don't think so

[46zilzal]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/06/military.recruiting.reut/index.html


Join up so you too can get yourself killed.....folks might be wising up a bit

[kenwoodallpromos]

Usually recruit 3 is better in a bad economy. War could be a factor.l
Safest services are Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy in that order.

[BIG RED]

What, you think it easy to recruit when we are involved in hostilities. You have to be able to dig something up better than this.

[sq764]

My friend that is a Nat Guardsman was telling me the main reason people aren't joining the guards is because it's not a cushy job anymore. He said the whole point of the guards was to prepare to go to war and the fact that the people joining are not aware of that is a joke.

Possible case of the chicken and the egg..

[sq764]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/06/military.recruiting.reut/index.html


Join up so you too can get yourself killed.....folks might be wising up a bit
Zilzal, I must ask you... Pre-Iraq war, what was the purpose of people joining the army? What were their intentions and what was expected of them, in your mind?

[46zilzal]

Zilzal, I must ask you... Pre-Iraq war, what was the purpose of people joining the army? What were their intentions and what was expected of them, in your mind?

College tution repayment is the only thing that would make ANY sense unless you LIKE being ordered around, LOSE all individuality and be just another pawn someone higher up can use at their disposal, which seems to be a prevailing belief but few will actually mention it ...hmm like Henry Kissinger maybe.

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."
Henry Kissinger statement to Bob Woodward of the Washington Post
"The Final Days (1976)

[Secretariat]

My friend that is a Nat Guardsman was telling me the main reason people aren't joining the guards is because it's not a cushy job anymore. ....
Possible case of the chicken and the egg..

So is your friend saying that President Bush joined the Nat. Guard because it was a cushy job?

[sq764]

So is your friend saying that President Bush joined the Nat. Guard because it was a cushy job?
He didn't specifically mention that..

Sometimes you actually sound mildly intelligent, then there are times like this where I would swear you were somehow blood relatives with Derek2u

[sq764]

College tution repayment is the only thing that would make ANY sense unless you LIKE being ordered around, LOSE all individuality and be just another pawn someone higher up can use at their disposal, which seems to be a prevailing belief but few will actually mention it ...hmm like Henry Kissinger maybe.
(1976)
Ok, you get college tuition paid, for doing what? What is expected of you when you enlist in the military?

[Secretariat]

He didn't specifically mention that..



Actually, it seems like he may be saying exactly that.

"My friend that is a Nat Guardsman was telling me the main reason people aren't joining the guards is because it's not a cushy job anymore. ...."

If "it's not a cushy job anymore" certainly implies that it was a cushy job previously. And President Bush was a member of the Nat. Guard previously was he not?

[46zilzal]

Having NEVER been there I have NO idea except to blindly follow whatever they tell you to do, as many friends related to me as their expereinces in one of those other stupid wars that took place in the 60's and 70's

[sq764]

Actually, it seems like he may be saying exactly that.

"My friend that is a Nat Guardsman was telling me the main reason people aren't joining the guards is because it's not a cushy job anymore. ...."

If "it's not a cushy job anymore" certainly implies that it was a cushy job previously. And President Bush was a member of the Nat. Guard previously was he not?
Not 100% sure, but I don't think my friend has personally asked each of the millions of guardsmen why they joined.. I think his thought was somewhat of a generalization..

You really have a juvenile mind when you want to.. Mystery why your guys keep losing..

[sq764]

Having NEVER been there I have NO idea except to blindly follow whatever they tell you to do, as many friends related to me as their expereinces in one of those other stupid wars that took place in the 60's and 70's
Never been there, have no clue as to what the purpose is, but never stops you from making up your own theory, does it?

[Secretariat]

Not 100% sure, but I don't think my friend has personally asked each of the millions of guardsmen why they joined.. I think his thought was somewhat of a generalization..


A generalization? I see...So then it's possible that his generalization may in fact not be true?

[sq764]

A generalization? I see...So then it's possible that his generalization may in fact not be true?
Can any opinion end up being true or false?

[ElKabong]

Having NEVER been there I have NO idea except to blindly follow whatever they tell you to do, as many friends related to me as their expereinces in one of those other stupid wars that took place in the 60's and 70's

You have "NO idea", yet you comment....

As Bernie from Let It Ride said to Trotter, "Huh. Some Doctor." :liar:

[lsbets]

from 46:

"folks might be wising up a bit"

Maybe I'm being a little too sensitive because of this guy's past, but what is Zil saying about those who still volunteer or those who reenlist? His implication is that they are the dumb ones - oh yeah, with no individuality, just pawns, etc, etc, etc ........ Even if no insult was intended, the condescension and sense of superiority is obvious.

[ElKabong]

Yes Lsbets, it's obvious. He obviously has something personal vs military personnel. Doubt he'd carry that attitude face to face with Vets, tho.

[sq764]

Yes Lsbets, it's obvious. He obviously has something personal vs military personnel. Doubt he'd carry that attitude face to face with Vets, tho.
You can just imagine he wants no one to join the military, yet as a result if there was a draft, he'd be at the Canadian border before you could say dodger

[lsbets]

I thought he was already in Canada. ;)

[sq764]

I thought he was already in Canada. ;)
Oh maybe he's living with Jane Fonda..

He's being protected by the finest Mountie Police army a handful of twoneys can buy..

[46zilzal]

Yes Lsbets, it's obvious. He obviously has something personal vs military personnel. Doubt he'd carry that attitude face to face with Vets, tho.
sure I would, why not..

worked in a lot of veteran's hospitals and attend many veterans today.

Have NOTHING against people, just the MINDLESS insituiton of soldiering....Reminds me of the many Monty Python spoofs of the same, which are not far off of the real thing

[sq764]

sure I would, why not..

worked in a lot of veteran's hospitals and attend many veterans today.

Have NOTHING against people, just the MINDLESS insituiton of soldiering....Reminds me of the many Monty Python spoofs of the same, which are not far off of the real thing
If you have nothing against people, why do you call them idiots?

[lsbets]

The mindless institution of soldiering? Well who soldiers? People. So are you saying that people who soldier are mindless? That is how it comes across. I got news for you 46Sec, you don't have half of the bravery, courage, or integrity of the weakest "mindless" soldier that I have seen over here. There are very few things that make me as proud as when I say "I am an American soldier." And I have no doubt that however despicable I and any of my fellow soldiers who are reading this find you to be, we would not hesitate to protect your freedoms. Because that is what mindless soldiers do - make it easy for people like you to be morons.

[Tom]

Crossed over in the 60's - circa Tet offensive? :eek:

[46zilzal]

Because that is what mindless soldiers do - make it easy for people like you to be morons.

I'll tell that to all my dead friends who were STUPID enough to join up, or worse yet were drafted.


If any folks think that soldiers being in Iraq is doing ANTYHING other than making fat cats richer, I truly feel sorry for your delusions

[Tom]

I feel sorry for a low life like YOU who is willing to leech off your country but not defend it. What a POS you are.

[sq764]

I'll tell that to all my dead friends who were STUPID enough to join up, or worse yet were drafted.


If any folks think that soldiers being in Iraq is doing ANTYHING other than making fat cats richer, I truly feel sorry for your delusions
You truly think Bush went over to Iraq simply to make the fat cats richer?

You can't be serious..

[PaceAdvantage]

ATTENTION SUFF:

Although my New Year's resolution was to stay out of stuff like this, I'm damn curious as to your opinion of the exchange taking place here in this thread. Specifically, what are your thoughts on 46zilzal's posts here? Do you think the responses he is getting are fair?

[46zilzal]

I feel sorry for a low life like YOU who is willing to leech off your country but not defend it. What a POS you are.

Just how does one LEECH? I take NOTHING from this country. NOTHING. When they are WRONG I say they are wrong. The only REALLY STUPID thing is to BLINDLY follow when it is wrong.

Seven of my high school friends are DEAD...for NOTHING..Never saw their 25th birthday. Rodger, a great BB player with a FULL RIDE scholarship to Cal took time off, was drafted and now his name is on the wall their in D.C. Lasted all of three months. Another died "as a result of a slow bleed he got FIRST from crashing at copter (hospitalized acutley for it but they MISSED the diagnosis of subdural hematoma) and when he was in a LITTLE bumper cruncher YEARS LATER, it opened again and he was DEAD the next morning. A wife, a mortgage and three children left to their own.

Several friends lost marriages and jobs not to mention the better part of their livers (cirrhosis) from post traumatic stress disorder. One of them, was in therapy for years until he discovered the stress had brought out a repressed memory. An entire group of them live above my brother in law in central Oregon. They went there, they told me, because they could not get back into society.

Guy at work, when I was in college, was nicked in the common peroneal nerve (from a bullet wound over in that OTHER really stupid war for profit) losing all motor function to the lateral compartment of his lower leg and, after a year, could not walk without a brace.....twenty four years old and he began to drink himself to death until he got help.

That's is why I TRULY LOVE what being a soldier does for you!!

[PaceAdvantage]

There is tragedy in every area of human endeavor. I am in no way trying to discount the pain you feel from the loss of your friends, but the bigger picture exists whereby in addition to the tragic loss of life, there are also amazing stories of bravery, struggle, and victory. Victories which have led to a greater, safer, and more free world.

[lsbets]

Perhaps you are so angry because of repressed guilt over hiding like a coward while your friends did their duty and served bravely and honorably? I would probably also feel like crap if I were you.

You are really pitiful 46 - from the tone of your posts regarding the military and those who serve, I think it is obvious that you have some issues that need to be resolved and some therapy is probably in order.

[sq764]

That's is why I TRULY LOVE what being a soldier does for you!!

So what do you suppose we do, have no army at all?

How can we protect this country otherwise?

I would be curious of your plan, seriously.

[Equineer]

There is tragedy in every area of human endeavor. I am in no way trying to discount the pain you feel from the loss of your friends, but the bigger picture exists whereby in addition to the tragic loss of life, there are also amazing stories of bravery, struggle, and victory. Victories which have led to a greater, safer, and more free world.Another tragedy is the way neo-cons find ways to warp the history of events and prematurely celebrate success. Iraq is a perfect example.

Bush's widely publicized plan for political reconstruction was scuttled by the Iraqis. Under the Bush reconstruction plan, free elections were to be delayed until after an interim national assembly drafted a constitution with checks and balances that would emphasize and protect the rights of minority ethnic/tribal/religious factions. Constitutional assembly representatives were supposed to be selected by regional caucuses comprised of officials installed by the interim Bush/Allawi government.

However, this U.S. plan was vigorously opposed by Kurdish and Shiite leaders. Most notably, it was Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani who insisted that free elections be held first. He boldly declared by religious edict that a constitution would not be valid otherwise. Because al-Sistani refused to compromise, the U.S. ultimately capitulated to his demands. To this day, al-Sistani is officially a citizen of Iran, and he steadfastly refuses to meet face-to-face with any American military or civilian officials.

Meanwhile, the Kurds extracted potentially ominous concessions from the Bush/Allawi government. Election results in the oil-rich Kirkuk region were virtually rigged by a concession to count exceedingly-hard-to-verify expatriate votes in the "local" Kirkuk election results. Another concession was the controversial deal made with the interim Bush/Allawi government which empowers the Kurds to expel Arabs and Turkomen who settled in the Kirkuk region during the decades of Saddam's Baathist regime. In effect, the Kurds were granted eleven months after the January election to selectively expel Arabs and Turkomen, a deal which has been criticized as akin to Palestinians booting Jewish settlers out of Israel.

As a result, the January election in Iraq was typically reported throughout the Muslim world as a defeat for Bush/Allawi and a victory for al-Sistani's Shiites and the Kurdish Alliance.

The ultimate objectives of both the Shiites and Kurds are crystal clear, dating back to the end of World War I when the Middle East was remapped by Britain and other Western powers, and thereafter surviving decades of brutal oppression by Saddam Hussein. The Shiite mullahs ultimately want a non-secular Iraq under Muslim law... the Islamic Republic of Iraq. The Kurds ultimately want a completely independent nation... the Republic of Kurdistan.

Seventy-three percent (73%) of Iraqi voters ratified these objectives by voting exactly as commanded by al-Sistani's Shiite religious edicts or by voting as a unified ethnic bloc led by Kurdish nationalists Barzani and Talabani.

Respected Middle East analysts expect the Shiites and Kurds to execute self-serving but very pragmatic strategies. With the U.S. effectively painted into a corner by the election results, the Shiites and Kurds are in a position to exchange lip service for several years of American military protection and many more billions in reconstruction dollars. In other words, they can be expected to milk us like a cow until the time is right to send our troops home and overtly pursue their ultimate and long-standing political/religious objectives.

[PaceAdvantage]

Another tragedy is the way neo-cons find ways to warp the history of events and prematurely celebrate success. Iraq is a perfect example.

You're an ass. Why exactly do you feel the need to interject your "neo-con" crap and "Iraq" into a thread which was discussing neither subject?

Go back and re-read the thread, and then I'll move your post into a new thread so that we can continue what we have going here....thanks.

[Suff]

ATTENTION SUFF:

Although my New Year's resolution was to stay out of stuff like this, I'm damn curious as to your opinion of the exchange taking place here in this thread. Specifically, what are your thoughts on 46zilzal's posts here? Do you think the responses he is getting are fair?

He's brash no doubt. Insensitive as well. He denies he is angry but I see that he does have some anger at the military. I don't see where anyone has to deny being angry at the Military. Its Ok to have a view, including anger with the military.. or more to the point, the Pentagon.

I do agree with his view that some people Just Blindly support War action... It part of culure to "My Country-Right or Wrong"... I don't neccassarily agree with that Blind support. Nor am I talking about the rank and file Soldier doing his Job in Iraq or anywhere in the world.

I was in the Air Force. Not only was my Basic Training at Lackland Air Force base, so was my technical school. I did close to 6 months in Texas before I went overseas for 3 years. Theres a point coming so bear with me. ANYONE that did any time at Lackland will back up what I saw. We train Saudia Arabian Pilots there, and Pakistans as well and a whole host of Middle Eastern Military types. Now in addition to training them,, we sell them Fighter Jets from Lockheed and the like. Now all the while our Politicians are giving speechs saying. .. THESE COUNTRYS ARE TYRANNICAL! AND THE PEOPLE MUST BE FREED! while at the same time we sell them weapons to quelch democratic uprises and strengthen thier grip on the country..

Can you see the Hypocrisy there? I know you can. Can you understand why someone might see the Military as nothing but a HUGE Conglomerate? and perhaps even take it a step further and think anyone who would Volunteer to be a part of this is "Blind"... It was RONALD REAGAN himself who when asked which he supported more.. Big Business or the Military?

He responded....

Son, The Military is Big Business

Let me give you another very recent example ...

Afghanistan... When the Taliban ran it, they eradicated the Poppy Production. When we defeated them we allowed Poppy growers to get back to growing and producing Opium. Part of the reason for this is that the Dept of Defenese (DOD).... in trying to gain cultural favor with its conquered subjects.. knows that people need to make a living.. Poor people get angry quicker. In a matter of two years.. Opioum production is 30% of the Afghan GDP... BUT WAIT.. Thats not where the story ends... as Much as the DOD likes to support the new economy and goes as far as engaging War lords in combat when they attempt to take over Poppy fields from small growers... The CIA see's it another way. They have advocated a Pogram of Crop Eradication through herbicide drops from spy planes. Now the CIA isn't against Poppy farms because Herione is Killing our kids in America, or ripping apart entire urban nieghborhoods. The CIA is against Poppy Farms because the CASH generated is in the 100's of millions .... and that supports insurgents and other fundementalist who support the attacks on America.

So while the DOD is actively supporting POPPY FARMS.. The CIA is doing COVERT Crop Eradication flyovers. Now what the Fuck! Really.. The Insanity of it all! The outright insanity of it just twists me up inside...

And don' take my word for it.. the info is wasy to find.,.. its an open debate within the Executive branch and also on the armed services committee.. Just do some Google searchs on these topics.. This isn't top notch sleuting...its common knowledge for anyone who reads alot. Like me.

so while I don't like ZilZal Tone... and I think he likes the negative attention and when he's bored he throws some Gasoline on the floor and then lights a match.. But him aside. I do not just BLINDLY see people like him as anti-american, nor anti-troops. and I support Isbets. I admire isbets. My impression of Isbet is he's a role model.. Someone I'd want my family to look up to and learn from. I love the guys on the ground. But I also know tjhe military is a democracy... its just protects one. These guys CANNOT question the DOD.. so its our job as citizens to do it for them. While they are protecting us, we are watching out for them. not by just blindly saying "KILL THEM ALL"... but by questioning our leaders... making sure the troops have what they need, that they get the benefits they deserve, that they aren't sent to another Vietnam... Thats our Job. We're in it together.. this thing called Democracy and Freedom.

[46zilzal]

Perhaps you are so angry because of repressed guilt over hiding like a coward while your friends did their duty and served bravely and honorably? I would probably also feel like crap if I were you.

Never hid from anything. I registered, went throught that STUPID and ridculous draft physical.

HIGH lottery number...never called

[Equineer]

You're an ass. Why exactly do you feel the need to interject your "neo-con" crap and "Iraq" into a thread which was discussing neither subject?

Go back and re-read the thread, and then I'll move your post into a new thread so that we can continue what we have going here....thanks.46ZilZal started this thread about recruiting shortfalls and posted subsequent replies, obviously convinced that Iraq is a war unjustified by circumstances, has produced a lot of human suffering and devastation, and has been pursued past any chance for reciprocal compensation in accordance with his sensibilities. In other words, like another Vietnam.

46ZilZal is entitled to his sensibilities and opinions regardless of what anyone else thinks.

What you have going here is a wolfpack attack on 46ZilZal's sensibilities stemming from something he originally said in a different thread altogether. This has happened pretty much every time he has posted since the notorious "idiot" remark.

Your post chided 46ZilZal for not seeing Iraq as a "bigger picture" (but in actuality a different picture) where battlefield victories "have led to a greater, safer, and more free world."

My reply simply points out that you are several years premature in celebrating such a victory. Only time will tell whether you or 46ZilZal have correctly perceived the big picture.

In view of your attitude, maybe you need to test yourself with this quiz...

Which of the following is the more essential hallmark of a free and lasting democracy?
The current majority rules the democracy.
The democracy rules the current majority.

I hope and trust that your anger and name-calling were not precipitated by my new avatar... because that would be simply petty after you went out of your way to assure me (twice over) that there is nothing offensive about it. :)

[JustRalph]

This article reminds me of the question that was asked during the early part of the war........by a journalist from another country.......

"Where do the Americans get these incredible Soldiers" ?



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7101643/site/newsweek/

To the Front
Soldiers who lost limbs in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing the unthinkable: Going back into battle


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050314_Issue/050305_AmputeeMetzdorf_hu.hmedium.jpg Alex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek


Army S/Sgt. Daniel Metzdorf recently traded in his high-tech prosthesis to train on an older hydraulic model that would need less maintenance in the battlefield

By Pat Wingert and T. Trent Gegax
Newsweek

March 14 issue - Army S/Sgt. Daniel Metzdorf figured his career as an infantryman was over when he lost his right leg to a roadside bomb in Iraq in January 2004. But back at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital, Metzdorf saw other amputees ambling by on high-tech prosthetic legs and had a crazy idea: he wanted to go back into battle with the 82nd Airborne. It was a long and painful struggle. The 28-year-old had 19 operations and faced hours of grueling rehab, first learning to walk again, and then to run and swim. Confident that he was ready, Metzdorf applied for reinstatement. But instead of a new post, the Army had another offer: a medical discharge. To a fighter like Metzdorf, quitting didn't seem like an option. "I told them, 'I'm not going to get out'," he says. He applied—and was rejected—twice more before he won over one important ally, his unit commander, who weighed in on his behalf. Finally, the Army relented, assigning Metzdorf to a desk job at Fort Bragg, N.C. He's still angling to get back to combat duty in Iraq. "I'm still an asset," Metzdorf says. "I just want to give back as much as I got."

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placeAd(2,'newsweek.national/national')https://view.atdmt.com/VON/view/nwswkvon0300000284von/direct/01/?5464036 (http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v3|3235|3|0|%2a|r%3B13708516%3B0-0%3B0%3B9270280%3B4307-300|250%3B8803226|8821122|1%3B%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp %3a%2f%2fclk.atdmt.com/VON/go/nwswkvon0300000284von/direct/01/)?"]http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/newsweek.national;kw=national;sz=300x250;tile=2;or d=[INSERT RANDOM NUMBER HERE]? (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/newsweek.national;kw=national;sz=300x250;tile=2;or d=[INSERT%20RANDOM%20NUMBER%20HERE]?)In previous wars, many severely wounded soldiers died on the battlefield. Amputees who made it home were automatically retired. Now advances in medicine mean more amputees are surviving, and today's high-tech replacement limbs let them lead active lives—something soldiers like Metzdorf aim to do in uniform. George W. Bush buoyed their hopes when he visited Walter Reed in late 2003. "Today, if wounded service members want to remain in uniform and can do the job," Bush said, "the military tries to help them stay."

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A small core of determined vets is taking the president at his word. So far, fewer than a dozen have been declared "fit for duty," and many more are training for their comebacks. Top Pentagon officials were at first reluctant. But after hearing personal pleas from wounded vets—and seeing the soldiers' astonishing recoveries firsthand—they reconsidered. The first Marine amputee found fit for duty has just returned from seven months in Iraq. "We realize that a soldier's strong mental and emotional outlook can more than compensate for a changed body," says Lt. Gen. Franklin Hagenbeck, the Army's deputy chief of staff for personnel.



http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050314_Issue/050305_AmputeePerez_hd.standard.jpgAlex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek


Pfc. George Perez: The paratrooper, 21, has completed his first successful jump with his new prosthetic leg. He's preparing to head to Afghanistan in May
The same grit that drew many of these vets to the military in the first place helps push them back into combat. Army Pfc. George Perez, 21, who lost a leg to a roadside bomb in Fallujah, wanted to stay in the service as soon as he found out he could walk again. "Ultimately, I want to do what makes me happy. It's also love of country, but I've got goals. I'm hard to keep down," he says. In May, he'll head to Afghanistan. S/Sgt. David Chatham, 34, won a Silver Star for rescuing troops after a rocket-launched grenade attack outside Fallujah in 2003. He applied his own tourniquet to a nearly severed left ankle. As soon as he was conscious, "I knew I wanted to stay in," he says. "I've been in the Army for more than half of my life. It's my family."



http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050314_Issue/050305_AmputeeRozelle_hd.standard.jpgAlex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek


Capt. David Rozelle: As the 32-year-old Texan prepares to leave for Iraq, CPO Christopher Jones conducts a final fitting on his prosthetic leg
It's not just the grunts who are eager to fight again. This month Army Capt. David Rozelle, 33, who lost part of his right leg to an antitank mine in 2003, will return as commander of the Third Armored Cavalry's regimental headquarters. Hours after surgery, Rozelle's commander stopped by his bedside to promise him another command once he'd healed. "I thought to myself, You can do this, I can go back and serve my country," says Rozelle, who has written about his experience in a new book, "Back in Action."

Some wounded soldiers are willing to do almost anything to get back into uniform. After Senior Airman Anthony Pizzifred, 20, lost his leg just above the ankle in Afghanistan last March, surgeons told him that the best prosthetic leg—one that would allow him to walk, run and wade in the ocean—was designed for those with more severe amputations. Pizzifred wanted maximum mobility as fast as possible. So he told his doctors to take off as much as they needed. They wheeled him back into the operating room and cut off his leg almost to the knee.



http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/Mag/050314_Issue/050305_AmputeeOlsen_hd.standard.jpgAlex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek


Staff Sgt. Josh Olson: Working out at Walter Reed Army Medical Center's gym. 'For me to walk, I have to use all my abdominal muscles the whole time'
Rejoining the service isn't necessarily a moneymaking proposition. Pizzifred says the Air Force would pay for a college education and a guaranteed mortgage if he retired, but he passed up the perks for a chance to serve overseas again. "I would have gotten more if I got out than I would by staying in," he says.

For many amputees, returning to combat duty may be an impossible dream. Some have multiple amputations. And those who've lost arms find it very difficult to learn to fire a weapon again. Special Forces Sgt. Andrew McCaffrey, 32, who lost his right arm below the elbow to a grenade in Afghanistan, now hopes to redeploy with the elite Green Berets. He has spent more than a year training and last week was performing field exercises with his unit at Fort Bragg. But base officials said his status was still uncertain. Many amputees can't return to the exact jobs they left. Army S/Sgt. Josh Olson, 25, lost his leg clear up to the hipbone while on foot patrol in Iraq in 2003. Army recruiters asked him to retrain and teach marksmanship instead. Last week Olson was thrilled to learn he'd been declared fit for combat.

Even if they persuade the military to let them go back to work, soldiers have to contend with an even tougher force: their families. Metzdorf is still trying to persuade his. "They think I've lost part of my brain, too," he says. Metzdorf told them not to worry. This time, he joked grimly, he'd be coming back in one piece.

[JustRalph]

Suff: as someone who spent almost a year at Lackland too......you are right about the base being full of Foreign officers etc. I recall we were also required to salute those officers..........

The sales you speak of almost all stopped in the late 80's. The Saudi's and the like started buying from the French companies. American companies still sell arms and aircraft to those companies overseas.......but no where near the same levels.

We trained tons of NATO types during the same time frame. I worked at a base that trained German officers how to fly F-4's. All of that has ended too........

It is a different world. But your points are valid.

[46zilzal]

They're back from Iraq, but are they OK?

Ephrata guard unit loses no lives, but life is different

By M.L. Lyke / Seattle Post-Intelligencer

A guardsman walks into a local Wal-Mart, freaks, does a 180, and walks back out again. Even after seven months, he can't stand the crowds. Another jerks awake in the middle of the night, holding an imagined gun at his wife's temple.

"Uh ... honey?" she asks.

The soldiers tear down highways, swerve to avoid trash in the road. The bag that held a Big Mac could now hide a bomb. One still jumps if you touch his neck. Others refuse to sleep in beds. Those who do may awake in a sweat.

They're members of the Ephrata-based 1161st Transportation Company, the close-knit National Guard unit that returned from Iraq seven months ago to a happy little town dolled up in yellow ribbons and townsfolk who breathed a collective sigh of relief.

Everyone in the town knew someone in uniform. The 130 citizen soldiers -- from age 18 to 60 -- were the region's postmen, tractor mechanics, lab technicians, firefighters and weekend warriors called to war.

"There was this sense of something missing when they were gone," says Wes Crago, city administrator of Ephrata, population 6,980. "Now, watching the news, hearing about roadside bombings, there's not the weight, not the burden.

"Our people are back home."

All of them. The unit had no casualties, only three wounded. Driving was extreme-danger duty in Iraq, but the 1161st managed to complete more than 14,000 missions, covering more than 1 million miles.

Some call it "The Miracle Company." But if no one paid the ultimate price, the deployment still came at a considerable cost.

Although some citizen soldiers have slowly eased back into routines, others still feel like strangers in their own lives seven months after troops touched down.

They landed. And crashed.

"You talk to someone and they say, 'You're fine now, you're home, so everything's good.' You want to say, 'No. It's not good. I'm feeling lost,' " says Spc. Keith Bond, a 31-year-old explosives specialist and father of two.

Some nights he goes to bed not even thinking about Iraq. "Others I lay down and 'Bam!' " The face of a young Iraqi boy who aimed a gun at his truck haunts him. Bond drew a bead on him, almost took the kid out before he realized the gun was a toy. He says it felt like 45 minutes. It was probably 10 seconds. It's still messing with his head.

"What if I had shot that boy?"

How, ask soldiers, do you explain that to civilians? How do you explain anything -- the claustrophobia of being close, the anger that lashes out of nowhere, the desire to hole up?

"For a while I just wanted to sit home and do nothing," says Spc. Steve Hurt, whose son, Tanner, was four days home from the hospital when he left. "I was tired of talking about the war, tired of hearing people ask, 'Did you shoot anybody?' I didn't want anything to do with anybody -- and here I was with a wife who wanted attention, and a 2-year-old son who was walking."

Seven months after his return, Hurt and wife, Michelle, both 26, are still quarreling. "We fight over stupid things, like disciplining Tanner and paying bills," he says. "I wasn't used to having to deal with all this stuff."

The small 1161st unit -- closely tracked by larger National Guard battalions with new waves of soldiers coming home -- could still sniff the gunfire when it arrived in Iraq in May 2003.

The company was one of the first on the ground, one of the most poorly equipped and pulled one of the longest deployments, with two tough extensions. The soldiers -- some call themselves "guinea pigs" -- found out about the last extension from newspapers, a problem higher-ups vowed not to repeat.

"The military has said they hoped to learn by mistakes made with our unit," says Sheila Kelly, wife of Spc. Edward Kelly.

With training and extensions, the unit was gone from families for more than 18 months, finally arriving at Fort Lewis at the end of July. The military had prepped soldiers and spouses on possible reintegration problems. But nothing, some say, could fully prepare them for what was to come.

After the tractor parades, the award ceremonies, the celebrations and chili feeds died down, it was all quiet on the eastern front. In some households, eerily quiet.

Sheila Kelly says her husband locked himself in the bathroom to dress when he first got home. He'd become a smoker. He cursed. He was reclusive. He didn't want to be kissed, hugged -- it felt "suffocating." When she threw a big dinner party, he bolted.

"They say it's like a roller coaster, and sooner or later the ride comes to an end. But it doesn't. There's always another ride that begins," says Sheila Kelly, 41, tears spilling onto her cheeks.

Even after seven months, Spc. Kelly, 42, still craves privacy. "For me the hard part is getting back to the day-to-day, re-establishing my feelings and emotions," says the soldier, a lab technician in civilian life. "It's like you have this little buffer zone around you -- and you don't want to let anyone in."

Kelly doubts he'll ever be "old normal" again.

But who defines "new normal?"

"I keep trying to bring back the old me," says Bond. "I bring him back one day, and the next I have to try to find that person all over again."

One 1161st mother says her son left a boy and came back a man.

Sgt. Jeff Elliott, 35, left a kid at heart, and came back feeling "like a 60-year-old man."

The father of five is one of three Guardsmen in the unit decorated with a Purple Heart. He was wounded in June 2003, when a bomb in a black plastic bag hit the truck he was driving. He was in medical hold at Fort Lewis until last November, undergoing treatment for an injured back and anxiety, with symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

He came home with an electronic box on his hip to interrupt pain signals to his back. It flashes like the light on a pursuing cop car. "We've been in hell. After you've been in hell, nothing's ever really the same again," he says.

He can't tolerate crowds and avoids restaurants -- unless his buddy Bond is there to cover his back. Like other soldiers accustomed to strict discipline, he's often impatient with the kids. "It's Daddy wants it done now, and he wants it done right now. If it's not, it pushes his button," says Penny, his wife of 15 years.

Elliott's family wonders what happened to the outgoing baby-faced dad who laughed and joked with the kids, chasing them through the house, rolling around on the floor with them.

This other dad hurts, and he's angry. "There's a mentality in the military that, if you complain you're hurt, you're faking it, you're slacking," says the sergeant. "So 99.1 percent of the time you suck it up, don't complain."

There was plenty to complain about in Iraq in 2003. The unit arrived to no running water, no sanitation, no air conditioning and a sheep camp with blood and feces on the wall for a base. The "guinea pigs" often felt like sitting ducks with no armor for their trucks, and inadequate flak gear for their bodies. Sweltering in 120-degree heat, they steamed when officers in air-conditioned SUVs rolled down their electric windows to bark orders.

For some, serving in Iraq was a matter of pride; for others, a waste of time. "I lost almost two years in my children's lives for something I see as a total waste of time and money and effort," says Spc. Kelly.

For Kory and Melissa Brown, it has been an exercise in togetherness. The husband and wife shipped out together, returned together. Although they couldn't touch or show affection in camp -- they stole a kiss or two -- they shared the same experiences. It's made readjustment simpler.

"She knows where I'm coming from ..." says Kory, 29.

"And he knows where I'm coming from," says Melissa, 28, completing the sentence.

She's a dental hygienist in town, and, like others in the 1161st, found re-entry into the civilian work force challenging. Away almost two years, she was rusty, and it took her several months to get her skill level back. There are still procedures she has to learn again. "I thought I would come back and just jump right into things," she says.

At least she came home to a job. Some soldiers didn't, including Spc. Hurt. He had to quit his old job when his wife moved to Ephrata. He came home from an 18-month deployment to a long, seven-month hunt for work. He applied everywhere and had only two phone calls, he says. "I felt like, after serving the country for 18 months, I come home, and I couldn't even get a job. That got to me.

"I started thinking, 'Maybe they're not hiring me because they know I could be redeployed.' "

Redeployment is a touchy topic in this little town, where remaining yellow ribbons are now faded by sun, frayed by wind.

With guard enlistments falling 30 percent short of recruitment goals, and members of the reserve and guard providing at least 40 percent of personnel in Iraq, the pressure's on. "When soldiers call to ask me what are the chances we'll go back, I tell them 50-50," says Sgt. 1st Class Merle McLain, the 36-year-old readiness manager for the 1161st and father of 3-year-old twins Alex and Sara.

They were 20 months old when the tall sergeant with the booming voice left for Iraq. He missed the "terrible 2s," potty training, his son's bout with pneumonia and emergency surgery. He tried to get home and was denied -- a low point.

Wife, Marcee, 32, who heads family support for the unit, says the kids are still working to reconnect with Dad. They bawled the first time he raised his voice and still run to Mommy for comfort. "The kids have to regain the trust that the parent is going to stay."

Is he?

Mom doesn't like to think about the troops going back.

But, like everyone else in the "Miracle Company" family, she can't help it.

"It's always in the back of my mind," she says softly.

[Bobby]

46, that's brings up a very interesting point: one about illnesses, whether physical or mental, that soldiers bring back home. Remember that guy down in TX who kidnapped, raped, and killed a Walmart employee a few weeks ago. Well, his family says he was "different" man when he came back from IRAq. he acted like he had something wrong with him.

[46zilzal]

You cannot train someone to be a killing machine and then expect them to come directly back to anywhere close to a NORMAL society. These guys really NEED time to be re-condtioned before returning home.

[sq764]

You cannot train someone to be a killing machine and then expect them to come directly back to anywhere close to a NORMAL society. These guys really NEED time to be re-condtioned before returning home.
Again I ask you, WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO AN ARMY??

Just not have one??

[PaceAdvantage]

Your post chided 46ZilZal for not seeing Iraq as a "bigger picture" (but in actuality a different picture) where battlefield victories "have led to a greater, safer, and more free world."

MY QUOTE ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ. I never intended it to be about Iraq and I never mentioned Iraq. It's about the total history of US Military involvement, present conflicts not included.

Try again.

[PaceAdvantage]

Now, thanks to vEtQuineer, we have yet another freakin thread talking about Iraq. This is why I can't participate in these off-topic discussions anymore....way too frustrating, and not worth my time.

I would also ask, YET AGAIN, that people REFRAIN from posting FULL ARTICLES!!

Why is this so difficult to accomplish?

[46zilzal]

I would also ask, YET AGAIN, that people REFRAIN from posting FULL ARTICLES!!

Why is this so difficult to accomplish?

First I heard that....will do.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's cool. I've been saying the proper way to post copyrighted articles is a link along with a couple of sentences from relevant parts or the first paragraph....

[JustRalph]

That's cool. I've been saying the proper way to post copyrighted articles is a link along with a couple of sentences from relevant parts or the first paragraph....

got it.........

[Kreed]

PA ... in my Opinion, IMO, Equineer is a Great Asset to the PA boaRD.
Its Point-CounterP --- my only Negative is the Dirty Retorts by BoxCar
and SQ?# and JustRalph, to name those three (3). I don't wanna read
about peds or polygamists and I don't ever think a Link to a Porn Web Site
is EVER appropriate, just EVER here. I typed HERE, in PA. Of my DONT TALK
LIST, the filthy Web Site was most egregious ... but I'm gonna be kind & say
that maybe it was a High Spirited attempt at humor, but I still don't like that.
Geez, sorry to sorta rant but guys, PA is a horse site, 1st, & the political
stuff etc is Cool 2, but NOT DIRT, please. It's GROSS.

[Kreed]

I just read my post & maybe I'm imparting a faulty feeling. I think ALL posts
are OK, except links to SEX sites. I DO NOT APPROVE, period. its got almost
a zero intellectual content & those sites are mostly Repulsive. Man, just GO
THERE if U desire, but I do not ever want to see another link HERE to smut.
PS: file copy, Krainin, et al

[46zilzal]

It would be refreshing just to have an opinion and not have to suffer through Ad hominem attacks.

Disagree?? fine. Tell me why you do. People see the SAME things through different eyes and life's experiences. One would think that on a handicapping discussion group, OF ALL PLACES, people would recognize that as FUNDAMENTAL.

[Kreed]

i agree with you 100% but hey maybe its the nature of cappers to argue
that way. in the OFF TOPICS section I say KEEP GERMANE. no personals.

[Kreed]

SQ & JR ... even if u got a Flat Rate phone rate, hang up now, im sure You
Two coordinate your attacks. But who cares? I'm always trying to upGrade
u2, but U defy logic. Maybe its your environments? i duuno. but deflate ur
egos, cause ur talent < ur posts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Kreed, I'm rapidly tiring of you....again.....

[Kreed]

Sorry, PA, but i do feel strongly about a few issues. If I'm that offensive
to you then I guess you will Banish me, but I did what I did because I love
PA & want to maintain its integrity. Is that so bad?

[PaceAdvantage]

You've already been banished, like 3 or 4 times.... :rolleyes:

[Kreed]

Where's the parole board when their needed? OK guys i just want to have
fun. And keep capping info flowing. (I posted about my Las Vegas trip. Who
here goes to LV or lives there? any thoughts?)

[sq764]

SQ & JR ... even if u got a Flat Rate phone rate, hang up now, im sure You
Two coordinate your attacks. But who cares? I'm always trying to upGrade
u2, but U defy logic. Maybe its your environments? i duuno. but deflate ur
egos, cause ur talent < ur posts.
I am not going to try to fake it and act like i know what the hell you are even talking about.. I can't even figure out if you are insulting me or not.. Can you please use the English language when you post?

[46zilzal]

HINT: He is

[toetoe]

Kudos to 46zilzal for no personal attacks. Should not be a big thing, but it is. Kudos to Kreed for wrapping his possible put-downs in such marvelously convoluted Stengelese as to baffle even the most attentive perusers. Kinda like Paul Allen calling the feature at Canterbury Downs.
Kudos to me for keeping it under 1,000 words.

[JustRalph]

PA..........


never mind.........not even worth it.............

[Tom]

It would be refreshing just to have an opinion and not have to suffer through Ad hominem attacks.

Disagree?? fine. Tell me why you do. People see the SAME things through different eyes and life's experiences. One would think that on a handicapping discussion group, OF ALL PLACES, people would recognize that as FUNDAMENTAL.

YOU can say this?!?!?!?!
YOU - who blatantly calls our troops puting thier lives on the line dummies, or idiots, or whatever, and pawns?
Opposite opinions are one thing, inflamatory crap that you post about our troops and accusing our president of going into Iraq for profit - without one shred of evidence is digusting.
YOU who claim you take nothing from your country? Guess again. Your very freedom doesn't come from the world's respect for your rights - it comes from the protection you get from your country's soldiers - those "killing machines" that stand between you and the evil of the world. You owe your sorry arse to the country that provides you with freedom.

[46zilzal]

My dad is now a believer, or rather NON-believer

My Dad is old school. Was in the Army Air Corps in Manila during the war and always used to quote that old line to me "My country right or wrong to which I responded, "Yes the repsonsibility for things is ours, but if morally wrong we should try to change it."

Funny thing, my father is an expert on military history, particularly the U.S. cavalry. My love of horses probably stems from all the displays of equipment and parades we used to attend while I was growing up. He should have gotten the job as the curator at the U.S. Cavalry museum at Fort Levenworth Kansas but without a masters in history he was turned down even though he had recommendations from BRASS even at the Pentagon level. Generals, colonels, etc., used to be at the house all the time, aksing him to research things or looking at his huge collection of uniforms, books, guns etc., he is written up in various journals, quoted often in textbooks in military history.

It comes as NO surpise then that we differed on the Vietnam war. The first American born son of Eastern Europen parents, he never questioned things. He believed what he as told. WW II did not change his mind, but he began to question conflicts after that. Used to tell him that if it were 1942, I would have been right there in line with him when he joined up. well things changed.

One of my father's best friends was an orthodontist who lost his son (an ROTC fellow) after a few months. He was horribly injured to the point (as my friends who were medics would have said that in the body bag "He was ripe and runny") that there was no open casket. He confronted my father to ask if I wanted to have braces put on my teeth so I would get out of the draft. The rules then allowed that, for certain braces, one could get a medical deferrment. I passed on the opportunity. A high lottery number and a maximum call to number 190 that year assured I would not be called.

My Dad found out awhile after listening to the information the dentist told him that had come through his son's letters, that what the son had gone through and what we were told about said war was CRAP. Little by little my father's position was starting to change. When his priest came out solidly against the war, he really began to think it out. We talked and he found out more baloney from what I had learned from many of my friends returning.

Right before this last election we talked at length about this newest FIASCO and for the FIRST TIME IN THIS MAN'S LIFE, he did not vote. "I can't believe that my country would participate in something like this." I was really amazed.

[sq764]

So Zilzal, how do you put together and maintane an armed forces without volunteers and without a draft?

[Suff]

Suff: as someone who spent almost a year at Lackland too......you are right about the base being full of Foreign officers etc. I recall we were also required to salute those officers..........

The sales you speak of almost all stopped in the late 80's. The Saudi's and the like started buying from the French companies. American companies still sell arms and aircraft to those companies overseas.......but no where near the same levels.

We trained tons of NATO types during the same time frame. I worked at a base that trained German officers how to fly F-4's. All of that has ended too........

It is a different world. But your points are valid.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151519,00.html



WASHINGTON — The United States has agreed to sell about two dozen sophisticated F-16 fighter planes (search) to Pakistan, a diplomatically sensitive move

[Tom]

Intersting link, Suff.

So India might also buy some war planes from us.....uh, if we are trying to establish peace and stability in the region, wouldn't it be a good idea to stop arming both sides all the time?

Ya gotta love Bush -He has great goals, but he needs a wee bit more work in the strategy part. :rolleyes:

[46zilzal]

The Army's recruiters are being challenged with one of the hardest selling jobs the military has asked of them in American history, and many say the demands are taking a toll.

A recruiter in New York said pressure from the Army to meet his recruiting goals during a time of war has given him stomach problems and searing back pain. Suffering from bouts of depression, he said he has considered suicide. Another, in Texas, said he had volunteered many times to go to Iraq rather than face ridicule, rejection and the Army's wrath.

[PaceAdvantage]

A recruiter in New York said pressure from the Army to meet his recruiting goals during a time of war has given him stomach problems and searing back pain. Suffering from bouts of depression, he said he has considered suicide. Another, in Texas, said he had volunteered many times to go to Iraq rather than face ridicule, rejection and the Army's wrath.

And you think the armed forces is the only place where job stress takes its toll? What's the point of this post?

[46zilzal]

And you think the armed forces is the only place where job stress takes its toll? What's the point of this post?

Goes along with this entire thread that's all... If you try to sell CRAP long enough, based upon a bunch of baloney, your conscience MIGHT just express itself via physical symptoms.

[lsbets]

"sell CRAP long enough, based upon a bunch of baloney"

Okay PA, I know you don't want anymore personal attacks on here, but 46 has once again proven that he is a total moron. Yet one more post from the safety of anonymity insulting those who choose to serve in the military. I'd love to see how fast 46 would backpedal on his words if he ever stood in front of me.

[46zilzal]

I'd love to see how fast 46 would backpedal on his words if he ever stood in front of me.

Wouldn't change a word for you, the man in the Moon or the Good Humor man, and why should anyone change ANY point of view unless subsequent facts negate it? It is simply different from yours that's all. People have various views on all things under the sun. You may like chocolate milk, I may not. You may think one thing about yogurt which I may disagree with. This subject is qualitatively NO DIFFERENT.

I am a concerned over the overt hogwash that is pedddled as truth regarding this baloney called a war (What is NOW it is called a war of independence since all the "initial reasons" never quite came to be true), JUST like we heard in that little mistake in Southeast Asia. That was a giant fib too.
Here's a few more tidbits:
THE ORIGINAL article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/nyregion/27recruit.html?hp&ex=1111899600&en=6a48988b1357eb7b&ei=5094&partner=homepage
hmmm this one did not work
OR, the Army’s vice chief of staff says he’s been losing sleep lately over the future of the all-volunteer force. “What keeps me awake at night is what this all-volunteer force will look like in 2007,” Gen. Richard Cody told lawmakers recently on Capital Hill. The Army Reserve is at 90 percent of its recruiting goal so far, but the National Guard, which is at only 75 percent of its goal for this year to date, is a concern
http://www.freep.com/news/nw/army24e_20050324.htm
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/helenthomas/4318785/detail.html
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050325/1073266.asp
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050324-084528-8591r.htm
or drawing at straws,
http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050324/NEWS01/503240303/1002
and of course this one: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/20/1411229

Hint: it ws Henry Kissinger I initially plagerized from in regards to the characterization of the military.

[ljb]

Did somebody leave a door open ? I think I feel a draft . :D :D :D

Now so that this may not be out of line. I will add: I have seen articles suggesting there will be a selective draft once the ss issue is put to bed. Either passing or failing. Selective meaning medical personal and non-combat personal.

[hcap]

The military is in a tough position.

The war is unpopular no matter what its cheerleaders claim. Bush is losing approval points on the war. The "wartime preznit" has spent his election acquired capitol on SS and the Schiavo case.

Potential recruits may no longer see the shine on the apple. Maybe time to call up cheney from his undisclosed location to start polishing the apple. Ole grimace head can put some spin on it.

[46zilzal]

http://www.ronaldreagan.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=
000401;p=1

How about a ltter from a a fellow there?
Thanksgiving visit

So the boss came to visit us on Thanksgiving, under wraps and under the American flag. Thanks for coming. Oh thank you, kind leader, merciful leader, for taking one day out of your busy schedule to visit us. The shepherd looking over his flock. Thanks for making the sacrifice. God knows we're making one. Re-election is coming up, but that had nothing to do with it, now did it?

I remember your victorious landing on the ship. Oh how all those then alive, and now dead, would love to sit down next to you, cutting their families' turkeys and filling the empty seats at the tables. Leader of the free world, be our guest at the head of our table. Or would you like to sit in one of the many empty seats left by the war? There's plenty of room. Enough turkey and stuffing to go around. Fat and happy, delirious and exhausted. That's how I feel.

In a hurry? Going so soon? Have time for questions? You sure do have time for compliments. Do you ever feel responsible? I'm tired of this. Go back home to the ranch and tell them how happy and fulfilling the trip made you feel.

Spc. Damian Torres
Iraq

[46zilzal]

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Defensewatch_112404_Helms,00.html

[ElKabong]

Spreading democracy in that region isn't an easy task. Thank God we have people like lsbets that have the courage to serve and fight for this. If we relied on people like 46, hcap, ljb, etc we'd still be taking 9-11 up the ass on a weekly or monthly basis. Something the 3 above mentioned ladies (or gents?) would like, I'm sure.

No doubt we'll lose some #s. Doesn't mean we give up (at least most of us, that is).

[ljb]

Elk,
Not sure if you are aware but your post is a personal attack on myself and a couple of others. This type posts are no longer acceptable on these boards.

[46zilzal]

Some folks support the Giants others support the Twins. Same thing here: one guy WANTS to fight, MANY others do not and question the whole thing. Not a complicated difference of opinions.

"Spreading democracy?" is that the reason TODAY? Thought it was MWD, and all the other overt lies..wonder what it will be next year?

[Tom]

El...maybe some posters here are upset about Iraq because theywere in FAVOR of 9-11 hapeening?? I suspect that might be the case with a couple.

[46zilzal]

Come on BE ORIGINAL..

Cover of the book Banana Reupublicans by Rampton and Stauber:
"Yessir, You're either with the Reublican Pary -- or with the terrorits! There's NO middle ground!"

[ElKabong]

zil,

Spreading democracy is one of many reasons. There were what, 25 or so UN resolutions Iraq violated along the way.....

WMD, UN resolutions broken, Iraq firing AAA at our aircraft in peacetime, spreading democracy..... Take your pick. If you get hung up on WMD to the point of expiring your 200 posts of nonsense on it, have at it. On November 2 we as a nation (not canada) voted for GWB's platform.

The people spoke. We continue to move foreward and onward. You and the little girl with face paint, lbj and others like you?? There's always '08. Hating GWB isn't a successful party platform, yet it's all you have in your bag at the present time.

[ElKabong]

El...maybe some posters here are upset about Iraq because theywere in FAVOR of 9-11 hapeening?? I suspect that might be the case with a couple.


Tom,

I think you're right on some of these guys. I hit the IGNORE on ljb and the creepy little girl with face paint who looks like daddy told her she couldn't ride the merry go round again. I think you're right on them. Their posts aren't worth my time, same for equivetscratch.

Zil seems bitter. Haven't put him on ignore yet....getting closer, lol. He has a chip on his shoulder about US military members, or the military as a whole. He needs some professional help there.

The guy that mentioned KBR (Haliburton subcontractor) to me Friday is a liberal dem and anti-GWB person in a big way, but he's no whiner or pantywaist. His office has a pic of the flag on Mt Suribachi being raised, a small US Marine Flag and a packet of sand from Omaha Beach (willed to him by a friend). They all aren't flaming nutcases, but some of them would prefer to see us fail at what we're trying to accomplish.

[46zilzal]

PARODY...too bad Country Joe McDonald can't update "Im Fixin' to Die Rag" for us.

"Come on all of you big strong men Uncle Sam needs your help again, He's got himself in some terrible crap, way down yonder in old Iraq, so throw down your books and pick up a gun we're gonna have a whole lot of fun.

It's one to three what are we fightin' for etc. etc."

SPREADING DEMOCRACY ---HOG WASH, spreading NEW business opportunities for the fat cats.

[ElKabong]

Iraq should never have defied all those resolutions. Should never have fired on our airmen in peacetime. Shouldn't have played games with weapons inspectors. Shouldn't have plotted to kill a US President. Saddam shouldn't have gassed his own people to death.

I know you want to see saddam still in power so he could continue to kill whoever he pleased that lived within his borders....and also attack neighbor countries w/o provocation. But, your wishes have to take a back seat, zil....sorry. You lose.

[46zilzal]

I know you want to see saddam still in power so he could continue to kill whoever he pleased that lived within his borders....and also attack neighbor countries w/o provocation. But, your wishes have to take a back seat, zil....sorry. You lose.

I love the way all the folks HERE think they have acess to my thoughts. I do not give a hoot about that little dictator on the other side of the planet. Niether should any of us.

His business...the world goes on regardless of ANY of our opinions

[ElKabong]

zil,

"His business" was pretty much detailed in my first paragraph (the one you didn't paste). Let me remind you what "his business" was. If none of that bothers you, you were in the minority on November 2 & always will be. That chip on your shoulder ain't going anywhere soon I'd bet.

>>Iraq should never have defied all those resolutions. Should never have fired on our airmen in peacetime. Shouldn't have played games with weapons inspectors. Shouldn't have plotted to kill a US President. Saddam shouldn't have gassed his own people to death.

[hcap]

Kabong>>Iraq should never have defied all those resolutions. Should never have fired on our airmen in peacetime. Shouldn't have played games with weapons inspectors. Shouldn't have plotted to kill a US President. Saddam shouldn't have gassed his own people to death.Yeah but the war was sold to us and the congress based on WMDs and terrorist connections. We would not be in Iraq based on any or all of the above. Without threats of "mushroom clouds" or other nonsense from brother blair like the 45 minute hocus pocus quoted by the preznit.

You may believe your reasons justify invasion. The bushies could not and did not try to sell those points. Believe what you want. Meanwhile all of bushs' most publicized war stories have been smoke and mirrors. The Hussein "decapitation strike" turned up no bodies and no bunkers. Chemical Ali walked out alive. Jessica Lynch was never shot, stabbed, or tortured by Iraqis. Despite all the hot tips Ahmad Chalabi fed us, the WMD search teams have found zilch Oh yeah the toppling of saddams statue was a crock. Poor track record wouldn't you say.

Why should potential recruits buy it?

"Propaganda by its very nature is an enterprise for perverting the significance of events and of insinuating false intentions"..Jacques Ellul

"Man's deadliest weapon is language. He is as susceptible to being hypnotised by slogans as he is to infectious diseases. And when there is an epidemic, the group mind takes over... Arthur Koestler, Bricks to Babel, 1989

Being against this war is patriotic. Not enlisting is patriotic. Being against the loonies in office is patriotic. You and the other groupthinkers have no god-given stake out on patriotism.

[PaceAdvantage]

Same thing here: one guy WANTS to fight, MANY others do not and question the whole thing.

If that truly is the case, one vs. MANY as you put it, how come George W. Bush was re-elected President of the United States by a WIDE MARGIN (popular vote). How do you reconcile this outcome?

[hcap]

Originally I thought bush is at an all time low in approval ratings because of SS, the Schiavo mess and the war. Just found the real reason.

http://www.pugbus.net/images/fischer.jpg

“The friend of our enemy is the enemy of our nation’s friends,” declared Bush. “The United States won’t be fooled again by Iceland’s willingness to shelter terrorists.”


http://www.pugbus.net/Politics/03272005_fischer.htm

:rolleyes:

[hcap]

Popular vote

Bush
62,040,606 51%

Kerry
59,028,109 48%

Not exactly a mandate. I believe it is one of the poorest showings by an incumbent ever. The country is still very divided.

[PaceAdvantage]

So we're going to the "fun with numbers" routine? I don't want to rehash the statistics behind the margin of victory.

How about we leave it at:

If it truly was one vs. MANY, as 46zilzal likes to put it, then Bush would have lost.

[ljb]

El...maybe some posters here are upset about Iraq because theywere in FAVOR of 9-11 hapeening?? I suspect that might be the case with a couple.
Tom,
you probably won't read this but, I can't believe you would think such a thing.
ps. You are on my buddy list. ;)

[46zilzal]

If that truly is the case, one vs. MANY as you put it, how come George W. Bush was re-elected President of the United States by a WIDE MARGIN (popular vote). How do you reconcile this outcome?

Like a good propagandist, Rove made the election about something else AND the other candidate shot himself in the foot too many times

Also, "WIDE MARGIN"?? I am sure glad you are NOT the chartman for the DRF!

[Tom]

46- you said the only war jsutified was WWII, correct?

Well, in terms of rebuilding Iraq vs Europe and Japan, we are yers ahead of 1945. Years ahead on the elections.

Yes, there were insurgents and attacks in 1945-1947, just like today.

And most people back then did not favor going to war. They chose to ignore the little dictators on the other side of the globe. Until they came to Pearl Harbour.

And I thought you were Canadian, no?
If you are, you might to worry aobut your own country - we don't need your help.
If you are American, we still don't need it!:p

[46zilzal]

And I thought you were Canadian, no?

No

[PaceAdvantage]

Also, "WIDE MARGIN"?? I am sure glad you are NOT the chartman for the DRF!

It all depends on how you look at it.....

[ljb]

so are you suggesting we should elect our president based on acreage?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not suggesting anything. You are interpreting.

[Secretariat]

El...maybe some posters here are upset about Iraq because theywere in FAVOR of 9-11 hapeening?? I suspect that might be the case with a couple.

No Tom, I am upset about Iraq precisely BECAUSE it had nothing to do with 911.

[PaceAdvantage]

No Tom, I am upset about Iraq precisely BECAUSE it had nothing to do with 911.

Who said?

[ljb]

Who said?
All the government investigations into the 9/11 incident said.

[ljb]

I'm not suggesting anything. You are interpreting.
Well then what are you saying with this graphic?

[PaceAdvantage]

All the government investigations into the 9/11 incident said.

Said what? Said there was no evidence available. That doesn't mean it isn't true.

[46zilzal]

there is an organiztion that is planning a rally for March 31st in ANTICIPATION (don't know if it is real or not) of the DRAFT being re-instaed

At http://nodraftnoway.org

[ljb]

Said what? Said there was no evidence available. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
Is there a difference between no evidence available and no evidence? Based on your illogical statement.
There is no evidence availble that we are not brothers. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
There is no evidence avaliable that Cheney is homosexual. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
There is no evidence avaliable that Tom secretly adores you. That doesn't mean it isn't true.
ad infintium.

[Tom]

That lie still floating around out there?

Pssst.....there is no EASTER BUNNY either.:lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

The likelihood still remains....it's just my opinion. You are free to continue to disagree.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.pugbus.net/images/fischer.jpg

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2005/03/29/with_fischer_iceland_makes_a_bad_move/

Here' a juicy tidbit from the above article:

Here is a taste of the real Bobby Fischer, as profiled by Rene Chun in The Atlantic in 2002: ''The Jews are a 'filthy, lying bastard people,' bent on world domination through such insidious schemes as the Holocaust ('a money-making invention'), the mass murder of Christian children ('their blood is used for black-magic ceremonies'), and junk food (William Rosenberg, the founder of Dunkin' Donuts, is singled out as a culprit)."

Here is an excerpt from a radio interview with Fischer broadcast in the Philippines, hailing the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001: ''This is all wonderful news," Fischer announced. ''I applaud the act. The US and Israel have been slaughtering the Palestinians, just slaughtering them for years. Robbing them and slaughtering them. Nobody gave a [expletive]. Now it's coming back to the US. [Expletive] the US. I want to see the US wiped out."

What a guy!

[hcap]

ljb so are you suggesting we should elect our president based on acreage?http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000866232

"President Bush's approval rating has plunged to the lowest level of any president since World War II at this point in his second term, the Gallup Organization reported today."

Mandate?