Horse Match Up Bets at Pinnacle

[trying2win]

I just noticed a new bet listed at the PINNACLE website lately. It's a two horse, match up type of bet.

I recall seeing some similar type of bet in the past. I believe it was named head-to head. I can't remember whether it was at the EHORSE or BETFAIR site, that used to offer this sort of bet.

I don't know how these match up bets work. Can someone explain it please? Also, what do those numbers mean on the betting lines at the Pinnacle site on these match up bets? For example in one race on Sat. Feb. 12/05 at SA, one horse reads -199, while the other reads +189. I also noticed there is a button at the bottom of the betting page that reads 'UPDATE LINE'. How does pressing the 'UPDATE LINE' button fit into the picture, if a person is considering making a horse match up bet?

Does anyone like making this type of wager?

Thanks,

T2W

[ratpack]

I believe they offered those wagers on certain races at the Breeders Cup when it was at Santa Anita in 2003. By that I mean it was on the actual wagering menu at the track not something that was just offered off-shore.

I know you are just betting that one horse will beat another horse regardless of what position they finish in.

I don't have a clue on the + or - numbers someone with sports book knowledge I am sure will chime in soon

[Jeff P]

Pinnacle has been offering them Wed thru Sun for quite a while now. I've been playing them since about June 04.

The numbers relate to the payoff being offered for either side to win the matchup.

Side A +120
Mutiply the amount risked by 1.20 and add the amount of your bet to arrive at your payoff. Example: Risk $100.00 at +120 to win $120.00. If you wn the matchup, your payoff is $220.00 calculated as follows:
Payoff = 100 X 1.2 + 100
Payoff = $220.00

Side B -110
Divide the amount risked by 1.10 and add the amount of your bet to arrive at your payoff. Example: Risk $100.00 at -110 to win $90.91. If you win the matchup, your payoff is $190.91 calculated as follows:
Payoff= 100 /1.10 + 100
Payoff = $190.91

I love these type of bets. It's fun to match wits with the linesmaker at Pinnacle who is actually pretty good. And unlike traditional WPS bets, you can still win the bet if your horse runs poorly and finshes 7th so long as your competition finishes even worse.

One thing to keep in mind: When you place your bet matters almost as much as which side you take. The line being offered moves as money comes in. When you bet, unlike parimutuel odds, your price is locked in. It's not uncommon to see one side move 30-40 points. So if you like one side over the other, check the money line being offered frequently. If you have some patience and time it right, you can sometimes get something like +125 on a horse that was -108 a few hours earlier.

[trying2win]

Jeff,

Thanks for the explanation of how the match up bet works. Your description made it very clear and understandable.

Regards,

T2W

[Valuist]

Some interesting matchups offered tomorrow:

FG 7th- Enduring Will -176 The Beter Man Can +161 these two finished a neck apart in last. I think the relatively big number has to do with the odds in their last race as EW was higher regarded. But, these are lightly raced horses. Plus 161 is VERY tempting

FG 8th--Alumni Hall -120/Colonial Colony +110. These two finished 3/4 apart in last although AH was aided by the soft pace.. He's never Beyered 100 so he's shaky as a favorite here

GP 10th Snowdrops -118/High Court +108 IMO another very live dog here.

[cj]

So Valuist, in your example, does this mean you have to bet 120 to win 100 if you take Alumni Hall, and bet 100 to win 110 on Colonial Colony? If I have that right, some of these are interesting.

[penguinfan]

You have it exactly right CJ, it is just like betting on baseball.

[BIG RED]

Sometimes you can get some fair prices doing it this way. I always check to see if they have gulf or S anita in a.m.. The first time I tried this wager with pinny, months ago, my horse finished second last. Guess who finished last :D

[cj]

I know I sure liked the Breeder's Cup H2H bets, Film Maker was my 2nd choice behind Ouija Board in the FM Turf, but was the longest price (2-1) in a three horse H2H bet against two horses I didn't like. I think you have to pick your spots, but I'm going to pay more attention to these Pinnacle match-up bets. I doubt I'd ever bet the favorite.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I doubt I'd ever bet the favorite.
If Ghostzapper was -180 vs. Colonial Colony, I'd probably pass too.

[cj]

If they offer lines like that, they won't be in business much longer. That is why I said "doubt" oh master of the obvious.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

If they offer lines like that, they won't be in business much longer. That is why I said "doubt" oh master of the obvious.

There are a lot of favorites with value because "the herd" is also scared to lay the price.

Just today for instance, I think Sharp Lisa should beat Hot Attraction 80 out of 100 times. The line for her should be -400. Because most people are scared to lay that much (that is why Pinnacle stays in business), she is hovering just above -200. I layed a bunch of numbers between -170 and -210. Win or lose, IMO I'm getting much the best of it.

If they made the line at -400, they would get all action on the dog as the public/herd never lays prices like that.

If you think that betting favorites isn't lucrative, based on my estimation of Sharp Lisa winning 80 out of 100, if I bet to win $2000 on her at -200 100 times, this would be my profit.............

80 times I win $2000--------+160,000

20 times I lose $4000------ -80,000

profit--------------------- +80,000

If you want to argue my estimation of 80-20 Lisa winning, go ahead, but you are the master of the herd when you "doubt you'd ever bet the favorite". I personally thank you for leading the herd with this brilliant mentality.

[cj]

If I play match ups, it won't be betting the favorite because I don't like risking a lot to win a little. That's why I bet racing in the first place.

I never claimed to be an expert on match ups, that is why I'm asking questions in the first place. I've only played a few H2H bets on BC Day.

At least after all your comments we finally got a selection from you, even if it is a 1-2 shot.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

At least after all your comments we finally got a selection from you, even if it is a 1-2 shot.
I guess you still don't get it. This is not a selection. It is just one of the many ways to attempt to extract money from the game. I don't like Sharp Lisa......would never bet on her at the price I think she will go off at in the race, but in this match-up scenario, I think there is value so I will pounce knowing that I have confidence that I am getting much the best of it over the duration of these plays.

I love betting value. Value can be risking a lot to win a little or risking a little to win a lot. You obviously have some kind of block that doesn't let you adapt to finding complete value scenarios.

Every time a casino spins the roulette wheel they are risking a lot to win a little. I think they find value in every spin cause they seem to end up getting the money over the duration. Same thing applies here. If you owned a casino, would you eliminate roulette tables?

[freeneasy]

so if "lisa" were to find herself in the same race, same senario, samr exact situation for the next 100 races as she is in today, your saying she would win 80 out of 100 times. and your simulating how she will preform today by how well she will preform in the next 99 races from today? well by that time she'll be running in races carded for 12yo and up that are living in assisted home care facilities. you otta write a book and call it handicapping by fanticidical imagination :D

[cj]

The difference here is there is a $200 limit, and I'm not betting at 1-2 no matter how much value I may think there is in the race.

And I did get it, you are selecting Sharp Lisa to win the matchup, which will pay 1-2 or so. I'm not interested in that, sorry.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

F+E,

You are a beauty! I guess the entire rule of logic goes out the window with you.

cj,

They take $500 per bet with unlimited rebets after they move the line 6 cents....sometimes the limit is higher.

They only hang up about 80 match-ups a week. If you are comatose, you should be able to find 10 you think you have an edge on. An alert person will find 30 or so.

[cj]

I see one $500 max, but the rest of the t-breds are all $200. Also, what does move the line 6 cents mean, serious question? I thought it was all based on $100.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

The day before they are $200. They switch to $500 (or more) the night before or early morning the day of race.

If the line on the horse you like is -105 and you bet $500, the line automatically goes to -111 and then you can bet another $500 and it will move to -117 and you can repeat process until you still feel there is value. Obviously sometimes even though you think there is value left, you might want to wait as there is usually a leveling point where others players will bet the dog and lower the line for you.

[Niko]

I like head to head matches in big stakes races where there's too much incentive not to run your best. But, as has been pointed out in other threads and the incident with Fallon overseas, it's too easy for the connections to stiff a horse and bet the other side.