Eclipse results - opinions

[cj]

Here are mine:

Horse or the Year:
Ghostzapper. I probably would have chosen Smarty Jones, but no argument with Ghostzapper either.

2yo Male:
Declan's Moon. No way, I don't buy this horse at all. I'd have voted for Rockport Harbor.

2yo Female:
Sweet Catomine. A virtual walkover.

3yo Male:
Smarty Jones. A no brainer.

3yo Female:
Ashado. BC win, Oaks winner a cinch.

Older Male:
Ghostzapper. No contest

Older Female:
Azeri. I think she did the most. Sightseek only won at Belmont. Edge Azeri.

Sprinter:
Speightstown. I lot of people picked Pico Central, but I'd lean Speightstown. Bad choice to run in the NYRA Mile.

Turf Horse:
Kitten's Joy. A deserving champ.

Female Turf Horse
Ouija Board. No contest.

Steeplechase Horse:
Hirapour. What's a steeplechase?

Owner:
Kenneth and Sarah Ramsey. I'd have went with Someday Farm, because they haven't been fined for bribery or had one of their dead horse's legs amputated by a vet, but hey, that's just me.

Trainer:
Todd Pletcher. Nice call, Asmussen needs better stock. I don't think we should reward claiming trainers until they win on the big stage.

Jockey:
John Velazquez. No problems here.

Apprentice Jockey:
Brian Hernandez. I'd have chosen Fragoso, I think he's a much better rider and on a much tougher circuit.

[TOOZ]

Ramsey was on the local morning Saratoga show many times and the guy is a breath of fresh air, no matter how arrogant he is. He actually told the host to bet one of his first timers that won. If he told that trainer, if he scratched his horse, he would give him a few to train, I wonder if we would have heard anything about the incident.

[Tee]

I guess Awesome Again should have been HOY as well.

Nuff said for now.

[cj]

tee,

Like I said, I'd have picked Smarty, but I think they were pretty close. I definitely did think Awesome Again was Horse of the Year, undefeated, won the BC Classic, beat Silver Charm if I remember right, not sure what else he could have done. To be fair, I don't remember who the competition was that year for the award, enlighten me. Real Quiet maybe?

[Tee]

Skip Away was really the only competition for the HOY award in 1998, his race record for the year was hard to beat.

Skip Away
At 5:

1st:
Donn Handicap (Gr I), 2-7-98, 1 1/4 miles, defeating Unruled, Sir Bear, etc.
Gulfstream Park H (Gr I), 2-28-98, 1 1/4 miles, defeating Unruled, Behrens, etc.
Pimlico Special (Gr I), 5-9-98, 1 3/16 miles, defeating Precocity, Hot Brush, etc.
Massachusetts H (Gr III), 5-30-98, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Puerto Madero, K.J.'s Appeal, etc.
Hollywood Gold Cup (Gr I), 6-28-98, 1 1/4 miles, defeating Puerto Madero, Gentlemen, etc.
Iselin (Gr II), 8-30-98, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Stormin' Fever, Testafly, etc.
Woodward (Gr I), 9-19-98, 1 1/8 miles, defeating Gentlemen, Running Stag, etc.
3rd:
Jockey Club Gold Cup (Gr I), 10-10-98, 1 1/4 miles, to Wagon Limit and Gentlemen.
OTB:
Breeders' Cup Classic (Gr I), 11-7-98, 1 1/4 miles, to Awesome Again, Silver Charm, and Swain.

IMHO the racing year of Smarty Jones compares more to Skip Away than does that of Ghostzapper & for that matter Awesome Again.

But hey that's just me :)

[Doc]

I have a big problem with European horses coming here, winning a Breeders' Cup race, and then being voted an Eclipse. This is the first year I didn't vote IN PROTEST over such horses, and wouldn't you know Ouija Board gets the nod. :mad:

[Suff]

imho... Gill shoulda got Top Owner.

But I really thought Ghost Zapper deserved HOY so I'm pleased with that. And the Margin of Victory with Voters was impressive. I Know it was Lone Star and I know he was on the rail... But that effort was Jaw Dropping and coupled with the entire year.. he was the deserving champ.

I was shocked Fragaso did'nt get Apprentice Honors. I'm wondering whats behind that Vote. Do People not understand how difficult it is to WIN in NY...and the competition is so much better than what hernandez faces. Baffling choice. imo.

I thought Rasmussems record Breaking year made him deserving... regardless of his stocks Class. Its harder to win with that level IMHO... and Pletcher's phone rings off the hook with the Most promising yearlings and 2YO's in the world... so I thought Rasmussen "Earned" the Eclispse. But I can Live with Pletcher. he does amazing things as well. NO Big fuss


Regarding Skip Aways 5 Yo Campaign... not only did he romp. He spotted Huge Weight to many horses. He carried 130 pounds almost every time he went.

[Valuist]

Velazquez is very good but he gets a TON of live mounts from Pletcher. I'd have put either of the Peruvians ahead of him. Prado won a lot of big races and Bejarano won 5 different meetings (no they weren't all "small circuit" meets). Maybe I'm crazy but I'd have taken Afleet Alex for Juvie champ. IMO he was the best horse in both the Champagne and BC. Did Charles Cella finally quit talking? Fragoso may face a tougher meet than Hernandez when Bel and Saratoga are running but not now. The FG is a better quality meet than the inner dirt.
Anyone else feel the awkward tension when Priscilla Hojwala was interviewing Stronach?

[46zilzal]

zapper's Woodward was a race for the ages....haven't seen one that impressive for some time....Hooray Speightstown........a lesson in DUCKING the big dance.

[saratoga guy]

HOTY: Let's face it -- they were two less than perfect choices, one done by June, the other not starting until June. One only facing 3YOs, the other only racing four times.

2YO Male: It would have been hard for Rockport Harbor to win with only a MSW, NW1, G3 and G2 on his resume. Undefeated is nice, but in a "undefeated toss-up" the guy with the G1 wins. The real contender here was Afleet Alex -- but his connections really needed to step up and plead his case before the Hollywood Futurity. Instead they sat back and in the lead-up to that race pretty much everything that was written said that if Declan's Moon, Wilko, or Proud Accolade won that race the Eclipse would be their's. So when it happened voter's didn't even have to really digest that Afleet Alex might have had the better record.

Older Female: I was happy with the result. It was a toss-up between Azeri and Sightseek -- but we fans are always crying when the champs retire too soon. In this case there was crying and hand-wringing when Paulson brought Azeri back! So I was gald to see he got rewarded for giving the champ a solid 6YO campaign (although if it was me I might have found an easier spot to try the boys).

Sprinter: The category was billed as a toss-up and both candidates had something in their favor. I probably would have given the edge to Pico -- but there's nothing wrong with the winner.

Female Turf Horse: Like another poster in this thread -- I'm not a fan of a horse winning an Eclipse based on one N American start. Maybe it's time for a rule change.

Owner: Ramseys. Good choice. Somebody has to explain to me how what Ken Ramsey did could be used for nefarious purposes. Certainly it has the perception of playing around and therefore needs to be policed because perception is important in this sport -- but in reality I have to struggle to come up with a scenario where this type of thing could be used for "bad" purposes.

Trainer: Ouch! Asmussen was Hank Aaron chasing Babe Ruth this year. An amazing accomplishment -- but he had the misfortune to do it in 2004, the year Pletcher put together perhaps slightly more impressive overall stats. But just slightly.

Apprentice jock: Hernandez was a good choice. Fragoso lost his bug in April and it would be hard for voters to compare a third of a year against Hernandez. Fragoso was third in the voting in 2003 -- and maybe he just had the poor fortune to be on an akward time schedule with his apprentice allowance.

[Valuist]

Sar Guy-

Good point about the filly/mare turfers. How can you give the award to a horse who's run once in North America? It's Horse of the YEAR, not DAY.

I wasn't aware it had been that long since Fragoso lost the bug. Its not even close then. BHern is a deserving winner.

[Buddha]

Good point about the filly/mare turfers. How can you give the award to a horse who's run once in North America? It's Horse of the YEAR, not DAY.



Since when were the Eclipse Awards just about N. American runners? I thought they were for the best horses. Also, Ouija Boards wins in the Euro races, and the game race in the Arc don't qualify here for an outstanding horse?

[Valuist]

Then how come Bago wasn't voted top turfer? To my knowledge, its never been that way. If you don't run in North America, forget it, you're off the map. And one race? In reality, its not much better but I guess the voters don't see it that way.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I guess Gill is only a claiming owner.
Where are the winners based? East I'm sure.

[Valuist]

The Ramseys race mostly in Kentucky but also some in Florida and New York.

[Figman]

Suff,
I'm with you, Fragoso is one of the better riders not just apprentice jockeys to come down the pike in recent years. I got a real laugh out of the Saturday morning Capital OTB show in the Saratoga area, where the host, who is a registered Eclipse voter, displayed his Eclipse picks for the television audience and didn't vote for Fragoso. Why? He hadn't seen the other apprentice jockey nominees ride! What a poor excuse.

[delayjf]

I would have voted SJ the HOY because I feel that what he accomplised in the triple crown was more note worth than what Ghostzappers did. That's not to say that SJ was a better horse, just that what he did do was more impressive to me.

I can't really argue with anyone who prefers GZ here, but the eclipse doesn't always go to the "best horse". Perhaps I'm wrong, but does anyone think Secretariat was the "best horse" as a two year old??? :confused:

[46zilzal]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but does anyone think Secretariat was the "best horse" as a two year old??? :


By a country MILE and a half....but then he was a COLT not a horse!!

[Tom]

When the players get to vote, the awards will mean something. Until then, I know who I am impressed with and who I am not, and could give a shot who wins what. Maybe they should take bets on the thing.

[BillW]

I heard the margin of vote for HOY was close to 2:1 - surprising. Also Larry King??? - I loved his "Breeders Club". Sheesh - get Paris Hilton if you are really desperate :eek:.

[toetoe]

Is Priscilla the gal from TVG? I am so hot for her. I want us to be fat folks. I want to be her dog, just as Joan Jett wanted to be mine. I want to steam up the Chevy's windows at the drive-in with Priscilla. I want ... well, you know. If that's not her, well .. never mind.

[tholl]

I think that everyone who votes should have their reasoning published. That way we might find out how somebody justifies voting for: Roman Ruler (2yo colt), Runaway Model (2yo filly), Stellar Jayne (3yo filly), Roses In May (older male), Adoration (older female), Lucifers Stone and Megahertz (female turf), Robert Bone, Bob/Bev Lewis and Louis O'Brien (owner). (to name a few)

[delayjf]

By a country MILE and a half....but then he was a COLT not a horse!!

46zilzal
Just so I understand you, you're stating that Secretartiat could have defeated the older handicap horses/colts as a two year old????? Perhaps he could, does anybody know what kind of speed figures he earned as a two year old and how they stacked up to that same years handicap division's speed figurers. Riva Ridge (1 year older than Sec) almost won the TC, and in fact may have had it not been for a wet Pimlico track. How did those two compare at the time?? Could Big Red have won the TC as a two year old. :confused:

[toetoe]

In 1972, while Riva Ridge was on his way to CRUSHING (Sorry, Vic S.) in two jewels of the Crown, talk was bandied about of a match race between 2yo Secretariat and handicapper Autobiography. Autobiography was no slouch, but nor was he a Hall-Of-Famer.
Riva Ridge lost the 3yo title to Key To The Mint, who didn't win the Preakness either (that went to Bee Bee Bee). Later in the year Riva Ridge lost to Secretariat himself, I think at least twice.

[toetoe]

46 zigzag,
You are a very nice person, but your post is crapola. How is going as soon as possible to N.Y. for Gr. 1 races, not readily available anywhere else (around one turn, I mean), ducking the big ones? Another peeve -- Pico C. gets disqualified by some because ".. well, a mile is not really a sprint. Sorry." Then they say he failed on his big day, implying he would get the award if he won the Cigar. Don't know when the Vosburgh shortened to 6f., but that day it looked like he was widening and at the former distance, 7f., who knows? The fact remains that after 21 runnings, the B.C. Sprint is not guaranteed to draw a world-class field. The Vosburgh wasn't the greatest this year, even with the future Eclipse winner, but traditionally it gets good horses ... and I don't mean Clock Stopper, Champali, Beau's Town, Chindi, etc.

[BillW]

In 1972, while Riva Ridge was on his way to CRUSHING (Sorry, Vic S.) in two jewels of the Crown, talk was bandied about of a match race between 2yo Secretariat and handicapper Autobiography. Autobiography was no slouch, but nor was he a Hall-Of-Famer.
Riva Ridge lost the 3yo title to Key To The Mint, who didn't win the Preakness either (that went to Bee Bee Bee). Later in the year Riva Ridge lost to Secretariat himself, I think at least twice.

The first (and only) time Riva Ridge ran against and lost to Secretariat was 9/15/73 @ 1 1/8 by 3 1/2 lengths. Big Red ran against 2YO's only in '72.

[toetoe]

My apologies for looking such a FOOL. What I should say was "later" and not "later that year."

[delayjf]

Maybe we could get Beyer to weigh in on the 2 year old Secretariat vs Older horses issue, he was making figures back then. Not that speed figures are the definative answer, but how else might one make a comparison?

[takeout]

Call the cops. Smarty got robbed.

[Buckeye]

Yeah. He got robbed allright.

He's got the cash and the girls.

Go Smarty.

[toetoe]

Delay,
I do recall reading in a Beyer tome that his fig for Secretariat in the Belmont Stakes was 148. My only problem is that Ruritania, Warbucks, whoever else beside Sham then get Beyers of 110 or so.

[delayjf]

I agree with your accessment of the Belmont figures, but given the distance, I would put much faith in their predictive value at shorter distances.

But remember at the Belmont Sec was a three year old and in his prime, as we knew him. He did defeat good older horses later as a three year old including Riva Ridge and Key to the Mint. I'm still 60 -40 that he could not have beaten the same caliber of Horses as a two year old, as great as he was.

[Suff]

http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13823946&BRD=1169&PAG=740&dept_id=349537&rfi=6



Results of the Eclipse Awards for 2005 reflect the quality of racing at Saratoga Race Course in 2004
The Eclipse Awards, begun in 1971, represent voting for national thoroughbred champions in various divisions.

Horses that raced at the Spa were finalists in eight of the 11 divisions, with three of them getting an award.

Speightstown, who won the A.G. Vanderbilt Handicap; Azeri, who won the Go For Wand Handicap, and Ashado, who placed in the Alabama Stakes, all won national championships.

Speightstown won as champion sprinter, Azeri as champion older female, and Ashado as champion 3-year-old female.

Other finalists that raced here last summer were Hopeful Stakes winner Afleet Alex; Travers Stakes winner Birdstone; Whitney Handicap winner Roses in May; Go For Wand participants Sightseek and Storm Flag Flying; and Sword Dancer winner Better Talk Now.

It was a bit of a surprise to me that Whitney Handicap winner Roses in May finished behind Pleasantly Perfect in the voting for champion older male, a title won by Horse of the Year Ghostzapper.

Roses in May won five of six starts, and was four lengths better than Pleasantly Perfect in the Breeders' Cup Classic, the only time they faced each other.

Pleasantly Perfect, in an abbreviated campaign, won three of five starts, winning the Grade I Dubai World Cup and Grade I Pacific Classic.

It was a big surprise to me that Speightstown defeated Pico Central in the sprint category.

In their only meeting, Speightstown finished third to Pico Central in the Grade I Vosburgh Handicap.

[keenang]

I AM A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT SMARTY DID NOT WIN HOY IN LITE OF WHAT HE DID IN THE TRIPLE CROWN RACES. 2 WINS, 1 SECOND. DO YOU THINK GZ WOULD HAVE WON IF SMARTY WOULD HAVE WON THE TRIPLE CROWN? THE MARGIN OF VOTES ,I THOUGHT WAS WAY OFF BASE.
GENE

[Suff]

I finally caughta piece that shared my thoughts in Ramsay accepting the Eclipse award a few days after he drags the business to a new low.




http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/110734039871220.xml


Horse owner Ken Ramsey, who parlayed his real estate millions into cellular phone multi-millions, did a very stupid thing on New Year's Eve. He tried to bribe another owner. Then he did an even dumber thing Jan. 24. He accepted the Eclipse Award as North America's outstanding owner for 2004.

Two weeks before he walked to the podium of a Beverly Hills hotel to accept his trophy, Ramsey was fined $25,000 and suspended seven days for violating the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority's code of ethics.

On New Year's Eve, in attempt to give his stallion Catienus a shot at another winner and thus the rookie-of-the-year title, Ramsey called owner-trainer Barbara Conner and offered her money to scratch her horse from the first race at Turfway Park, so his horse, stuck on the also-eligible list, could get in and run.

This was one of the worse jobs of handicapping a rival owner in the history of organized racing. Not only did Conner said no, she turned Ramsey over to the stewards. Ms. Conner is a former nun. "When something like this happens, the owner is hurt," Conner told the Daily Racing Form. "The trainer is hurt, the rider is hurt. But the biggest loser is the industry."

No matter, there was Ramsey last week, jumping to his feet, thrusting his arms in the air, and accepting the Eclipse Award.
"My parents taught me a man's good name is more important than fame or riches," he said. "My recent action tarnished my good name and the good name of horse racing. I ask you please to forgive me."

Of course, he's forgiven. Everybody makes mistakes, but that doesn't mean Ramsey should have taken home the trophy. By doing so, he made his mistake look even worse. Are we now in the business of accepting honors after we embarrass the industry we say we love? Is this another of those "I just want to put this behind me" situations?

[Pace Cap'n]

This being the same Mr. Ramsey who was overheard colluding with Mr. Frankel at the Breeder's Cup when they were discussing how they could be assured of a 1-2 finish if a certain pace scenario evolved.