Alan Keyes and his gay daughter

[LutherCalvin]

Alan Keyes is one of the men I admire most in the world. He is a humble, compassionate man of integrity who also happens to be one of the greatest orators of his generation. His opposition to abortion can be be compared to the abolitionists of the 19th century in their crusade against another great moral evil, slavery. I voted for Alan Keyes twice; in a presidential primary, and for governor of Illinois. I had the privilege of working in his campaign and met him personally on two occasions. His is the only political campaign to which I have contributed money. During the Illinois contest against Obama it was rumored that Keyes' daughter was gay. This came on the heels of Keyes' comment that homosexuals were "selfish hedonists", remarks that the liberal media used to pillory him. Now it appears that Keyes' 19 year old daughter is coming out of the closet and defending her gay lifestyle. Alan Keyes' response was to kick her out of his house and refuse to pay for her education- not because she is gay, which is the spin that the media will place on his actions, but because she is actively promoting immorality. Alan Keyes is a man of integrity and it must be very painful for him to disown his daughter, but there are indeed more important things than family relationships.

[Secretariat]

So you would support Cheny kicking out or disowning his daughter?

I guess it goes to whether you beleive this is a "lifestyle" choice or is one prompted by genetic or biological necessity.

Actually, I don't beleive in discriminating against family members because they are gay, or black, or even Evangelical. I think Dick Cheney would agree as well. Hard to beleive I am in agreement with him on anything. I don't see Alan Keyes as a man of integrity because he threw his daughter out. I see it as a man who really needs to sit down and talk to his daughter, and love her unconditionally despite who her lover is.

[JustRalph]

she is 19.......I support the right of any parent to kick a 19 year old out the door for any reason.........:) :D

[boxcar]

Secretariat wrote:

So you would support Cheny kicking out or disowning his daughter?

I guess it goes to whether you beleive this is a "lifestyle" choice or is one prompted by genetic or biological necessity.

Actually, I don't beleive in discriminating against family members because they are gay, or black, or even Evangelical. I think Dick Cheney would agree as well. Hard to beleive I am in agreement with him on anything. I don't see Alan Keyes as a man of integrity because he threw his daughter out. I see it as a man who really needs to sit down and talk to his daughter, and love her unconditionally despite who her lover is.

If the daughter is living under his roof, then, as her father, he has every right to set the rules of the household.

In that situation, I probably would have done the same thing -- but that doesn't mean I would "disown" her or stop loving her. All it would mean is that I would not tolerate her immoral lifesyle, while living under my roof. I would in no way want to send her any kind of signal or message of tacit approval by allowing her to remain under my roof.

And let us know when the "great men of science" find that gay gene (not to be confused, of course, with gay Gene), okay?

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

Alan Keyes is one of the men I admire most in the world. He is a humble, compassionate man of integrity who also happens to be one of the greatest orators of his generation. His opposition to abortion can be be compared to the abolitionists of the 19th century in their crusade against another great moral evil, slavery. I voted for Alan Keyes twice; in a presidential primary, and for governor of Illinois. I had the privilege of working in his campaign and met him personally on two occasions. His is the only political campaign to which I have contributed money. During the Illinois contest against Obama it was rumored that Keyes' daughter was gay. This came on the heels of Keyes' comment that homosexuals were "selfish hedonists", remarks that the liberal media used to pillory him. Now it appears that Keyes' 19 year old daughter is coming out of the closet and defending her gay lifestyle. Alan Keyes' response was to kick her out of his house and refuse to pay for her education- not because she is gay, which is the spin that the media will place on his actions, but because she is actively promoting immorality. Alan Keyes is a man of integrity and it must be very painful for him to disown his daughter, but there are indeed more important things than family relationships.


So you're the guy who voted for Alan Keyes. I thought he was an urban legend. Yes, you're right. It takes a truly compassionate man to disown a 19 year old daughter for being genetically disposed toward homosexuality. Unless, of course, in spite of the best scientific evidence it is actually environmental, which suggests that this moral man is a rotten parent.

Either way, you can have him. Preferrably back in Maryland. Illinois made it clear they didn't want him.

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

So you're the guy who voted for Alan Keyes. I thought he was an urban legend. Yes, you're right. It takes a truly compassionate man to disown a 19 year old...

Can you produce a quote by Keyes wherein he said he "disowned" her? I would like to see that, please.

Of course, failure to produce such a quote would mean that you're genetically disposed to making misleading or outright false statements? Or...would it mean you're parents, in your home environment, didn't do such a swell job with you either?

Let us know one way or the other, will ya?

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

[QUOTE=boxcar]betchatoo wrote:

So you're the guy who voted for Alan Keyes. I thought he was an urban legend. Yes, you're right. It takes a truly compassionate man to disown a 19 year old...

Can you produce a quote by Keyes wherein he said he "disowned" her? I would like to see that, please.

Of course, failure to produce such a quote would mean that you're genetically disposed to making misleading or outright false statements? Or...would it mean you're parents, in your home environment, didn't do such a swell job with you either?

Let us know one way or the other, will ya?

Gee Soapbox:
I just took Calvin's word for it (see his quote). And a conservative wouldn't lie, would he?

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

Gee Soapbox:
I just took Calvin's word for it (see his quote). And a conservative wouldn't lie, would he?

How terribly naieve you are! And how impressionable and quick you are to believe what you want to believe.

First, it's not a question of taking anyone word's for it. Calvin was simply drawing his own personal conclusion. And Calvin's conclusion may not accurately reflect Keye's personal sentiments.

So...until such time I see a Keye's quote in print or hear his words for myself, I will not leap to the conclusion that he has "disowned" his daughter. For a parent (most especially a principled one) can indeed impose sanctions upon their kids, apart from disowning them.

So...tell us: What gene made you jump to such foolish conclusions? Or didn't your folks teach you any better?

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

Alan Keyes' Daughter Coming Out

Feb. 13, 2005



(CBS) The 19-year-old daughter of Alan Keyes has a Valentine for the anti-gay rights conservative pundit and frequent Republican candidate.

Maya Marcel-Keyes will be making her first public appearance as a gay activist at a Valentine Day's rally in front of the Maryland State House, says Dan Furmansky, the leader of Equality Maryland, a gay rights group.

Last summer her father, a conservative pundit and frequent Republican candidate, caused a stir during the Republican convention by labeling Vice President Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter a sinner and calling homosexuality "selfish hedonism."

"It was kind of strange that he said it like a hypothetical," she told the Washington Post. "It was really kind of unpleasant."

Marcel-Keyes told the Post her parents have thrown her out of the house, stopped speaking to her* and refuse to pay for college because she is gay. She said she loves her parents.

Keyes' Web site says he is against "the homosexual rights agenda, including same-sex marriage."

Marcel-Keyes grew up in Darnestown, Md., attended a conservative Catholic school for girls in McLean, Va., spent a year in the south of India advocating tribal rights, and plans to attend Brown University this fall, according to an Equality Maryland press release.

Furmansky told CBSNews.com that Marcel-Keyes would not be speaking to the media ahead of Monday's rally, and probably not afterward, either.


*I would call this disowning her. Maybe you have a different term. Depends on how naive you are

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

I would call this disowning her. Maybe you have a different term. Depends on how naive you are.

Since you, Calvin, the press nor I know the full context of Keyes' "sanctions" (e.g. the exchange of words that ensued, I'm sure, between parents and daughter), and since the daughter is probably upset (perhaps even emotionally distraught, it would be fair to say), we shouldn't just accept her side of the story alone, should we? At least fair-minded people would be reluctant to do so. Are there not at least two sides to every story?

Now what were you saying about naivete? You teach me, sir, about this topic; and I'll teach you about the wisdom and prudence of erring on the side of caution in such matters.

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

Having seen so many of your posts, I doubt you would be so "fair minded" were Keyes a liberal. Thus far Mr. Keyes has refused to speak to the issue. But having been privey to so much of his political rhetoric here in Illinois, I find I do not care for his views or him. So I have decided I don't need to be fair in this issue.

My right, wouldn't you say?

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

Having seen so many of your posts, I doubt you would be so "fair minded" were Keyes a liberal.

Well...let me see how fair you are when it comes to a Liberal, then: Whaddya think about Dean's hate speech toward Republicans?

So I have decided I don't need to be fair in this issue.

My right, wouldn't you say?

Why certainly. Why would I expect a different sentiment from any morally bankrupt Liberal? :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

[QUOTE=boxcar]betchatoo wrote:

Having seen so many of your posts, I doubt you would be so "fair minded" were Keyes a liberal.
Well...let me see how fair you are when it comes to a Liberal, then: Whaddya think about Dean's hate speech toward Republicans?

To tell the truth I haven't seen or read it. But I don't approve of hate messages no matter who delivers them

So I have decided I don't need to be fair in this issue.

My right, wouldn't you say?

Why certainly. Why would I expect a different sentiment from any morally bankrupt Liberal? :rolleyes:

Ooch, ouch! Okay, I'm lying. That didn't hurt at all. 1st you have no idea who I am or what I'm about, and secondly I can only be hurt by people I respect. :p :p :p

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

Ooch, ouch! Okay, I'm lying. That didn't hurt at all. 1st you have no idea who I am or what I'm about

No...I don't know "who" you are, but I do have a sense of what you're about when you so blithe toss aside the coveted moral quality of fairness and so strongly favor and embrace the evils of unjustness. Does't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

and secondly I can only be hurt by people I respect. :p :p :p

A rock would have a better sense of fairness than you possess, and, therefore, more "heart". I'd have a far better chance of hurting it before anyone of your ilk.

Boxcar

[so.cal.fan]

I rarely agree with Secretariat's posts, but I do on this issue.
Vice President Cheney and his wife would not share Alan Keyes view.

[JustRalph]

Oh come on! She just hasn't found the right guy yet............;)

[boxcar]

JustRalph wrote:

Oh come on! She just hasn't found the right guy yet............;)

Yeah, she has. It's just that Chelsea hasn't come out her closet yet. :)

Boxcar

[betchatoo]

A rock would have a better sense of fairness than you possess, and, therefore, more "heart". I'd have a far better chance of hurting it before anyone of your ilk.

Boxcar

Good grief man. With your overstated self righteousness and ponderous style, you must be a laugh riot to be around.

[betchatoo]

JustRalph wrote:

Oh come on! She just hasn't found the right guy yet............;)

Yeah, she has. It's just that Chelsea hasn't come out her closet yet. :)

Boxcar

Please explain your morality, sense of fairness or proof in the statement that Chelsea is gay.

Damn immoral hypocrites come in conservative sizes too, don't they?

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

Please explain your morality, sense of fairness or proof in the statement that Chelsea is gay.

Damn immoral hypocrites come in conservative sizes too, don't they?

So among other things, such as your lack of any sense of fairness, you're humor-impaired to boot? Didn't notice my little smiley?

Did your hot rage so blind you, so that now you can only see Red? Tsk, tsk. Better take a cold shower, to cool yourself down. Wouldn't want you to prematurely expire from overheating and go the way of molten rock.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Man, this thread is sinking lower and ower.

[betchatoo]

Did your hot rage so blind you, so that now you can only see Red? Tsk, tsk. Better take a cold shower, to cool yourself down. Wouldn't want you to prematurely expire from overheating and go the way of molten rock.

Boxcar

Soapbox:

You don't inspire rage, only boredom. I'm with Tom. This thread is worn out

[boxcar]

betchatoo wrote:

You don't inspire rage, only boredom. I'm with Tom. This thread is worn out.

Well...I, for one, am happy to see that you, evidently, have taken a nice long soak in a tub of ice. Substituting "boredom" for rage is a good thing; for It's not healthy to let the "sun go down on your anger". ;)

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

betchatoo wrote:

Please explain your morality, sense of fairness or proof in the statement that Chelsea is gay.

Damn immoral hypocrites come in conservative sizes too, don't they?

So among other things, such as your lack of any sense of fairness, you're humor-impaired to boot? Didn't notice my little smiley?


Boxcar

I don't think anyone is laughing Box. Just shaking their heard.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Yeah, I gotta admit Chelsa really is an out-of-bounds hit. She can't be held responsible for how anyone feels about her parents.

And while I can't condone nor stand "Legally Marrying" a same-sex couple, it still seems sad, albeit consistent, that Mr. Keyes has so far handled it the way he has.

I tend to agree with the "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" philosophy. Yes, I sure wouldn't appreciate my children doing immoral sexual acts when visiting/staying in my home (hetro or homosexual), but if I do love my children, I'd want them to have a full education, if I'd had the abilty to pay for it, and had planned on doing so even after they turned 18. But it is their families decision to make. I'd like to think I'd handle it a little differently, although with no kids I (thankfully) may never be put to that test.

I know it must be pretty hard to sign that large check to pay for tution, room & board. Heck, gotta be hard if one doesn't like their Major they chose, let alone this other big issue.

[Suff]

I tend to agree with the "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" philosophy. Yes, I sure wouldn't appreciate my children doing immoral sexual acts when visiting/staying in my home (hetro or homosexual), but if I do love my children, I'd want them to have a full education, if I'd had

I know it must be pretty hard to sign that large check to pay for tution, room & board. Heck, gotta be hard if one doesn't like their Major they chose, let alone this other big issue.

I don't agree with everything you wrote there steve.. But I do see a real sense of caring and thought in your post. And I think those two ingredients go along way in resolving differences.

I have a 16 year old nephew that thinks he "may" be gay. I hope he's not because its a Tough road in todays world... and thats the only reason.

I thank God.. I have a Loving Sister that has a relationship with her children and Me, that things like this can be discussed with out fear. Homosexual Teenagers are three times more likely to attempt suicide. Its an extremely difficult thing. I want the best for him and I'm so happy I have a family that anything and everything can be worked out as long as we talk about it and work at it.

I really don't think he's gay... I just think he's like many young pubescent boys that are struggling with sexuality and sex issues. My sister has him in counseling and he knows he is loved by all his Family. I tell him all the time I love him.. because it makes us Both feel good.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Thanks Suff! I think you and your family are doing the right things, and I hope your nephew has a good and wonderful life, in any of the ways and things he learns about himself.

I used a common phrase - "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin", but "Hate" seems an awfully strong word to use - it is meant for the sin itself, not the person. There is the need to care for the human side, and for those of us in a Christian context, encouraging living a lifestlye that is compatible with the teachings in scripture. It isn't necessarily our normal human thoughts that are sins, but more how we handle actually conduct ourselves regarding our thoughts.

I'm Catholic, and live in the Chicago Arch-Diosese (for non-Catholics, thats just a name for a very large territory, where a Bishop, often a Cardinal, leads other Bishops). Our local church was asked several years ago to allow a Mass (Worship Service) for those attending a National Catholic Gay and Lesbian Organization conference at a local hotel. Our Pastor, myself, and all of us on the Parish (church) Board were very glad to help out, and arranged and attended the pre-Mass reception, and the Mass was celeberated by Chicago's ArchBishop (Cardinal George). We also helped 'run interference' by serving as ushers, keeping an eye out for any protesters or disruptive activists that might threaten to ruin the experience for our visitors, as well as to discourage the disruptions by the local news media attempting to cover the event. Thankfully we had none of the active and/or slightly violent protesters (pre-9/11 standards) that this group had sadly experienced in the past. They did have a few picketers around the hotel, however.

We were truly glad to reach out to our brothers and sisters, both gay and lesbian, and those who minister to them (of 'straight' or 'non-straight' persuasions). By our faith, we humbly acknowledge that all mankind sins, regardless of the type of sin, and we are all called to God, and are challenged to live in his ways.

I had a great chat with one of the members from the conference. While we disagreed on the church sanctioning their relationships, I told him we all faced challenges at Christians and in our case Catholics. By myself being a recently "Divorced Catholic", I too faced a challenge in my case of potential future hetrosexual relationships. Yes, I have the opportunity for Annulment (think of it as Divorce, but the Church agrees that your relationship truly wasn't blessed by God), so my situation was still certainly easier than what he and his lover were facing. But him and I were both facing the same challenge of living chaste lives, just as all non-married Christians. Christians of all branches are all challenged to live the Gospel life, regardless of what specific sins tempt them. So we wanted them, as our fellow Catholics, loved by God who loves all his people, challenged like all of us, to be welcome with us.

As Christians, being challenged doesn't always mean we succeed. But do we need to acknowledge our faults, seek forgiveness of our sins, and continue to try to live up to the challenge we are called to.

It was a wonderful faith experience for our guests and those of us from the Parish who were involved, and we were really glad we reached out.

[Steve 'StatMan']

...but we do need to acknowlege our faults...

sorry, ran out of time for editing.

[Tom]

People are what they are. If you can't stand behind your child for being what they are, you are a failure as a parent. I haven't seen any evidence this guy actually said or did what he is accused of, so I won't say anyting about him specifically.

[boxcar]

Steve'StatMan'BTW wrote:

As Christians, being challenged doesn't always mean we succeed. But do we need to acknowledge our faults, seek forgiveness of our sins, and continue to try to live up to the challenge we are called to.

I couldn't help but notice the conspicuous absence of the "R" word in your posts. Where does the biblical doctrine of repentance fit into the catholic faith? Or does it? If it does fit in somehow, what does it mean to you?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Secretariat wrote:

I don't think anyone is laughing Box. Just shaking their heard.

What's a "heard"? I never saw one shake. Must be quite a sight.

Boxcar

[Steve 'StatMan']

Steve'StatMan'BTW wrote:

As Christians, being challenged doesn't always mean we succeed. But do we need to acknowledge our faults, seek forgiveness of our sins, and continue to try to live up to the challenge we are called to.

I couldn't help but notice the conspicuous absence of the "R" word in your posts. Where does the biblical doctrine of repentance fit into the catholic faith? Or does it? If it does fit in somehow, what does it mean to you?

Boxcar

Thanks for pointing that out Boxcar, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I did do some generalizing in my prior post.

Repentance from sin is key for all Christians, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike, although God does offer us unconditional love.

Part of that Repentance process begins by being truly sorry in our hearts and acknowleging when we have sinned against God. We then are to turn away from sin by making changes in our lives. Alms giving is the third part of it, by giving of our time, talent and treasure, in a sincere jesture of the one's heartfelt intentions (no, not a way to buying ones way out of sins). For Catholics, we have our priests as a representative of God, to help us in this process, guide us in those acknolegements and offering thoughts on how to turn away from the sins, to direct prayer or other forms of contrite acts/alms giving, and reminding us of God's love for us.

Can this be done on our own, without a priest or reverend? Personally, I pray and believe that God will do so, for those who are truly sorry and are pennintent. All of us Christians, are to reflect on our lives and pray for forgiveness of our sins. For Catholics, I think it is very important to do this in-between times of visiting a priest for reconciliation. I do know that I feel much better when I actually see a priest, admit my sins with a sorrowful and contrite heart, and commit myself and make changes in my life. Like a big weight has been lifted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had some thoughts last night after I wrote last nights post. I hope that it was clear, that the messages our gay and lesbian guests received from the Church and the Cardinal made it very clear about church teachings, and that they were living in sin, telling them full well that that weren't going to be told what they had wanted to hear. The gay/lesbiasn lifestyle just is not compatitible with Christian teaching (nor Judaism nor Islam, all 3 faiths decended from Father Abraham) and it wasn't going to be changed. They were, however, reassured that of God's unconditional love for them, and that they are still cared about, despite their sin. That was important.

Their repentance, obviously, is up to them, made harder by lifestyles and living arrangements, let alone their own desire to change their lives. But with God, the door is always open to those who seek him with a contrite heart.

[boxcar]

Thanks for pointing that out Boxcar, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I did do some generalizing in my prior post.

Repentance from sin is key for all Christians, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike, although God does offer us unconditional love.

StatMan, I'm a little confused -- perhaps because I haven't had enough moca yet. :) But what do you mean when you say, "God does offer us unconditional love"? Is this analogous to an offer of eternal life (salvation), for example? Or, not wanting to put words in your mouth, did you mean to say that God actually loves everyone unconditionally?

Boxcar

[Steve 'StatMan']

Thanks for pointing that out Boxcar, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I did do some generalizing in my prior post.

Repentance from sin is key for all Christians, Catholic and Non-Catholic alike, although God does offer us unconditional love.

StatMan, I'm a little confused -- perhaps because I haven't had enough moca yet. :) But what do you mean when you say, "God does offer us unconditional love"? Is this analogous to an offer of eternal life (salvation), for example? Or, not wanting to put words in your mouth, did you mean to say that God actually loves everyone unconditionally?

Boxcar

I think you express these things better than I do. Yes, God's love is unconditional. Not really an offer, because God and his love is always there. It is up to each person to accept it. (Sorry, I guess I tend to think of the term 'Standing Offer', always there, waiting for us to accept it when we're ready) Hopefully those that haven't accepted it yet will, instead of reject it, but God and his love are always there waiting).

The big offer, of course, is the salvation, the eternal life.

You've made a number of good posts Boxcar, and I've had the time to read, enjoy and reflect on some of them. Sadly, I haven't had the time to read all of them, perhaps someday I'll be able to play catch-up.