Loose horse question

[cj]

I was reading an article in one of the old Meadow's Racing Monthy issues, and it got me to thinking about something. Does a loose horse (no jockey) in front of the field trigger the timer, either at the fractional calls or the finish? I would guess it doesn't, but if not, does anyone know how they stop this from happening.

[Figman]

There's an override switch to temporarily disable the light beam. In NY the photo finish operator has the control.

[Tom]

I always assumed the loose horse tripped the beam. For years, whenever I saw a live race of reply where a loose horse was in front, Imade notes about htat race and later made adustment bases on my guess at how far in fron the horse was. Probably never made a winning bet based onthat, and now that you tell me they can disable it, I wonder how many winners I "adjusted" myself off of? :mad:

[cj]

I'd like to see how accurate the override switch is if the loose horse is 3/4 of a length or even 2 lengths in front of the field. That's not a lot of reaction time for a human being, but is a lot in terms of time in horse racing.

[gillenr]

Cj, the situation you describe is a problem. At AP, a person turns on the individual timing "stick" just as the horses approach it, & certainly a close loose horse could affect it.

[Figman]

CJ,
This following story is absolutely true. Until a few years ago the photo finish and timing at all NYRA tracks was done by D&S Photo Finish. "D" had originally worked for Jones Precision Photo Finish Company that held the NYRA contract. "D"(Don) combined with "S"(Sal) to form D&S Photo Finish. NYRA contracted with D&S and the new partnership held the NYRA contract for close to two decades. D&S decided to cash in on the equity they had built up in their business and put the business up for bid. They had instituted many technical advances to the system. There were four or five bidders all of whom had the same caveat. They would further institute technical advances in the photo and timing systems and ALL suitors also insisted that they keep "D" from D&S Photo as the onsite operator.

NYRA liked everything about D&S except that "D" liked to smoke cigars while on the job each day. D&S did sell their business to a much larger company. "D" is so, so good at this job that "D" is still there today watching for both birds and loose horses interferring with the timing as well as providing the computerized photo fiinish pictures for the placing judges and the beaten lengths at the finish from the system for Equibase every NYRA raceday.

[McSchell_Racing]

I was reading an article in one of the old Meadow's Racing Monthy issues, and it got me to thinking about something. Does a loose horse (no jockey) in front of the field trigger the timer, either at the fractional calls or the finish? I would guess it doesn't, but if not, does anyone know how they stop this from happening.

What a great question CJ, I always thought the timer was triggered when the horses passed the first beam 10 to 15 feet out of the gate, The first beam is at the starter stand, I have never heard of a overide switch, Would be very hard if the loose horse was a head in front, YES I do think this would affect the time of a race if they didnt have a override switch.

[gillenr]

There is no over-ride switch at AP, & probably not at any major track. The various timing sticks are enabled by an operator as the horses approach.

[McSchell_Racing]

Various timing sticks with operators..I have never heard of this Gary, It also doesnt sound very good in my mind because if as you say..couldnt a guy hit the timer before the horse went by?..I dont understand what you mean. I am used to the beam. At woodbine when we had the Marshall turf, You could walk across the turf and watch them run by the hedge. The officals were always worried someone would coverup the timer with their hand. Please explan this timing device.Thanks

[JustMissed]

Don't you wish we had a PA member who had worked at a racetrack before?

I don't mean a popcorn lady or parking lot attendant, but maybe a caller, stewart, starter or racing offical.

I bet that guy out in Texas would know the answer but I'm not sure he lurkes here anymore. I think he was the PR guy at Sam Houston.

He struck me as the kind of guy that if he didn't know the answer he would pick up the telephone and find out.

Anyway, we have a lot of bright folk posting here but when I see post where the fellow doesn't even know which post the pace call is at, I get a little freaked.

IF THERE ARE ANY FORMER TRACK EMPLOYEES OUT THERE, WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

JM :)

[Buddha]

Don't you wish we had a PA member who had worked at a racetrack before?


We do. The guy you were thinking of is PurplePower. He is at HOU Also, Mountainman is if I am not mistaking, the Asst. Racing Sec at MNR. I will see what I can uncover here at MNR about the timing system tomorrow.

[Show Me the Wire]

As gillenr posted timing sticks are activated by an operator as the horses approach the stick (timing beam).

McShell if the all the beams (sticks) were activated once the first beam was broken, the timing device could be fooled by a bird, piece of paper, or anything moving through the beam prior to the horses arrival. For example, if the timer started at the 3/4 pole and all the other beams were activated, at that precise time, a bird flying around the 1/4 pole could activate the 1/4 pole timer beam prior to the horses arriving at the 1/2 mile pole. To avoid this obvious problem each timing stick (beam) is turned on by a person when in his judgment the horses are close enough to the timer and no other random movement will prematurely start the timer.

[PaceAdvantage]

PurplePower posted on here last month, so I assume he still reads the site...

[BillW]

I saw PP logged in last night - he has just been busy lately. I last talked to him Friday.

Bill

[BetHorses!]

This is a great thread and I am looking forward to reading some more from the experts out there. This would be a great column for someone in the racing business to write about.


Also, that record Gulfstream race at the beginning of the meet comes to mind, but I think it was determined valid.

Interesting stuff! I would think some sheet insiders would be able to shed some light on this also.

[BillW]

As gillenr posted timing sticks are activated by an operator as the horses approach the stick (timing beam).

McShell if the all the beams (sticks) were activated once the first beam was broken, the timing device could be fooled by a bird, piece of paper, or anything moving through the beam prior to the horses arrival. For example, if the timer started at the 3/4 pole and all the other beams were activated, at that precise time, a bird flying around the 1/4 pole could activate the 1/4 pole timer beam prior to the horses arriving at the 1/2 mile pole. To avoid this obvious problem each timing stick (beam) is turned on by a person when in his judgment the horses are close enough to the timer and no other random movement will prematurely start the timer.

From an engineering point of view, these devices will also have electronic filters built into the interface electronics that would prevent artifact from triggering false positives. i.e. a pulse coming from the sensor would be required to be of reasonable length. A "blip" that would obviously be too short for a horse would be filtered.

Bill

[JustMissed]

We do. The guy you were thinking of is PurplePower. He is at HOU Also, Mountainman is if I am not mistaking, the Asst. Racing Sec at MNR. I will see what I can uncover here at MNR about the timing system tomorrow.

I've listened to Mark and Nancy's show four nights a week for over two years.

Not only is he Ass't Racing Secretary, his show partner is a trainer and his brother is a jock agent(or at least was).

Mark has forgotten more about racing than most folks learn in a life time.

He showed some interest in the "Key Race" thread but I haven't seen him around much lately.

JM :)

[gillenr]

As gillenr posted timing sticks are activated by an operator as the horses approach the stick (timing beam).

McShell if the all the beams (sticks) were activated once the first beam was broken, the timing device could be fooled by a bird, piece of paper, or anything moving through the beam prior to the horses arrival. For example, if the timer started at the 3/4 pole and all the other beams were activated, at that precise time, a bird flying around the 1/4 pole could activate the 1/4 pole timer beam prior to the horses arriving at the 1/2 mile pole. To avoid this obvious problem each timing stick (beam) is turned on by a person when in his judgment the horses are close enough to the timer and no other random movement will prematurely start the timer.

You explained it better than I did!

[Show Me the Wire]

BillW:


"From an engineering point of view, these devices will also have electronic filters built into the interface electronics that would prevent artifact from triggering false positives. i.e. a pulse coming from the sensor would be required to be of reasonable length. A "blip" that would obviously be too short for a horse would be filtered."

Might be possible, but I do not think the racetrack wants to take the chance of a false positive triggering the beam, so they turn the beam on manually as the horses approach.

Also as a back-up a person hand times each race in case of a timer malfunction.

[Buddha]

Also as a back-up a person hand times each race in case of a timer malfunction.

Not at all tracks. Especially at MNR and HOU where they are known to at times have no times, or missing fractions.

[thoroughbred]

This is a very interesting thread. Never thought about the loose horse in connection with the tripping of the timers.

As a result another question comes to mind.

Isn't some device tripped when a photo is needed for a photo finish of the place position? If a timer were associated with the place position, that could be used for the time of the race, if the winning timer was tripped earlier by a loose horse coming in "first."

Is this possible to do?

[Macdiarmadillo]

For the old film camera at least, place photos are just from a continuation of the roll for the picture started just ahead of the winner crossing the line. And the camera is only fired up manually when the horses near the finish; the floodlights go on and you can see the spinning gizmo winding up in the mirror posted at the finish line. So it's not a usable backup for timing at all.

You might be able to use the video patrol since there are built in timing functions in the cameras like the home cams, but you'd have to have a camera placed right at the finish line and dead on to the timers; I know they all are not.

BTW, did you know the finish line in photos is placed there by the film developer with the aid of marks at the edge of the film that we normally aren't shown? Ol' Crookedhands could easily angle the line slightly, so I hope the stewards see the photos with the edge marks and not what we are shown.

[Earl336]

Excellent question.



Earl336