap

03-13-2005, 09:07 AM

I guess the bushies will provide us with another rationale fairly soon.

Maybe it's about time we controlled the region militarily? Sounds about right

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050310/nick.jpg

lsbets

03-13-2005, 09:09 AM

"and we now know those who protested were right"

Guess I missed the memo on that one. With what might be a massive change in direction spreading throughout the middle east, editorials from the left and even John Stewart have recently mused "What if all this works and it's because of Bush?" You should be asking yourself that hcap.

ljb

03-13-2005, 09:49 AM

This thread reminds me of one of Bush's first lies prior to his appointment to the presidency way back in 2000. He said he was not going to be a nation builder. I tell you, don't believe a thing the neocons say. When the truth comes out you will feel foolish.

sq764

03-13-2005, 10:21 AM

Zilzal, et al...

Then of course , Bush won...and you know the rest. Bandwagon bullshit artist.
Dude, you're an f-ing drunk, druggie clown. Go hug a tree.

sq764

03-13-2005, 10:23 AM

Isn't it interesting when someone disagrees they get insulted rather than simply disagreed with?.
You are absolutely right, why did LJB call people 'brainwashed dolts'? I have been wondering the same thing..

sq764

03-13-2005, 10:25 AM

Equineer

03-13-2005, 10:44 AM

Suff,

Yes, this is a tough crowd to educate. :)

There are neo-cons, and then there are neo-con dupes.

However, I don't think even the WH neo-cons still try to characterize Saddam and bin Laden as allies.

Only neo-con dupes persist in the belief that there was any tie between Saddam's Baathist regime and 9/11.

Indeed, Saddam and his Baathists topped bin Laden's list of Middle East enemies because they suppressed non-secular Muslim fundamentalism more brutally and effectively than any other Arab regime.

Now that we have toppled Saddam, the Saudi regime is apparently at the top of al-Qaeda's Middle East hit list.

One bitter irony is that the Iraqi election results have alarmed Israel and the Arab nations that we "nominally" count as friends. While Israel and most Arab regimes were opposed to Saddam, no one expected the U.S. to knuckle under to the demands of the Kurdish nationalists and to the Shiite religious edicts of Ali al-Sistani, who is after all an Iranian citizen.

Hussein Hindawi, the head of Iraq's electoral commission, once walked 14 days to escape capture and torture by Saddam. He is hopeful but realistic about the emergence of a sustainable secular democracy in Iraq.

"It will take generations to spread real democracy in Iraq," Hindawi told Reuters. "You must understand that Iraqis wanted democracy for years but Saddam destroyed everything. You can't expect it to happen quickly. Look at Europe. It took them many years as well."

"It will take time because there has been a gap of many years of dictatorship for Iraqis who last remember a type of democracy from 1928-1958, a copy of the British system."

But Hindawi said Iraq's democratic drive was vulnerable in a region where many dictators win 99 percent of the vote in elections condemned by human rights groups.

"Now dictators in Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other states are a threat to Iraq. They don't like to see democracy and elections next door. This is worrying."

Moreover, the two factions which won the Iraq election by a landslide have avowed and long-standing objectives that are opposed by the United States, Israel, and most of Iraq's Arab neighbors... with the exception of Iran's Shiites and the Kurdish expatriates who fled Iraq.

When all the original justifications for invading Iraq evaporated, democratic elections became the mantra of U.S. neo-cons. However, many Middle East experts point out that the election results have painted the U.S. into a very uncomfortable corner. The Kurds and Shiites can be expected to exploit the situation by milking the U.S. for many more billions in reconstruction aid while we provide military protection against all the internal and external factions which oppose their ultimate objectives.

In a curious mixture of optimism and cynicism, many political analysts believe the best hope for a graceful U.S. exit from Iraq will be to employ a covert strategy that has worked to our advantage in other Middle East nations. That strategy is to facilitate (and even foster) among Kurdish and Shiite leaders enough economic corruption to sever them from the objectives of the nationalist and religious factions that now "democratically" empower them.

sq764

03-13-2005, 10:47 AM

Suff,

Yes, this is a tough crowd to educate. :)

I think part of your and Suff's problem is that you are under the impression that you have the answers. I guess it's that type of false arrogance that keeps you on the losing end. Keep it up :D :D

ljb

03-13-2005, 11:24 AM

Hcap,
Truth be known these neocons don't want to know the truth. Educating them is beyond anyones capability.

Equineer

03-13-2005, 11:33 AM

I think part of your and Suff's problem is that you are under the impression that you have the answers. I guess it's that type of false arrogance that keeps you on the losing end. Keep it up :D :DSuff's link to your May 2004 post was quite revealing. :)

There, you admit to political ignorance and even acknowledge that you didn't vote in 1996 or 2000!

From you biographical anecdotes, this really implies that you knew you were clueless through all the years you were under 30.

Have you been living at a Sylvan Learning Center for the past 10 months?

I've got news for you... we know you are still clueless, and that suggests you probably stayed home on November 2, 2004.

Tom

03-13-2005, 11:34 AM

Well, seems the libs are the ones who are stuck in stupid to me. And, since they are the clear minority no tonly on this board but in the country as a whole, we don't have to worry about educating them. They have Howard Dean at the helm now, so like SH, they too are no longer a threat. :jump:

ljb

03-13-2005, 11:39 AM

sq764

03-13-2005, 11:44 AM

Suff's link to your May 2004 post was quite revealing. :)

There, you admit to political ignorance and even acknowledge that you didn't vote in 1996 or 2000!

From you biographical anecdotes, this really implies that you knew you were clueless through all the years you were under 30.

Have you been living at a Sylvan Learning Center for the past 10 months?

I've got news for you... we know you are still clueless, and that suggests you probably stayed home on November 2, 2004.
I really think you are intimidated by people that don't agree with your jaded thought process.. Most Dems are. And your only resort is to try the juvenile barbs about my age or the Syvan Learning Center or this or that or whatever.. It's kind of sad that people like you feel this inadequate.

PS - Why did you get thrown off the PA list before? I wasn't here for that. Please explain..

sq764

03-13-2005, 11:46 AM

Come on now Tom,
Tell us how you like the neocons immigration policies. We all know that you are one of the few from the right on this board that has shown any sign of having a clear head and the ability to think for yourself. Don't hide that wisdom under a bushel, come out and shine. :jump:
You'd think with all your brilliant minds on the Dem side versus all the mindless morons on the Republican side, you'd have been able to figure out a way to beat moron George Bush!! Yet, here we are..

Suff

03-13-2005, 11:49 AM

You'd think with all your brilliant minds on the Dem side versus all the mindless morons on the Republican side, you'd have been able to figure out a way to beat moron George Bush!! Yet, here we are..

Survivor? You up for it? PA mentioned it a few weeks ago... That it might be time for one. I agree. Lets have a survivor contest. Me and you. I win, you screw, You win, I screw.

Tom

03-13-2005, 12:08 PM

Suff

03-13-2005, 12:23 PM

Bullshit. And that's my opinion. No need to reply. You can't tell me that at some point in time, Saddam Hussein NEVER gave any sort of aid and comfort to Al-Queda (however you spell it these days).

I refuse to believe he's never helped them in any way during the planning of attacks on American soil. And if he has ever helped them, even in the slightest way, then the "nothing to do with 9/11" claim is bogus.

Other than anecdotal examples like Zaquiri (he's Jordinian) having Medicall work done in Fallujah... Yes. Thats my posistion. That on the list of Countries actively involved in supporting Fundemental Islam.. Iraq was way down on the list. 20th I suppose. In fact, Iraq was the most secular country in the Middle East and Alqueda supported overthrowing him in favor of a theocratic form of Govt. The Middle East, when one is properly documented, is relatively easy to navigate in and around. I'm sure they are many examples of Hezbollah and others convening in Iraq. I don't deny that the Fundementalists are very fluid on the borders and things probably did take place. I just don't believe its accurate to simply say 9/11/01 and Iraq in the same vien. It just doesn't work.

Regarding my example... Its a MUST that we look at everything we do in a critical eye. In my own life, and in your life, we both have things we like about ourselves and things we don't. Of course we need to embrace what is good.. but also be honest with what is not.. or could be improved. Thats a Functioning healthy person. Of course I want a resounding Military, poltical and economic victory in Iraq. But I think its important as citizens that we be honest that serious intelligence errors were made. And also that our post invasion planning was poorly drafted and executed. Resulting in a lot of pain on both sides.

I find... in my travels, that many Amerucans don't want to talk about those things. They want to hang thier hat on Statements that you made. That sometime, somewhere, an Al Quaeda member had a Ham Sandwich in Iraq.

Suff

03-13-2005, 12:40 PM

I really think you are intimidated by people that don't agree with your jaded thought process.. Most Dems are. And your only resort is to try the juvenile barbs about my age or the Syvan Learning Center or this or that or whatever.. It's kind of sad that people like you feel this inadequate.

PS - Why did you get thrown off the PA list before? I wasn't here for that. Please explain..

I think its fantastic that you've become more aware of your poltical environment. I really do. Not just for you. But mostly for your Kid. My Family had Loooong Potical discussions around the Dinner table as Kids. Both my Mom and Dad were Newspaper Junkies.. and Poltical junkies. And it definately shaped my life. I'm very Grateful to them. I think in another 8-10 years when your kid gets older.. You'll be able to provide him/her with valueable wisdom. Because to know a Litte piece of the world is to know yourself.

What Happened? I called you a clown 2 or 3 monnths ago when you pissed me off, and you were devasated? And you've never gotten over it? Boy do I ever regret that Comment. Not because Your not a clown,, You are. I just wish I kept it to myself. Because I cannot get you off my ass..and your starting to irritate me. Before that.. you were my Red sox buddy, sending me PM's for Hotel reccomendations in Boston... ..But I guess I hurt your feelings and now you hate me. lol. I wish I never said that...Cuz..Your constant busting of my Balls really sucks and I don't want to be around it. Thats why I suggested and want to have a Survivor contest. I'm done putting up with you.

The post I put up about you not even caring about Poltics either way,,, as recently as 8 months ago.. Is an attempt to get you to stfu. Your a begginer, a novice. A guy mentioned the other day about Dodging Bullets in Korea in 1950 and you thought he might be smuggling prostitutes... No Scott. We had a war there. So... Your not as smart or up on things like you'd like to think you are....

But Like I said.. I think its a good thing that you have a newfound enthusiasim for politics. I just don't want to endure you while your in the "On the Job" Training phase.

If Anything, I like when you post. It proves my point that a substanial chunk of Bush supporters are unknowing, poltical novices who base thier votes on little or no understanding. If I were Republican I'd cringe when you post.

sq764

03-13-2005, 12:45 PM

Because I cannot get you off my ass..and your starting to irritate me.

You responded to my post in this thread, so initiating it is certainly a way to get someone off your ass.. Brilliant.

sq764

03-13-2005, 12:47 PM

A guy mentioned the other day about Dodging Bullets in Korea in 1950 and you thought he might be smuggling prostitutes... No Scott. we had a war there. So... Your not as smart or up on things like you'd like to think you are....

It was a joke, related to the initial post in the thread.. But why would you take the time to figure that out?

I think the bong smoke is really affecting your abillity to reason. When you can't even 'get' the easiest of posts, you make yourself look like quite an ass.

sq764

03-13-2005, 12:51 PM

If Anything, I like when you post. It proves my point that a substanial chunk of Bush supporters are unknowing, poltical novices who base thier votes on little or no understanding. If I were Republican I'd cringe when you post.
There's that false arrogance again :-)... You are consistent, I will give you that.

Maybe if/when you guys figure out you DON'T know it all, you MIGHT have a shot to put a Dem in office again. Until then, keep exuding that false sense of political knowledge and keep crying in your cereal when your stiff doesn't get the votes.

Fortunately, the majority (about 61 million) of voters realize the dem way of life if the wrong way of life.. If you want to find the true political novices, look in the mirror, my little grass growing friend..

Suff

03-13-2005, 12:57 PM

You responded to my post in this thread, so initiating it is certainly a way to get someone off your ass.. Brilliant.

I'm trying to send you off with "some" face. You wants I go get 4 posts where I politely asked you to ignore me? And then go get you a handfull of posts after that from you? Harping on me? Cuz I can and will. I can get you one from PA 2 months ago where he even asked you to stfu and you have'nt. So ...You have forced my hand. You wouldn't sftu, you would'nt leave me alone...and Now You've pissed me off. So I can do one of two things.. I can ask PA to throw you off the board. I doubt he will... But I bet he'd listen to me. Matter of fact I did talk to PA on the telephone not to long ago and I told him I was tireing of you. So he knows. and I'll spare your feelings and his privacy by not giving you his response.

SO survivor is my only option ... Either your getting of this Board... or your taking a Huge step backwards and out of my face. Your party is over.

sq764

03-13-2005, 01:02 PM

I'm trying to send you off with "some" face. You wants I go get 4 posts where I politely asked you to ignore me? And then go get you a handfull of posts after that from you? Harping on me? Cuz I can and will. I can get you one from PA 2 months ago where he even asked you to stfu and you have'nt. So ...You have forced my hand. You wouldn't sftu, you would'nt leave me alone...and Now You've pissed me off. So I can do one of two things.. I can ask PA to throw you off the board. I doubt he will... But I bet he'd listen to me. Matter of fact I did talk to PA on the telephone not to long ago and I told him I was tireing of you. So he knows. and I'll spare your feelings and his privacy by not giving you his response.

SO survivor is my only option ... Either your getting of this Board... or your taking a Huge step backwards and out of my face. Your party is over.
You sound like a little boy who's dad is the teacher.. You're so pathetic..

Look, you do what you have to do and if PA wants me off this list, then he can certainly tell me.. I have explained to him I was leaving multiple times (oddly not b/c of you, but b/c of Equiqueer) and each time he's convinced me to hang around... Not sure why.

No one asked you to initiate a response to me, I've not responded to your posts in a month.. So either go cry to PA again, initiate this survivor thing or STFU.. Take your pick..

Kreed

03-13-2005, 01:39 PM

Hey Guys, IT's THE NET .... of course, Suff is known to almost everyone
here; a PA activist, but I CANNOT SEE why anyone would get all steamed
up over another poster, even someone dense & dull as Boxcar. hehe I wonder
if I threatened leaving would Mike beg me not to? Bets anyone? (Hands off
Equineer, my pal.)

PaceAdvantage

03-13-2005, 02:23 PM

I don't really remember what I might have said to Suff on the phone about SQ, but SQ is correct that I asked him to stick around when he told me he was thinking of leaving shortly after the off-topic SPORTS section opened....

You guys are all getting way out of hand. It may be time to shut down off-topic for a little while, until people re-evaluate why they are posting here....this part of the board is NOT what I had in mind when I opened this place many years ago....

SQ...calling suff a drunk was completely out of line. I don't think he was writing anything that warranted that kind of reply.

Suff's a great guy, generous to a fault, and someone you always want on your side in real life. Although I've never met him, SQ is probably a good guy in real life as well. It's a shame when stuff like this happens on a little ol' horse racing board. In real life, you two Red Sox fans could probably be good friends, but on here, you're clawing at each other.

Either this section of the board takes a dramatic turn for the better in terms of eliminating personal insults, or it stops existing.

Notice to all: When you see your mouse pointing to the SUBMIT REPLY button, and all you've posted is some wise-ass reply, or personal insult, think TWICE about sending it....it's not going to be ignored by me anymore....

This goes for EVERYONE....Neo-Cons and liberals alike.....Boxcar, Equineer, THIS MEANS YOU! LJB, your Buck Fush is not appreciated either....maybe you thought nobody would notice, but I did....

Clean up your acts, or I'll clean them up for you....and you don't want that!