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DerbyTrail
02-20-2005, 10:54 AM
Up now on Derby Trail: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/derbytrail

On Feb. 18 Gary West, the excellent race writer for the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, wrote an edifying analysis of the Derby Trail scene. The veteran reporter opined that the early results of this year's Derby preps need to be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt" as historically, the winners of these events rarely have an impact on the Triple Crown.

West correctly explained that the Second of June's, Trust N Luck's, Repent's and Buddha's, horses that made splashes the last few years in January and February, are never around in March and April, or most importantly, the first Saturday in May. He went on to say that Monarchos, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Charismatic and Real Quiet, all were soundly beaten at this time of year in the sophomore campaigns before going on to Derby glory.

All true. But there seems to be a bigger problem facing this crop of three year olds that transcends the reality that early season winners are typically left behind when the real running starts in the Gr. I preps in late March and April. The fact is that this group of sophomores is unusually slow. Make that shockingly slow.

Joe Cardello, the Daily Racing Form's Beyer Speed Figure analyst, offers a perspective of contenders' figs every year in the Derby edition of the paper. Last year, he projected the Derby's top 6 or 7 finishers based on the number of triple digit Beyers each of the entrants had run in their careers. Utilizing the Beyers as a measure of comparison, we looked at the past performances of every Triple Crown nominee from 2003-05.

By this time in 2003, of the 454 Triple Crown nominees, 30 had already run a Beyer of 100 or more (6.6%). Eventual Derby winner Funny Cide had logged a 103 at 2; third place finisher Peace Rules a 102 and 4th place runner Atswhatimtalknbout a 105. Here's a list of the 2003 Derby runners that had posted triple digit numbers before March 1, 2003:

Derby finish-Horse-BSF
1. Funny Cide 103
3. Peace Rules 102
4. Atswhatimtalknbout 105
5. Eye of the Tiger 102
6. Buddy Gil 106
10. Domestic Dispute 103
11. Scrimshaw 104

In addition to these, here are other 'Class of '03' horses that didn't make the Derby but had earned consideration at two or went on to good things later in their careers:

Badge of Silver 108, 108
Kafwain 102, 115
Trust N Luck 106, 110
Omega Code 103
Philadelphia Jim 101
Zavata 101, 102
Why Why Why 102
Vindication 102
Toccet 101, 102
Southern Image 102
Singletary 100
Sky Mesa 103
Composure (f) 101

Last year, as Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome (MRLS) began to show its effects on crops claiming at least 500 foals, 434 colts and fillies were Triple Crown nominated and 19 had run a 100+ Beyer by March 1, 2004 (4.3%). The Derby trifecta of Smarty Jones (105), Lion Heart (103) and Imperialism (101) led the triple digit club by the time February ended. The 2004 Derby runners that earned 100+ Beyers by March 1, 2004:

Derby finish-Horse-BSF
1. Smarty Jones 105
2. Lion Heart 103
3. Imperialism 101
5. The Cliff's Edge 101
7. Read the Footnotes 105, 113
12. Master David 100

These other '04 sophomores were 100+ runners:

Cuvee 101, 103
Value Plus 108
Silver Wagon 106
Second of June 113, 111
Redskin Warrior 105
Rock Hard Ten 101
St. Averill 102
Chapel Royal 100
Madcap Escapade (f) 108

Which brings us to 2005. This is the crop most severely affected by MRLS having taken an estimated 1,200 foals in Spring 2002, and reducing the Triple Crown nominations to 358, its lowest total in 20 years. Of these horses, a scant 10 have recorded a BSF of 100 or more through February 19, 2005 (2.8%). While the tragedy in the Bluegrass three years ago can account for denying the crop a certain number of potentially outstanding progeny, the 2.8% represents a decrease of more than 100% in 100+ Beyer-earning runners in just two years.

The 10 of the Class of '05 (Note that Going Wild has the distinction of being the first in the crop to 100+ Beyer in a route and a sprint):

Afleet Alex 102 (6f Sanford)
Declan's Moon 107 (7f DMR Futurity)
Diligent Prospect 102 (5f MSW)
Roman Ruler 106 (7f DR Futurity), 103 (6.5f Best Pal)
Going Wild 104 (6f MSW), 100 (9f Sham)
High Fly 100 (8f Aventura)
Proud Accolade 100 (8.5f Champagne)
Galloping Grocer 102 (9f Remsen)
Rockport Harbor 102 (9f Remsen)
Sweet Catomine 102 (8.5f BC JF)

The facts from 2003 and 2004 project that a third of these horses will not only make the Derby field, but finish at the top of the chart. In fact, two years in a row, horses that had achieved a 100+ Beyer not only made the field and finished at the top of the chart, but were 4 of the first 5 finishers and among 5 of the top 7!

Considering that Afleet Alex, Declan's Moon and Rockport Harbor all will be making just two starts before the Derby, it seems, barring injury, they are near certainties to make the field the first Saturday in May. Diligent Prospect is hurt, and the start of Roman Ruler's campaign continues to be delayed. Proud Accolade remains highly questionable as a hopeful due to distance limitations, and Sweet Catomine's Derby plans will not become clear until at least the Santa Anita Oaks.

That leaves us with the three 2-prep candidates as well Going Wild, High Fly and Galloping Grocer. Based on what we have seen the last two years, it would appear that you can look to this group of six as the most serious candidates for a blanket of roses on May 7. Of these six, three (Rockport Harbor/Servis, Going Wild/Lukas, High Fly/Zito) may have a decided edge as colts trained by conditioners that have already won a Derby.

Given the reshuffled scheduling of several of the prep season's series of races, it's certainly possible that a speedy candidate emerges suddenly in the next two months as West suggests. But the trend of the last several years points more toward runners that have already demonstrated the ability to run fast by now. It happens that this group as a whole isn't running nearly as fast as three year olds of only one year ago. It could be that when it comes to picking this year's Derby winner, it will only make it that much easier to narrow the possibilities.

OTM Al
02-20-2005, 07:52 PM
Nice article. Am in absolute agreement, though we shouldn't discount a handful of others that have popped triple figs but have not shown themselves yet on the trail. March will be the proving ground for that lot as am pretty much sold on the qualifcations at least of the 6 you mention and discount the others for the exact reasons you present.

JPinMaryland
02-20-2005, 10:20 PM
YOu know, I'd really like to believe that there is an empirical backing for Beyer figs. (i.e. results that can be reproducible rather than based on subjective determination).

Okay assuming that BSF do have empirical basis...what sort of final time for KY derby are we looking at this year based upon the dearth of 100+ BSF? A 2:03? A 2:04?

C'mon then. If this all makes so much sense what will the final derby time be (assume fast track).

toetoe
02-21-2005, 12:13 AM
Why is 100 the magic #? If 100 is not enough to win the KD what is its significance?

Valuist
02-21-2005, 12:15 AM
I think the Beyer numbers earned at distances less than 1 mile are irrelevant as to whether a horse can be a Triple Crown contender.

DerbyTrail
02-21-2005, 07:16 AM
Why is 100 the magic #? If 100 is not enough to win the KD what is its significance?

T.T.
The 100 just serves as a benchmark leading up to May.. Since the Derby winner will run a Beyer of 108-112, it is important that they already have run at least a 100 once or twice because it is unlikely that they jump from the high 90's to 110 (-ish) in the most stressful race of their young careers. Only Lil E. Tee, in recent memory, had not run a triple digit fig before winning the Derby.

DerbyTrail
02-21-2005, 07:22 AM
I think the Beyer numbers earned at distances less than 1 mile are irrelevant as to whether a horse can be a Triple Crown contender.

Val..

Understood, but it is important in at least identifying those that can go fast. Speed is speed. The deciding factor will be the individual horse's ability to carry that speed over a distance, but cracking 100, or hitting a negative # on the sheets, even in a sprint, demonstrates the ability to run "fast enough"... Since the majority of these horses have only run 3-6 times, it is typical that their 100+ runs came in races under a mile. But Funny Cide earned his 102 in a 2 year old sprint (The Bongard?) and didn't get another 100+ until the Wood... I believe War Emblem did that too.. A 100+ in a sprint at 2 and then the next came in the IL Derby...

DerbyTrail
02-21-2005, 07:23 AM
YOu know, I'd really like to believe that there is an empirical backing for Beyer figs. (i.e. results that can be reproducible rather than based on subjective determination).

Okay assuming that BSF do have empirical basis...what sort of final time for KY derby are we looking at this year based upon the dearth of 100+ BSF? A 2:03? A 2:04?

C'mon then. If this all makes so much sense what will the final derby time be (assume fast track).

JP..

I've got to sit down with some charts to get the info, but I'll answer this.. Give me part of the day..

DerbyTrail
02-21-2005, 08:02 AM
Couple of corrections.. It was Sea Hero, not Lil E. Tee, who is the last Derby winner to post his first career 100+ Beyer in the race...

It was Silver Charm, not War Emblem, who also signaled his speed with a 100+ sprint Beyer before stretching out...

cj
02-21-2005, 08:35 AM
Okay assuming that BSF do have empirical basis...what sort of final time for KY derby are we looking at this year based upon the dearth of 100+ BSF? A 2:03? A 2:04?

C'mon then. If this all makes so much sense what will the final derby time be (assume fast track).

There is no way to project raw running times in advance accurately. How will the track be maintained? Will it be like the day Monarchos won in 1:59 and change, or will it be like last year's Smarty Jones' romp in the slop.

Ask me about two races before the Derby is run, and I'll come damn close. I've made some decent money a couple times betting the prop on final time after they run the first few races. Some books don't let you see this info though, they close the prop bet before any races are run.

depalma13
02-21-2005, 09:13 AM
Considering that Afleet Alex, Declan's Moon and Rockport Harbor all will be making just two starts before the Derby, it seems, barring injury, they are near certainties to make the field the first Saturday in May.

I think there is a flaw in looking only at the 100+ Beyers and predicting they will be in the derby field. The fact is, those horse will be in the derby field because they already have enough graded earnings to make the starting gate. That is the reason they will only have two preps. Barring Injury, they can't be denied a spot in the 20 horse field. It takes about $180,000 in graded money to guarantee a spot in the Derby field. The three you mentioned all have achieved that number.

I think Mr. West needs a history lesson.

West correctly explained that the Second of June's, Trust N Luck's, Repent's and Buddha's, horses that made splashes the last few years in January and February, are never around in March and April

Buddha won the Wood Memorial and came up lame the day before the Derby. Second of June and Repent both had serious injuries. He may be trying to explian that the horses peaked to early, but by the evidence presented, no one can logically lead to that conclusion. The injuries determined their missing the Kentucky Derby, not their early season Beyers.

He went on to say that Monarchos, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Charismatic and Real Quiet, all were soundly beaten at this time of year in the sophomore campaigns before going on to Derby glory.

This to me seems like taking the results of the race to prove the point, when there were far more factors to the results then the outcome of the race. Fisrt of all, Monarchos wasn't soundly beaten, in fact he was demolishing his competition at this time of year. Charasmatic lost by a nose in a claimer, but was interfered with by the winner and the winner was DQ'd, he was elevated to the win. He came back a week later to finish second in an allowance (while most horses today wait a month between starts, he was back in 7 days). Funny Cide although beaten, it was hardly soundly. He ran the toughest race of all in the Holy Bull after smashing the gate at the break, he was hung wide all the way around the track. Real Quiet was soundly beaten because he ran on a sloppy track in the Golden Gate Derby, the only sloppy track he ever ran on in his career. Smarty Jones, Silver Charm, Fu Peg, Thunder Gulch etc. were all defeating their competition at this time of the year.

Only War Emblem could be classified as a badly beaten horse without an excuse, but we did find out later that he was pure need the lead horse, who quit if he wasn't up front. When looking back it can logically explain away his poor effort in the Risen Star. Of course at the time we couldn't have known that, so he would be the only one that qualifies for what Mr. West is proposing.

Here's something I noticed about Beyers the last two years. The superfecta has been found by using only horses who have had at least 2 100 beyer figures prior to the Derby start.

2004
Smarty Jones 3
Lion Heart 3
Imperialism 3
Limehouse 2
The Cliff's Edge 2
Read the Footnotes 2
Minister Eric 2
No other horses qualified

2003
Funny Cide 2
Empire Maker 2
Peace Rules 2
Atswhatimtalknbout 2
Buddy Gil 3
No other horses qualified

Don't have the pp's for the previous two years, but this is what I've found.

2002
Came Home 4
Medaglia D'Oro 3
Harlan's Holiday 3
Perfect Drift 1
War Emblem 1

2001
Monarchos 3
Congaree 3
Point Given 3
Balto Star 2

Storm Cadet
02-21-2005, 09:34 AM
Since the majority of these horses have only run 3-6 times, it is typical that their 100+ runs came in races under a mile. But Funny Cide earned his 102 in a 2 year old sprint (The Bongard?) and didn't get another 100+ until the Wood..


My avatar and handle STORM CADET was the post time favorite who battled Funny Cide that day in the Bongard in his last race at Belmont as a 2YO before he died in a training accident!
:(

Bobby
02-21-2005, 09:38 AM
Rockport harbor has a bruised foot. He might miss the Rebel

JPinMaryland
02-21-2005, 01:49 PM
[quote] There is no way to project raw running times in advance accurately. How will the track be maintained? Will it be like the day Monarchos won in 1:59 and change, or will it be like last year's Smarty Jones' romp in the slop. [quote/]

Well doesnt this cut against the argument? If you cant tell what running time will be until post time, then what is the pt. of citing the Beyer speed figs this spring?

I thougt the whole pt. was with low beyer figs this year, the race will be run slower. Now you tell me it all depends on the track. Well...?

I said to assume the track was in fast condition. why cant you project a final time based on that? I realize that even a "fast" track can vary in how it plays but then that why cant you take that into account. Say "with this years low BSFs we expect a 2:03-2:04 range on a typical "fast" CD track?"

if this BSF was an empirical science, why cant you make a prediction like that? I dont get it. You all rely on this BSF stuff (not everyone) but then you tell me the final time depends.

Hey maybe the low BSFs this spring are on account of the track maintenance? Since apparently it all depends on track maintenance why am I looking at BSF this spring?

Again I am lost...

JPinMaryland
02-21-2005, 01:54 PM
Here's quote from the original:

It could be that when it comes to picking this year's Derby winner, it will only make it that much easier to narrow the possibilities.

tell me how that follows. If everyone in the derby is running 85 BSF, then how do you narrow the possibilities? Again it seems like an article written to be provocative but in the end it simply wimps out.

If the author's premise were to be logically followed up, it should follow that these low BSF horses this year should run a slow derby time (adjusted for track condition as always)

In fact, if memory serves, the BSF is supposed to adjust for track condition. Okay so if that is true, then based on this season's prep races you should be able to tell me the derby Beyer Speed since that takes into account the track condition. Yes?

cj
02-21-2005, 01:56 PM
I thougt the whole pt. was with low beyer figs this year, the race will be run slower. Now you tell me it all depends on the track. Well...?

I said to assume the track was in fast condition. why cant you project a final time based on that? I realize that even a "fast" track can vary in how it plays but then that why cant you take that into account. Say "with this years low BSFs we expect a 2:03-2:04 range on a typical "fast" CD track?"



JP,

A MAJOR part of Beyer speed figures is the calculation of the track variant. A track can be fast, and still have a huge swing in variant. Just last year, I had fast tracks at CD with variants ranging from 10 slow (about 6 lengths slow at 1 1/4 miles) to 25 fast (15 lengths fast at 1 1/4 miles), for a 21 length range under the same "fast" designation. And this is without factoring in how fast they run early, which can also have a dramatic effect on final time, especially if there aren't any quality closers in a race.

cj
02-21-2005, 02:03 PM
In fact, if memory serves, the BSF is supposed to adjust for track condition. Okay so if that is true, then based on this season's prep races you should be able to tell me the derby Beyer Speed since that takes into account the track condition. Yes?

Absolutely, that is why I can usually come pretty close after watching a couple races. I can see the first race is run by a horse that usually runs 80, and he runs 88 on the Beyer speed chart. The 2nd race is won by a horse I project to run around 90, and I see he gets 102 on the Beyer chart. I can see the track was +8 and +12, so I can guess around a +10 fast track. Then, looking at the Derby, lets say it looks like it will take around 108 to win as it did last year. I just look at the Speed chart for 1 1/4 miles at CD, and find out what time is equal to 118. Then, look at the over/under offered as a prop bet, and its usually quite easy to guess on which side the race time will fall. Make sense?

JPinMaryland
02-21-2005, 05:08 PM
WEll okay so far. Let's say this year so far we have what a couple of horses have run 100s? Let's say Proud Accolade does not go the derby route. Lets say further that the rest of the field is running low 90s in the rest of the preps.

Unlikely, but lets assume this years crop is thin and that's all we have one or two horses run about 100 and the rest are low 90s. So you'd say a low 90 Beyer SPeed fig. could win the derby?

That would be the logical conclusion if we follow the logic and the assumptions hold..

DerbyTrail
02-21-2005, 10:52 PM
WEll okay so far. Let's say this year so far we have what a couple of horses have run 100s? Let's say Proud Accolade does not go the derby route. Lets say further that the rest of the field is running low 90s in the rest of the preps.

Unlikely, but lets assume this years crop is thin and that's all we have one or two horses run about 100 and the rest are low 90s. So you'd say a low 90 Beyer SPeed fig. could win the derby?

That would be the logical conclusion if we follow the logic and the assumptions hold..

JP..

You raised lots of good questions and U had no power all day to respond.. Had the circuit breaker panel replaced! But quickly, remember it's only theend of February.. The point is that the horses that have already hit 100are the most likelyto add 1 or 2 more big figs before the Derby. (As did Smarty, Lion Heart and Imperialism last year..). What is being suggested is that if/when High Fly, Going Wild, Alex, Rocky, Declan, etc. ADD 104, 106, 109 Beyers to their career records, they become the obvious standouts when it's time to narrow Derby wagers.

Every year there are hopefuls that throw a 100-105 Beyer in one prep leading up to the Derby. They get a lot of money Derby Day and fail to perform. What I was pointing out is that the horses that have established their credentials early as CAPABLE of approaching the typical Derby winning BSF should be central in your Derby wagers.. More tomorrow I'm sure. Glad this provoked a sprited discussion..!

Steve

JPinMaryland
02-21-2005, 11:23 PM
True, true, true. But then what is this writer going on about? It is only Fed. there are lots more prep races to come, lots more speed figs to be produced. How does the writer know already that this years crop is so bad?

OTM Al
02-22-2005, 11:23 AM
There certainly are a good number of preps to come, though at this point practically no more than 2 for a given horse. That is why I think March is the biggest month as far as preps go for determining the real contenders. For those who haven't run high end races yet, it gives them the chance to hit a high fig and then back it up again in April. For those with proven back records, its a chance to see if they have continued their development. Too many get fooled by a Tapit or a Friends Lake or a Castledale who capture those last big preps with their lifetime tops and get blown out come May.

As Derby Trail says, the 100 bsf plateau is a benchmark. If a horse is regularly hitting around that mark, he is a strong horse. Gr 1s are rarely won with figs below this level. That is why one important factor when looking for contenders is have they shown the ability to get to that level, but also very important is can they consistantly be at that level. Last year there was one horse that did that and he missed the triple crown by a length. The 100 bsf mark is only one indicator though. Take Proud Accolade. He's hit 100, but never been close around 2 turns. For that reason I look forward to seeing him come October in the BC Sprint, but have no interest in him for the TC. For my figuring, if the horse has been able to get over 100 on 2 turns its a plus, if not its a minus, but its not a complete disqualification from consideration.

andicap
02-22-2005, 11:40 AM
Considering the relative leanness of the TC crop in terms of raw numbers due to the foal tragedies -- 358 vs. 434 -- doesn't it make sense to soften the criteria listed above. I.E. instead of a pair of 100+ Beyer, a pair of 98+ Beyers.

If the crop is weaker due to the illnesses, then the criteria for making the cut should be adjusted as well.
Does anyone else make the cut if we lower the standard to 98?

JPinMaryland
02-22-2005, 03:26 PM
I believe the year Man o War was foaled there were 1680 tb horses foaled in the books.

I wonder if they recorded less in the books in them days, until they were sure they wanted to name them, or breed them etc?

JPinMaryland
02-22-2005, 03:33 PM
I also dont understand the writer's conclusion that you can start to narrow down the field based upon low scores.

If everyone in the race field has about the same speed ability, doesnt this presage a more hotly contested more wide open derby? A conclusion that is directly opposite the writers, instead of less competition there is more and hence you cant narrow the field.

Of course the writer will say that there are less "good" horses out there due to low BSFs and only these small few can win.

But then what happened to the idea that there are lots more races to come, someone will emerge etc? The one recurring pattern we see in the TC series is that there are a whole lot of latecomers to the big dance in May. And eveluating them makes it difficult, fun, a great game, etc.

Of course in the meantime we wait, we worry about the weakness of this years crop, we wonder about the miscarriages, and CAN WE NARROW THE FIELD NOW?

DerbyTrail
03-02-2005, 05:44 AM
Add Sun King to the list of 100+ Beyer by March 1 qualifiers.. Remains to be seen how the stretchouts go, but that was a quick effort. If capable at the trip, when tuned fine by Nick, he could be quite dangerous May 7th...