No Class at All

[Tom]

http://espn.go.com/horse/triplecrown01/s/2001/0502/1190165.html

Wnat to read something absolutely disgusting-go here and read what Lukas has to say-talk about no class.
This guy is a complete A*****E. He must be lonely this wseek wihtout some new young horse to break and ruin in the bug race. I can stomach a lot of boring people, but DWL is just plain unbearabel. I hope this classless idiot is out of racing soon-we don't need this
kind of bozo. I wonder how many good older stakes horse we might have seen had DWL not ruined them early on in his "quest for press" for himself?
Tom

[PaceAdvantage]

Jeez....will the Lukas bashing ever end?? Sure he probably could have kept those Antley comments to himself...what good does that do now?? But if that's how he feels, that's how he feels. Just cause the guy died (Antley) in a less than noble way, doesn't mean he's a Saint that can't be talked about in a somewhat negative way. What's your beef?

How about this doozy Tom...If Lukas were training A P Valentine, I'm 100% POSITIVE YOU AND EVERY OTHER HALF-BAKED LUKAS BASHER OUT THERE WOULD BE SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER AT THE OUTRAGE OF RUNNING AP VALENTINE in the Derby. You'd all be SCREAMING HOW HE'S "RUINING ANOTHER ONE".

So tell me. Why hasn't there been one WORD negative about ZITO running A P Valentine??????

And don't tell me you wouldn't be all over Lukas if he were A P Valentine's trainer...all other factors being equal.

==PA

PS. This isn't off topic by any stretch. I'm moving this thread to General Discussions to get more response.

[Tom]

So tell me. Why hasn't there been one WORD negative about ZITO running A P Valentine??????

To my knowledge, Zito dosen't have a history of brekaing donw horses. Maybe he does, but I am not aware of it. Rememeber Lady's Secret? Another DWL
milestone.

PS. This isn't off topic by any stretch. I'm moving this thread to General Discussions to get more response. [/B][/QUOTE]

Move it wherever you wnat to-I thought it was off-topic becasue it doesn't relate to handicapping or raccing-Just what I think about a trainer (although I guess my thought DWL and Lukas saying what he feels count differently!) I stand by my opinion of the man.

[smf]

PA, concerning AP Valentine..,

Pitino's pony has gotten a ton of bad mouthing on Roger Stein's show. It's a weekly Zito thrashing they dish out over there. A month ago, the first words spoken on the show were "is there anyone or anything more over rated than Nicky Zito?" Response from co-host..."No".

Not that I agree w/ that sentiment, but I'm simply responding to your comment @ APV.....

Tom,

I completely agree w/ your comments/ opinion about Lukas' low class comments. What I found ridiculous was Lukas' quote > 'he (Antley) should have been sleeping w/ the horse' in DWL's reference to Antley's supposed lack of focus after the Preakness.

Gee, and all this time I thought the care of the horse was the responsibility of the trainer.

Hey, if Lukas thought Antley s/ have been taken off Charismatic, why didn't Lukas step up and take action when it was supposedly needed? That's his damn job! Don't bitch about it AFTER they toss dirt on Antley's grave.

That comment of his gave Lukas the Ch!ckens#it Magazine's 'Man of the Year' award.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tom,

So you're saying that if Lukas were training AP Valentine, you wouldn't have a problem with APV going to the Derby?? It shouldn't matter any history (and in fact, Zito once had THREE 2yos break down on him in the morning workouts in ONE WEEK at Gulfstream a few years ago, although you never knew about it....)

In any event, Lukas bashers need to get their facts straight, AND learn to do VALID comparisons to OTHER BIG NAME TRAINERS who run A COMPARABLE number of horses PER YEAR.


==PA


PS. How is this NOT horse racing related?

[Tom]

No, please don't put words in my mouth to serve you.
I didn't bring up APV-you did. I had no opinion on him or Zito-those are yours. I can't say what I would think about APV if DWL were his trainer because he is not.
Moot Point.
I was also not comparing DWL to anyone else-only making an opinion about a cheap shot made that what I think was pretty obviously timed to get his name in the press again.
I will take your word that Zito had breakdowns-lots of trainers have had break downs. Not my point.
And I put it in Off Topics because I think that people who are not interested in bantering opinions about, such as this thread has become, will stay out. It was only my opinion, nothing else.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, I brought up APV, because I wanted YOUR opinion on him. Since you responded that "Zito doesn't have a history of breaking down horses", it would fit then that you have no problem with APV running in the Derby, UNLESS Lukas was the trainer. This makes no sense to me, so I wanted some clarification. So, I'll ask it one more time:

With all things being equal, can you honestly say that you wouldn't have posted a negative Lukas post if HE were the one training APV??

Tom, this is a message board. You state your opinion, others respond, such as I did. It's all good....and I think this topic completely fits into General Discussion.

I am so tired of the Lukas bashers. He doesn't deserve half the crap they throw at him. Now a man can't reminisce about prior Triple Crown runs when asked by a reporter without getting bashed???? If he thought in hindsight that Antley didn't show enough dedication going into the Belmont, what's wrong with him stating it now??? Like I said, Antley was no saint, so I have no trouble with what Lukas said.

Imagine if Lukas HAD taken Antley off before the Belmont. Imagine all the crap he would have had to endure with that move??? It's all a delicate balance between the trainer, his owners, the press, and his horses. Lukas I believe dances this dance better than any other trainer in the world who is in his type of spotlight (though not too many are).


Later,

==PA

PS. Don't take any of this too personally. It's just a spirited message board discussion...this is what I created this place for!! :)

[Tom]

I don't know if I would have made a post-I happened to read something on another board and it just made me mad, tht's all. If DWL was training APV, I am sure I would some snide comment to make before too long.
Some people just totally turn me off-DWL is one
(and Clinton is another, and Frank Sinatra,-go figure).
Nothing is taken personally-just having fun. This is the best board going-most any others and I would be getting spammed off line by now. Or clonned.
Good luck in the Derby-I have finally decided to box the dual qualifiers and bet Monarcos flat. (Yes, I think you talked me into using APV in my box-just a hunch, but dual-q's are long-term profitable and sometimes look bad in the form).
Tom

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, I haven't heard any talk of Dual Q's this year!! Point Given, Dollar Bill, and APV are the only DQs this year.

In any event, Good luck to you Tom and everyone else. Should be a great race!


==PA

PS. At least you and I agree on Clinton!! LOL

[Richard]

I'll be the first to admit I don't know enough about DWL to either praise or criticize him.What I do believe however,is that racing definitely can use another Woody Stevens who was,in my opinion,the Dean of thoroughbred trainers.

[PaceAdvantage]

Woody was certainly no saint either when it came to breaking down horses....those who harshly criticize DWL ought to seriously research the records of other trainers with complementary sized stables....

The burden of proof is on those hurling the accusations, at least in my opinion.

I know there is at least one person on this board who is very familiar with Woody and what happened to some of his star runners (especially his Belmont winners)....

[Richard]

It seemed to me that Woody Stevens (at least more often than not)knew how to get the most out of a horse.Are you implying animal cruelty on his part?

[Lefty]

Tom, just read DWL's comments and do not find them the least offensive and classless. Given what we know now about Antley I don't blame DWL.
I'm tired of the "bad" guys getting treated like fallen
saints. This includes the deceased Antley and the still
breathing Magic Johnson. These guys are not heros.
BTW I do agree about Clinton.
Now, let's all go bet some winners.

[FortuneHunter]

What did Magic do ???

[FortuneHunter]

As long as we are on the subject, we all have the blood of the horse on our hands. Don't just pick on the trainers.
I have heard time and time again that the Thoroughbred Racing wouldn't exist if it weren't for the bettors/fans. Racing would be as popular as show jumping with no pari-mutuels.
So you support one of the cruelest and inhumane sports in the world. How many of you look at a race and say, "I'm not going to bet on this horse because his trainer is inhumane". No, you are going to bet on who you think is going to make you money. If he breaks down in the stretch and falls over the finish line, how long before you turn the page and get on to the next race?
Most of you know how cruel the sport is, but you turn your back to the dark side of the game. Horses are treated as a lifeless commodity. Their treatment is based on their earning potential. Monarchos is treated like a king, but it gets a whole lot worse when you go down the food chain. A good hard knocking allowance horse (with moderate breeding) or a gelding gets older, gets slower. Starts to slide down the claiming ranks, gets shipped to Finger Lakes, then the Great Barrington Fair. Each step down the ladder the horse gets punished a little more. Little more pain killers, little more nerving, a little stronger milkshake. In the end, they go to the killers and end up in your dog's dish. This animal that gave his heart, courage and body ends up at the killers. Where do you think all these horses are going when they no longer have earning potential?
I think horses that breakdown on the track and are destroyed actually have a more humane ending. Maybe DWL is doing them a favor?

[baravot]

FortuneHunter,

An excellent, thought- provoking and heart-felt post. How do you personally reconcile your participation in the game with your obvious repugnance at the cruelty, inhumaneness and dark side of it?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by FortuneHunter
As long as we are on the subject, we all have the blood of the horse on our hands. Don't just pick on the trainers......So you support one of the cruelest and inhumane sports in the world. Horses are treated as a lifeless commodity. Their treatment is based on their earning potential.

You've obviously never been to the backside or known people who take care of these horses for a living. If you did, you might think otherwise. I'm not saying everyone does the right thing, but the majority take very good care of their horses.....it only makes sense from an economic standpoint, if nothing else....


==PA

[PaceAdvantage]

A follow up to the Woody Stevens post......

Here is what happened to some of Woody's star runners during his Belmont streak ===>>

Conquistador Cielo -- broke down in the Travers...never ran again

Caveat -- Injured, never ran after Belmont

Swale -- We all know what happened to him

Stephan's Odyssey -- Broke down in a morning workout and was humanely destroyed.

He had 6 horses either win or place in the Belmont stakes during his big Belmont streak. Four out of the six were injured and never ran again, with two dying altogether. I'd have to really dig out the research to come up with some other lesser known Stevens runners that met similar fates....Lukas ain't the only one that has horses break down on him folks....


==PA

[Lefty]

FH, What did Magic Do? Well, it was on all the news, albeit a few yrs ago now. He cheated on his wife, contracted the HIV virus and is now treated, in the media, like a hero and role model. It sickens me.

[Tom]

Originally posted by FortuneHunter
What did Magic do ???

It's not what he did so much as who he did.
He is HIV positive. 'nother great sports role model.
Tom

[Tom]

For years, I was the schmuck getting to enjoy the sliding horses as they came to Finger Lakes-the usual cas was ship in, win once, then continue down the tubes. One of the reasons I seldom attend FL-it is a bottom-of-the-barrel track, going down fast.
I agree with PA that people who take care of the horses
care and try to treat them right-unfortunately, it is not these people that place the horses, that continue to run them lower and lower, drugged, iced, whatever. Fact is horses cost money whether they run or not.
This is why my basic philosophy is that we have far too many races, too many tracks, too many trainers, jocks, etc. The sport is watered down-for every Point Given, Finger lakes and the like get hundreds of poor animals
that are not ever going to improve or win. Remeber Zippy Chippy? He comes from FL and he has beaten a LOT of horse here a LOT of times!
Remember when the NFL actually had more than one good game a week? If No. and So. California were to combine their horse poplulations, they would have full fields, less expenses, half as many trainers and owners getting twice as much purse money and breeding back better horses. It would be better to have one 12 horse maiden claimer than two 6 horse fields. Better for the bettors, that is. As for the 50% of those that can't cut it as trainers, riders, whatever, so be it. Do something else. Learn a trade, get a job. Live with it. My great dream was to play quaterback in the NFL. Teh only reason I don't is that there are roughly 34.6 million people who can throw a football better than I can. And I get hurt easily. And I can't run very fast. A I need a nap on Sunday afternoon. Other than that, don't you think the sport of football owes me a living?
Tom

[FortuneHunter]

It is hard to reconcile being part of this game. I support a local riding stable that takes in retired thoroughbreds and retrains them as hunters and jumpers. Some eventually become school horses. If I ever become part of the industry, I would contribute part of my revenue to the disposal problem.

I feel the industry needs to address a more humane way to deal with horses at the end of the their racing life cycle. There should be a retirement fund set up by the entities that make the millions from the sport. The breeders should be part of the disposal plan.


In response to PA comments directed to me, I would like to say that I have spent some time on the backstretch at Saratoga. You can see Oklahoma Barn 86 from the house I grew up in. That is where the (Ogden Mills) Phipps stable is located. Next door is John C. Kimmel Racing Stable. These are top class outfits with top shelf stock. Their barn areas are beautiful. Flower boxes, elm trees, immaculately clean. And the horses are treated like royalty. They are royalty. On the other hand, I have been to the auctions where the horseflesh is worth $1000 to $1500 and half of the buyers are the killers. I propose to you that the humane treatment of the racehorse runs the gambit in between. It would seem to me PA that you prefer not to address the treatment of the horse when it falls below the poverty line.

The point I am making is, that this is a business; it is, as you said, economics. It is driven by money, not by compassion for the horse. As the horse loses his ability to compete because of age or ailments they no longer have a stall in the stables mentioned above. They move down the line until the majority inevitably end up at the killers. I contend that there should be a more humane way to deal with the horse disposal problem and the industry should address it more responsibly.

How about 1% of the takeout dedicated to the humane disposal of the racehorses below the poverty line that are no longer wanted?

[FortuneHunter]

As I remember, Magic’s wife forgave him for his indiscretions, why can’t you guys? I don’t think it has anything to do with being a basketball role model. Magic changed the game and what happens on the court should matter. His private life should not.

[Dave Schwartz]

FH,

While I do not choose to get too deeply involved in this "save the horses" stuff, I must take issue with your statement about Magic Johnson.

I have no desire to attack the man but the man lived a life that was (by my standards) unacceptable. He received almost the ultimate punishment and has owned his mistakes. Nevertheless, he is not the role model a true sports hero should be and that SHOULD be reflected in how he is received. (Unfortunately it is not.)

BTW, I dp not get involved with the "saving horses" stuff not because I don't care but rather because it just is not part of racing's plan to take care of them. Why should we be responsible to pick up the slack?

1% of the purse? I'd vote for that. 1% of the pool? I'd be against that.

Let racing clean up its own mess.

[Lefty]

Magic: his wife forgave him but I don't have to and I
don't want him put up as a role model for kids.
Horses: I think it's nice if we all contribute a bit to these
save the horses foundations. I do, but it's America and
everyone can do what their conscience dictates. For about $15 bucks at that horse rescue outfit you also
get a t-shirt. See Observer's post on this outfit somewhere in archives.

[HRH]

I for one am in this game for the money and don't see horse racing as cruel or inhumane at all. There are many things in life that are cruel and inhumane to humans as well and we do it. Also if horse racing is inhumane then slaughterhouses must be as well since we can live a very healthy life without eating meat. When I was younger I used to rotate shifts and when I got to the midnight shift I found it to be a very cruel shift. My foreman made the following remark one night which I'll always remember: "A farmer would have never taken a horse at 11:00 PM and worked him in the fields from 11 to 7 in the morning." Actually at that time we were still using horses in the tobacco fields.
I just do not think that horse racing is inhumane in comparison to many other sports, jobs, etc.

[Lefty]

PLEASE, don't try to equate cruelty in humans and horses...Horses don't have choices...we do.

[PaceAdvantage]

FH,

I believe we are confusing two very different subjects. On the one hand, you believe that the cruelty of the sport comes in the way that non-productive horses are discarded (that is, dropped from lower class track, to lower class track, until there are no more lower class tracks that will have them), while I was saying that those that actually CARE for the horses day to day (no MATTER the track), usually provide the best life for the horse that they can. Two very different subjects. In fact, I think you would agree with me that while at the track, most if not all thoroughbreds are treated quite well by their handlers, given the circumstances. Or maybe you wouldn't agree?

Of course we'd have to all agree that horses who can no longer provide a return on investment are dropped from stables. Those that can race at lesser tracks are picked up by lesser stables. Those that can't are picked up by those looking for a pet, a pleasure horse, a jumper or dressage horse. Unfortunately, in the real world, some are also picked up by "the killers" and shipped to the slaughterhouse.

There is no central organization that attempts to save the life of an unwanted racehorse in a systematic way. It really is the luck of the draw whether or not an unwanted racehorse gets to live the rest of his life doing something else, or ending up in the hands of the killers. This we all agree on.

Until a centralized organization that looks out for the well being of unwanted racehorses comes into existence, all we can do as fans of the sport is to give to those charities that exist TODAY. Observer has posted many of these charities. It's up to us to make the move and contribute to these worthy causes.


==PA

[FortuneHunter]

PA,

I agree that majority of the handlers on the backstretch provide good care for the horses. There are some bad apples as there is anywhere. I think the pressures of the business force trainers to push the physical limit of the horse and sometime they push too hard. I recognize that providing top care is sound business. I see that you recognize the disposal problem. I central organization to provide quality control of the disposal problem is the right idea, in my opinion. I think the majority of thoroughbreds have it too rough in the end.

Apparently Dave S. and I see it different in regards to whom should take a stake in this. I think the patron and the industry should be responsible. Part of the purse, part of the takeout, part of the stud fee, should be used to address the disposal problem. Everybody pays a little.

Dave made his position clear, it is not his problem. What do you all think? Should the better pay a disposal tax if the state, track, owners, breeders buy in and contribute too?? I know I would feel better about the racing game. Thoroughbreds lay their life on the line, the life and death struggle down the stretch, the class to reach down and not let that other horse by even if it kills them. They deserve something back from the people who patronize the sport.

P.S. What Magic Johnson did in his private life and what Larry Bird did in his should have no bearing on their status as sports heroes. It is none of our business. They didn’t bring private life onto the court. How he contracted HIV isn’t any of your business. They both have the heart of champions. Just my opinion.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tom,

Did you see what Lukas had to say today? If what he said was true (and there really is absolutely NO reason to make that stuff up), then I welcome his comments. They may not be the most sensitive words ever spoken, but I'm guessing a member of the media pressed the issue with Lukas, and he's never been one to duck a question....nothing like hearing all sides to a story. Although I am beginning to see your point a bit...what difference does it all make at this point?


==PA

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Tom,

Did you see what Lukas had to say today? If what he said was true (and there really is absolutely NO reason to make that stuff up), then I welcome his comments. They may not be the most sensitive words ever spoken, but I'm guessing a member of the media pressed the issue with Lukas, and he's never been one to duck a question....nothing like hearing all sides to a story. Although I am beginning to see your point a bit...what difference does it all make at this point?


==PA

No...I didn't see anything, but I haven't looked at a Form this week. What was it aobut?
Tom

[PaceAdvantage]

Tom,

This should light a fire under you!! LOL (just kidding). Lukas expounds on his earlier comments on Antley and the 1999 Triple Crown.


http://www.drf.com/news/article/29032.html



==PA

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Tom,

This should light a fire under you!! LOL (just kidding). Lukas expounds on his earlier comments on Antley and the 1999 Triple Crown.


http://www.drf.com/news/article/29032.html



==PA
Thanks for the link. No fire, just what I would have expected the day before the Belmont. There was a time when I did't even know DWL was alive-maybe someday there will be a time when I care that he is. I think it best to ignore him-there is nothing the man can ever do or say that will cause me to give him any respect. He is just the kind of person I have no use for. He is one of the main reasons I will probably not even watch the Belmont-I just know all the media will be flocking around him like he has something to offer. I will watch stop-action YouBet instead. (That and I have had it with three year old racing-gag,hack,gag-no one agrees with me, but I still think this is a pathetic crop of underachievers with inflated Beyers, but hey, if we all agreed, everything would be 1-5).
Good luck in the contest....I will post my selections early Saturday so that everyone can have at least one automatic elimination in each race!)