Addicts or Idiots? Jeff Mullins Unloads.

[Pace Cap'n]

Well, one trainer has a low opinion of us.

Check this (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-simers6mar06,1,7991953.column?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=2&cset=true).

Quote: "It will never be a level playing field. There are lots of things people don't know, and won't know."

[TriSuper]

Just an unbelieveable article. I've had plenty of reasons to give up the game before but this may be the last straw. All I can say is WOW! :mad:

[cj]

I'm pretty sure I'm not an idiot or an addict, so Jeff Mullins can kiss my ass.

[depalma13]

Although I think he brings up some serious conflict of interest questions, his attack on those that pay the purses make him look like a complete idiot. If they really wanted to clean up horse racing, all horses test results should be made public.

[Tom]

Amen to that. There is no room for any secrecy in horse racing. Perhaps what is needed is - and don't kill me for suggesting this- a thrid party, perhaps governement overseer at all tracks, ones that change tracks regularly, to represent the betting public in all track affairs? They would of course be paid out of purse money so as not to make the bettors shoulder the burden of honesty.

[rrbauer]

Statement made to me by Chris McCarron on a limo ride from the Oakland airport to Golden Gate fields back in the 80's. I bring it up because I think that there is more disdain for the betting public (ala Jeff Mullins) by first-level participants in the game than is generally recognized. In McCarron's case, until it became politically-correct for him to do so (when he was seeking money for the McBeth fund and later as GM at Santa Anita) he was never much for making time for the bettors.

Do you think that Charlie Whittingham ever lost any sleep over telling Shoe to "go easy" on a 3/5 shot in a conditioned allowance race that he was using as a prep for an upcoming stakes? I would much rather understand where Mullins is coming from in relation to the job that he is doing than have him put a lot of shine on it. Indeed, if he were in one of the sports leagues he would probably be looking at a $10K fine for criticizing the officials!

[JimG]

The only thing I can add to what cj said is he should be made to pay for making comments detrimental to the sport of horse racing. If an athlete or manager said that anyone who came to a game was an idiot, I would think that sport would hold him accountable. I would like to see the same for Mullins.

Jim

[cj]

I'd recommend flooding the CHRB with e-mails demanding that he be held accountable. I've already sent one.

Here is the address:

RoyM@chrb.ca.gov (%20RoyM@chrb.ca.gov)

[kenwoodallpromos]

She said her board has the right to test any horse, and has been doing so. I asked how the horses are selected, and she said, "Up north, I asked the stewards to pick out a few."

"Did you personally single out Mullins down here?" I asked.

**********"Yes," she said. "But we also did a Headley horse."
------------
I understand why some of you are so upset with Mullins' comments. But he is exactly correct. I lately have been trying to telll you all how the racing industry treats all bettor like addicts and idiots.
The lady who runs the milkshake police and whose buddy Headley hates Mullins admits she singled Mullins out?
If you read the story again, you will plainy seee how anything anyone in racing says is usually taken in the most negative light and exaggerated by the media, including racing's own. And they have no understanding of basic horseracing, let alone enough knowledge to comprehend what Mullins is saying.
The fact is, most bettors act like addicts or idiots because they don't learn or don't care to find out the truth. They can't handle the truth and racing does not encourage a level playing field except when the races are actually being run. Then because of their attempt to make races unpredictable and fair during races, they play games with stories and hard handicapping information and have little regard for most bettors.
That is what Mullins meant whether anyone wants to believe it or not and that is why I profit in racing- that is my competition.
It is just very fortunate that racing has a forum like this where the most intelligent 10% come to.

[blind squirrel]

many owners and trainers view "the betting public" as idiots.

this will come back to haunt MULLINS.i've been wagering
less on SO CAL racing the last few years{short fields,etc.}
i'll be happy to take my "idiot" money somewhere else.

thanks TJ SIMERS,this is better reporting than the DRF!

[Show Me the Wire]

cj:

Nice idea but the CHRB has no jurisdiction over this, Mr Mullins has the right of free speech to express his disdain of racing fans.

And it is a sad fact that most in the industry view the wagering public in the same manner. What must be remebered is a vast majority of these people came to their present level in life through shoveling horse droppings. And the cream of these dropping shovelers rise to the top of the game.

In my opinion shoveling horse dropping does not take much intellectual effort and that lack of effort is exposed in the opinions expressed by Mr. Mullins.

What really is needed is a shakeout in the industry. There are too many race tracks, trainers, horses and races. A good number of these tracks need to be shuttered so there will be fewer opportunities for Mr. Mullin type people and the industry will be easier to regulate. Less is more. :ThmbUp:

[GameTheory]

But Mullins *should* be singled out, or given extra attention if we have only limited resources. Why? Because he wins so much. The biggest winners should be tested the most to keep them honest, because if they are cheating they are doing the most damage. Make a rule -- we will test your horses in accordance with your win percentage. Personally, I think all the horses should be in the detention barn. I've been told on this board that it wouldn't address the real problem, but seeing Mullins win rate go into the toilet is strong evidence that it would make a real difference. And if it applied to everybody, then they could complain about it, but they couldn't call it unfair...

[cj]

I don't really know the rules for things like this in racing, but in other sports, there is no "Freedom of Speech"...just ask Mark Cuban.

[Show Me the Wire]

cj:

You are right about Mark Cuban, the difference is the leagues have an all powerfull commisioner (lol) that sets the rules and the players, owners all sign agreements basically agreeing to this authority over them and the waiving of their individual rights to express themselves over certain league matters.

Racing boards have no such authority over trainers.

The best thing the public can do is boycott the product. Money or lack of it (decline in handle) is the only thing that will motivate a race track to change. But the problem is race track management thinks like Mr. Mullins that the core patrons are gambling addicts or idiots. They industry believes it can do anything with impunity because addicts will pay any price to get their fix.

[Tom]

time for the fams to have their opwn special day at the races - Rotten Tomatoe day.
Let this bottom feeder Mullins have a faceful next time to see him. :eek:

[46zilzal]

The majority of the fans at the races are in the fog...thank goodness for that. I laugh at the ones who are tyring to do an East coast harness track and then change mindsets to wager on a west coast Turf route....With various tip sheets flowing out of their pockets, they TRY to come up with logic (have not done their homework before arrving) in all the noise of the track....can't be done

Used to wear a shirt to the track "I am here to take YOUR money!" Not a good idea to draw attention to yourself and after a bit...one realizes it is better to be quietly effective

[Suff]

I'd recommend flooding the CHRB with e-mails demanding that he be held accountable. I've already sent one.

Here is the address:

RoyM@chrb.ca.gov (%20RoyM@chrb.ca.gov)

I sent 1... and I didn't Blast off because they don't read most of those types anyway. Just a quick note saying its inappropiatte and offensive.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Make a rule -- we will test your horses in accordance with your win percentage.
You mean instead of testing all winners like they do now? I'm confused.
Detention- When horses of Mullins, Cerin, and others go to the detention barn, what happens to their empty stalls? Do track officials' buddies get them or something more fair? Just asking.

[GameTheory]

Make a rule -- we will test your horses in accordance with your win percentage.
You mean instead of testing all winners like they do now? I'm confused.
Detention- When horses of Mullins, Cerin, and others go to the detention barn, what happens to their empty stalls? Do track officials' buddies get them or something more fair? Just asking.Mullins was complaining he was being singled out by the board, and I was saying he should be singled out.

[TravisVOX]

Do you think that Charlie Whittingham ever lost any sleep over telling Shoe to "go easy" on a 3/5 shot in a conditioned allowance race that he was using as a prep for an upcoming stakes?

I think thats a facet of handicapping that you need to learn. 3/5 as being too short, and potential prep being another.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Look at the Equibase trainer leaders at SA and BM.
Mark Cardenas and Art Sherman sould be singled out too- both hitting about 40%! We can start a write-in campaign and write complaints weekly to the CHRb about whoever has the highest win %.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Santa Anita Park has been inundated with so much rain since opening day on Dec. 26 track superintendent Steve Wood said normal rainfall for a full year at Santa Anita is 14 inches. Through 43 racing days this meet, there have been 23 "off" tracks. As of 3-6-05.
Mullins should stable his horses at San Luis Rey. They have a horse swimmimg pool for workouts!LOL!

[mhrussell]

CJ-

Thanks for the link. I just sent the CHRB an email as well. "Jurisdiction" or no, I think a barrage of emails from handicappers and fans can only help.
Mullins' comments cannot go undisciplied. :mad:


The CA racing situation gets worse and worse. I just hope the tide can turn before it's too late. :(

[Macdiarmadillo]

Kenwoodallpromos, post race tests are done for the first three horses and another one. For a time 25 years ago, that was "first three horses and Frankel's horse if not in the top three". And they could do that.

Trainers are licensed by the CHRB therefore trainers play by their rules; you don't have to train in California. And if you think that the CHRB was picking on Mullins, you'd do better thinking they had a lot of reports before they even thought of testing Mullin's horses. My opinion is that they're too slow, but if it was the typical "he said/she said" situation, there's not much they can do until accusations pile up. Same as any other police force. And that's why other high percentage guys aren't in the detention barn.

Wonder what Mullins's betting owners think of his comments?

[Joe Conte]

You should know that trainer John Ward was actually PREPPING Monarchos in the Wood Memorial prior to his Ky Derby blowout...and that Lucien Laurin did the same prep-routine with Secretariat 30 years earlier. But all told the worst offender of modern times is Nick Zito, who routinely preps horses at the public's expense with certain stakes goals further down the road. He's NO FRIEND of the bettor, and in my opinion Zito belongs in the HALL OF SHAME, not the Hall of Fame. Beware or this guy in 2005! He is treachery personified...not for gam,bling reasons...but for the long-term racing progress of his horse. Now some may excuse him flr that, but I shall curse him to his dying day and piss on his grave after he is gone! :mad:

[Joe Conte]

Back when I was a kid my dad had intimate contact with the night watchman for Brookmeade Stable, trainer Elliot Burch. The man's name was William Stonebridge (fondly known as 'old man Stoney' at that time). When BOWL OF FLOWERS made her 2yo debut Stoney told us that they're going to give her a race, and that we'll bet her NEXT TIME. Surely enough, Eddie Arcaro eased her out of the gate, and she proceeded to run a distant 2nd to the winner (Shuette, if I recall correctly), beaten about 5 lengths. Some weeks later she won by 5 and paid somehere in the vicinity of 8/5...for Stoney had told us, "Today's the day!" and the word was out. By they way, BOWL OF FLOWERS became the 2yo filly champion that year...so you see that even whre future champions are concerned, "prepping" in overnight races does take place. ;)

[tholl]

You should know that trainer John Ward was actually PREPPING Monarchos in the Wood Memorial prior to his Ky Derby blowout...and that Lucien Laurin did the same prep-routine with Secretariat 30 years earlier. But all told the worst offender of modern times is Nick Zito, who routinely preps horses at the public's expense with certain stakes goals further down the road. He's NO FRIEND of the bettor, and in my opinion Zito belongs in the HALL OF SHAME, not the Hall of Fame. Beware or this guy in 2005! He is treachery personified...not for gam,bling reasons...but for the long-term racing progress of his horse. Now some may excuse him flr that, but I shall curse him to his dying day and piss on his grave after he is gone! :mad:

Seems to me that sharp handicappers can pick up on that kind of thing; you have noticed it and therefore should be able to use it to your advantage. Many trainers "prep" horses often but that is something sharp handicappers over time can figure out. However the drugs they use, thats another matter.

[Valuist]

I heard he wasn't at the Breeders Cup because he was closing on a new house. I hope that new house he has is so expensive that as a 9 percenter, he has trouble making payments on it. Jeff, here's hoping the only positives in your life are your horse's post-race tests.

[alysheba88]

This is not a freedom of speech issue.

What would happen if someone at a regular job went public with such comments about their customers? Would be suspended or fired.

[rrbauer]

I think thats a facet of handicapping that you need to learn. 3/5 as being too short, and potential prep being another.

Comment: Agreed. The point is that Whittingham's "not trying" in certain situations was never held against him and (to my knowledge) he was never called into question by racings officials, newspaper writers, etc. for the practice. Charlie didn't give a damn about the bettors but it wasn't his style to be publically outspoken about much of anything (other than when P Val was beating up on Sunday Silence at the 16th-pole with a 4-length lead).

3/5 may be a reason not to make a win bet....would you leave it out of the Pick-6?

[Light]

What's upsetting with Mullin's comment is that there is a certain amount of truth to it. Every bettor,everyday tells himself he is an idiot for getting suckered into a losing bet.

What's shortsighted about his comment is it's scope. Horseracing is a form of entertainment and the entertainment industry makes trillions of dollars,for good reasons.

People need to have fun for sanity and health. It's alot cheaper to spend money at a racetrack,casino,restaurant,nightclub,etc than pay a shrink and tell him how you dont have any fun in your life.

One of may fellow horseplayers is possibly dying of cancer. He has become emaciated,looks 20 years older than he is. Last time I saw him,he just hit a nice one at GP. He said,"this is the best thing in life,nothing like it." Could he tell someone like that "he is an idiot?" Cost of gambling in this case:Priceless.

[GeTydOn]

So now trainers should be worried about what win percent they have?!

:rolleyes:

[TOOZ]

As silly as it might sound, what they need is a couple of lawyers who have nothing to do, and start a ridiculous class action suit by a group of bettors against the trainer(s)/track when cheating is discovered at the track. With the liberal judges out there, who knows what would happen.

[GeTydOn]

Pres. Bush has made class action lawsuits nearly extinct.

[GameTheory]

So now trainers should be worried about what win percent they have?!
Why not? No trainer should feel immune from having his horses being tested or even his barn being searched. And those that win a lot of races should get extra scrutiny, of course....

[GeTydOn]

As opposed to someone who might wait for just the "right" times? Everyone should be subject to the same scrutiny otherwise doors are being opened.

[NoDayJob]

As silly as it might sound, what they need is a couple of lawyers who have nothing to do, and start a ridiculous class action suit by a group of bettors against the trainer(s)/track when cheating is discovered at the track. With the liberal judges out there, who knows what would happen.

:D Sounds good. I know several good ambulance chasers. They foot the expenses too. :D

NDJ

[GameTheory]

As opposed to someone who might wait for just the "right" times? Everyone should be subject to the same scrutiny otherwise doors are being opened.So what? Every policy has a price. We should catch the most cheating we can. This is the same logic they use against profiling in airports. We know what the terrorists tend to look like, but we have to search an equal number of old white ladies just to be fair. I would rather catch more terrorists and cheating trainers by using resources intelligently, even if it means a few more grandmas will smuggle their knitting needles onto the plane or if a few small-time trainers get away with something once in a while. Both events will be rare -- let's build the dam before we worry about the leaks.

[GeTydOn]

So basically in your mind high win % = cheat.

:rolleyes: :bang: :rolleyes:

[GameTheory]

So basically in your mind high win % = cheat.
Not at all. Lots of winners (or simply lots of horses) = MOST POTENTIAL TO DEFRAUD. If a guy saddles two horses a year, he is not much of a threat because he only can affect 2 races a year. If a guy saddles 5 horses a day, he could really do damage. Which guy would you rather catch?

[alysheba88]

You should know that trainer John Ward was actually PREPPING Monarchos in the Wood Memorial prior to his Ky Derby blowout...and that Lucien Laurin did the same prep-routine with Secretariat 30 years earlier. But all told the worst offender of modern times is Nick Zito, who routinely preps horses at the public's expense with certain stakes goals further down the road. He's NO FRIEND of the bettor, and in my opinion Zito belongs in the HALL OF SHAME, not the Hall of Fame. Beware or this guy in 2005! He is treachery personified...not for gam,bling reasons...but for the long-term racing progress of his horse. Now some may excuse him flr that, but I shall curse him to his dying day and piss on his grave after he is gone! :mad:

I am all for jailing Mullins and the other cheaters. But what you described above is far far different. I remember that Monarchos race in the Wood very well. Ward told everyone all week what he was going to do and he did it. Zito makes no secret of what his ultimate intentions are. Every trainer will use a prep for a later objective. A handicapper needs to look at trainer intent

[andicap]

Isn't it called racing a horse into shape??

An NBA player will go out and play at 70% and not in mid-season shape. You know he's not running full speed (well none of them do, but you get the idea).

No athlete can give it his/her all every time. They would end up exhuasted and on the sidelines.

[rrbauer]

I am all for jailing Mullins and the other cheaters. But what you described above is far far different. I remember that Monarchos race in the Wood very well. Ward told everyone all week what he was going to do and he did it. Zito makes no secret of what his ultimate intentions are. Every trainer will use a prep for a later objective. A handicapper needs to look at trainer intent

OK I'll drink to that IF the trainers state their intentions explicitly and in a manner that leaves no question that they are/aren't trying. We could trade examples pro/con here all day to support whatever our personal bias' might be. But, as bettors (the primary reason the game exists), if we don't start demanding some disclosure and accountability from ALL of the trainers, then as far as I'm concerned:

Mullins is right!

[Suff]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/287496p-246151c.html

Mullins could have garnered some public sympathy for his case, but by lashing out at the wrong people - the betting public that supports the very game in which he makes his (very good) living - he illustrated that the people lining up at the windows aren't the only dopes at the race track.

[delayjf]

I'm still inclined to think a 24 hr detention barn would go a long way to stopping most of the drug issues. I'm sure their are some drugs that could be given way in advance, but I don't know what they are. At least would could then focus one them.

Heres what I'd like to see, a bridge jumper file a law suit after losing a 100,000.00 show bet when his horse ran 4th behind a over bicarbonated Mullins horse who placed in front of him.

[Pace Cap'n]

So now trainers should be worried about what win percent they have?!

:rolleyes:

When modern-day trainers reach win percentage levels that are double or triple what many hall-of-fame trainers of days past were ever able to achieve, one may begin to question if their success is due to superior horsemanship.

[alysheba88]

People need to get their heads out of the sand (to put it kindly) Cheating is RAMPANT! Wake up

[mikekk]

OK I'll drink to that IF the trainers state their intentions explicitly and in a manner that leaves no question that they are/aren't trying. We could trade examples pro/con here all day to support whatever our personal bias' might be. But, as bettors (the primary reason the game exists), if we don't start demanding some disclosure and accountability from ALL of the trainers, then as far as I'm concerned:

Mullins is right!


Then,if a trainer has a horse wired to go, isn't he sorely tempted to "aren't"? His owners and stable will love him.

On another front, Mullin's absolute disdain for the people that pay his (rather good) living is the reason I stopped going to the track over 10 years ago. I fully believe that most of the people that work there share his attitude. I think it goes back to the days when they were the only game in town - open the doors and get out of the way...here come the a**holes. Wanna gamble somewhere else? Go to Vegas, pal.

Then (simulcasting and internet) and the world changed.

Now I get 2 or 3 letters a year begging me to come back; when I do, it's really the same-old same-old. They don't know how to spell or say "Customer Service", much less use it.

A couple of years ago the Employee's Club at work decided that the track would make for a nice outing, and I was asked to arrange it. I called Hastings Park, set a date with them, and was told of the amenities that came along with bringing a group (free programs, box seats, decorating a race winner, etc). We arrive, our chaperone starts counting the # of people..."Oh, sorry, our deal only applies to groups of 20; there's only 17 of you." They even took back the free programs, for God's sake!! This from a place that has seen handle on live races go from 1.2 million a decade before to less than 250,000 now!

Hah, I spit on their stupidity. Apu treats his QuikiMart patrons better than that.

Thanks for listening to me vent. My longest post ever.

Mikekk

[PaceAdvantage]

People need to get their heads out of the sand (to put it kindly) Cheating is RAMPANT! Wake up

WE'RE UP!

[BetHorses!]

Veterinarian's cheat also, just as guilty as some trainers. As for the trainer that this thread is about, we should not even waste time discussing his name after that comment.

We should ban his last name from this site.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Gov comments about bodybuilding and other sports- drugs enhance all performers 5%.

[alysheba88]

The vets name should be listed in every horses past performances. A horse who tests positive should have it be part of their pp's. Much more disclosure is needed.

[Valuist]

If anyone doesn't think the drugging is rampant, go claim a horse. Try it in Kentucky. Then find out the horse won't even be able to be in training for a few months because its going thru withdrawal. Been there, done that.

[Cloud man]

Maybe a better approach would be to claim a Mullins horse and ship him to Kentucky and wait for that blue grass to turn the horses form around. You would only be claiming off of a 9% trainer now. Heck is his win percentage get much worse he might have to consider moving his operation to Les Bois Park, Wyoming Downs, or Blue Ribbons Downs.:D

[PiquetBT52]

I loved:

"I train to win and that's all I care about. It's not my problem [if the general public is deceived]. They ought to bring in slot machines, then we could run our horses and make a living without worrying about some crybaby calling the stewards and raising a fit."


He does not understand that slots are an entryway to get rid of horseracing. I work in a Nevada casino on the floor, and I know how much those things make. To put in our poker area we had to find a way to do it without taking out a single machine.

Mullins quote here reminds me of a favourite line from 'Let it Ride',

"There is no racing without betting"

About race bettors being idiots, I think it was W.C. Fields who said something along the lines of 'You can tell a horse has horse-sense because you don't see them lining up to bet on people.'

[Observer]

...claim a Mullins horse and ship him to Kentucky

Kentucky has had one of the most lenient set of drugs rules in the country. Not sure exactly where they fit in now, with the recent amendments.

[Memogram]

Horse Racing Bridles at Trainer's Remarks


By Bill Christine, Times Staff Writer


The racing community reacted angrily and with puzzlement Monday in the aftermath of inflammatory statements made Saturday by trainer Jeff Mullins, who denigrated fans for betting on horses.

"He said the entire betting public was stupid," trainer Laura de Seroux said. "The betting money is where our purse money comes from. Without that, there'd be no game. The things [Mullins] said are so far-reaching. I wish they'd run him out of town. Take his stalls away and send him back to Arizona."


De Seroux trained Azeri when she was voted horse of the year in 2002. Mullins, 41, moved his operation from Turf Paradise in Phoenix to Southern California in 2001, and has been one of the leading trainers locally, with a high percentage of winners. He saddled Buddy Gil to win the Santa Anita Derby in 2003.

Mullins ranks 11th nationally with purses of more than $750,000 this year, but his wins have come at a much slower pace since he ran a horse that had an excessive amount of sodium bicarbonate in his system.

The horse, Puppeteer, finished second in the $150,000 San Marcos Stakes on Jan. 22. The milkshake-like concoction found in the horse's test has been a source of concern at California tracks since last year. All horses are being tested at Santa Anita this meet, and three trainers besides Mullins have been accused of using the solution.

Since mid-February, Mullins' horses have been ordered to a detention barn the day before they race. Milkshakes reportedly mask other drugs and can slow the fatigue process in a horse.

"… All the addicts and idiots [are] crying because they lost a $2 bet," Mullins said in an interview with The Times' T.J. Simers. "It will never be a level playing field. There are a lot of things people don't know, and won't know. If you bet on horses, I would call you an idiot."

There has been little conversation about anything else at Santa Anita since Mullins' outburst.

"He was winning so many races, and no trainer's that good," de Seroux said. "They've been trying to catch him for a long time. You know, I finished second in races, behind some of those milkshake guys. Besides penalizing the trainer, they ought to suspend the horses for 90 days. Then they'd get the attention of the owners who pay the bills."

John Harris, chairman of the California Horse Racing Board, said a law that would enable the board to mete out stricter penalties could be passed by next month. Harris was unhappy with Mullins' comments.

"I'm a gambler — or let's say I bet a little on horses," Harris said. "You're not an idiot if you play. In fact, I consider it an intellectual challenge, and there are so many variables that that's what makes handicapping so interesting. We wouldn't survive without betting. That's the whole premise."

Mullins also said that Ingrid Fermin, newly-appointed executive director of the racing board, is in conflict of interest because she's the sister-in-law of trainer Bruce Headley.

"I was one of the people who worked to get Ingrid that job," de Seroux said. "There aren't going to be any problems. It might not look right to the general public, but she's very honest. Her reputation is impeccable. She's going to do a great job for the board."

Trainer Bobby Frankel, like Mullins, questions whether Fermin should work for the board, and whether veterinarian Rick Arthur should be in charge of milkshake testing. Arthur works privately for several trainers, treating their horses.

But Frankel thought Mullins was off-base in other things he said.

"It sounded to me like he blew his top," Frankel said. "What he said about the bettors was inappropriate and not true. There wouldn't be a track if there weren't the gamblers. There are a lot of straight shooters in this game. [Mullins] made it sound like we're all a bunch of crooks."

De Seroux said that Headley wasn't the only trainer who wanted Mullins investigated.

"There's been widespread venom toward Mullins," she said. "This isn't just a Headley thing. Some trainers have lost clients to Mullins, and they feel he's winning races for the wrong reasons.

"I applaud what the milkshake committee is doing, trying to clean this up."

Ron Charles, a horse owner and an executive for Magna Entertainment, which owns Santa Anita and 12 other tracks, was stunned by Mullins' comments.

"I'd like to think he was misquoted, but I guess he wasn't," Charles said. "It was mind-boggling what he said. It was so negative. You wonder what he was thinking when he said those things. It's very troubling that someone in our game would talk like that."

A bill has been introduced by Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) that would prevent people with a financial interest in racing from serving on the governor-appointed racing board. Five of the seven members on the current board are horse owners.

"I think this bill is a power toy for the Jockeys' Guild, which has had some disagreements with the board and pushed to get this bill introduced," said Harris, who breeds and races horses.

"The guild seems to have a chip-on-the-shoulder attitude. Board members can always recuse themselves if there's a conflict. It's rare this would be necessary. Being a board member takes a tremendous amount of time, and someone not deeply interested in the sport isn't going to dedicate that time. If the bill gets to the governor, I'd think he'd veto it. He's not likely to approve legislation that would restrict him in his board appointments."

[Observer]

Let's face it .. people say stupid things sometimes .. especially when they're heated about something.

Anyone remember some of the wild things Laura de Seroux was saying when she was about to (and did) lose Azeri??

[alysheba88]

She is to be applauded here.

[TurfRuler]

Here is a copy that I sent to the CHRB.

"I now live in North Carolina. I still enjoy selecting horses in thoroughbred races. I started this hobby during the years of 1978 until 1988 when I lived in Southern California. Jeff Mullins categorically calling all horseplayers idiots was alarming. As much money as the horseplayers bet daily at the tracks in California, this attitude should not be allowed by key personnel involved in running thoroughbred that they bet their hard earned money on to either win or lose. I may not be able to bet in North Carolina but his comments will be far reaching. Now the anti-gambling groups in this state can take his comments and use them to defeat any measure that would bring horseracing and betting on horses to this state. For now I will have to travel to Virginia but I was looking forward to visiting California again, expecially if there in no longer a trainer on the circuit named Jeff Mullins."

[kenwoodallpromos]

Why the hell did it take Mullins' comments to hear 2 trainers, the CHRB chair, and a Magna Exec say they give a rat's ass about the bettors?
Good if it took Mullins and I hope he keeps trash talking, because this is now the most positive talk I have ever heard about the bettors. How long will it keep up?

[chickenhead]

I can't help but find the irony in the fact that most bettors consider trainers, jockeys, and other bettors idiots, yet are *oh my garsh* they're morally outraged that trainers and jockeys consider them idiots as well.

Ask your average football coach about the average fan, and he'll tell you they're an idiot. Ask the average football fan about the average coach, and he'll tell you they're an idiot.

[Suff]

Here is a copy that I sent to the CHRB.

"."

I also sent a short note... I Cc'd the articles author as well. As of yet I have gotten no reply.... I'm not sure how many e-mails the CHRB might have gotten... But I'd put the over under at about 97. This raises another point for me... I understand there is not much the CHRB can do formally to Mullins.. But would it kill them to at least acknowledge my e-mail?

Something simple... Thank you for your interest and support of Califironia Racing. We appreciatte your comments and suggestions and will carefully review them in the hopes we can make improvements.

But I got a Blank.. and thats just a wee frustrating.. because it gives me the impression they care about me about as much as Mullins does.

[cj]

Suff,

I had the exact same thought. There was nothing impolite or unprofessional in my e-mail at all. But nothing, nada, zip.

[Suff]

I can't help but find the irony in the fact that most bettors consider trainers, jockeys, and other bettors idiots, yet are *oh my garsh* they're morally outraged that trainers and jockeys consider them idiots as well.

Ask your average football coach about the average fan, and he'll tell you they're an idiot. Ask the average football fan about the average coach, and he'll tell you they're an idiot.


I don't know if I ever heard an NFL , or any other Coach of Sports Franchise call thier fans idiots... Most people connected to sports franchises go over board in gushsing appreciation for Fan support.

I don't think people are morally outraged... they are fiscally outraged.


Thinking a Coach is an idiot for running on 3rd and 9 is one thing.... Mullins indictment of the entire betting community is another.

[cj]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=53293&subsec=2

More cheating from Mullins...response: "I can’t afford to go down there and have a hearing," Mullins said. "I’m just going to pay the fine. … All it is [in California] is a warning. I was really surprised it was a fine."

Guess you have to watch every penny when your winning percentage is cut by 3/4s thanks to the detention barn.

[mhrussell]

:ThmbDown:

..like several of you.. I have not received even an acknowlegement of my email sent a couple of nights ago. Mine too, was 'professional' and not profane (even though I was wanting to flame them...).

I hope that they have been flooded with emails..but they should respond.

[Valuist]

Chickenhead-

A football coach might make that comment off the record. But in print or on camera? They're looking at a nice fine if they make those comments public.

[chickenhead]

Chickenhead-

A football coach might make that comment off the record. But in print or on camera? They're looking at a nice fine if they make those comments public.

sure, I'm just making the point that it's not an original point of view on his part. "Insiders" almost always consider "outsiders" as in the dark, uninformed, etc. Usually for good reason. He was just stupid enough to say it out loud.

[Valuist]

Yeah it was real stupid. By a pathetic loser who has to cheat to win. He obviously opens his mouth without having any idea of the consequences afterward.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I didn't think you would be jumping on the "drugged if they beat mine" bandwagon- for something the asst trainer overdid with Zantac.

[cj]

If I can figure out what you are getting at, I'll respond. :confused:

[kenwoodallpromos]

According to the story Mullins did not have direct onsite control over the medications you are saying he was "cheating" with. Story says the drug was legal; but not on raceday.

[cj]

According to the story Mullins did not have direct onsite control over the medications you are saying he was "cheating" with. Story says the drug was legal; but not on raceday.

He is the listed trainer. He gets paid as if he was on site. He is repsonible. The drug isn't legal on race day. It was race day. He was cheating.

Where in the world did you get that he didn't have "direct onsite control" over his horse or the medications he was given from that article???

[Suff]

sure, I'm just making the point that it's not an original point of view on his part. "Insiders" almost always consider "outsiders" as in the dark, uninformed, etc. Usually for good reason. He was just stupid enough to say it out loud.

I understand your point.. I wasn't contradicting you... and I agree..

Having spent some time on the backside I will tell you my thoughts on it..

They are oblivious to the bettors... Its all about the purse... To sit in a Barn (as I have many times)...with Trainers, Jockeys, Jockey agents, Grooms, Vets, ...all they talk about is the Condition book,,, a trainers desk is littered with them... from all east coast tracks... and the overnights, and catalogues of horse sales and all this sort of stuff.. Not many are handicapping because it means so little to them... all they want to know is who is in and what the ML's are... other than.. its is 100% where the horse Fits condition wise and what the purse is... Thats where the bread is buttered... For every story you hear about Trainers Cleaning up at the windows,,,or Jockey agents cleaning up at the windows... there are 10 that tried that and went broke

Sure you see special scores.. they come and go... But to think many people on the backside are making a living or even STEADY scores at the windows is not the truth... at least not in my experience.

The backside looks at thier income as coming from the RACING OFFICE or the HORSEMENS BOOKEEPER..... Thats where they do all thier business... they do not have the direct connection with the windows in the daily ebb and flow of thier business.. Most of them do not even ponder where the People or handle comes from.. Thats the track operators responsibility...

Of course they know how it all works... but they are impervious to it.. The PURSE is the Prize... the condidtion book is written weeks or months in advance... what the handle is,? or where it comes from ? is not a concern for them.

[JustRalph]

Dale Earnhardt Jr. said "Shit" after winning a Nascar race last year and it basically cost him the championship.........his team tanked after Nascar took away 25 points and fined the crap out of them..........for

"actions and statements detrimental to Nascar racing"

http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/cup/10/05/dearnhardtjr_points/

Jeff Mullins is lucky the NTRA or some other body couldn't hammer his ass like Nascar

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course they know how it all works... but they are impervious to it.. The PURSE is the Prize... the condidtion book is written weeks or months in advance... what the handle is,? or where it comes from ? is not a concern for them.

And why should it concern them? I could care less if the backstretch thinks about me, Joe Bettor. I'm not even upset that Mullins called me an idiot, because if Mullins is juicing or whatever you want to call it, and I'm betting on races where he's running a horse, then he's right, I am an idiot for betting on the race.

I don't want the respect of the trainers or owners.

I'll settle for the only thing the backstretch can give me, and that's a FAIR RACE....

[Tom]

Mullins might be rioght if he thinks anyone believes it is a coincidence that his drop off and the detention barn are not related. I agree with PA, though - I don't care what the backstretch thinks of me - I have a very low opinion of most of them, so it evens out. But Mullins attidude tells me that he has no respect, so why I ever doubt that he would cheat?

[GeTydOn]

Mullins says he was taken out of context.

D. G. Van Clief says Mullins' comments are inexcusable.

[BobT]

I sent an email to Magna's corporate headquarters and got a very nice response back from them. The person did say that unfortunately they have no authority over what Mullins says or does.

[cj]

Here is the Mullins explanation:


http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27078

Detention ends tomorrow, lets see how his horses perform now. My guess is he'll play it safe for a while, until the bills roll in around the end of the month! :)

[Suff]

Here is the Mullins explanation:


http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27078

Detention ends tomorrow, lets see how his horses perform now. My guess is he'll play it safe for a while, until the bills roll in around the end of the month! :)


Ya know... after reading that.. I give him the benefit of the doubt on a few things. Probably did say what he said.. But he's getting into with a guy, who happens to a be a reporter and shit gets said. btw Cj.. On the other point of no repy. I called RoyM's office yesterday and spoke with his Secy. He's out of town all week and because of security reasons, doesn't access his e-mail remotely.

[Valuist]

PA-

Why are bettors who are suspicious of juicing idiots? As a bettor, I'm happy with the status quo. It may not be fair to the small time trainers and owners but as a bettor, the trainer is very important in the handicapping process and if I think a guy juices, I'll anticipate a big turnaround when a horse moves into that trainers barn, and a regression for those that leave their barn.

[andicap]

Hmmm, arrogant drug-dependent trainer vs. yellow journalist scum.

Kind of like watching Joan Rivers trash Hollywood celebs --

[Suff]

And why should it concern them? I could care less if the backstretch thinks about me, Joe Bettor. I'm not even upset that Mullins called me an idiot, because if Mullins is juicing or whatever you want to call it, and I'm betting on races where he's running a horse, then he's right, I am an idiot for betting on the race.

I don't want the respect of the trainers or owners.

I'll settle for the only thing the backstretch can give me, and that's a FAIR RACE....


I was painting a picture for people who have never been on the backside... because sometimes I get the impression from people out here that... Trainers and Jockeys and everybody on the backside is making a Killing at the windows. And its simply not that way in my experience. Backside people make money on the purse.. and 99% of what they are doing back there is getting horses as FIT as they can , while trying to figure out what condition they quaily for, or what level they have a legitmate shot to win at. When I've been back there.. no one is talking angles, or value plays or overlays or beatan lengths.. none of that stuff is discussed.

Heres an analogy That came to me last night. The relationship of the Backside to the bettor is the same relationship a CAR DEALER has with the PRICE OF GAS. It may determine how many cars he sells this month, or what type of car he sells this month, But he has no control over GAS PRICES and gives it machinations little thought, except to what Cars he will be showcasing.

Not everyone here... has the same level of experience around the race track. Many have more than I, Many have less. I was desribing how I see the backside for the benefit of those people who may be 200 Miles from a Racetrack and never been backside.

I don't understand your logis that if Mullins is running and your betting,, Then your an idiot? Did you mean now? or before he was outed? And when 4 guys at SA go down for Milkshakng.. how are you avoiding being an idiot? Not playing SA? I could care less about Mullins "Personal" respect for me... But I do hope he has a respect for rules.. and that indirectly means the bettors who play by those rules.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA-

Why are bettors who are suspicious of juicing idiots?

That's not what I said, or meant to say, anyway. Even before this news hit, most people thought that Mullins wasn't playing fairly. It was the worst kept secret in California. So, if I as a bettor were to continue betting races where he was placing his horses, even though I had a strong feeling he was cheating, then yes, I think I could rightly be called an idiot!

[PaceAdvantage]

I was painting a picture for people who have never been on the backside... because sometimes I get the impression from people out here that...

I by NO MEANS was trying to be critical of your post describing life on the backside. I, along with plenty of others I suspect, enjoyed it very much!!

I don't understand your logis that if Mullins is running and your betting,, Then your an idiot? Did you mean now? or before he was outed?

Before he was outed. Let's face it, many folks have strong feelings that many trainers are cheating. Mullins was one of the bigger suspected cheats out there....like I said, the worst kept secret in California before the news broke.

So, if I as a betttor had this strong feeling, and continued to bet against Mullins, I could be fairly called an idiot. Bettors DO HAVE CONTROL over where they place their money, or DON'T PLACE their money.

[Valuist]

I don't know if this was public news but he just got hit with a fine (granted, only $1000) for a post race positive at the Fair Grounds where he had a horse run back in mid Feb. The medication was allowable, but not on race day (see late in the link)

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/arlingtonpark.asp?intID=38421114

[Valuist]

PA-

Do you bet New York racing? Aren't there some trainers there that you are suspicious of?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes. And Yes.

Are my responses contradicting something I had stated earlier?

[Tom]

I... I'm not sure how many e-mails the CHRB might have gotten... But I'd put the over under at about 97.


I sent 78. Got no replies. I think around number 76 or so I might have called them a bad name or two. And I think I made a suggestion where they could draw entries from for Wednesday's card. :rolleyes:

[rokitman]

"Sometimes it's better to shut your mouth and let people think you're stupid then to remove your foot and remove all doubt."


Words of wisdom from Frank Lyons in the ESPN article

http://espn.go.com/horse/columns/misc/2009113.html

[Valuist]

PA-

I think I misinterpreted your earlier comments. I assume you have no problem betting ON the suspected juicers. I agree that if somebody is convinced Trainer X is doping and they lose a bet because Trainer X's horse beats them, they really can't complain.

[BillW]

TVG will air a Mullins interview at 5:00 EST Sunday.

[keilan]

Why would anyone believe a cheater? I could care less what this POS has to say today or in the future. In the past I adjusted for horses entering his barn and leaving his barn cause that’s part of the game for us players. But TUNING in to listen to him blame someone else for his actions/words wouldn’t get a second of my time.

Mullins can kiss my ass – he ended up 5/35 I think while his horses were in the detention barn – think he went 3/8 in the past week or his record would have been really dismal.

Any advantaged gained over the past couple of years for his owners has now evaporated. This POS should be run off every track in North America and his current owners should start looking for new trainers.

[blind squirrel]

TVG will air a Mullins interview at 5:00 EST Sunday.


conducted by TODD SCHRUPP,I've got a feeling this
interview will be more "LARRY KING" than a CHRIS MATHEWS
"HARDBALL".

[kenwoodallpromos]

Coincidence?

[KingChas]

I saw Mr. M's great form reversals over the years and heard what a great job he did of training (overused genius getting horse ready).I always had a nickname for him "Milkshake & Mullins (M&M)".I have seen to many dramatic changes in his horses forms, especially when he's in the big money races in Cal. I do agree the trainers and backstretch workers have an advantage over "us".Not meaning to offend anyone but this "Idiot" will continue to invest in EAST COAST WAGERING-you can keep the California tracks I don't need them.

PS: I do love the trainer from Cal. that injests the milkshakes himself ,pounds the crap out of the fans ,and salutes America.Whats his name? :lol:

[Suff]

Any advantaged gained over the past couple of years for his owners has now evaporated. .

On Thursday Mullins was saddling a Horse in the paddock and was getting razzed by some hecklers. The owner of the horse.. a fellow by the name of Michael House ....gave them the finger.

[Figman]

Here is the Albany Law School take on the Jeff Mullins situation. It's a PDF file.
http://tinyurl.com/6wo6n

[keilan]

Mullins has been around for a long time; for example he won with five percent of his starters in 1987 and with eight percent in 1986. In recent years he has attracted owners away from other trainers thus perpetuating in part a cycle of “who cheats best gets our horses”.

Back in the mid 80’s in our little northern city we would have handles over the one million-mark approx 7 or 8 days a year (on track wagering, before slots). Daily handles were never less than $500,000 and upwards. The perception was then that horseman began playing “silly bugger” sent their horses when the odds suited them etc. The purses in those days were quite modest but the winning p4 wagers and other pools more than made up for the purse money.

So what happens after the player feels that he’s playing a dishonest game against trainers, jocks etc –well he says f***it and finds other endeavours and leaves the game permanently. Some hardcore horseplayers revert to playing numbers, trainers/jockeys hoping to catch a big-ticket cause they can’t find the winners in the pp’s.

Okay lets fast-forward to 2005. Purses are higher than they have ever been in our history but the daily handle remains at approx $300,000 per race day. We have more race days, better stock, newly renovated facilities, simulcast and home wagering but very few newer fans. Our city has grown 30% in the past 20 years, on a pre-capita bases we would compete with any city in the world when it comes to gambling. Our province collects billions of dollars annually from slots, in a game that can’t be beat. (Our provincial gov’t has a zero deficient) Families are filing for personal bankruptcy weekly because of gaming addictions.

When the players/public have a perception that the game is made up of cheaters they will leave, the players that remain are fighting for pools a 3rd of the size they could be. The take increases and winning combinations don’t pay enough to keep enough players on the winning side of the ledger and now guys like Mullins calls us idiots/addicts. Its time the racing community is vigilant about policing their own, harsher penalties are seriously needed if this game has a chance to survive.

I fully expect men to cheat where money is involved - I and other players understand this. What I don’t get is the lack of penalties, the slap on the wrist of these offenders. Hell Mullins never missed a single day of running his horses. Cheaters in the long run take money out of my pocket because the handles shrink and that bugs the hell out of me.

Mullins is the poster boy of cheats in the game today but he’s certainly not alone, there are plenty.

What drugs, chemicals have done and is doing to the quality of the bred is another story --- it’s really kind of sad.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Yesterday's Tbred Times had big shots writing about how "customer Service" can bring bettors back and get new bettors- they concluded that whales and big bettors should be favored over others.
Between that, getting short changes on good info, and being brainwashed into believing speed is king, I would say it is more about being naive' than being idiots.

[jack300s]

I received the following reply from the California Horse Racing Board today in regards to the email I sent them last week.

Thank you for your comments. We will take them into consideration.

Mike Marten
Public Information Officer

[Suff]

I received the following reply from the California Horse Racing Board today in regards to the email I sent them last week.

Thank you for your comments. We will take them into consideration.

Mike Marten
Public Information Officer


Hi Jack

Did you send it to RoyM@chrb or did you use another e-mail address?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Why would anyone believe a cheater? I could care less what this POS has to say today or in the future. In the past I adjusted for horses entering his barn and leaving his barn cause that’s part of the game for us players. But TUNING in to listen to him blame someone else for his actions/words wouldn’t get a second of my time.

Mullins can kiss my ass – he ended up 5/35 I think while his horses were in the detention barn – think he went 3/8 in the past week or his record would have been really dismal.

Any advantaged gained over the past couple of years for his owners has now evaporated. This POS should be run off every track in North America and his current owners should start looking for new trainers.


I would think this will follow M&M for the rest of hs training years.This has hit the core of all racing.I dont think he is a very smart man chirping off to reporters and most of all calling people who bet idiots.Its very hard to find owners who pay the bills and its harder to keep them with a guy like this in racing.Its also harder to keep the bettor as he wants a honest roll for his money. From what I have read , Yes he is a cheat and should be banned..Hope some of his owners move to Florida.

[jack300s]

Hey Suff,

Yes, I sent it to RoyM@chrb. Below is the complete response.


Thank you for your comments. We will take them into consideration.

Mike Marten
Public Information Officer

"Minami, Roy" <RoyM@chrb.ca.gov> wrote:

[cj]

Wow, same exact response to me. Coincedence? ;)

[Suff]

Hey Suff,

Yes, I sent it to RoyM@chrb. Below is the complete response.


Thank you for your comments. We will take them into consideration.

Mike Marten
Public Information Officer

"Minami, Roy" <RoyM@chrb.ca.gov> wrote:

Boy.. They really broke the printing press working on that response huh? . I actually think its a litte humorous that they'd go to the trouble to send you something and thats all they had to offer. I keep assuming people are Computer literate...and then I remember that the Director of the FBI didn't even have a Computer on his desk 2 years ago!!



"Hey did you get that E-mail about Osama?"

"email? Whats e-mail? "

what a world.. gotta luv it

[Suff]

Wow, same exact response to me. Coincedence? ;)

Between all the contests I'm in ,,,and all the threads I get in... at this point I am getting roughly, 22 thousand e-mail notifications from PA.... A DAY!

I might of gotten it and deleted it.

[BillW]

Wow, same exact response to me. Coincedence? ;)

Spammers :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Between all the contests I'm in ,,,and all the threads I get in... at this point I am getting roughly, 22 thousand e-mail notifications from PA.... A DAY!

If you want to cut back on that, you can you know....

[mhrussell]

All-

..just to chime in too; I got exactly the same response. Guess they really care about this or else got thousands of emails... :ThmbDown:

[Vegas711]

People like Jeff Mullins are not worth a minute of anyones time. This reply took me 35 seconds ...enough said.:ThmbDown:

[Tom]

I think I would tend to believe Michael Jackson before I would believe Mullins.
He has already said everything that matters - the rest is now damage control - scripted.

[Steve 'StatMan']

I keep assuming people are Computer literate...and then I remember that the Director of the FBI didn't even have a Computer on his desk 2 years ago!!

I guess to them, Email must be Jamail's brother. :eek: :D

[mhrussell]

... just got a very good email reply from Mr. Shapiro (com. of the CHRB).
We shall see what happens...I am hopeful.

:ThmbUp:

[jack300s]

What did Mr. Shaprio say?

[cj]

Here is what he said:

A copy of your comments regarding the statements made by Jeff Mullins was
forwarded to me. I wanted to personally thank you for expressing your
opinions on this matter. Like you, I was highly offended of the remarks of
Mr. Mullins. Racing fans deserve better, including the respect for people
such as yourself that support the game. While I too am angered by his
comments and behavior, rest assured that he is not representative of the
industry at any level. I would hope you would come to the understanding as
I have, that his comments are only reflective of him and nothing else. I
also can assure you that as a member of the California Horse Racing Board it
is my desire to respond to Mr. Mullins in an appropriate manner.

I am attaching a copy of a letter that I sent to the Los Angeles Times after
I read the Simers article. Again, thank you for taking the time to let us
know your feelings, and I hope that you will remain a California horse
racing fan.

Richard B. Shapiro
Commissioner
California Horse Racing Board

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm finding him on the Qtrhorse and Harness commissions also.

[Tom]

WEll, Mullins said he would keep sending his horses to the detention barn before the races if it would restore the public's fatih in him. Not mine.
And he blamed the detention fro his low win%. If he was doping horses, OF COURSE it was the barn that did him in! Duh.

[blind squirrel]

MULLINS did appear contrite,you might too if you
had almost committed career suicide.

ripping the fans/gamblers,the people "paying the
freight" was a dead end street.

what's interesting is the bitterness and outright
hatred some of these trainers have for each other.

TJ SIMERS raised one interesting question,why
can't we know when a horse has throat surgery?

the NFL releases an injury report before games.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Why would anyone believe a cheater? I could care less what this POS has to say today or in the future. In the past I adjusted for horses entering his barn and leaving his barn cause that’s part of the game for us players. But TUNING in to listen to him blame someone else for his actions/words wouldn’t get a second of my time.

Mullins can kiss my ass – he ended up 5/35 I think while his horses were in the detention barn – think he went 3/8 in the past week or his record would have been really dismal.

Any advantaged gained over the past couple of years for his owners has now evaporated. This POS should be run off every track in North America and his current owners should start looking for new trainers.

Just wanted to express something to you guys that are on the "Hate" mullins trail..3/8 seems to me to be 27% win average and 5/35 is still 14% in the money.While im not defending him. Pleas remember horses are funny, Some you can ship all over still eat,nothing bothers them. Some horses get spooked at the change and go off their feed and perform poorly.I would hate to have to move my horse to a different stall before his race.This detention barn thing in my opinon doesnt prove a thing.What they need is to have a guard near the horse's original stall like they do with the stake horses.This will keep the runner relaxed and lso give the bettor the best product, Not some worried washed out horse coming to the paddock from a strange barn. Beleive me, This has a lot to do with the drop in wins.Im also stll not convinced that a milkshake si the "wonder potion".You have to have them right to win.!

[Show Me the Wire]

TJ SIMERS raised one interesting question,why
can't we know when a horse has throat surgery?

the NFL releases an injury report before games.

The other team can't buy the player on game day. Any surgery impacts the value of the horse, mostly in a negative manner. Throat surgery may positively impact the value of a horse and the current owner does not want the competition to know the true value of the horse.

Remember, the majority of races are claiming races, meaning the owner can lose his commodity anytime that horse competes in that race. Nobody wants their competition to know the true value of its commodity.

[Tom]

You can't buy the other player, and you sure as heck cannot BET on the game!
The bottom line here is that sport oe racing exists for betting purposes only. Without the bettors, there would be no game.
Everything MUST take back seat to the integrity of the game and to the benefit of the bettors. Holding back key informatin that will affect the outcone of the races in, IMHO CHEATING! I don not care about owner Joe's value in a claiming race....if it affects the outcome of the betting, it has to be public knowledge.

[Show Me the Wire]

There is a flip side too. There would be no horse racing without owners. No rational business man would let his competitors know vital business information. If owners are not allowed to keep proprietary information there soon will be no owners, resulting from the flow of red ink.

The racing business is a business first and formost. It is a commodities market based on the perceived value of horses versus the tangible value of the horses.

You want the competition the other connections to either percieve your present commodity worth the claiming price or not worth it, depending if you want to unload or keep your horse. If the competition knows propritary information, such as throat surgery they will be more willing to claim the horse on a drop, than they would be if the horse finished up the track its last 3 races and were not privt to the surgery information.

You can't give the store away and still expect owners to invest in racing.

[Show Me the Wire]

............., and you sure as heck cannot BET on the game!

:lol:

[Tom]

I deserved that! :rolleyes:
I meant legally, of course-with NFL approval.

[keilan]

McSchell

– Why bring the word “hate” into the thread? Your words not mine.
– Do you think Mullins felt a little pressure to win some races in the last week to bolster is win %?
– Is it conceivable that he might run some horses where he might win even if that meant dropping them lower than where they should have run?
– Do you realize that for every Mullins in the game -- honest trainers lose clients and purse money
– You probably don’t know the question to these questions yet you feel a need to support Mullins because…….?

Your post surprises me, as a trainer you should know that the detention barn isn’t a hardship whatsoever on the horses. You’re starting to sound like Mullins.

Nothing more than curiosity but do you have any horses running in North America or are you working somewhere as an assistant trainer?

[kenwoodallpromos]

The surgery I know of is called a "myectomy" and you can find info on it on search engines.
After owner Gill was suspected of cheating and denied stalls he was interviewed by DRF and said he gave a myectomy to many if not all horses he claimed. It cost about $500 and most are too cheap to have it done themselves.
I included the info in one of my posts and no one on this forum mentioned it, so I assume few bettors care.

I have had a few good wins by guessing by length of time off and trouble prior that horses have had a myectomy.
The surgery on some big shot horses are reported.
PM me and I will send you some info.
2003 Thoroughbred Times:
Badge of Silver had a myectomy on March 14 after he was believed to have displaced his soft palate during his sixth-place finish in the Louisiana Derby (G2) at Fair Grounds on March 9.

[CryingForTheHorses]

McSchell

– Why bring the word “hate” into the thread? Your words not mine.
– Do you think Mullins felt a little pressure to win some races in the last week to bolster is win %?
– Is it conceivable that he might run some horses where he might win even if that meant dropping them lower than where they should have run?
– Do you realize that for every Mullins in the game -- honest trainers lose clients and purse money
– You probably don’t know the question to these questions yet you feel a need to support Mullins because…….?

Your post surprises me, as a trainer you should know that the detention barn isn’t a hardship whatsoever on the horses. You’re starting to sound like Mullins.

Nothing more than curiosity but do you have any horses running in North America or are you working somewhere as an assistant trainer?

Kreed,Please go and reread my post..I said I am not defending him!..I dont know why you would think a strange barn wouldnt bother a horse.All I tryed to do is give you a little insite to what it is really like when you take a horse from the confines of his stall and put him elsewhere.I dont have a horse racing as of yet this year. I have a 2yo filly that is training forwardly.

[tholl]

Im also stll not convinced that a milkshake si the "wonder potion".You have to have them right to win.!

The milkshakes are not the problem. It's what the milkshakes are masking that is the real concern. At the upcoming Keeneland meet EVERY horse is to be tested for milkshakes. Will be interesting.

[andicap]

http://www.als.edu/racing/

This should send you to the page where the Albany Law School posted the March 7 decision of an appeals court overturning a lower court's decision in a case involving owner Michael Gill. The case was actually about whether the TRPB had to divulge the names of its informers in its case against Gill. (TRPB won on appeal), but the decision has some interesting background on Gill and milkshakes as well as his vets. Anyone who thinks Gill and Shuman won all those races on the up-and-up probably believe 30% trainers are just good horsemen.

The court said that milkshakes hurt a horse by enabling him to go further than his apparent capabilities thus making him much more susceptible to injuries. (In humans, trainers always say to "stop" whatever exercise you are doing when it gets too painful because you are liable to get hurt. Pain is a good thing -- it tells you when to step. If milkshakes artifically allow horses to go further than they should, they are evil.)

That would make sense because horses claimed off the milkshake trainers are not the same. I presume the appeals court judges got expert testimony in that regard.

[keilan]

[QUOTE=andicap] but the decision has some interesting background on Gill and milkshakes as well as his vets. Anyone who thinks Gill and Shuman won all those races on the up-and-up probably believe 30% trainers are just good horsemen.

The court said that milkshakes hurt a horse by enabling him to go further than his apparent capabilities thus making him much more susceptible to injuries. (In humans, trainers always say to "stop" whatever exercise you are doing when it gets too painful because you are liable to get hurt. Pain is a good thing -- it tells you when to step. If milkshakes artifically allow horses to go further than they should, they are evil.) QUOTE]


I’m familiar with milkshakes going back 20+ years when they were administered to harness horses. Occasionally I was given information about a horse before they ran and watched as they blew the field away. It was banned years ago and I had almost forgotten about it until a few years ago I started noticing that some trainers claiming t-breds were getting instant form reversal with these horses.

I remember writing notes on these winning horses that they suddenly had “more bottom” meaning they were carrying their speed much further than previously. For a couple years it became an angle for me – wagering on horses that had high pace numbers but couldn’t finish -- when these horses were claimed away from trainers with a modest training percentage and went to barns that instantly put “more bottom” into them, I wagered with both hands.

Any player studying pace and energy should have made the connection, I didn’t know what some of these trainers were using but I knew what I could expect when these horses ran back for their new connections. Now that more has been written about the benefits of milkshakes the circumstantial evidence seems fairly strong though I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that trainers are improving their horses using other illegal methods also, to believe otherwise would be naïve.

Identifying these trainers is fairly easy; instituting tougher penalties only makes sense. But my gut feeling is that not much will change and the game will continue in much the same way, as we know it. Anyone feeling optimistic?

[Dr. Carter]

The milkshakes are not the problem. It's what the milkshakes are masking that is the real concern. At the upcoming Keeneland meet EVERY horse is to be tested for milkshakes. Will be interesting.


Milkshakes don't mask anything. Truthfully with the modern testing procedures, Lasix doesn't really mask anything either.

[Dr. Carter]

I also wanted to add that Milkshakes are not a reliable performance enhancer, not even in the same league as EPO. Sure they might help an occasional horse but it doesn't do a damn thing for a lot of them. And the first time they are given will usually be the most effective. I'm sure Mullins has a whole lot more tricks up his sleeves than milkshakes. Detecting them however may be a bit more difficult.

[Stillriledup]

Its been about 5 years since Mullins 'unloaded'? Wow, time flies when you are having fun.

I heard Colin Cowherd today on the radio and he made an interesting point about sports fans and escalating ticket prices and whatnut. He said that we are addicts. He said this is why crack is never on sale.

Why should the racetracks lower takeout when an extremely high percentage of bettors are 'addicts'? Not saying they need GA, but they're drawn enough where they won't stay away regardless of how poorly they're treated.

Racetracks are selling the 'rush' of the gamble, That rush isn't going on sale because its like a drug.

Maybe Mullins was right. Idiots and addicts :lol:

[GameTheory]

Its been about 5 years since Mullins 'unloaded'? Wow, time flies when you are having fun.

I heard Colin Cowherd today on the radio and he made an interesting point about sports fans and escalating ticket prices and whatnut. He said that we are addicts. He said this is why crack is never on sale.

Why should the racetracks lower takeout when an extremely high percentage of bettors are 'addicts'? Not saying they need GA, but they're drawn enough where they won't stay away regardless of how poorly they're treated.

Racetracks are selling the 'rush' of the gamble, That rush isn't going on sale because its like a drug.

Maybe Mullins was right. Idiots and addicts :lol:Uhh...handle is dropping like a rock. It isn't like it is stable in the face of a raise in takeout. And sports teams everywhere are struggling to sell tickets in this economy.

[Charlie D]

Human nature to play the games offered, be it at stocks and shares, slots, poker table or Tote window.

[Charlie D]

By the way. Does Mr Mullins think all those who drink alchohol are idiots and addicts??

[tzipi]

Human nature to play the games offered, be it at stocks and shares, slots, poker table or Tote window.

MANY people make money and are successful with stocks. MANY people win money and are successful at poker. Horse racing? Virtually no one ever comes out a winner.
It's why the younger crowd steers clear and plays all the other games. My friends steer way clear except for a very few days I bring them out. Opening day at Belmont,Belmont stakes,etc.

[PaceAdvantage]

MANY people make money and are successful with stocks. MANY people win money and are successful at poker. Horse racing? Virtually no one ever comes out a winner.
It's why the younger crowd steers clear and plays all the other games. My friends steer way clear except for a very few days I bring them out. Opening day at Belmont,Belmont stakes,etc.See, the poker thing is a bit of a falsehood.

There aren't MANY people winning money and being successful LONG TERM at poker. More than horse racing? Most likely. But that's not saying much.

How many times do you hear about "name pros" going broke and begging to be staked? You hear that often through the years in poker. And these are the supposed best players.

[tzipi]

Always loved John Conte's(HRHC winner,OTBs Handicapper) quote after winning the $500,000 handicapping championship.

"Now if I win FIVE more of these, I'll might be even" :lol: :lol: :lol: So true!

[tzipi]

See, the poker thing is a bit of a falsehood.

There aren't MANY people winning money and being successful LONG TERM at poker. More than horse racing? Most likely. But that's not saying much.

How many times do you hear about "name pros" going broke and begging to be staked? You hear that often through the years in poker. And these are the supposed best players.

People are playing pots for a couple hundred or thousands. More than most of us spend in an entire card. My friends can win a couple hundred or 2-3 thousand in a week. Lot easier to win money in poker.
Plus there are way more successful People in poker than horse racing. Nobody basically wins over time in racing(john Conte quote above ha). Plus there are moneymaking tournaments all over in poker. Very few in racing.

I just think it's easier Pace(to win and for people to understand). You are right though, some do go broke. It's gambling.

[Charlie D]

Looks like we should all pack in Paceadvatage.com and find a poker forum.

[tzipi]

Looks like we should all pack in Paceadvatage.com and find a poker forum.

Hey I love racing and will always play it above other games. But we are the very few. I was just saying the younger crowd loves the other games. I mean hey honestly you know how much more easier it is to take down big money(small game) in poker COMPARED to racing. But I'm not trashing the sport. Hey I love it and always will :)

[Charlie D]

Only thing i see in poker is loads of people getting up from table with no chips left and one person walking away with pot.


Sounds similar to racing doesn't it.

[tzipi]

Only thing i see in poker is loads of people getting up from table with no chips left and one person walking away with pot.

"Sounds similiar"

I see loads of full poker rooms. I see YOUNG people. With many people in those rooms winning. I see many people in home games(5-6 people) taking home nice winnings. I see the televised poker all over tv with full rooms. I don't see them asking for bailouts and empty rooms and just older over 40-50 yrs olds playing.

I do see all that bad stuff in my sport though. No full grandstands rooms,no tournaments every week,no buddys at home sitting and playing horses for good money. Older crowd with very few young blood.

I mean you can knock poker if you want but racing does not not stand up to it. Hey, I would LOVE if it did but unfortunately racing is facing a dying off stage and they have to ask casinos now to come in to bail them out.
Which is a bad move I think.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Only thing i see in poker is loads of people getting up from table with no chips left and one person walking away with pot.


Sounds similar to racing doesn't it.

Poker Tournaments are formatted so that only the winner of the tournament will be left with chips, they play until all but one is knocked out, and strategize accordingly. This is what is regularly shown on TV nowdays. But in traditional live poker at the casino, you buy in to get chips of equal value, play according to the table limits and minimums, and can cash out at any time, ahead or behind.

The TV and big tournament winners get the attention and the big money. Grind it outs, some might win but more definitely are donating.

Hell, 20 years ago, before I got into racing, I gave up other games, played poker for 12 hours, drank at least a dozen free beers (outside of tips), dropped $75 for that whole time, and had one of the best times I ever had in Vegas.

[Charlie D]

The young people don't want to put in work needed to beat horse racing and thats why they are playing poker

My son is on Facebook now playing, he'll lose his chips soon, just like he has done many, many, many times before.


Lack of listening to pop and lack of discipline is his problem, just like most young ones.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Sounds similar to racing doesn't it.

Not to me anyway. Unless one is only playing the Pick 6's. Even the handicapping tournaments usually pay several of the top spots.

[Charlie D]

For there to be winners, there has to be many losers


Racing, poker - similar.

[tzipi]

Not to me anyway. Unless one is only playing the Pick 6's. Even the handicapping tournaments usually pay several of the top spots.

I think people are more successful at poker than in racing. Again as many people have said for decades. No one wins at racing over time.

I think there are 2 NY tournaments, maybe 3 in the whole year. There are poker tournaments everyday at casinos. I just dont see empty poker rooms with a few older people and casinos haveing to get poker bailed out. I see a thriving young money making buisness. You really can't even compare tournaments.
Hey Charlie if you think Horse Racing is just as thriving as poker and young people are just as much into racing and the tournaments match up, than that's cool. We'll agree to disagree.

[Charlie D]

Hey Charlie if you think Horse Racing is just as thriving as poker and young people are just as much into racing and the tournaments match up, than that's cool.



Don't think i've implied or stated anything like that.

All i know is there will be millions of pounds bet tomorrow on racing and the next day and the next day and the next day and so on over here on Exchanges and at bookies.

[tzipi]

Don't think i've implied or stated anything like that.

All i know is there will be millions of pounds bet tomorrow on racing and the next day and the next day and the next day and so on over here on Exchanges and at bookies.

No I'm not poking fun or anything. I was just saying I thought in terms of the state of the game you thought it was on the same level. I think if there was the same ammount of losers as in horse racing, poker would be dying off. People don't want to play losing games.

Wait are you talking about England racing?

[Charlie D]

Don't know much about poker except for what i see on tv, but like i say loads have to lose for there to be a winner of a Torney.

[tzipi]

Don't know much about poker except for what i see on tv, but like i say loads have to lose for there to be a winner of a Torney.

Wait Charlie are you from England?

[Charlie D]

Wait Charlie are you from England?

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gods County, United Kingdom


Yep :)

[tzipi]

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gods County, United Kingdom


Yep :)

I'm an idiot ha. I can admit that :D Just had to look. Forgot about the left side.

Yeah racing here is just hitting a stop. Poker is a big game here and has taken off bigtime. Casino tournaments,tv tournaments,home games,etc. Poker among other games are taking over. Yeah England is fine in the horse dept. America can't compete with that.
New jersey just got screwed today with their horse racing(NJ racing nearing an end thread). No revenue here. Many tracks are calling in casinos to bail them out as you know probably but that's the beginning of the end.
But again here in America, poker is way above racing. In crowd,money,tv and winnning.

[Charlie D]

Over here we can bet on most sports known to man including poker, but yet there will still be millions bet on racing everyday.


Blame the system and and it's decision makers for racings ill health Stateside.

[tzipi]

Over here we can bet on most sports known to man including poker, but yet there will still be millions bet on racing everyday.


Blame the system and and it's decision makers for racings ill health Stateside, not poker

No not blaming poker. But America has WAY more sports teams than England. How big is America. NHL,NBA,MLB,MLS,NFL,NASCAR,TENNIS,GOLF,POKER,NCAA FOOTBAL AND BASKETBALL.
There's a milliion pro teams and a million colleges and college sports teams and they ARE HUGE BETTING SPORTS.
Racing is not the only game anymore, like it used to be here.

Oh I agree the system has screwed itself. Racing could've done way a way better job with itself.

[dutzman]

The young people don't want to put in work needed to beat horse racing and thats why they are playing poker

My son is on Facebook now playing, he'll lose his chips soon, just like he has done many, many, many times before.


Lack of listening to pop and lack of discipline is his problem, just like most young ones.


I believe this the most underlying reason younger people prefer poker over other forms of gambling. It takes discipline and hard work to win at horse racing....let alone overcoming the takeout. Poker (and I play poker frequently) especially online, for obvious reasons is just more appealing to a younger demographic. I like to bet the horses, because first and foremost I love horse racing as a sport.


P.S. I am 28 years old!

[Charlie D]

Here are sports on Betfair you can bet on if you want. Still milions bet on racing.

All Sports
American Football, Australian Rules, Bandy - BaseballB- asketball- Boxing- Cricket- Cross - DartsFinancials - Financial Bets- Fishing- Floorball- Footbal - Gaelic Games- Golf- Greyhound Racing- Handbal- lHorse RacingHorse Racing - Virtual-Ice Hockey= Mixed Martial Arts- Motor Sport= Pelota-Politics-Rowing-Rugby League-Rugby -Tennis- Volleyball- Winter Sports

[tzipi]

Poker: You can sit at a table with 6 guys, putting in 300 each. $2,000 pot. 1st place takes home $1,500 and 2nd place takes home $500. You have to beat just four guys to win $1,500 or $500. Pretty hard to win that in racing as easy.
That's the draw I think. That's a small game too.

[tzipi]

.

All Sports
American FootballAustralian RulesBandyBaseballBasketballBoxingCricketCross Sport AccumulatorsDartsFinancials - Todays MarketsFinancial BetsFishingFloorballFootballFootball - FixturesGaelic GamesGolfGreyhound RacingGreyhound - Todays CardHandballHorse RacingHorse Racing - Todays CardHorse Racing - VirtualIce HockeyMixed Martial ArtsMotor SportPelotaPoliticsRowingRugby LeagueRugby UnionSnookerSpecial BetsTennisVolleyballWinter Sports



Don't think "virtual"Ice hockey,Martial arts,politics,rowing,snooker,Volleyball,todays market,darts,handball,fishing,etc compares to what we have and do here.
Huge pro sports and college sports world here. Racing is in a different world here now and that's one of the main reasons it's suffering.

[thaskalos]

You can't determine the profitibility of something by the percentage of people who fail at it. Of course the vast majority will fail...it happens in every walk of life, whether it be gambling, business or life in general. The way to judge if a gambling game is worth playing for serious money is by looking at its best and brightest players. How successfull are they? If we see that they are wildly successful we are encouraged. We know that we may never be able to become as good as they are, but at least we know it is possible...it gives us something to shoot for.
About 3 years ago I ventured into the world of online poker. While playing online I formed a friendship with 2 players who were new to the game, just like me. The 3 of us became good friends, and we decided to meet in Las Vegas during Superbowl week 2008. While there, they told me their story. They were both seniors in an Ivy League school, but they both thought that the big money was in online poker cash games (not tournaments). They had both made modest deposits in a very popular online card room, and they were going to take it as far as it would go. Alas...I soon discovered that I lacked the temperment for online poker. The bad beats just tore me up inside. I gave up the game soon thereafter and returned to handicapping horses. But every once in a while I log on to the online poker room, where, at the super high stakes, I regularly find my 2 friends, with tens of thousands in front of them, conducting business 5 days a week. In a recent phone conversation they told me that their "straight" careers were put on an indefinate hold...

[Charlie D]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/racing/gambler-prey-who-became-the-predator-1672554.html

[tzipi]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/racing/gambler-prey-who-became-the-predator-1672554.html

Good story :ThmbUp: . One hell of a gambler too.

[Charlie D]

Addicts and Idiots does not apply to everyone.

[tzipi]

Addicts and Idiots does not apply to everyone.

Oh yeah, I agree. You got big winners in every game. Some just more than others I think. But yeah that guy knows his stuff. Would be cool to hang with him for a day at the races to pick his brain and hear some stories. :)

[Charlie D]

Hang with raybo, Brohamer, Bradshaw, Sartin, Beyer, CJ, Tom, Dave Schwartz etc, etc and pick thier brains.

[Robert Goren]

Oh yeah, I agree. You got big winners in every game. Some just more than others I think. But yeah that guy knows his stuff. Would be cool to hang with him for a day at the races to pick his brain and hear some stories. :) I have been there and done that with a man who in the 50s, 60s and 70s raised 8 kid with only an income from betting on horses. He always said it was a good thing that he was good at picking horses because he was hooked. He died before the advent of Simulcasting and PCs. I often wonder how he would adapted.

[tzipi]

I have been there and done that with a man who in the 50s, 60s and 70s raised 8 kid with only an income from betting on horses. He always said it was a good thing that he was good at picking horses because he was hooked. He died before the advent of Simulcasting and PCs. I often wonder how he would adapted.

yeah, I bet you one thing. Racing is definately the best for sitting with someone who's been around for a while and listening to their stories and ways. Such a storied sport and everyones got a good one. :)

[Robert Goren]

One of my favorites stories was how he hit $1200 DD 5 times because he mistakenly bet the post position numbers instead of the program numbers. He always said it didn't hurt to be lucky.

[Stillriledup]

Addicts and Idiots does not apply to everyone.


It Doesn't? :faint:

[Charlie D]

It Doesn't? :faint:


Can you repeat the question so this uneducated middle aged man from Gods County, United Kingdon can understand.


Thanks in advance ;)

[kenwoodall2]

It Doesn't? :faint:
Maybe I qualify- I just realized that one of the best ways to keep newbies from playing is to charge beginners more per unit. By the way. why are the easiest bets (WPS) the most expensive per unit ($2)? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Maybe I qualify- I just realized that one of the best ways to keep newbies from playing is to charge beginners more per unit. By the way. why are the easiest bets (WPS) the most expensive per unit ($2)? :lol:

Interesting concept.

I never thought of this, but you're right, 2 dollars is actually too much money for some people who are new....they want to play 50 cents or a dollar to win, at least that's what people bet when they start out. I remember my first wager at a racetrack was a 2 dollar win wager and i was extremely nervous risking money on a horse race. This was the first time i ever made a bet of any kind, so the butterflies were there. If i was able to bet 1 dollar to win, i would have done that instead, but that wasn't an option.

[Shelby]

I'm pretty sure I'm not an idiot or an addict, so Jeff Mullins can kiss my ass.

I second this emotion.

[Hanover1]

Mullins has broken the trust of bettors on many occasions, and this marks another milestone, however I agree with the poster that said that players either do not want the truth, cannot obtain the truth, or demand the truth and will not get it.
Jeffs lack of suave' fare is evident here, but his message is the same. Do we know what goes on in the pro sports locker rooms? You can expound with an answer that declares that we have some type of rights, as a constitution, or law, to view a transparent event. When do we accept the fact that human nature will not allow this? Check with your local/national government for any clarifications on this and get back with us......

[kenwoodall2]

Interesting concept.

I never thought of this, but you're right, 2 dollars is actually too much money for some people who are new....they want to play 50 cents or a dollar to win, at least that's what people bet when they start out. I remember my first wager at a racetrack was a 2 dollar win wager and i was extremely nervous risking money on a horse race. This was the first time i ever made a bet of any kind, so the butterflies were there. If i was able to bet 1 dollar to win, i would have done that instead, but that wasn't an option.
Perception can be reality- 1 horse bet $2; 2 or more $1. Why not let people bet 2 single horse bets for $1 each. Twice the chance for a newbie to win? Then Mullins will have only 1/2 as much to complain about!!

[joanied]

I didn't get to read this story, none of the links posted worked...but, I guess I get what it's all about...Mullins has been on my $hit list for a long time...I have no use for this classless man...and to come out and say what he did about the betting public is an outrage.
I understand the concept of 'giving a horse a race'...trainers have been doing that forever, and IMO, it's a great way to get a horse fit and ready to run...a good handicapper will probably pick up on that, but the casual fan, going to the windows, wouldn't have a clue...but I can't think of any way you could give the handicappers knowledge of this in advance of a race...what would you put in the PP's...unless a trainer comes flat out and says this horse isn't in this race to necessarily win, that he needs a race, or that he's prepping...I just don't know how that particular type of info could be made 'public'...

but as far as the out and out cheating... I would really just be typing in what so many of us have done before...we all know what needs to be done to stop cheating trainers...but I seems the industry as a whole cannot come to grips with the drug problem and the testing is too random, the vets are not held responsible, cheaters caught get little to no incentive to stop cheating...the price to pay for cheating is simply not high enough...and I also think that some of the smaller tracks need to be shut down....sorry if that impacts a lot of folks, but we have so many tracks now, that it's impossible to sort through every trainers horses...and IMO, claiming trainers should be tested and their barns searched more than any other...it's the poor, unsuspecting claiming horse that seems to get the most drugs pumped into his system.

Bottom line though...I really dislike that IDIOT Mullins:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[CincyHorseplayer]

I think there is a little bit of jealousy with trainers about bettors.If there isn't they have some serious illusions.They have to ride the storm out with their prospects,we can eliminate them with the stroke of a pen.WE have the best of both worlds.Our only headache is handicapping a racing form and doing the necessary prep work.They have all the headaches from horse dung to out of the money finishes.

So to see this guy come out is no shocker.Hundreds or thousands of years ago when they "Put on the show" we were those humble,delighted peasants.Now were the backbone of the industry and they should probably shut the hell up.

[Hanover1]

I think there is a little bit of jealousy with trainers about bettors.If there isn't they have some serious illusions.They have to ride the storm out with their prospects,we can eliminate them with the stroke of a pen.WE have the best of both worlds.Our only headache is handicapping a racing form and doing the necessary prep work.They have all the headaches from horse dung to out of the money finishes.

So to see this guy come out is no shocker.Hundreds or thousands of years ago when they "Put on the show" we were those humble,delighted peasants.Now were the backbone of the industry and they should probably shut the hell up.

I'm clueless as to how you arrived at this conclusion. We have "illusions" because we have no jealousy? What would those illusions be? Your money is earned by taking risk, just as ours is. We both handicap upcoming events in quite the same fashion at times, albiet we forcast much earlier than you do by pointing a horse in a certain direction....but back to the point here-In your industry, whatever that may be/or was, are there not dishonest players? Is everyone else involved supposed to "shut the hell up"?
Not sure what the post is illustrating, other than distain for a poorly spoken interview by a trainer.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I'm clueless as to how you arrived at this conclusion. We have "illusions" because we have no jealousy? What would those illusions be? Your money is earned by taking risk, just as ours is. We both handicap upcoming events in quite the same fashion at times, albiet we forcast much earlier than you do by pointing a horse in a certain direction....but back to the point here-In your industry, whatever that may be/or was, are there not dishonest players? Is everyone else involved supposed to "shut the hell up"?
Not sure what the post is illustrating, other than distain for a poorly spoken interview by a trainer.

This guy dressed like a target,so he gets what he deserves.My post was basically an out loud speculation.With that amount of contempt for the player I think it illustrates exactly what I have surmised.While he may not be the representative of trainers at large,and I hope he isn't for you,he said enough to deserve some criticism and that's what I'm providing.

This was not a personal attack on you at all,so please don't feel it was.But to my post,trainers are stuck with their horses and bettors aren't.Were on and off them no problem.I'm respectful to trainers and appreciate their efforts and have a blast with them ontrack but I am 100% certain they hear players say that such and such horse is a loser and there is some contempt and jealousy going on.We have it easy.Were not anchored to a horse,sink or swim.If that is not the root cause of this outburst what is??There is either this feeling of superiority that they are above the spectrum of those who bet or there is jealousy.If there is a 3rd answer for this I'm all ears.

[Hanover1]

This guy dressed like a target,so he gets what he deserves.My post was basically an out loud speculation.With that amount of contempt for the player I think it illustrates exactly what I have surmised.While he may not be the representative of trainers at large,and I hope he isn't for you,he said enough to deserve some criticism and that's what I'm providing.

This was not a personal attack on you at all,so please don't feel it was.But to my post,trainers are stuck with their horses and bettors aren't.Were on and off them no problem.I'm respectful to trainers and appreciate their efforts and have a blast with them ontrack but I am 100% certain they hear players say that such and such horse is a loser and there is some contempt and jealousy going on.We have it easy.Were not anchored to a horse,sink or swim.If that is not the root cause of this outburst what is??There is either this feeling of superiority that they are above the spectrum of those who bet or there is jealousy.If there is a 3rd answer for this I'm all ears.

The answer imo is found in the character of Mr Mullins. Once again instead of addressing this particular issue, we once again read about "There is either this feeling of superiority that THEY (not just Mullins??) are above the spectrum of those who bet or there is jealousy.". A picture that was painted using a broad brush...this is my point.

[castaway01]

I love all the responses from the old thread; just who'd you figure too.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The answer imo is found in the character of Mr Mullins. Once again instead of addressing this particular issue, we once again read about "There is either this feeling of superiority that THEY (not just Mullins??) are above the spectrum of those who bet or there is jealousy.". A picture that was painted using a broad brush...this is my point.

I agree.Like I said my time spent with trainers talking about their horses and races and how the track is playing suggests that they/you guys are a down to earth bunch and as you alluded to,were both in the game of risk.Mullins sounds like real piece of work though.

[Hanover1]

I agree.Like I said my time spent with trainers talking about their horses and races and how the track is playing suggests that they/you guys are a down to earth bunch and as you alluded to,were both in the game of risk.Mullins sounds like real piece of work though.

Everybody on the backside knows this guy is a trip......
Most of enjoy watching you guys cash on one of our horses. Always made me feel cool. I always felt that I was as much a part of the show as the stock, and its actually a great feeling. With that frame of mind there simply is no room for al the negative. Its supposed to be a happy time, not an excercise in cloak and dagger skullduggery......

[CincyHorseplayer]

Everybody on the backside knows this guy is a trip......
Most of enjoy watching you guys cash on one of our horses. Always made me feel cool. I always felt that I was as much a part of the show as the stock, and its actually a great feeling. With that frame of mind there simply is no room for al the negative. Its supposed to be a happy time, not an excercise in cloak and dagger skullduggery......

There is a guy named Wayne Mogge that brings some Kentucky breds up in maiden races and he's about nearly 70% with them to win or place.I asked him if such and such was his horse and told him I was hip to his percentages and he thought it was great!!It's mid July and he's got jeans and a cowboy hat on and were jumping up and down watching a 6-1 first starter crush a field!!He won the purse and I won the bet.It was fun!!A guy named Charlie Lawson will talk in depth with you about any of his horses.When I was a fledgling player in 1996 I asked him about one of his closers and he listened to me talk about his horse for a few minutes.He still makes some time for me when I ask this 14 years later.The Silver Haired Fox they call him.Great guy.

Anyway I didn't want to single out trainers at all Hanover.This Mullins guy sounds like a psychopath though.And I think we both know it!!

[sammy the sage]

as of today...8/22/10...one of the so-called "leading" trainer's the last several years is an IMPRESSIVE 0-24 at delmar.. :rolleyes:

[joanied]

I fianlly got to read the srticle (a nice member sent me the link)...all I want to add, since I already posted about this, is I love the courage of Lyon's...good for him to speak out like he does in the story.

[Canadian]

The only thing I can add to what cj said is he should be made to pay for making comments detrimental to the sport of horse racing. If an athlete or manager said that anyone who came to a game was an idiot, I would think that sport would hold him accountable. I would like to see the same for Mullins.

Jim


Agreed. Tracks should be allowed to issue large fines for that remark, just like you would have happen in any other professional sport.

[affirmedny]

Interesting concept.

I never thought of this, but you're right, 2 dollars is actually too much money for some people who are new....they want to play 50 cents or a dollar to win, at least that's what people bet when they start out. I remember my first wager at a racetrack was a 2 dollar win wager and i was extremely nervous risking money on a horse race. This was the first time i ever made a bet of any kind, so the butterflies were there. If i was able to bet 1 dollar to win, i would have done that instead, but that wasn't an option.

You can bet $1 to win, place, or show at all NYRA tracks, All NJSEA tracks, Delta, and Evangeline I know for sure. If you can't it's your ADW (usually a programmer that doesn't know any better) or some dumb state regulation from the 40s that's stopping you.

[kenwoodall2]

You can bet $1 to win, place, or show at all NYRA tracks, All NJSEA tracks, Delta, and Evangeline I know for sure. If you can't it's your ADW (usually a programmer that doesn't know any better) or some dumb state regulation from the 40s that's stopping you.
I'm likimg NYRA better and better!