Duplicity-Lies-Deceit: Situation Normal for Dems

[JustRalph]

From Ann Coulter. A very interesting perspective.........on the latest Dem/Lib so called controversy........

http://www.anncoulter.com/images/logo.gif

REPUBLICANS, BLOGGERS AND GAYS, OH MY!
by Ann Coulter
February 23, 2005

In response to the public disgrace and ruin of New York Times editor Howell Raines, CBS anchor Dan Rather and CNN news director Eason Jordan, liberals are directing their fury at the blogs. Once derided as people sitting around their living rooms in pajamas, now obscure writers for unknown Web sites are coming under more intensive background checks than CIA agents.

The heretofore-unknown Jeff Gannon of the heretofore-unknown "Talon News" service was caught red-handed asking friendly questions at a White House press briefing. Now the media is hot on the trail of a gay escort service that Gannon may have run some years ago. Are we supposed to like gay people now, or hate them? Is there a Web site where I can go to and find out how the Democrats want me to feel about gay people on a moment-to-moment basis?

Liberals keep rolling out a scrolling series of attacks on Gannon for their Two Minutes Hate, but all their other charges against him fall apart after three seconds of scrutiny. Gannon's only offense is that he may be gay.

First, liberals claimed Gannon was a White House plant who received a press pass so that he could ask softball questions — a perk reserved for New York Times reporters during the Clinton years. Their proof was that while "real" journalists (like Jayson Blair) were being denied press passes, Gannon had one, even though he writes for a Web site that no one has ever heard of — but still big enough to be a target of liberal hatred! (By the way, if writing for a news organization with no viewers is grounds for being denied a press pass, why do MSNBC reporters have them?)

On the op-ed page of The New York Times, Maureen Dowd openly lied about the press pass, saying: "I was rejected for a White House press pass at the start of the Bush administration, but someone with an alias, a tax evasion problem and Internet pictures where he posed like the 'Barberini Faun' is credentialed?"

Press passes can't be that hard to come by if the White House allows that old Arab Helen Thomas to sit within yards of the president. Still, it would be suspicious if Dowd were denied a press pass while someone from "Talon News" got one, even if he is a better reporter.

But Dowd was talking about two different passes without telling her readers (a process now known in journalism schools as "Dowdification"). Gannon didn't have a permanent pass; he had only a daily pass. Almost anyone can get a daily pass — even famed Times fantasist Maureen Dowd could have gotten one of those. A daily pass and a permanent pass are altogether different animals. The entire linchpin of Dowd's column was a lie. (And I'm sure the Times' public editor will get right on Dowd's deception.)

Finally, liberals expressed shock and dismay that Gannon's real name is "James Guckert." On MSNBC's "Hardball," Chris Matthews introduced the Gannon scandal this way: "Coming up, how did a fake news reporter from a right-wing Web site get inside the White House press briefings and presidential news conferences?"

Reporter David Shuster then gave a report on "the phony alias Guckert used to play journalist" — as opposed to the real name Shuster uses to play journalist. (You can tell Schuster is a crackerjack journalist because he uses phrases like "phony alias.") With all the subtlety of a gay-bashing skinhead, Matthews spent the rest of the segment seeing how many times he could smear Gannon by mentioning "HotMilitaryStuds.com" and laughing.

Any day now, Matthews will devote entire shows to exposing Larry Zeigler, Gerald Riviera and Michael Weiner — aka Larry King, Geraldo Rivera and Matthews' former MSNBC colleague Michael Savage. As a newspaper reporter, Wolf Blitzer has written under the names Ze'ev Blitzer and Ze'ev Barak. The greatest essayist of modern times was Eric Blair, aka George Orwell. The worst essayist of modern times is "TRB" of The New Republic.

Air America radio host and "Nanny" impersonator "Randi Rhodes" goes by a fake name, and she won't even tell people what her real last name is. (She says for "privacy reasons." That name must be a real doozy.) As Insideradio.com describes Rhodes, she refuses "to withhold anything from her listeners" and says conservatives "are less likely to share such things." How about sharing your name, Randi? We promise not to laugh.

Democrats in Congress actually demanded that an independent prosecutor investigate how Gannon got into White House press conferences while writing under an invented name. How did Gary Hartpence, Billy Blythe and John Kohn (Gary Hart, Bill Clinton and John Kerry) run for president under invented names? Admittedly, these men were not reporters for the prestigious "Talon News" service; they were merely Democrats running for president.

Liberals keep telling us the media isn't liberal, but in order to retaliate for the decimation of major news organizations like The New York Times, CBS News and CNN, all they can do is produce the scalp of an obscure writer for an unknown conservative Web page. And unlike Raines, Rather and Jordan, they can't even get Gannon for incompetence on the job. (Also unlike Raines, Rather and Jordan, Gannon has appeared on TV and given a series of creditable interviews in his own defense, proving our gays are more macho than their straights.)

Gannon didn't write about gays. No "hypocrisy" is being exposed. Liberals' hateful, frothing-at-the-mouth campaign against Gannon consists solely of their claim that he is gay.

[46zilzal]

Consider the source
How totally UN-biased she is

[Secretariat]

Anne Coulter?...LOL! Thanks JR, needed that one.

[Tom]

Well, when you put here next to Randi Rhodes, Ed Schultz, or Al Franken, she looks like a genius. Put her next to Michael Moore and she shines like the sun!
I find AirAmerica a great cure for constipation. :D

[JustRalph]

I notice you are not attempting to debate any of her points..............

[Suff]

I notice you are not attempting to debate any of her points..............

Why? Is she doing your thinking for you? What she thinks is of no consequence to me... nor you , I would hope?

That is the important thing... What DO YOU think of a Prostitute with a Fake name , working for a fake news orginization getting credentialed into the White House?

I don't think its to sharp. To say the least. But I have bigger fish to fry than worrying about this. Although I do recall two State of The Union's ago he had Achman Chalibi into the Captial Building.... sat right behind Laura Bush as I recall. A month Later they raided his gig in Iraq and labled him a Double Agent for Iran. That was nice. An Iranian Double agent sitting a row behind the first lady @ the State of the Union. You think Iran was laughing that night?

They may want to tighten the screening process. That may not be a "bad" idea. Thats my only thought on that.

As far as what Ann Coulter thinks? She's entitled. But she don't think for me , thank you very much. I'll form my own opinions and I hope you do as well.

[JustRalph]

That is the important thing... What DO YOU think of a Prostitute with a Fake name , working for a fake news orginization getting credentialed into the White House?

That is not the point of the article or the post. The point is how it was portrayed by the the liberal media. I don't let anybody do my thinking for me. You know that by now.

[Suff]

That is not the point of the article or the post. The point is how it was portrayed by the the liberal media.

I don't see alot in there... chris matthews uses gaymilitarystuds as a hook to get people to stay on through a commercial break? Standard Operating Procedure in Broadcasting... especially when your at the Bottom of the barrel in ratings.... Its a "If it Bleeds--it leads" story... Sensationalism.

Last I checked close to 2500 radio stations in America describe themselves as "Christian Radio"... Thats almost 15% OF ALL radio stations in teh country. I'd gamble that less than 1/2 of the remaining or more like 25% would out right call themselves LIBERAL radio. Fox news is the Televison Cable Leader... Rush Limbaugh and his kind are the Radion leaders. I'm having trouble viewing Republicans as "victims" in the opinion business. Clearly teh right has a level playing field if not one sided thier way. It frustrating to continously hear a BIAS from the right. News orginizations hire columnist.. colmunist write from a perspective. Thats Ok.. Much like a DRF columnist writes from his perspective. As far as Maureen Dowd... I don't see where she proves she is lying? do you? Dowd says she was denied credentials... Coulter only says "I bet she wasn't".... Thats an opinion.

We could go on... but why. For purposes of getting a Reply from you about the ISSUE itself... I'll acquiesce your point about liberal Bias on the story.

Now... What do you think about a Prostitute/Pimp with a Phony name , representing a Phony news orginization getting white house and presidential press briefing credentials? No Story? A story? Acceptable?

Meanwhile.. I am Omitting that he is/was a GAY prostitute and Gay PIMP... Although based on many conservative opinions on Homosexuality... I find that an interesting twist. But Gay or straight makes no differnence to me.

[Suff]

and people writing Books, articles and columns Under GHOST names is Common... Extremely common.

getting into the White House on a GHOST name is a whole nutha ball game. She is off the charts with those comparsions.

[ElKabong]

I
Now... What do you think about a Prostitute/Pimp with a Phony name , representing a Phony news orginization getting white house and presidential press briefing credentials? No Story? A story? Acceptable?

.

Since I'd never heard of Guckert, never read Guckert, never heard of talon.com (or whatever the site is), never read talon.co, it means NNNNothing to me. When I heard this "story " come out, I thought maybe some big name guy went gay that would be a real embarrassment for his party. Like a Barney Frank or something. Instead it was someone few ever heard of, and no one reads.

I listen to a lot of radio "shows" and read some of their blogs/ op-eds, some being conservative, some moderate. I don't look to them to provide my thinking for me, I'm looking for (1) facts, and (2) a different side of the story than what the Rathers and Jennings feed the public. By now we should all agree Rather, etc aren't/ haven't been in control of the truth on some critical issues needing some unbiased reporting.

I make my own decisions.

[Suff]

Since I'd never heard of Guckert, never read Guckert, never heard of talon.com (or whatever the site is), never read talon.co, it means NNNNothing to me. .


Well thats not entirley accurate. From what a pick up... Guckert was a Bush Favorite. and lobbed softball questions. Only a Limited amount of reporters get called on by the President at Press Conferences or by the Presidents spokerperson at press briefings. As a Result of that... many of the reporters are writing storys about the presidents answers on questions that orginated from Gannon -Gucket? Also.. any audio clips you may have heard on a radio broadcast...or a video clip may have seen on televison broadcast was Guckets work many times. So your not immune from his Fraud.


And I'd be curious to ask you this... If another reporter you have never read or heard of, got into the white house on a phony name. worked for a non-descipt liberal WWW site, and was a Gay Prostitute, and asked the President questions in a confrotational manner from a Democrats posistion... would you still be as ambivalent? I doubt it.

I coudl see the headlines now..

Morally depraived, Possesed by Satan , sicko Gay prostitute with phony name and affiliation accused of Berating the President in Briefing. lol.. Thats funny.. because I know thats what woulda gone down.


The whole this is funny to me.

[Tom]

What bothers me is that what happend when a fake journalist gets into the WH but he is really an Al Qeda operative? The home of the guy in charge of the war on terror needs to be tad bit more on the ball than it was that day.
I thinnk the guy that lives there once said "We have to be right 100% of the time and they only ned to right once. (parphrased)

[ElKabong]

Guckert was a Bush Favorite. and lobbed softball questions. Only a Limited amount of reporters get called on by the President at Press Conferences or by the Presidents spokerperson at press briefings.

Sounds like Helen Thomas to me (probably dresses like her too). You remember her, the old lady that would look up lovingly in a grandma way at Slick and pitch softballs at press conf's... Kerry did the same on the campaign trail if you recall. When the swiftvets rose up, he basically didn't give interviews for awhile after that. Reporters travelled with him, yet he wasn't asked direct questions. Reason I'm sure is, if someone did ask him difficult questions, or questions that exposed his flaws, mistakes, lies and weak leadership capabilities, they'd be tossed off the travel team. His "people" were answering swiftvet accusations for a month or more w/o a peep from Kerry on camera.

Smart on his part. He looks uncomfortable and gets upset when pressured.

Bottom line is....I'm sure every administration has their softball tossers. I just live with it, listen to all sides and angles and go from there. I still maintain that I never heard of this guy Guckert.....Damn sure heard of Helen Thomas, tho. Saw her almost daily, yet I don't know anybody that ever saw Guckert.....wonder why?

If another reporter you have never read or heard of, got into the white house on a phony name. worked for a non-descipt liberal WWW site, and was a Gay Prostitute, and asked the President questions in a confrotational manner from a Democrats posistion... would you still be as ambivalent? I doubt it.

Replace your word "reporter" for "fat, slovenly, drunken partisan politician who drowns young women and gets away with at best cowardice, at worst murder", then I'd say it happens on a daily basis. His name is Ted Kennedy.

Once again, I see HIM all the fricken time, yet I never saw Guckert (and don't want to).

FWIW suff, I think it's funny also. This w/ never change, unfortunately.

[Suff]

Guckert was a Bush Favorite. and lobbed softball questions. Only a Limited amount of reporters get called on by the President at Press Conferences or by the Presidents spokerperson at press briefings.
[quote]
Sounds like Helen Thomas to me (probably dresses like her too). You remember her, the old lady that would look up lovingly in a grandma way at Slick and pitch softballs at press conf's...

Your losing me here.. because HT was there on her real name, for a real News group, and was present through.. Reagan, Bush et al.. so she lobbed at all. Not exactly sure how she squeezes into this situation.. where this guy just showed up recently, and was there under false Pretences.


Kerry did the same on the campaign trail if you recall. When the swiftvets rose up, he basically didn't give interviews for awhile after that. Reporters travelled with him, yet he wasn't asked direct questions. Reason I'm sure is, if someone did ask him difficult questions, or questions that exposed his flaws, mistakes, lies and weak leadership capabilities,


When I read stuff like this it just breaks my heart. Not for John Kerry.. But for the Troops in Iraq Today. This is my take on that. Kerry served on a Navy Frigate in the Gulf of Tonkin for one year prior to Captaining a swift Boat in the Mekong Delta. Gulf of Tonkin was considered part of the Combat Theatre. Vietnam was One Year Tours. He Could have just came home a Combat Veteran then.. But he Volunteered to go in Country. Was awarded 3 Purple Hearts, Navy Cross and Silver Star. Now even if you were to discount or flat out Disregard his Time in country... he certainly did more than Bush or Cheney... But thats not my point. He served. He went. He fought. He took fire. I don't understand how people can disrespect his basic service to the Country. You want to get into a dialogue about... "well. it was only a flesh wound, and he wounded himself, and he shot in a guy in the back.. and all that. Its disrespectful to him and all the people serving in Iraq. Lat month we saw a Marine shoot an unarmed , wounded Iraqi in the head as he lay bleeding. This board over flowed with support for him, because people understand that watching combat and beng in combat are two different things. And the Marine, rightfuly so, got the benefit of doubt that he felt his Life was in Jeopardy.

The thing that really bothers me.. I mean really shakes my faith in my country.. is that if that Marine runs for President in 25 years... People like Karl Rove and People like some people on this Board will Call him a Murderer for poltical Gain. Just like they did to John Kerry for shooting a guy in the back.

I saw a thread here not to long ago where 46ZilZal used the word idiot to describe the Troops in Iraq. Jesus you woulda though a Nuclear Bomb went off in here... People demanded to know his real name, where he lived, Called him a Coward, tracked him down on other boards.. People who never post in Off Topic were calling it the worst Post ever made...

I mean, it was a real doozy....I stayed away.. I just watched. But by my Math.. If you serve 16 Months in a combat zone, earn 5 distingiushed medals and then have your patriotism called into question.. Then someone in that equation is an idiot. I'll let you decide who is.

Who cares if a Soldier is knocking down doors in Fallujeah, or filling tanks with Gas in AL Basra.. According to many on this Board.. he's a Patriot, someone who deserves a certain amount of reverence. Except if you disagree with him Politically. Then you can desecrate his war record with impunity.

I don't want to get into the swift boat views... Even If I conceded that Kerry was a weak leader, wounded himself, over exagerated his wounds... Even if I agreed with all that. He signed up, he served, he went, he took fire. Thats enough for me. Not as a PUNCHED TICKET for the presidencey. But certainly he shoud get the same respect that people on this Board are so ready to give the Iraq war veterans.

I think many of the people that attacked 46zilzal are hypocrites. First of all... they were attacking his Nomenclature.... he used the wrong word.. But his point was clear... and I'm making the same point here.

Some poor kid serving in Iraq now will come back to people that will desecrate his service for poltical gain. We just witnessed that in this election cycle. And they did it to Max Cleland as well... and he left 3 limbs in Vietnam. So I'm not buying it was a singular incident against a Rogue veteran. They brutalized Max Cleland for supporting John Kerry. Two legs and an Arm buried in Vietnam somewhere and they questioned his Patriotism. Yet not a peep from people out here...?? But 46ZIL ZAL uses an inappriatte word and they are hunting down his home address to lynch him. I thought the whole thing was comical.

In My opinion... Everytime you question any Combat Veterans patriotism your insulting every kid serving Iraq right now.



Bottom line is....I'm sure every administration has their softball tossers. I just live with it, listen to all sides and angles and go from there. I still maintain that I never heard of this guy Guckert.....Damn sure heard of Helen Thomas, tho. Saw her almost daily, yet I don't know anybody that ever saw Guckert.....wonder why?

Again, this is why I have a hard time discussing issues out here. Your an intelligent guy... Where did you get the impression that this was about soft questions? Its difficult to have a discussion when it goes sideways. The issue as I see... is a Man with a Phony name, representing a no-name news orginization, with a Criminal past has been getting into the White house. I think it raises questions about what the hell is going on over there. I only used his questioning style to frame a point... It is not THE POINT... So its a waste of time to agree that people ask softball questions.

If another reporter you have never read or heard of, got into the white house on a phony name. worked for a non-descipt liberal WWW site, and was a Gay Prostitute, and asked the President questions in a confrotational manner from a Democrats posistion... would you still be as ambivalent? I doubt it.

Replace your word "reporter" for "fat, slovenly, drunken partisan politician who drowns young women and gets away with at best cowardice, at worst murder", then I'd say it happens on a daily basis. His name is Ted Kennedy.

I'm not on a Baseball team with Ted Kennedy... where I inherit all his indescretions when I take the field. I put your description into my sentence and it did'nt work. I'm a registered Independent anyway. I'm not a member of the Democratic Party. Plus... he is in a whole nutha branch of Govt. Wer'e talking executive branch... Security. Your talking about Legislators... LawMakers. Congress has nothng to do with who gets in the White House.

FWIW suff, I think it's funny also. This w/ never change, unfortunately.

yea its a Big Joke... the whole operation. I agree. I answer to an alarm clock and a pay stub. I'm a knucklehead...but I occasionally think to much about this bullshit. They all suck. As a politician, Kerry as well. He probably coulda beat Bush had he not been such a weak knee in the Mouth.

Thats all from me on this issue...

[ElKabong]

When I read stuff like this it just breaks my heart. Not for John Kerry.. But for the Troops in Iraq Today. This is my take on that. Kerry served on a Navy Frigate in the Gulf of Tonkin for one year prior to Captaining a swift Boat in the Mekong Delta. Gulf of Tonkin was considered part of the Combat Theatre. Vietnam was One Year Tours. He Could have just came home a Combat Veteran then.. But he Volunteered to go in Country. Was awarded 3 Purple Hearts, Navy Cross and Silver Star. Now even if you were to discount or flat out Disregard his Time in country... he certainly did more than Bush or Cheney... But thats not my point. He served. He went. He fought. He took fire. I don't understand how people can disrespect his basic service to the Country. You want to get into a dialogue about... "well. it was only a flesh wound, and he wounded himself, and he shot in a guy in the back.. and all that. Its disrespectful to him and all the people serving in Iraq. Lat month we saw a Marine shoot an unarmed , wounded Iraqi in the head as he lay bleeding. This board over flowed with support for him, because people understand that watching combat and beng in combat are two different things. And the Marine, rightfuly so, got the benefit of doubt that he felt his Life was in Jeopardy.




Kerry served as an electrical Officer on that Frigate, saw no action. When he volunteered for swiftboat duty the swifts weren't a brown water operation at that time. They were by and large a coastal unit(s). By the time his papers were processed and his orders given, it was a very dangerous mission b/c they were running brwon water missions in the thick of battle.

Example of what pisses a lot of people off.... His hollywood-esque "infomercial" shown on his dem nomination nite at the dem convention portrayed his boat as being the one and only swiftboat that stayed and fought. Naval records and eye witness accounts show the complete opposite. I linked the Wash Post diagram here on teh board several times last summer and fall.

Here's the point suff on that particular event on 3/13/69, and I will not allow you or anyone else to bend it to your liking....KERRY made himself out to be the superhero, obtained Rassmann as a wingman for his campaign. Their stories and accounts of that day WERE FALSE. Just like his tearful story of being in Christamas in cambodia and any number of fantasies he makes up to make him look good at the expense of the integrity others.

Every American appreciates Kerry's service. What we don't appreciate, in this particluar instance and God knows there's more not to like about him as a Leader, is that he is overly willing to throw other people that served with honor under the f'king bus if it served his purpose.

He did that in 1971, he continued thru 2004 and I am sure he'll try it again in 2008. It's what he does b/c it's all he's got.

As for Max Clelland, if you want to relive this, great! You go start another thread and I'll jump in. I'll dig thru the archives here and answer any thing you put up.

[Suff]

Here's the point suff on that particular event on 3/13/69, and I will not allow you or anyone else to bend it to your liking....KERRY made himself out to be the superhero, obtained Rassmann as a wingman for his campaign. Their stories and accounts of that day WERE FALSE. Just like his tearful story of being in Christamas in cambodia and any number of fantasies he makes up to make him look good at the expense of the integrity others.



Its obvious he misarticulated facts about his service. And he was kind of caught in a Bear Trap. The more he squirmed, the uglier the wound got.

Thats all I'll have to say. I'll give you the last word . Done.

We'll move onto another discussion another time.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[ElKabong]

Suff>> Where did you get the impression that this was about soft questions? Its difficult to have a discussion when it goes sideways. The issue as I see... is a Man with a Phony name, representing a no-name news orginization, with a Criminal past has been getting into the White house. I think it raises questions about what the hell is going on over there. I only used his questioning style to frame a point... It is not THE POINT... So its a waste of time to agree that people ask softball questions.


Suff,

Guckert was all about soft questions, imho...That's just my opinion. The administration had him there for the same reasons Slick had Helen Thomas ask the first question at most q&a sessions....It made his job easier, it made him look better. No doubt the WH staff ran Guckert thru security checks, they didn't think he was a threat. If he had become a hard ass and asked the prez tough questions instead of softballs would they have booted him for his weirdness? Probably so...That's just my guess.

I really wouldn't know, tho. I never saw Guckert, never read his articles. Only thing I do know for sure is, that every administration is going to have friendly media in attendance. There are enuff sharks out there to counteract them. But, for the security question you raised (using an alias, etc) no doubt they didn't see him as any kind of threat....I'm betting they wished they'd locked him out from the get go now, but the aclu and gay rights group woulda had a feast on that one. "Bush admin descriminates against homos". Sometimes you can't win.

[ElKabong]

We'll move onto another discussion another time.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Same to you. Hit some winners.

[boxcar]

Suff, I wasn't going to hop into this thread, but I gotta tell ya I have a very rough time following your logic on a particular issue. I personally thought that what 46er did by calling our troops "idiots" was a despicable, mean-spirited, ungrateful act. Bear with me now for a moment, and I'll show you why:

Suff wrote:

Iraqi in the head as he lay bleeding. This board over flowed with support for him, because people understand that watching combat and beng in combat are two different things. And the Marine, rightfuly so, got the benefit of doubt that he felt his Life was in Jeopardy.

The thing that really bothers me.. I mean really shakes my faith in my country.. is that if that Marine runs for President in 25 years... People like Karl Rove and People like some people on this Board will Call him a Murderer for poltical Gain. Just like they did to John Kerry for shooting a guy in the back.

So, then is the Marine, who is running for president an "idiot". And if he is one, why? (I mean...after all, shouldn't he be lumped in with all ther other Marines who have served in Iraq? )

I saw a thread here not to long ago where 46ZilZal used the word idiot to describe the Troops in Iraq. Jesus you woulda though a Nuclear Bomb went off in here... People demanded to know his real name, where he lived, Called him a Coward, tracked him down on other boards.. People who never post in Off Topic were calling it the worst Post ever made...

I mean, it was a real doozy....I stayed away.. I just watched. But by my Math.. If you serve 16 Months in a combat zone, earn 5 distingiushed medals and then have your patriotism called into question.. Then someone in that equation is an idiot. I'll let you decide who is.

Who cares if a Soldier is knocking down doors in Fallujeah, or filling tanks with Gas in AL Basra.. According to many on this Board.. he's a Patriot, someone who deserves a certain amount of reverence. Except if you disagree with him Politically. Then you can desecrate his war record with impunity.

I don't want to get into the swift boat views... Even If I conceded that Kerry was a weak leader, wounded himself, over exagerated his wounds... Even if I agreed with all that. He signed up, he served, he went, he took fire. Thats enough for me. Not as a PUNCHED TICKET for the presidencey. But certainly he shoud get the same respect that people on this Board are so ready to give the Iraq war veterans.

I think many of the people that attacked 46zilzal are hypocrites. First of all... they were attacking his Nomenclature.... he used the wrong word.. But his point was clear... and I'm making the same point here.

Some poor kid serving in Iraq now will come back to people that will desecrate his service for poltical gain. We just witnessed that in this election cycle. And they did it to Max Cleland as well... and he left 3 limbs in Vietnam. So I'm not buying it was a singular incident against a Rogue veteran. They brutalized Max Cleland for supporting John Kerry. Two legs and an Arm buried in Vietnam somewhere and they questioned his Patriotism. Yet not a peep from people out here...?? But 46ZIL ZAL uses an inappriatte word and they are hunting down his home address to lynch him. I thought the whole thing was comical.

You say that 46er' s "point was clear"? What point exactly was that? This is what I need to know.

Then you concede that he used the wrong word, but then those of us who immediately recognized that the use of such a term was entirely inappropriate and unjustified, we're the hypocrites!?

Just where is the parallel that you're attempting to draw between one unthinking, ignorant, insensitive person broad-brushing the entire military for doing its duty in Iraq, and the many people who perceived that one man
(Kerry, for example) was little more than than a power-hungry, overyly-ambitious, self-centered, self-absorbed political opportunist, who appeared to have used his military assignment to advance his own personal agenda?

In the case of Kerry, there was more than ample reason to believe that the criticisms he received were indeed approprate and justified, most especially since he himself opened the door to such criticism at the Convention by playing his "military hero" card. True heroes never have to brag about their heroism, or engage in any kind of self-praise, or self-promotion. People who understand the "stuff" from what true heroes are made clearly understand this, which is precisely why his little display of self-aggrandizement at the Convention was so irksome to more than a few of his fellow-swiftvets (not to mention to those of us on the sidelines merely witnessing the shameless show).

Moreove, a true hero, a true patriot, who loved his country, would never put the welfare or even lives of his fellow-servicemen in jeopordy, who were still serving in Vietnam and imprisoned in POW camps, by speaking out against the U.S. war effort, thereby effectively rendering aid and comfort to the enemy.

Conversely, just specifiically what have all the troops in Iraq done to the likes of a 46er and his ilk to deserve being called "idiots" -- or any other derragoatory name, for that matter? It's one thing, perhaps, to call someone a derragatory name deservedly or justifiably, but quite another when it is done for no reason, save for the opportunity to cast an underseverd, gratuitious insult.

For these reasons, I fail to understand why us Kerry critics should be labeled hypocrites -- unless you can show how the two situations are analgous -- where precisely the parallels are between the two.

Boxcar

[ElKabong]

Boxcar,

I was sorta willing to let Suffs comments go, on Kerry being whacked on being on par w/ that US soldier in Iraq who did the right thing and shot the Iraqi a few weeks back. Personally I thought Suff was wayyy off in his attempt at a correlation between the two. The US soldier killed an enemy combatant who was moving and c/h had an explosive device on him....Kerry called out his (ex) fellow soldiers as murderers, rapists and pillagers.

To this day, no one that served under Kery has admitted to these atrocities Kerry said he witnessed....so who's they lying sack?

I fail to see the similarity of Kerry and that Marine..

In Kerry';s case, he slammed US soldiers that fought in Vietnam, as a whole. He made shit up as he went along. That is clearly documented in his days with the Wintersoldier movement. Man, I can go on for pages about how Kerry stabbed his fellow Vets in the back for selfish purposes, but I'd just be repeating what we hashed out all last fall.

Kerry-- Would throw his fmr sailors, airmen and soldiers under the f'king bus in a heartbeat if it meant any advancement of his career. He pressured fmr GI's to make shit up on road trips for his VVAW group. He lied about some of his experiences in Vietnam to his political benefit......'aw hell, it was at the expense of my fellow Vets, but who cares about them? F*ck em, it's all about me.'

The Marine--shot an enemy combatant that might have been wired to kill any unit that walked up.....The killing was justified in combat.

No way can successfully anyone compare Kerry to that Marine in terms of honor..... No way. My guess is that that Marine will be like 99.99% of those that served in combat for our nation and won't stab his former soldiers in the back anytime in the future....Till anything like that ever does happen, there is no correlation or comaprison of the two.

Take a look at the dust jacket of this book. Take a look at the author's name.....Yeah right, Kerry was just misunderstood warrior. Give me a f-cking break.

[Suff]

Boxcar,

I was sorta willing to let Suffs comments go, on Kerry being whacked on being on par w/ that US soldier in Iraq who did the right thing and shot the Iraqi a few weeks back. Personally I thought Suff was wayyy off in his attempt at a correlation between the two. The US soldier killed an enemy combatant who was moving and c/h had an explosive device on him....Kerry called out his (ex) fellow soldiers as murderers, rapists and pillagers.

Geez you guys can't even be happy with the last word. Your incessant need to pound away is disheartening. Its a very sinple comparison I made.

John Kerry got off his swift boat to assist a wounded soldier. He was under fire. He returned fire and Killed an enemy combatant. War hero? You followed the election? What did they say about the incident ? They said..

1. He shot man a man in the back (read coward)
2. He shot an Unarmed man. (read coward)
3 He shot a Teenager (read baby killer)

Now the Marine. Heres what is said.

1. He shot an enemy combatant who was moving.
2. He shot someone who "could have" had an explosive device.
3. He feared for his Life and safety

It is my Contention that should the Marine we speak of were to Run for office on the opposite end of your political spectrum you will then say.

1. He shot an unarmed, mortally wounded Muulah in a Mosque.
2. He shot a Old Man.
3. He shot a man lying on the ground who was bleeding to death.


Your support of Combat veterans stops when they oppose you poltically. To me its cleary evidenced by the way John Kerrys Killing was characterized by his opponents. He no longer was a Hero. He was shooting unarmed, teenagers in the back.
When ZilZal said idiot he really meant Naive. Because the Marine really thinks that you think he's a war hero... But what that Marine does'nt know is that You will desecrate his contributions and/or minimize his contributions... as sson as he opposes you poltically. Just like you've done to Kerrys. Like when I point out Kerry Served in a Combat theater for one year.... Elkabong minimizes that by saying , Well, he was "only" an electrical officer. The man served in a Combat theater, Period. What happens when an Iarq Veteran comes home and "all" he did was unload trucks in Al nazereah? I'll tell you what... If he is with you potically then he's a hero... but if he isn't? He was "Only" a Loading dock worker.



To this day, no one that served under Kery has admitted to these atrocities Kerry said he witnessed....so who's they lying sack?
.

Your not being honest. You've read "The Fog Of War" by Robert Mcnamara? He was the Secy of Defense during the vietnam build up. He made alot of candid confessions when he was 85 years old. Here is a quote from his book..

LeMay said, “If we’d lost the war, we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals.” And I think he’s right. He, and I’d say I, were behaving as war criminals . . . But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?

Listen, I gotta get a Pick 6 ticket put together..and I Have a Pick 4 contest to win.,.. I have no more time for this disussion.. I said what I had to say... I listened to what Elkbanng had to say.. and we ended it. Thats called a discussion. Thats the way to end things out here. Not incessantly hammering home your views. You got your points. I have mine. Nice talking to you. Good Bye.

I Will leave you with one more quote from Mcnamara..

We are the strongest nation in the world today. I do not believe that we should ever apply that economic, political, and military power unilaterally. If we had followed that rule in Vietnam, we wouldn’t have been there. None of our allies supported us. Not Japan, not Germany, not Britain or France. If we can’t persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we’d better reexamine our reasoning.

[lsbets]

On Kerry - he lost, the elections over. If people still like him and support him, who cares? Let them. I completely disagree with Suff's assesment, but it does not matter one bit, and I hate to say this, because it is pointed at people I tend to agree with - the election is over, your guy won, fight for the issues now, Kerry is irrelevant.

In terms of 46Sec, he did not mean naive when he said idiot. I quoted from other posts where he called people in the military clowns, said we were overhyped on testasterone, and said we had a simplified 4X4 mentality, insinuating that we cannot comprehend the complexities of the world. I stand by every word I have said about that man - he is despicable. There is no need to make any excuses for him, he is a pitiful excuse for a person. I will refight that battle every day. There is no defense for him.

[boxcar]

Suff wrote:

Geez you guys can't even be happy with the last word. Your incessant need to pound away is disheartening. Its a very sinple comparison I made.

Suff, you haven't figured out a way to correlate 46er's despicable remarks about the military troops in Iraq with how many people felt about the self-promoting "war hero" during the election campaign? Notwithstanding, Kerry shooting the enemy combatant in the back, his detractors had many other reasons, based on all the evidence, for criticizing this one man's acquisition of war medals. But what did all the troops in Iraq do to 46er to deserve his derragatory remarks? If they did nothing, then how are we Kerry detractors, who are entirely justified in our crticism of Kerry, hypocrites for coming down hard on 46er's unjustified remarks?

Furthermore, your argument about the connection between poltical ideology and service people is superficial at best, or artifical at worst. For example, I'm not a fan of John McCain by any stretch...but I have never knocked his military service because, to the best of my knowledge, he served honorably in the truest sense of this term. He never pounded his own chest about what a war hero he was. And after he served, I don't recall him becoming a turncoat and putting fellow service people's welfare or lives at risk, as Kerry did. In short, there's nothing there to criticize, which all stands in sharp contrast to Kerry's situtation. The core difference between a McCain and a Kerry is readily apparent. Conservatives have a simple name for it: We call it character.

Finally, since when did you become a mind reader to tell us what 46er really meant to say? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[ElKabong]

John Kerry got off his swift boat to assist a wounded soldier. He was under fire. He returned fire and Killed an enemy combatant. War hero? You followed the election? What did they say about the incident ? They said..

Suff, you understand that the one and only swiftvet on record as saying Kerry's killing of that kid was "possibly" an act of cowardice, is a registered Democrat named John O'neill that (1) doesn't support GWB, never has, and (2) contributed to the Edwards campaign. You understand this , right? Did you leave that fact out conveniently, or did you just insert what you wanted and left anything that didn't fit YOUR political leaning???

No other swiftvet made the comments O'neill did. Thus over 250 of them think Kerry did the right thing then, and I'm in that camp as well.

Your explanation of why Kerry got off the boat that day is incorrect. Doug Reese, a dedicated Kerry supporter who also was there that day you spoke of (when Kerry put in for his SS) posted of this event on the swiftvets site. He clearly defended Kerry's action to shoot the kid, as did about everyone else. His version of that day's event seems believable to me. It isn't damning of Kerry of what he did at all.

O'neill, otoh, made other points about Kerry that day that you aren't touching on, nor does any of his supporters. You Kerry guys never seem to grasp that. I won't go into further detail unless you again drag it up. If you want to rehash it, fine, I'm not going anywhere.

as for LeMay's attributed comment, all I have to say is "Pick a side and stick with it." War isn't a college recruiting session where you look at pros and cons of a particular side. It's win or lose. Nothing else matters.

[Suff]

[On Kerry - he lost, the elections over. If people still like him and support him, who cares? Let them. I completely disagree with Suff's assesment, but it does not matter one bit, and I hate to say this, because it is pointed at people I tend to agree with - the election is over, your guy won, fight for the issues now, Kerry is irrelevant.

Hi Jerry.

Good to see you out here. I'm glad your Hanging in there. yea this thread sorta took a left turn and we got into a few things. I apologize. For whats it worth... I didn't vote for Kerry. I wrote in Hillary Clinton for president and I wrote myself in for Vice President. I'm not rehashing the election. I was just making a point about the "selective" support veterans get in Politics.



In terms of 46Sec, he did not mean naive when he said idiot. I quoted from other posts where he called people in the military clowns, said we were overhyped on testasterone, and said we had a simplified 4X4 mentality, insinuating that we cannot comprehend the complexities of the world. I stand by every word I have said about that man - he is despicable. There is no need to make any excuses for him, he is a pitiful excuse for a person. I will refight that battle every day. There is no defense for him.

Jerry You don't think 46zilzal is the only guy in america that thinks the military is a bunch of yahoo's do you? Of course not. Its a stereotype that many in the military welcome.. some perpetuate it. And its anyones choice to support the Military. Its a free country. Your an Officer in the Military... You have a different view.

As far as that marine.. I support him 100%. I served. When my base went on full alerts I sat in a Fox hole with an M-16....and I woulda shot a Bunny rabbit if it moved. And I was in during peace time! The fact he said "well he's dead now"... shows he is a little desensitized to death.. but thats a Consequence of Combat. If he's ok with it. I'm ok with it. If he's having trouble with it and wants or needs some counseling or assistance readjusting to society when he gets home.. he should get it. Case closed.

You may not be able to get all the news you want... but regarding Bush's recent trip to Europe... I'm listening to his speechs and a constant theme he is using when addressing Tyranny and even more so with Russian President Vladimir Putin is "Vital Opposition".... That term means that a Democratic society must have aggaravating interests. It is requirment for our democracy that both you and ZIlZal46 be present and accounted for. You can't stifle dissent in a free society. You have to have it. Your fighting for his right to agitate you.

Many americans are concerned about infringements on our rights in the name of protection. James Madison, The father of our constution said..

It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the
provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
James Madison

it is a "Viable Opposition" to have concerns about what our executive branch is doing with our rights with respect to teh war on Terror.

As far as being Critical of our Military during Wartime... As best as I can make out... This struggle we are in is generational. We'll be addressing the freedom constraining effects of fundemental Islam for years to come. If anyone is suggesting that we not be critical or at least Examine what we are doing Militarily for the next 20+ years... thats unacceptable.


The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to an uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government.
James Madison
(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President


My Ole English is a litte rough... But I Interpret that to mean that the role of Government.. and by that I mean You Jerry... as a an agent of our Govt... Your first object is to protect the Right of 46Zizal to disagree with you and be allowed to form his own opinions and express them. To be a "Vital opposition"...

If you ask U. S. of Americans if they support thier troops at war... Your up around 85%. In some ways your fighting for that other 15% to exist. It must exist in a Democracy. In a free society. I mean if BoXcar and Elkabong keeled over tommorrow... we could fill thier seats on the bus in a second.... :p . You get my point.. No need to belabor it.

I watched the frontline special this week.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/company/

A company of Soldiers. Difficult. When Specialist Babbit was KIA it was tough to watch. I welled up a little. Really Humbling to watch. But also, I was very proud of the character of our men. The best of what we have is serving in the Armed Forces.

Take care of yourself Jerry... You and your men are in my thoughts.

[ElKabong]

His name isn't Jerry. It's Jeff.

[Suff]

His name isn't Jerry. It's Jeff.


Jeff. Ok.. sorry. I knew it was J something.

[lsbets]

Here's the thing Suff - I have no desire to stifle dissent. But, I do have the right to call a moron a moron. That is not stifling dissent, that is excercising my free speech. Too many people mistake condemning the words of fools as an attempt to stifle free speech, there is a huge difference.

And thanks ElKabong, I was going to ask who Jerry was. I'm coming up on my one year anniversary here, and will be staying a little bit longer than that, but my time is winding down. I expect to be back in Texas in time to get my taxes done.

[ElKabong]

When you get back, give me a holler. I'll buy you a beer (or beverage of your choice) in the paddock at LS or at the simo at your convenience. Many Thanks for all you do over there. Appreciated more than you and anyone there will ever know.

Stay safe.

[lsbets]

Elk, sounds like a plan to me. If you have Keith Moore's e-mail address, can you shoot me a PM, I need to touch base with him before I get home. I plan on doing my best imitation of an alcoholic degenerate gambler for about a month when I get home. I told my wife she should expect a permanent imprint of my rear on our sofa. She told me I have over a year's worth of diapers to make up for. I like my plan better. At least she loves going to the track.

[ElKabong]

I'll call LS Monday and get Keith's e-addy & PM it to you asap.

[Suff]

Here's the thing Suff - I have no desire to stifle dissent. But, I do have the right to call a moron a moron. That is not stifling dissent, that is excercising my free speech. Too many people mistake condemning the words of fools as an attempt to stifle free speech, there is a huge difference.

.


In a country of 300 Million people, roughly 270 Million share your opinion.

Who's speech do you think needs more protection?

[Suff]

John Kerry got off his swift boat to assist a wounded soldier. He was under fire. He returned fire and Killed an enemy combatant. War hero? You followed the election? What did they say about the incident ? They said..

Suff, you understand that the one and only swiftvet on record as saying Kerry's killing of that kid was "possibly" an act of cowardice, is a registered Democrat named John O'neill that (1) doesn't support GWB, never has, and (2) contributed to the Edwards campaign. You understand this , right? Did you leave that fact out conveniently, or did you just insert what you wanted and left anything that didn't fit YOUR political leaning???

.

I don't conveniently leave facts out. Because I'm not in a competition with you to be right. To me , things like this are just discussions. Not competitions to be right, or sway you, or win a prize. If I omit relevant facts its probably because I am not aware of them, or don't find them relevant, or simply that I just can't type everything. But I try and be honest in my views of current events. I don't think I would be deceptive by ommision simply to prove my point , attempt to prove you wrong. As a matter of fact.. You being right, or me being right has little to do with my willingness to discuss things with people here. I just discuss things here, because I find it an interesting social outlet for current events. Nothing more.

[Tom]

Here's the thing Suff - I have no desire to stifle dissent. But, I do have the right to call a moron a moron. That is not stifling dissent, that is excercising my free speech. Too many people mistake condemning the words of fools as an attempt to stifle free speech, there is a huge difference.

And thanks ElKabong, I was going to ask who Jerry was. I'm coming up on my one year anniversary here, and will be staying a little bit longer than that, but my time is winding down. I expect to be back in Texas in time to get my taxes done.

My GOD, man! Haven't you been through enough already? Now you have to deal wtih the IRS?!?! YIKES!
Take care, man, THOSE guys are baaad news! :lol: