Do most trainers bet on their horses?

[speedking]

I've known top trainers who never bet on their horses and others who almost regarded the public as the enemy and carefully(but legally), maneuvered their horses to obtain a solid price. It seems to me that there is more insider money showing up now than ever before and wonder about perspectives from different areas and circuits.

speedking

[sjk]

The trainers who have trained for me over the years did not bet races.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I dont bet races!.I will bet my own horse as I know what I have done (legally) to help him win.There is no science to it. All a trainer has to do is make sure he is ready and run him in the proper spot.A small time trainer who does this will get a better payoff!

[cj]

I wish they all bet!

[Buddha]

It seems to me that there is more insider money showing up now than ever before
I dont know what percentage of trainers bet, but I would be willing to guess half or less. What makes you say that there is more insidere money showing up now? It very well could just be a groom, or people around the horse with big mouths telling the world that their horse is a lock tonight.

[so.cal.fan]

I'd have to say, here in So. Cal., at least 70% of trainers bet their own horses, probably about 40% bet other people's horses.
There is one hall of fame trainer I know of, who NEVER bets.....but he calls all his owners, who are all very wealthy folks, who like to bet, as well as their friends and business associates like to bet.
This guys horses are bet off the board when he likes them.
They don't always win, either.... :D
The mysteries of handicapping are just as mysterious to trainers as they are to us.

[speedking]

What makes you say that there is more insidere money showing up now? It very well could just be a groom, or people around the horse with big mouths telling the world that their horse is a lock tonight.

Buddah,

I could very well be wrong about this observation. My basis for that comment was that I've spoken with a lot of owners over the last year who are wagering more on their horses than I expected. I spent many years on the NY circuit where wagering was not as important to the owners as the thrill or glory of winning. I guess this has changed everywhere by now as partnerships have brought in many new people who are pure gamblers. I also based my thoughts on wagering patterns. Nothing I can document or give stats on, but I see a number of horses every day that are bet down with 8-4 MTP then drift back up again. Many give a good account of themselves. With the way pools are co-mingled, this fluctuation may mean nothing or it could just be good handicappers having their money dumped in at that time. Finally, at tracks with good morning lines, when I see a logical morning line favorite open up at 4/1 or 5/1; these types rarely win.

That's the basis for my speculation. Maybe there's nothing to it, that's why I asked for other opinions, especially from circuits I'm not as familiar with.


speedking

[tholl]

I've always liked to watch the odds change, in smaller pools on particular horses at about 6-8 minutes to post, assuming that money is bet by the horses connections having got their horse on the track. However it now seems to me that early money, at the first show, is becoming much more relevant. I also don't have any hard facts but that is the impression I get.

[speedking]

I've always liked to watch the odds change, in smaller pools on particular horses at about 6-8 minutes to post, assuming that money is bet by the horses connections having got their horse on the track. However it now seems to me that early money, at the first show, is becoming much more relevant. I also don't have any hard facts but that is the impression I get.

Tholl,

I watch the first flash, but don't pay too much attention at the smaller tracks. At the upper level tracks I check the ML fav. opening odds and any unusual action. I once had a trainer from So. America whose entire stable roster was made up of relatives from back home. All were accomplished horsemen, but they thought it was funny, at one point, to bet $500-1000 as soon as the windows opened and laughed at their horse being 1/9. After a few 6 and 8/1 shots ended up paying $3.60, they quickly understood what I was yelling about. I know it's unusual for stablehands to bet that much, but they were all family and pooled their money. They were hungry and greedy, but had a pretty good roll. It didn't take long before I saw them roaming the grandstand and clubhouse separately, making low key wagers. This is probably the exception, though.

speedking

[CryingForTheHorses]

Lots of times when a trainer does like his horse he wont go to the window. He will have someone do it for him so he can keep the horses odds higher.In all reality a small trainer/owner really does'nt have to bet as if he owns the horse and the purse is a nice chunk of change.I like to make a small wager so I can take the wife out for dinner.

[cj]

Lots of times when a trainer does like his horse he wont go to the window.

Send them my way, I'll book the action, and nobody will know they like their horse! :cool:

[Doc]

Of all the trainers I know, ALL of them plunge at the windows. Some heavier than others. One guy bets EVERYTHING he runs, so if I see him running to the $50 window it doesn't mean a damn thing.

Personally I think GROOMS are a better source of info about whether a horse is going to run well or not. They do most of the work and can tell if a horse or sore or not.

[tholl]

Lots of times when a trainer does like his horse he wont go to the window. He will have someone do it for him so he can keep the horses odds higher.In all reality a small trainer/owner really does'nt have to bet as if he owns the horse and the purse is a nice chunk of change.I like to make a small wager so I can take the wife out for dinner.

I don't quite understand. Why would you say a trainer who likes his horse have someone else bet it for him to keep the odds higher ? Are you saying that somebody else will place the bets in case he is spotted at the window ? (and a bunch of "sharpies" might spot him and listen in). Or are you saying that he might use, maybe, an illegal bookmaker ?? (thereby avoiding the odds pool entirely). Also, in all due respect, you being a small trainer yourself, why do you have to make a small wager to take your wife to dinner when the purse is "a nice chunk of change" ?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I've heard some trainers do not bet more than 1 day's training fees on a horse if at all.
I have not heard whether a part-owner who is the trainer bets differently than others.

[JPinMaryland]

Maybe Pete Rose was in the wrong sport?

[ElKabong]

There are some trainers in Tx that do very well betting their hosses. There's no denying that. I sure wouldn't want to to take some of those guys' action.

One, is a small time trainer named Haverkamp. He runs few, but collects huge when they win. He had a MSW winner on turf last season that pd something gaudy-- well over $50 if memory serves, and a super that was pretty big. Saw him 10 minutes after that race pocketing the $$ (had to be over 10k--had to be)and showed no emotion whatsoever while collecting. That wasn't the first time I'd seen him collect like that, but he rarely bets.

When Offolter went to the windows, and I saw him bet on a race he had one on for, I'd sure look harder at his hoss. He cashed a high % of the bets I saw him make (assuming he bet HIS horse in the race....and i'm sure he did).

There are others that do well. That's for sure.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I don't quite understand. Why would you say a trainer who likes his horse have someone else bet it for him to keep the odds higher ? Are you saying that somebody else will place the bets in case he is spotted at the window ? (and a bunch of "sharpies" might spot him and listen in). Or are you saying that he might use, maybe, an illegal bookmaker ?? (thereby avoiding the odds pool entirely). Also, in all due respect, you being a small trainer yourself, why do you have to make a small wager to take your wife to dinner when the purse is "a nice chunk of change" ?

Some trainers dont want to let anyone in on what they are doing and send either a groom or a friend to bet for them. I said taking the wife out for dinner as a joke! In all I hardly ever bet my horses.Im not into doing anything wrong when it comes to racing my horses

[TrackManSam]

I used to try and include "funny money" if you will in my handicapping, but I found out that worrying if the trainer or stable is betting just did more harm then good. I've talked myself out of several nice paying horses because I thought he was dead on the board.

TrackManSam
www.ventyourfrustration.com (http://www.ventyourfrustration.com)

[hurrikane]

I like to make a small wager so I can take the wife out for dinner.

What does she do for dinner when you lose?

[tonto1944]

At one time in the late 60's and early 70's there was one window at The Big A and Belmont that no one was allowed to bet at . It was the very last window on the ground floor.There used to be a very Large man there and he would only let certain people play. They were usually trainers. I have seen Oscar Barrara there along with Peter Ferriola and a few others.They also kept the 2 windows next to that one closed. If the large man didn't know you ,you couldn't bet there. And there was never a money amount sign at the top of the window.:bang:

[Storm Cadet]

I've seen her cash out...never place the bets though!
http://www.quarterpole.com/gallery/albums/album10/Web_020505_DG_0428.sized.jpg

[tholl]

In all I hardly ever bet my horses.Im not into doing anything wrong when it comes to racing my horses


Why would you assume that there is a connection between betting your horses and doing something wrong ?

[speedking]

At one time in the late 60's and early 70's there was one window at The Big A and Belmont that no one was allowed to bet at . It was the very last window on the ground floor.There used to be a very Large man there and he would only let certain people play. They were usually trainers. I have seen Oscar Barrara there along with Peter Ferriola and a few others.:bang:

tonto1944,

What ever became of Pete Ferriola? I know about some of his personal difficulties, but completely lost track of him. I remember him winning a 9th race at AQU one typically gloomy day and everyone gathering for the winners photo was waving mutuel tickets around. The stewards had something to say to him the next day, but nothing came of it because nobody was left to see their actions.(hardly anybody there to begin with).

speedking

[Figman]

"Pistol" Pete is retired and living in Florida. He did have some health problems near the end of his training career.

[ratpack]

I'd have to say, here in So. Cal., at least 70% of trainers bet their own horses, probably about 40% bet other people's horses.
There is one hall of fame trainer I know of, who NEVER bets.....but he calls all his owners, who are all very wealthy folks, who like to bet, as well as their friends and business associates like to bet.
This guys horses are bet off the board when he likes them.
They don't always win, either.... :D
The mysteries of handicapping are just as mysterious to trainers as they are to us.

I agree with SoCal about the number but I don't have a clue who they bet but at both SA and HOL I clearly see Trainers betting all the time.

[cj]

I've seen her cash out...never place the bets though!


Nice effort by your horse again on Saturday. He looked to be in a little over his head, but ran his heart out again. You can't ask for more from a horse than to be versatile and to try hard every time!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Why would you assume that there is a connection between betting your horses and doing something wrong ?

WOW Tholl, Looks like your fishing?.What I should have said was...I dont do anything wrong when I run or bet. I dont bet other horses in the race,I dont carry on conversions with other trainers asking them what they think. I would never bet another horse on top. Come to think of it I have never even bet a excacta! But when I do bet my horse. I usually cash. Hope this clears your mind.

[CryingForTheHorses]

What does she do for dinner when you lose?

Lmao.She cooks!! In all reality by the time you cool out your horse and take care of his problems bandage him then feed him I always take her out for dinner..EVEN when we dont race.

[Tote Master]

This topic has been tossed around a number of times on various PA threads. Yet, I don’t quite understand what the mystery is all about! Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this entire game is driven by one thing and one thing only: Money. As soon as a traditional handicapper can get off his high horse, and quit believing that they have more knowledge about a horse or the intentions of its connections, the sooner their approach to this game will change. (And perhaps even improve)

Anyone who is naive enough to believe that the connections (trainers included) don’t bet either directly or indirectly on their horses (or others) is really out of touch with this game. Perhaps they also believe they their own $2, $10, $20, or even $50 wager carries the same weight as what’s at stake for these connections. Or maybe that their $200 software package is suddenly more intuitive then a $2000 wager placed by someone who’s a lot closer to that animal then any remote data feed.

With all of the latest and greatest solutions offered over the last (25) years to predict the outcome of a race, you’d think by now that statistically things would change. When in fact nothing has changed! The favorites still get their share of winners, as do all the other entries at whatever their price might be.

Why? Because the so-called answers derived from all of these techniques are interpreted differently and simply continue to multiply opinions. So doesn’t it make anyone wonder that perhaps there’s more to this game then just the PP’s? Of course, there is something else about this game that’s never changed. It’s the common denominator: Your $20 versus their $2000 or whatever. When someone finally decides to accept it, and realizes why they’re betting on a full house to your inside straight, then perhaps another approach is called for. Because they always know what cards you’re holding, but can you say the same?

Lots of Luck.

[cj]

This topic has been tossed around a number of times on various PA threads. Yet, I don’t quite understand what the mystery is all about! Why is it so difficult to comprehend that this entire game is driven by one thing and one thing only: Money. As soon as a traditional handicapper can get off his high horse, and quit believing that they have more knowledge about a horse or the intentions of its connections, the sooner their approach to this game will change. (And perhaps even improve)



You are correct, I don't have more knowledge about a trainer's horse overall than the trainer does, though I might have better knowledge of the horse's ability than he does. What I do have is more knowledge than that same trainer about all the OTHER horses in the race. I'm sure there are some trainers that win overall at the window, but I bet as a whole, the group of trainers betting lose the track take.

[hurrikane]

I'm in cj's camp on this one. ( sorry cj)

a few thoughts.
1.why does anyone think they can discern a 2000.00 bet by a trainer in the pools at AQU?

2. why would anyone think a trainer is betting his horse because they came it at 50-1. if that were the case what did they bet...2 bucks. Big confidence move there. I would think that if a trainer was making significant bets on his horses you would see a big differnce between the MLO and off odds. I look for this in depth and have found nothing to take to the bank. There was a time FTS at CRC was a flat bet profit if bet down to 1/2 MLO. that has passed.

2. Trainers are not handicappers. Most don't have the time or desire to learn it and what they love is the game and the horses, not the gambling. They do use speed figs and pace to look at how their horse is placed and for claiming horses. So do jockies to see how a race shape lays out. They would be stupid not too. Beyond that I think they are at a loss. They can tell you if their horse if 'off the bag' or having hoof problems or is running a correcting shoe(and why the hell can't we know that every time). As far as them betting on someone elses horse, that begs the question of which horse to bet. And then you are back to handicapping.

3. The only thing a trainer betting could tell you is their horse is ready. You can usually tell that by other signs the trainer gives you. equip, jky, placement, etc.

4. I believe there is smart money at the track. I don't believe it comes from trainers. I think it comes from people paying clocker, grooms, and exercise riders to pass on information not avail to the public. Even info on shoes. But these situations can only happen in a small sample of races.

5. A trainer knows as well as anyone that there are many 'luck' factors involved in a race. Horses throwing shoes, saddles slipping, bad breaks from the gate, checks, stumbles, etc. These things can only be overcome by having a substantial number of plays, at a substantial advantage to the odds, over a long period of time. If a trainer is only betting his stock they are in a losing position just by the numbers necessary to overcome the 'luck' factor.

Do trainers bet their horses. Sure, why not.
Do they make substantial money doing it...I doubt it, most probably lose long term.
does it effect the pools, little if any IMO.
is it a handicapping factor to consider, seldom if at all. (The only caveat here may be FTS)

Just a thought....not a sermon



good luck

[Tote Master]

CJ
You are correct, I don't have more knowledge about a trainer's horse overall than the trainer does, though I might have better knowledge of the horse's ability than he does. What I do have is more knowledge than that same trainer about all the OTHER horses in the race. I'm sure there are some trainers that win overall at the window, but I bet as a whole, the group of trainers betting lose the track take.My comments were not directed at you per say, but rather all those that believe that they know more about the connection’s horse then they do. Granted any astute handicapper may know as much about the horse’s ability based on previous PP’s. However, they can only make an assumption as to what their present condition is. They have absolutely no way of knowing what there intentions are based on those the PP’s. Those same PP’s may also indicate a “trouble line”, but nowhere do they provide any intimate post-race details of the conversations between jockeys and trainers. Conversations that may have an impact the future plans for their horse.

I’m personally not aware of what the statistics are for the betting practices of all trainers. All I know is that, whether it’s the trainer or one of the other connections, there are those who have a much better estimation of their horse’s condition and how it fits the conditions of a race. Beyond that there’s also a matter of a jockey following the trainer’s pre-race instructions. An intentional factor that can always have an impact on both how well a horse performs against its competition and how it will influence the outcome of a race.

Best of Luck

[Valuist]

I think it depends on how big the trainers operation is and how successful they are. The small timers, with just a couple cheap nags, may need to cash several big wagers a year. But I really doubt the Asmussens and Pletchers of the world are betting.

I do believe early money can be very significant. The horse that figures to be 8-1 or so and he's holding at 3-1. These types win far more than their share of races.

[keilan]

Do most trainers bet on their horses?


Does a bear shit in the woods?

[ElKabong]

I think it depends on how big the trainers operation is and how successful they are. The small timers, with just a couple cheap nags, may need to cash several big wagers a year. But I really doubt the Asmussens and Pletchers of the world are betting.

I do believe early money can be very significant. The horse that figures to be 8-1 or so and he's holding at 3-1. These types win far more than their share of races.

Asmussen does at LS. I know that for a fact. Once in awhile he'll be in the tunnel checking tickets (many tix) from an asst at 1mtp. He'll look at em, nod, give em back to the asst.

Have stood behind Stidham in line at FG, he bets for sure. Not sure how much he bets tho. Hilary Pridham (his asst) has bet here, but it might have been for an owner or someone else for all I know. Both she and Pam Fitzgerald (Al Stall's top asst, who ran their local string here for a coupla yrs) always checked the monitors for the odds before betting. The window they both used was the $50 window near the door to the tunnel on the westside grandstand and they always waited till they were loading in the gate to make their bets.

[how cliche]

I look for select trainers and owners who bet heavy when they know they have a winner. It's my job to figure out who they are, when the big day is and follow them to the window. I can recognize what's a prep and when the intended day is. There is no law on the books preventing a conditioner from taking his horse and racing it into shape. These days are decipherable because they've happened in the past and certain and often subtle training is repeated with different horses in the barn which serves notice. It still takes skill as a horseman,and for us as sleuths, but it's kind of shady in my estimation. They're hiding form and disguising improvement. Martha Stewart goes to prison for insider trading. These men supplement their income by prepping, disguising and then plunging. I love it, because from time to time I can read it and bet with more confidence than a gambler should be allowed. Year making scores when everything lines up properly and a player can see the grand scheme.

[how cliche]

I would be remiss if I failed to detail a couple more items.

First of all, many posters on this thread mentioned early money as being a key indicator. At least in Northern California it's late money which tells the story. I remember some races where I surmised the "fix was in" and thought their horse was sitting too high as the clock wound down and the runners lined up to load. I started to get nervous. And then...Bam! From 35-1 to 27-1, from 19-1 to 14-1, from 10-1 to 8-1, from 9-1 to 4-1, etc. all in the closing ticks. It's a wonderful feeling to have your big bet in early and then to watch them place theirs late. You can rest easy from that point. It's my conclusion therefore that a large late plunge, when the scene is set for a "known prep & go m.o." is more likely to be a connection's plunge.

Secondly, when I play on the connection's play a very numerous and restrictive set of criteria must be met before I play. The horse must live up to at least two previous examples of long shot winners brought in by the barn in every respect. They must have shown their subtle sign of improvement the same number of races back. Their schedule insofar as the # of days between starts and works must be congruent following said improvement. Distance and surface changes must make sense from a fitness standpoint and it's made easier to read if they match up nearly line for line to the previous examples. It helps immensely if they are owned by a person who's previous horse was a past recipient of the known m.o. Finally, when all steps have led up to a connection's win, a player should then look in the condition book and figure out which race(s) the horse should be entered in. If the day(s) come and go and there's no entry, I've been looking at a mirage. It's the most frustrating part of trying to sleuth out an improving horse who's trained by a prep and go guy. I've followed horses for months who never draw $2 from my pocket. I must be patient.

[speedking]

I look for select trainers and owners who bet heavy when they know they have a winner. It's my job to figure out who they are, when the big day is and follow them to the window. I can recognize what's a prep and when the intended day is. There is no law on the books preventing a conditioner from taking his horse and racing it into shape. These days are decipherable because they've happened in the past and certain and often subtle training is repeated with different horses in the barn which serves notice. It still takes skill as a horseman,and for us as sleuths, but it's kind of shady in my estimation. They're hiding form and disguising improvement. Martha Stewart goes to prison for insider trading. These men supplement their income by prepping, disguising and then plunging. I love it, because from time to time I can read it and bet with more confidence than a gambler should be allowed. Year making scores when everything lines up properly and a player can see the grand scheme.

how cliche,

That's what handicapping is all about and why we are all here exchanging ideas and experiences. Just keep in mind that these are fragile animals and not machines. Most trainers are out there busting their butts trying to keep their horses sound and hoping that their spot will fill. The distance changes and class moves that can muddle form are part of the normal training process and usually not shady maneuvers on the trainers part. Rarely is there a conspiracy planned against the public by a trainer. It seems that most trainers these days are willing to risk a wager on their own runners if they feel the spot and odds are right, but almost never do you find a trainer "plunging" into the mutuel pools as you describe. In over 25 years of work in all phases of this business, only once did I come across a trainer setting up and plunging on a race. I was fortunate enough to find this trainer working an unknown horse before regular training hours and followed him back to the barn. Foregoing all the juicy details, he won at 8/1. This does not take into account, however, some of the newer breed, high pct. "trainers" who seem able to turn their horses on and off at will.

I had to take offense at comparing the trainers to the happy homemaking hustler, Martha Stewart. She lied repeatedly to the Feds and still has not admitted any guilt. She went to prison for lying, not insider trading, which it appears she was also guilty of. When she gets out I think she might have to deal with tax charges and possible corporate wrongdoing if they take a good look at her books and personal expenses. There is no comparison in my eyes. Most everything is in the form, stats and numbers and our job is to make enough sense of it often enough to show a profit at the end of the week, month or year.

I respect your opinion and handicapping strategies, whatever works for you is fine by me and I welcome you to the board. Good luck.

speedking

[how cliche]

how cliche,

That's what handicapping is all about and why we are all here exchanging ideas and experiences. Just keep in mind that these are fragile animals and not machines. Most trainers are out there busting their butts trying to keep their horses sound and hoping that their spot will fill. The distance changes and class moves that can muddle form are part of the normal training process and usually not shady maneuvers on the trainers part. Rarely is there a conspiracy planned against the public by a trainer. It seems that most trainers these days are willing to risk a wager on their own runners if they feel the spot and odds are right, but almost never do you find a trainer "plunging" into the mutuel pools as you describe. In over 25 years of work in all phases of this business, only once did I come across a trainer setting up and plunging on a race. I was fortunate enough to find this trainer working an unknown horse before regular training hours and followed him back to the barn. Foregoing all the juicy details, he won at 8/1. This does not take into account, however, some of the newer breed, high pct. "trainers" who seem able to turn their horses on and off at will.

I had to take offense at comparing the trainers to the happy homemaking hustler, Martha Stewart. She lied repeatedly to the Feds and still has not admitted any guilt. She went to prison for lying, not insider trading, which it appears she was also guilty of. When she gets out I think she might have to deal with tax charges and possible corporate wrongdoing if they take a good look at her books and personal expenses. There is no comparison in my eyes. Most everything is in the form, stats and numbers and our job is to make enough sense of it often enough to show a profit at the end of the week, month or year.

I respect your opinion and handicapping strategies, whatever works for you is fine by me and I welcome you to the board. Good luck.

speedking

I thank you for the thought provoking response speedking. I'd like to address some of your points.

I indeed recognize the fragility of the Thoroughbred athlete. I think that's the reason that more often than not most of these horses I isolate upon their sign of improvement, be it in the form of a plodder flashing early speed, a one paced animal who makes a middle move, or what have you, never makes it to the final race, 3 or 4 down the line that we have in mind. Their progress fizzles out, they suffer an injury, or they need freshening.

However, I do stand behind my statement of certain trainers using prep races solely to put something into their charge with a later goal in mind. Public workouts if you will. I can give you names of trainers who when everything aligns perfectly for their horse you can bet to win and know you're not guessing. Armando Lage, Steve Specht and Barry Abrams to name three. Their horse is fitter than he'll ever be and is going to run the race of his life. These are real live spot plays. I expect them to win. Price is irrelevant. I've had them when they're 9-2 or 30-1. It doesn't matter.

I remember in the final months at Blood-Horse I staked my reputation to a group of posters that a horse was going to win at GGF. I began emailing and calling about him a full ten days before he won, but I'd been following him for four months. The board was badly poisoned by that point and it was my opinion that he was too good for the Blood-Horse Forum at large, one poster in particular. If he entered either of the two races I had in mind from the condition book we were looking at a genuine spot play winner. It was stressful putting my reputation on the line. But, everything was perfect and the fix was in. I knew it. People followed me and cashed a $30.80 mutuel, bet down from 19-1 in the final tick by his connections. This winner was raced into shape and was by far the fittest he'd ever be.

I've never lost a genuine spot bet like this. The problem is they come up very rarely. One to three times a year. For the record all these horses won because they were literally primed and trained perfectly to breakout on the big day. It was their Kentucky Derby. They aren't juiced like "super trainers" such as Jeff Mullins horses are. They're skillfully prepared by expert horsemen who know how to put a win into their charge via prep races. Nothing wrong with that is there?


I overstated my point by comparing these men to Martha Stewart. I appologize for that. It was wrong and I'm sorry for having said it. Please forgive me.