The Middle East Crisis?

[so.cal.fan]

Does anyone think there is ANY solution?
Any acceptable outlook looks grim?

[BillW]

It seems to me that we are overlooking the obvious. Iraq and others just stir that up that area to deflect our attention from what they are doing. We need to stay focused on terrorism, a problem that has grown further out of hand than even Bush is willing to admit.

Bill

[smf]

I agree w/ BillW. You see Al Jazir (sp?) taking a Palestinian slant on the plight of the Palestinians but where is the Arab world when Iraq gasses, shoots and kicks around the Kurds?

Uh uh.

No matter how eloquently or 'gentlemanly' someone presents the Palestinian situation, or the Arab world's spin on things (many Arabs think 9-11 was Israel- driven), they come up short.

So Cal fan,

Answer is no, at least not until the 2 sides fighting see eye to eye. They never have before. Doesn't matter what we (USA) do. Also, we'll never eliminate terrorism but if we don't kick some ass over the Pentagon and NYC, it would become a monthly event.

[so.cal.fan]

I agree with you smf, if we don't kick some ass, it just keeps happening in OUR COUNTRY.
I remember seeing film clips of people in Palestine dancing in the streets, praising Allah, children waving victory signs. This was on September 12th.
I also saw film clips of the people in Israel, bringing flowers to our embassy, people in tears, people flying their flags at half mast.
It is pretty CLEAR who our FRIENDS are.

People who kiss their children and send them off to be suicide/homicide bombers are clearly not as evolved as they should be.

Why? Why can't they just say NO to the INSANITY?

[Tom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by so.cal.fan

[B]It is pretty CLEAR who our FRIENDS are.

People who kiss their children and send them off to be suicide/homicide bombers are clearly not as evolved as they should be.

It is also pretty clear who our enemies are. We are just too politically correct to do anyting about it. The Middle East will never have peace. We are wasting our time trying to make it happen. I say we get out, stop dealing with any of them, getout of the Middle East and let them live whatever pathetic little lives allah wants them to live, with out us or our money.

What can we do about it?
Plenty - for starters stop buying gasolie from ANY oil company that
buys over 5% of its oil from the Middle East. There are plenty of them out there:

Citgo 0 barrels
Sunoco 0 "
Conoco 0 "
Sinclair 0 "
BP/Phillips 0 "

Boycott the ones that do:
Major companies importing Middle Eastern oil
(from 9/1/00- 8/31/01):

Shell 205,742,000 barrels
Chevron/Texaco 144,332,000 "
Exxon/Mobil 130,082,000 "
Marathon 117,740,000 "
Amoco 62,231,000 "

If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18 BILLION!

These hippocrits are all too happy to take our cash and then condem us. It cannot be ignored that there is either no leadership amoung Islam or it is the maniacs like Arafat and Bin Laden. They have declared jihad on us and look at what the cowards are doing in Israel! We can never trust them nor should we ever try. They have nothing to offer us. We need nothing from the Mid East except oil, and we can overcome that.


Start demanding the Detroit get off its butt and deliver cars powered by non-oil based fuels. They have the technology but remember, they are whores - they will only do what we insist on. No USA car companies give a damn about anything but money. Safety is not a concern nor is the environment - they are only addressed because it is financially beneficial to them. GM is already looking to make safety equipment optional to save money.

Register to vote and get rid of all incumbents, Both parties. We need fresh blood in office, yonger people who are not burned out or paid off. I had a great ham for Easter, but after a while, the leftovers turned green. It is time to clean out our political refridgerators. No one is good enough to be in office for a lifetime.
WE had better start taking this jihad a lot more seriously than we are now - they arre going to come back and they are going to come back harder than before. 911 will not be the end of it nor will it be the worst of it. We no longer wage war against countries or nations. The enemy is already here.

[so.cal.fan]

What about ARCO? That is where most people buy gas where I live in Southern California.



My late father always voted against incumbents. He believed they became corrupt sooner than later.

[Lefty]

It doesn't matter which station at which you buy gas. DEMAND that your Congressmen and Senators support Bush in drilling in the viable places in U.S. Do not let the eco-terrorists rule on this one.
They got their way in CA, no new power plants and population doubled and you see what happened. And who got hurt the worst? Yes, my state NV, and other surrounding states.
If you want more gas efficient cars or alternate energy cars, then buy them. You demand of business by how you use your pocketbook not by stupid demonstrations and empty words.
It will be over in Mid-East when a winner is declared and others surrender.

[boxcar]

What a peculiar name for a topic! Haven't you read?:

QUOTE OF THE DAY
=========================
"We reject violence and terrorism perpetrated against civilians as a means of achieving political goals."

-YASIR ARAFAT

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/14/international/middleeast/14MIDE.html?todaysheadlines

So there we have it -- right from the horsey's mouth -- right on the authority of the man himself---YASSSSSER. Now that there is no longer a Middle East Crisis, the U.S. can breathe easier, and Irsrael can even start to dismantle its awesome military machine, since it's no longer necessary to spend all that good money maintaining it.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
It doesn't matter which station at which you buy gas. DEMAND that your Congressmen and Senators support Bush in drilling in the viable places in U.S. Do not let the eco-terrorists rule on this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Like they will listen to us? I don't have a handfull of cash and that is the only language they speak. this is why I sat throw out all the incumbants and get some fresh minds in office."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want more gas efficient cars or alternate energy cars, then buy them. You demand of business by how you use your pocketbook not by stupid demonstrations and empty words.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" By refusing to do business with selected companies, we can send them a strong me$$age today. Loss on income will get heard in the boardrooms. Look at Jessie Jackson. That is how he makes his "living.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It will be over in Mid-East when a winner is declared and others surrender.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They said that about Europe in 1922(?) but they forgot to tell a little paper-hanger who did not agree."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Lefty]

Tom, Jesse Jackson makes his money by using Race as a means to extort it.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
Tom, Jesse Jackson makes his money by using Race as a means to extort it.

That is the point - whatever we use, it is loss of income that gets their attention. But like Jessie, we have to tell them why we are buying elsewhere.

[boxcar]

Originally posted by so.cal.fan:

>>
Does anyone think there is ANY solution?
Any acceptable outlook looks grim?
>>

Okay...now that I've come back to my senses by remembering that anything YASSSERRR says is worse than worthless, I do have the _perfect_ solution to this crisis. My solution would put both parties in a win-win situation -- and it can't get any better than that. Here it is: Since so many Arabs think that "martyrdom" is such a great deal -- such a high and noble calling -- Israel should fully accomodate Palestinians and give them what they desire. Israel should give the Palestinians, however, an option by telling them that they have 48 hours to literally get out town -- because if they don't, the Big Bad Sheriff will come with guns a blazin' to "clean up the town". After the 48 hour-period, Israel should simply level everything in the Gaza and the West Bank with it warplanes and helicopter gunships and tanks. Not one Israeli soldier's life would have to be put at risk. Israel just goes in and terminates every every living, breathing, moving, moaning thing on the ground with extreme prejudice.

Naturally, the wusps at the U.N., the EU, Russia, etc. would cry bloddy "genocide" afterwards, but Israel would have plenty of well documented proof of just how fond the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians more specifically, have been of achieving "martyrdom" status. Therefore, the poor Palestinians (with the help of Israel, IRONICALLY) finally get to WIN something.

Naturally, Israel wins because it doesn't have to give up anything, since the captured lands have been spoils of the 'the 67 war, anyway. (And How nice it would be to not listen to or read dumb and ill-conceived phrases like "illegal occupation" or "illegal settlements" any longer!)

Immediately thereafter, Israel could build two really nice shrines -- one in the West Bank and one in Gaza -- as memorials to all those Arab martyrs that she has just created.

Tell me this ain't the perfect plan!

Boxcar

[so.cal.fan]

Sounds about right to me, Boxcar

[boxcar]

I've been communicating recently in email with a lurker (who shall remain nameless) on this forum about the Mid-east crisis, and he was somewhat taken aback by my last post. He thought I was advocating genocide. Evidently, he didn't realize that my "solution" was strictly tongue-in-cheek. To save some time, I'm going to cut n' past from my reply to him part of my rationale for writing what I did on this forum. Here it is:

************************************************
I don't advocate that. That was strictly a
tongue-in-cheek post. The reason I wrote it was to demonstrate the utter absurdity of the Islamic
"doctrine" of martyrdom when that kind of teaching or belief is taken to its logical conclusion. Since so many Arabs and Muslims have so little regard for their own lives, then why should anyone else have high regard for their lives!? Aren't the Arabs actually inviting a genocidal-type scenario?
************************************************

But in an earlier email to this gent, I did propose a real and serious solution to the problem -- naturally, he didn't like that much either. Again, I will copy from that email what I wrote:

**********************************************
Now...If I were PM of Israel, here is how I would have been dealing with the Palestinian terrorst attacks:

First Warning: For every Israeli civilian you murder, we will kill 10 of your people.

Second Warning: If you fail to heed our first warning, and kill more Israeli civilians, we will kill 20 of your people for every Israeli civilian fatality.

Third Warning: If you fail to heed our 2nd warning, we kill 50 of your people for every one of ours killed, etc.

Obviously by Israel continuing to raise the ante, the Palestinian leadership would have to be willing to have their citizens pay a terrible and exceedingly steep price for the PLO-sponsored/directed acts of terrorism.
(The politically correct phrase "measured response" wouldn't even be in my vocab when it came to dealing with terorists.)

But you know what -- we wouldn't be seeing very many terrorist attacks. When Netanyahu was in power, he certainly knew how to keep the whackos in check, didn't he? You see, the Arabs, with their primitive tribal mentality, only understand a few things relative to an enemy: Power, Force, Victory.
**********************************************

Well, my correspondent was really taken aback by my plan, and said I should be "ashamed" of myself.
He likened my "50 of theirs to every one of ours" solution as "plan right out of Hitler's
Yugaslovia playbook" in WWII. A good analogy? Not in my "playbook" it isn't! Wasn't Hitler the agressor in WWII? But is Israel the aggressor with her incursions into the West Bank, or is this a defensive strategy that finally came to a head in response to the two terrorist attacks that took place about 3 to 4 weeks ago.

Let me state clearly: I believe with every fibre of my being that when a country is called to _defend_ itself, it should do WHATEVER it takes
to achieve a successful end.

There are a lot of muddle-headed, liberal thinkers out there who seem to think that countries maybe should try to "understand" why the terrorists are behaving the way they are. We need to have dialgue with them to understand and appreciate their motives!

Or that we should try to coddle terrorists -- negotiate with them. The thinking is that if we give them what they want, they'll simply vanish and never be heard from again. But this kind of thinking is dead wrong!

Or the other popular and politically correct approach is to respond with "mesured responses". Israel has done this time and again, and such a strategy has proved worse than worthless! You don't put the kids gloves on when fighting for your existence!

Terrorists are TAKERS. They commit their acts of violence in order to take away freedoms, to take liberty, to take one's sense of security away, etc.

Therefore, the only _effective_ way of dealing with these murderous thugs is take _more_ from them than they're willing to pay! In other words, you must break their will! You must make terrorism a highly _unprofitable_ venture to them.

Having said this, then, I fear that one of the worst dimplomacy mistakes in recent history has just been made by Bush when he sent Powell over to the Middle East to meet with Arafat. Powell's meeting with this thug did only one thing in the eyes of the world and other terrorist organizations: It lent legitimacy to a terrorist regime! It sent a signal that, at least under some circumstances, it's proper and right to negotiate with murderous villans.

I'm in complete agreement with Sharon's take on the meeting which he described as a "tragic mistake". I believe that the U.S. position now on the war on terrorism has been greatly compromised and weakened. Only time will tell, though.

But I'm also glad to see that Sharon, thus far, is sticking by his guns by saying that he will not meet with Arafat in the future. The next thing Sharon should do is build that "wall" between Israel and West Bank. That barbed-wire fence should be heavily booby-trapped with high explosives, and on the Israeli side of it, manned with Israeli troops. This plan would at the very least seriously curtail further terrorist attacks on Israeli soil.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Not being smart, but a couple of relevant question....

1. Who is the leader of the Palestinians?
2. If there is a leader, what have they done to stop the suicide
attacks?
3. If there is a leader, what is his/her postion on terrorism?
4. If there is a leader, what are his/her ties to "So-Damn-Insane?
5. If there is a leader, where was he/she during the peace talks?
6. If Arafatso is the leader, why is it so hard for him to condemn
terrorism, in arabic? (He finally, did, but who believes it after
so long?)
7. If there is a leader, what is he/she willing to do to stop the
violence peacefully and work towards lasting peace?
8. If there is no leader, how can there ever be peace?
9. Did Colin Powell learn anything from his recent trip?
(Mayber we should have sent "Stormin' Norman in his place).

Just curious. Wolf Blitzer seems to skip over this part of the story.

[Show Me the Wire]

Listening to the news today about President Bush meeting with the Saudi Crown Prince today and the message the Crown Prince has for President Bush about our role in the Middle East. Who do the Saudi's think they are kidding: they need us more than we need them.

THEY NEED US

The Royal Family is absolutely terrified of Sadam and need our military protection. Additionally, the Royal Family and the Saudi's need our economic support through the purchase of oil. Without American investment in their country their economy would be akin to the Palestinian economic model.

WHAT ARE STANCE SHOULD BE

Instead of pretending the Saudi government is doing us a great favor, we ought to let them know we understand that the Saudi government needs us more then we need the Royal Family.


Regards,
Show Me the Wire


ã Copyright 2002, Show Me the Wire. All rights reserved. No portion of this material may be reproduced mechanically or electronically without permission.

[boxcar]

SMTW, you're on the money.

How I would have loved to have been the proverbial fly on the wall during the five hour meeting Bush had with the Clown Prince (an infinitely more appropriate title for that audacious, presumptious, double-talking, two-faced moron.) , (What's scary, though, is that since birds of a feather tend to flock together, Bush might have taken a genuine liking to this guy.)

All I know is that the next time SAAADAM breaks loose out of his cage and goes out to conquer Arab nations, we should let him. We should allow him to kill oodles and oodles of his fellow Arabs for us. Then after he has offed several million of his brethren and taken over a few countries, we go in and take him out. Then we can add states to our Republic with the countries we take over.

Another Mid-East peace plan heard here first...

Boxcar

[Tom]

Remember, 14 of the 19 death pilots came from Sorry Arabia.
Next time you want to believe anything a Sorry-Arabian tells you, go back and watch the tapes from 9-1-1.
Never forget and never trust.
And beside that, this America and there is no such thing as a royal family or a divine ruler. Stop calling these people royal and call them what they are - dictators. I wipe my butt with any crown and anyone who claims to be royal is a wothless POS, and that damn well includes Mickey Mouse Charley from England and his butt-ugly mother who is just a drain on the English working man.
Any one who claims to be royalty is an enemy of freedom and it is high time the USA stopped bowing to these sickening imposters.
Treat trash like trash.

[smf]

Here's one good for a laugh. Wonder if he had a heart attack if he w/ refuse a woman to perform CPR?

http://www.dallasnews.com/nation/stories/042702dnnatsaudis.93e5d.html

[boxcar]

Now that it's been pretty well established by various media sources that the Palestinians were lying through their rotten teeth about a "massacre of hundreds" in Jenin, this leaves Arafat and his thugs with lots of egg on face before the "international world" (one of YASSSER's pet phrases). Therefore, I predict that the Palestinians will try using the seige at Bethlehem as being the next "Israeli atrocity". That whole situation with that church is a disaster just begging to happen. Wouldn't surprise me at all to wake up one morning to learn that the place has been reduced to a heap of ashes -- with the Palestinians, naturally, blaming Israel for its destruction.

And while on the subject of "disasters", we now see that Bush allowed himself to be conned by the Saudi Clown Prince to take a more proactive role in the Mideast "peace process". So what's the first thing the resident WH dimwit does? He sends some of our troops over there to guard six Palestinians -- putting those troops at grave risks. What inviting targets they'll make for the Palestinian whackos over there. And what will our illustrious leader do if those troops should buy the farm? Does he send replacements over there? Or will he allow himself to be drawn even deeper into the conflict -- maybe this time putting hundreds or even thousands of our troops in harm's way?

But even if a nary a hair on even one of our soldier's head is harmed, how long are the troops supposed to pull this guard duty? One Palestinian was sentenced to a year jail term, while another is supposed to serve 19 years.

I fear that Bush is playing right into the hands of those A-Rabs who dearly want to see the U.S. drawn militarily into the crisis.

Boxcar

[Tom]

I have never heard anything more stupid than using an army to keep the peace. You use armies to kill people and break things.
When will this country learn that if troops are needed to keep peace,there is no peace. I can't beleive that they let that little rat-b*st*rd terroist Arrafat go free to cause more trouble. This tells me our war on terrorism is operating with a couple of loose screws somewhere. How many more will die as the price for this maggot's freedom. I think it is time to let the Generals take over and let the pretty-boys go back to mommy and daddy in Tax-us.
Two Bushes - two blown opportunities.

[boxcar]

Some things are worth mentioning here in light of yesterday's latest Palestinian terrorist attack in that little town outside of Tel Aviv. These are:

1-- Yesterday's attack occurred at just about the same time Sharon was meeting with Bushie. The same thing happened the last time Sharon visited with Bush, and there was also an attack on Powell's last visit to Israel. So, anytime there'a a push for peace, some Palestinian homocidal maniac will attack. A very predictable pattern has been established here.

2-- There's megabytes of irony in the fact that not one nation in the E.U. wanted to volunteer to take any of the whackos held up in the Church of the Nativity.

Moreover, not one ARAB nation wanted any of these thugs either. Egypt didn't want any. Jordan didn't -- nor did the Saudis, etc.

Furthermore, the generous, big-hearted, gracious, tolerant and ever-forgiving Vatican who came up with the lame-brained idea to begin with, evidently didn't want anything to do with the scumbuckets either. I suppose it's much easier to possess such fine and noble virtues when it is at some other country's expense!

Yet, these are the governments who continually and incessantly blame Israel of being the aggressor and the obstacle to the Palestinians achieving their stated goal of statehood status. In other words, most of the world fully expects Israel to allow the Palestinians to establish a TERRORIST state that would contain _thousands_ of these slimeballs that would wind up living right next door to Israel. But not one country wanted so much as _one_ of these lowlifes. No shortage of hyporcrisy on this planet, is there?

3-- Pres Clueless is still sending Tenet back over to the Middle East to restructure and reform the Palestinian Authority -- even though the evidence abounds that the PA is very much part of the terrorist problem over there. Wouldn't it be easier for a leopard to change it spots, or for the Ethiopian to change the color of his skin before anyone would get the PA to change its muderous mindset?

4-- It was also very predicable in the wake of the latest Hamas terrorist attack that Arafat would soundly "condemn" the attack (in English, of course), and then immediately offer up as an excuse that the PA was powerless to stop the attack and will be helpless to prevent future attacks after all the nasty things Israel did recently in the West Bank. YASSER then went on to call for help from the U.S. and international community in terms of "peacekeepers" to help him restructure his PA. As I stated previously, Arafat would dearly love to draw the U.S. into this conflict, so his call for "assistance" did not come as a surprise.

5-- The _only_ ray of hope after this latest tragedy was offered up last night in Sharon's very tough speech before he left for home. He not only fully subscribed to the original Bush doctrine, but to my "doctrine", as well that stated there will never be peace between Israel and the Palestinians until one side thoroughly defeats the other. Essentially, Sharon stated this very thing last night by saying that Israel will preempt these attacks and kill her enemies before her enemies do more harm to her. He then went on to say that after victory had been achieved (by Israel, of course),then the two parties could sit down to talk peace. Amen!

I just hope to God that our Clueless Wonder suffers many sleepless nights after that speech, and that Israel pulverizes a multitude of Palestinians into such fine dust that they will be indistinquishable from the desert sands.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

The following commentary is a very interesting read. In fact, it reminded me to get my hands on Pryce-Jones' book (click on the link).

The book has been touted as a "must read" by several people, and it does get very good reader reviews on Amazon. The author also reveals a very little known and advertised fact: The Palestinians are not very well liked or received by their Arab brothers. Once one wraps his mind around this little factoid, it opens the floodgates to all kinds of questions about what is _really_ going on in the Middle East?

Here is the link:

http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire050902.asp

Boxcar