Belmont Park is adding a synthetic track for 2024 meet

[Andy Asaro]

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/status/1636101475851202560

[Cutter14]

It's hard enough to beat this game and is one reason I don't bet Gulfstream anymore

[Michael]

https://cdn.bloodhorse.com/daily-app/pdfs/BloodHorseDaily-20230315.pdf?c=-2037000053

Interesting NYRA article on page 4 of today's Blood Horse Daily pdf.
They're trying to keep the AQU with future stipulations... something along the lines of affordable housing agreements baked into any future real estate development.

More or less, politicians being politicans... There's without a question speed bumps in the future.

[$w1fT]

Do horseplayers want this and will be eager to bet it? None that I talk to.

Have the NY horseman been clamoring for this? I genuinely don’t know the answer to this. I know the Kentucky horsemen will keep their horses at Turfway for the winter and i still see the top NY turf trainers shipping their horses to FLA for the winter.

Do the politicians and activists insist on a synthetic surface? I’m sure they did although I can’t confirm.

Will NYRA will go the way of gulfstream and say they’ll only card these races in the spring/fall in off the turf scenarios and then reverse course? We’ll see.

[cj]

Yuck.

[kyle r]

Do horseplayers want this and will be eager to bet it? None that I talk to.

Have the NY horseman been clamoring for this? I genuinely don’t know the answers to this.

Do the politicians and activists insist on a synthetic surface? I’m sure they did although I can’t confirm.

Will NYRA will go the way of gulfstream and say they’ll only card these races in the spring/fall in off the turf scenarios and then reverse course? We’ll see.

No one despises NYRA more than me. But this is an EXTRA track. They can train on it; they can use it for off the turf; and they can card the odd race. I get Gulfstream synth is somewhat funky and has been overused, but if you hate synth - and I don’t - I don’t think you have to worry.

[Tom]

Jessica is sounding better every day.

[the little guy]

It's for off the turf races ( to preserve field size ) and to be used along with dirt in the Winter only.

[kyle r]

[QUOTE=kyle r;2864276] But this is an EXTRA track. They can train on it; they can use it for off the turf; and they can card the odd race.

And of course, use it for winter racing, which means cheaper turf horses get to race more.

[46zilzal]

the Woodbine experience (holding up in all weather and a decrease in catastrophic breakdowns) I suggest went a long way toward this decision...GGF and Presque Isle as well.

One thing it takes getting used to is how QUIET it is.

[46zilzal]

It's hard enough to beat this game and is one reason I don't bet Gulfstream anymore

It never changed a thing when Woodbine shifted from the crappy/dirty Polytrack and it has MADE NO DIFFERENCE...I won their first race on Tapeta.

[Bustin Stones]

I'm in favor of whatever keeps everyone safe if that's the reason. But, for the uninitiated, is there a reason why running on the dirt in cold or wet weather in winter is less safe than artificial?

[PhantomOnTour]

https://youtu.be/XWRB8_Cr3KY


:faint:

[classhandicapper]

What do they say about "good intentions"?

We don't know yet what the demand, field sizes, and handle will be like once it's all in place. But I can envision a scenario where the business dictates running some synth races in the spring/summer/fall in good weather because trainers have some horses that prefer it or adding a few synth races fills the races better or there's been a lot of rain recently and the synth handled it better or some things I'm not smart enough to think of.

If that's what happens it makes for more complex handicapping.

There will be a few extra surface switches.

It makes bias determination even tougher because there could be some days with a few races on dirt, 1-2 on synth, and a couple each on the inner and outer turf.

Figure makers will also have a tougher time.

I guess that's all fine if you like betting synth, want the added complexity, or are a horseman that wants the extra option, but I think some people are not going to like it and not bet on it, especially if they don't stick to the plan of just off the turf for the non winter months.

[Tom]

the Woodbine experience (holding up in all weather and a decrease in catastrophic breakdowns) I suggest went a long way toward this decision...GGF and Presque Isle as well.

One thing it takes getting used to is how QUIET it is.

It will be very quiet on my TV! :lol:

[the little guy]

There are so many things to love about internet message boards, but little more than the usual people with absolutely no information offering their completely uneducated opinions about what they think we WILL do in the future. Not only is it worthless, it’s almost always universally wrong.

[classhandicapper]

There are so many things to love about internet message boards, but little more than the usual people with absolutely no information offering their completely uneducated opinions about what they think we WILL do in the future. Not only is it worthless, it’s almost always universally wrong.

So you are 100% sure that even if there is demand for occasional synth races from owners/trainers during the spring/summer/fall as they learn their horses prefer it and assuming the economics are OK, NYRA is not going to run synth races except during the winter and off the turf?

Somehow, I think demand and economics are likely to win, but I'd prefer you are right.

I can tell you with 100% certainly that if a horse I own a piece of wins a synth race in winter or off the turf and looks good doing it, the first thing I'm going to do is ask the trainer about is synth races in the spring/summer/fall. I can't be the only one with common sense.

[wisconsin]

Jessica is sounding better every day.

But the takeout rates...

[Cutter14]

I happen to love Belmont the way it is--I'm not opposed to change but if it is not broken why fix it--can someone tell me what's wrong with the racing that goes on at Belmont as it is

[the little guy]

I happen to love Belmont the way it is--I'm not opposed to change but if it is not broken why fix it--can someone tell me what's wrong with the racing that goes on at Belmont as it is

What is being changed other than trying to keep larger field sizes if races get rained off the turf? Are you opposed to larger fields?

[Cutter14]

What is being changed other than trying to keep larger field sizes if races get rained off the turf? Are you opposed to larger fields?

I am not opposed to larger fields and I'm not able to predict the future like so many here but I will be willing to bet that this new surface will NOT be used for strictly off the turf races all the time

[Johnny V]

I don't like the idea of any synthetic tracks and I avoid betting on all synthetic surface tracks.

[classhandicapper]

I don't like the idea of any synthetic tracks and I avoid betting on all synthetic surface tracks.

I'm the same, but this is not quite that.

As I said earlier, adding an extra surface means more surface switches, potentially tougher bias determination, and tougher figure making. Some people might like the added complexity. I'm not among them.

[the little guy]

I am not opposed to larger fields and I'm not able to predict the future like so many here but I will be willing to bet that this new surface will NOT be used for strictly off the turf races all the time

Nobody said it would be. It’s going to be used along with dirt in the Winter.

Or are you predicting the future despite what you said?

[Cutter14]

Nobody said it would be. It’s going to be used along with dirt in the Winter.

Or are you predicting the future despite what you said?

no I'm not predicting the future--are they doing this in the hopes of keeping some of the bigger stables here year round?

[Profesor]

Hopefully the people who run NYRA will come to their senses and scrap the plan for a fake track,but if they go ahead and install one I hope they only use it for off the turf races, if they go the Gulfstream route and card races on Tapeta they will ruin the best circuit in the country,the championship meet at Gulfstream is now known as The ChampionSHIT meet and handle has been down 20 to 30% since they started to card races on Tapeta
The majority of horseplayers hate synthetic tracks,and they show it w/ their money
Hopefully NYRA remembers the synthetic tracks and their fate at S.A, KEENLAND and DEL MAR

[the little guy]

no I'm not predicting the future--are they doing this in the hopes of keeping some of the bigger stables here year round?

Many of the bigger stables do stay here year round, at least partially. Adding synth in Winter will hopefully attract a bigger horse population and ultimately help field size. Only time will tell. It won’t be an issue for at least three years.

[Profesor]

I am not opposed to larger fields and I'm not able to predict the future like so many here but I will be willing to bet that this new surface will NOT be used for strictly off the turf races all the time


They said they same thing when they installed the Tapeta at Gulfstream ( only to be used for off the turf races) and then they started to card
races on Tapeta, and ruined their meet,you can be sure NYRA will card Tapeta races thank God sports betting is legal now

[Profesor]

It's for off the turf races ( to preserve field size ) and to be used along with dirt in the Winter only.

I would rather bet a 4 horse field than try to figure out which horse is gonna like running on cut up tires

[Bustin Stones]

Why are we opposed to allowing horses to run on tapeta if they prefer to run on it? That field sizes will increase indicates they do prefer it. Much has been written in these forums about the demise of winter racing and the pitiful size of the fields. If field size improves due to the opportunity to race on it, what sense does it make to deny horses that opportunity? Why would we rather the horses stand in stall than race?

[classhandicapper]

I just spoke to the general partner of the partnership I occasionally buy horses through. Our trainer has horses training on the pony track at Belmont that is already synthetic. He loves it.

There's two way to view that.

The good news is that assuming they use the same material on the inner track, it got a very good review from someone I trust.

The bad news is if he loves training on it, he's not going to mind if they card more races on it so he can run on it too. But there I go predicting again. :lol:

[Sheffwed]

Many of the bigger stables do stay here year round, at least partially. Adding synth in Winter will hopefully attract a bigger horse population and ultimately help field size. Only time will tell. It won’t be an issue for at least three years.

Belmont is only 2.5 hours (without traffic) from Fair Hill, a lot of top trainers based there (many good ones, not the types we see in winter usually) will be very happy to have Tapeta racing, I hope they are being consulted - that figures to help

The popularity of Turfway must be obvious to all, weird as their racing is, and Woodbine does well also

My concern is will NYRA now destroy the beautiful Belmont infield? The arena and related construction has already completely ruined the backyard, the place does not feel right, granted of course it is a work in progress

Hopefully NYRA brings in someone with some design skills if the deal happens, certainly the work at the Spa has been decent, so there is some hope, and hopefully there will finally be some funds, now who to decide how they are spent and under what process

[Light]

It's been torrential rain here in the bay area and I was a little hesitant playing GG's Tapeta under those extreme conditions last weekend. But it's held out very well. There was no bias such as develops on wet tracks,no bizarre results. Fair and formful. I just missed the Pk6 playing it like it was a "fast" track. It's the wet dirt tracks that scare me off from playing. Those tracks really require the additional work of who likes it wet and who doesn't. Not so Tapeta, even in the rain.

[Richie]

Belmont is only 2.5 hours (without traffic) from Fair Hill, a lot of top trainers based there (many good ones, not the types we see in winter usually) will be very happy to have Tapeta racing, I hope they are being consulted - that figures to help

The popularity of Turfway must be obvious to all, weird as their racing is, and Woodbine does well also

My concern is will NYRA now destroy the beautiful Belmont infield? The arena and related construction has already completely ruined the backyard, the place does not feel right, granted of course it is a work in progress

Hopefully NYRA brings in someone with some design skills if the deal happens, certainly the work at the Spa has been decent, so there is some hope, and hopefully there will finally be some funds, now who to decide how they are spent and under what process

i have been going to belmont since 1973, every year multiple times a year with my kids and family, hundreds of times.

when i saw the belmont backyard last year, it was a major disappointment, my son loved the new look, i hated it. I don't mind change at all, but that picnic ground was cold

[acorn54]

one has to project on the future when it comes to loaning money to the belmont racetrack project. i have heard that new york taxpayers ( i am one of them), are going to make a LONE of 450 million dollars for the project. my question is, are they going to be able to pay back the new york taxpayers, or are we going to be left holding the bag?

[ScottJ]

one has to project on the future when it comes to loaning money to the belmont racetrack project. i have heard that new york taxpayers ( i am one of them), are going to make a LONE of 450 million dollars for the project. my question is, are they going to be able to pay back the new york taxpayers, or are we going to be left holding the bag?A fair question, but does anyone actually read articles on the subject?

The LOAN of $450M would allow for the reconstruction of Belmont's grandstand (which is now 50+ years old), reconfigure the backyard/green space (post UBS Arena construction), and other development considerations. In exchange racing will cease at some point at Aqueduct. The repayment plan calls for approximately $25M per year from NYRA to service the debt.

This asks you to think about two points.

[1] Do you think that NYRA/Belmont Park will just disappear?

[2] What do you think happens with the land at Aqueduct?

[ScottJ]

i have been going to belmont since 1973, every year multiple times a year with my kids and family, hundreds of times.

when i saw the belmont backyard last year, it was a major disappointment, my son loved the new look, i hated it. I don't mind change at all, but that picnic ground was coldSo you remember the Sunday afternoon concerts when 40,000+ would attend early for regular Belmont admission however it would be $10+ after 5:00pm or such? The Belmont Backyard was a spectacle back then in 1973, but that image will never be the same. Instead, the reconstuction project holds the promise of something new with perhaps the upper stretch grandstand space becoming the new "backyard" in time.

[Sheffwed]

So you remember the Sunday afternoon concerts when 40,000+ would attend early for regular Belmont admission however it would be $10+ after 5:00pm or such? The Belmont Backyard was a spectacle back then in 1973, but that image will never be the same. Instead, the reconstuction project holds the promise of something new with perhaps the upper stretch grandstand space becoming the new "backyard" in time.

those concerts never did anything for racing

this vision of yours is exactly why anyone sensible who has attended Belmont racing (or the Big A) should be extremely skeptical of what NYRA would do with hundreds of millions of dollars

[acorn54]

A fair question, but does anyone actually read articles on the subject?

The LOAN of $450M would allow for the reconstruction of Belmont's grandstand (which is now 50+ years old), reconfigure the backyard/green space (post UBS Arena construction), and other development considerations. In exchange racing will cease at some point at Aqueduct. The repayment plan calls for approximately $25M per year from NYRA to service the debt.

This asks you to think about two points.

[1] Do you think that NYRA/Belmont Park will just disappear?

[2] What do you think happens with the land at Aqueduct?

scott i don't have as much confidence as you in the people of belmont promoting racing to the public. by and large the management are political appointees if what i have read is true. they don't operate on a dynamic business principal to say the least, as compared to other betting venues.

[ScottJ]

Some thoughts about the introduction of the (inner)^3 surface.

[1] If each track (dirt, outer turf, inner turf, synthetic) is 100 feet wide in the stretch (rail to rail) plus some 10 feet for intertrack drainage, the inner rail on the new synthetic service will be 440 feet from the tarmac rail. If the new grandstand is set (approximately) 160 feet from the tarmac rail, fans will be at least 600 feet from the action near a grandstand door. In an area of 60x100 properties, that is the equivalent of looking ten houses down the block to see what is happening. Further if seated in an elevated section, sightlines to the new inner track would still be an architectural challenge. (Remember that the new grandstand will likely not be as tall.)

[2] In light of [1], video board quality will be a major issue and differentiating races on infield video boards versus a wide screen in-home television will be the "experience of the races" marketing challenge among others. Please do not position such boards so that 6f, 6.5f, 7f, and 1m races start "behind" the board for many patrons. Also, make sure that the video production does not require those video boards to be seen on the television broadcast (a la Tampa Bay) while panning the backside.

[3] Off-the-turf racing has always been my favorite for identifying value in a race by bettting against good-form turf meant entries on dirt. That dynamic will change with the synthetic surface. I have personally not seen whether maintaining larger fields in turf to synthetic surface switches helps overall race handle (logically it should), but the Gulfstream blow-back seems to indicate that the handle is not as well maintained as one might expect. I would need to spend time with those numbers - and quite frankly, I do not work on Gulfstream cards. [I am admitting here that I need to do more work on these numbers. If anyone has specifics, please do share.]

[4] All of this does come back to one basic point : Does NYRA actually need year-round racing? Following the death of Roosevelt, Yonkers for many reasons became an after thought. After the death of Garden State, the Meadowlands lost its circuit concept - openings and closings of a season. Personally I have loved Aqueduct through the years, but I regret that the idea of "seasons" have been lost there. Belmont has them (at least for now) and Saratoga clearly does. If Belmont goes to 160+ days per year, will it have a natural season? Probably not. After much thought, the current Christmas closure should probably be expanded - do we need January though March on the calendar in this newly configured NYRA?

[classhandicapper]

From what I've read so far, the plans they have for the reconstruction of the grandstand, changes to the infield, and use of the land freed up by having a smaller grandstand all sound fine to me. I suspect no one is going to have a major issue with the new facility when it's done and hopefully we will all like it a lot. IMO it's the racing they have to get right.

[the little guy]

scott i don't have as much confidence as you in the people of belmont promoting racing to the public. by and large the management are political appointees if what i have read is true. they don't operate on a dynamic business principal to say the least, as compared to other betting venues.

This is ridiculous even by the standards of posting in this thread. There isn’t a single political appointment in the management of NYRA. We produce an almost daily TV show on FOX covering our races, over 1000 hours a year, but according to you we do nothing to promote our product. Nothing you have said in your posts here even borders on truth.

[ScottJ]

those concerts never did anything for racingMarketing metrics from the 1970s were very different from today's social media driven advertising business. The fact is that we have no idea whether racing fans wee generated through those concerts. At the time, the focus was on increasing the usage of the open green space and provide parallel entertainment to the races.

this vision of yours is exactly why anyone sensible who has attended Belmont racing (or the Big A) should be extremely skeptical of what NYRA would do with hundreds of millions of dollarsLet me slightly shift the discussion to the Islanders for a moment. After being virtually homeless for years due to Nassau County's inability to move forward with the Nassau Hub concept at the Coliseum, the Islanders franchise proved its resilience by finding a home at UBS Arena. Meanwhile, Nassau Coliseum is virtually abandoned while the property is now a lightning rod for the casino debate and the potential impacts on not only the Nassau Hub, but the surrounding University community.

We have the chance to leverage up on that UBS Arena investment by rebuilding another franchise, Downstate New York Racing, and expanding going forward. Will the investment yield benefits? I would argue absolutely; your skepticism is welcomed. Since the NYRA bankruptcy, my feeling is that the franchise is being run prudently and bad actors are quickly removed.

[Robert Fischer]

[3] Off-the-turf racing has always been my favorite for identifying value in a race by bettting against good-form turf meant entries on dirt. That dynamic will change with the synthetic surface. I have personally not seen whether maintaining larger fields in turf to synthetic surface switches helps overall race handle (logically it should), ...

We think alike.

There's going to be some tradeoffs there for you and I.

Will do away with those turf-dirt patsies, but it should strengthen multi-race wagers.

I don't mind the synth at Gulfstream, but as in the jackpot bets, hopefully NYRA is more quality/player friendly than Gulfstream.

From a handicapping perspective I am no expert on synth racing.
A couple of insights - I do better at postmortems than pre-race on synth. This is always the case with horseplayers of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that you must keep a watch-list for synth racing. You can get some very good bet-backs. A lot of that is flow oriented.
I've been a consistent subscriber of TimeformUS, so their pace-projector is something I consider in attempting to compare to previous vs-flow synth trips as well as handicap today's race. (Ideally you want something like a speed surviving a pace collapse or a stalker who made a good run into a merry-go-round).
Consider trainer stats. While the simulcast 'railbirds' complain that it's random racing, the truth is that just like dirt or turf, certain trainers dominate. It's often some of the same trainers who do well on dirt or turf. It may seem intuitive that synth will now be 'turf' trainers, and if the surface is primarily used for off-the-turf racing it will have some slant in that direction, but it's often the supertrainers who do well on dirt who also do well on synth.

[ScottJ]

We produce an almost daily TV show on FOX covering our races, over 1000 hours a year, but according to you we do nothing to promote our product.Apologies for not getting to this critical point sooner in the discussion as I was responding serially.

The New York Mets broadcast their games on SNY and still can bring 20,000-40,000 to the ballpark. NYRA's partnership with FOX will be a major contributing factor going forward to handle, product recognition, and educating viewers. Numerous friends of mine have again picked up the game since the pandemic due to these broadcasts. That's fighting in the trenches one-by-one for each patron. That is bare-knuckles marketing and tends to be long-term sticky with clients.

[Bustin Stones]

I'm always in favor of construction projects that can obtain financing from private sector. There's an ocean of cash at the pension funds looking to loan funds at market rates. Those rates are scaled based on the risk of default and the presence of reasonable collateral to back up the loan.
Any project bypassing private financing either is getting a better rate from taxpayers (read subsidy) or cannot back up their loan with sufficient collateral. These rules are immutable and the reason people or institutions with money continue to have money to loan.

[the little guy]

I'm always in favor of construction projects that can obtain financing from private sector. There's an ocean of cash at the pension funds looking to loan funds at market rates. Those rates are scaled based on the risk of default and the presence of reasonable collateral to back up the loan.
Any project bypassing private financing either is getting a better rate from taxpayers (read subsidy) or cannot back up their loan with sufficient collateral. These rules are immutable and the reason people or institutions with money continue to have money to loan.

I'm curious, who do you think owns the property at Belmont and will own the new structure? It's a simple question.

[Dave Schwartz]

It's for off the turf races ( to preserve field size ) and to be used along with dirt in the Winter only.

Andy,

Was that in the article?
I missed it.

[Bustin Stones]

The taxpayers own the property.

[Andy Asaro]

Andy,

Was that in the article?
I missed it.

That's what they tell the people who work there to help sell it to the public. No doubt it will be used more often than stated as time goes by.

Just another place I won't be able to gamble on.

[the little guy]

The taxpayers own the property.

No. The State owns it.

[the little guy]

That's what they tell the people who work there to help sell it to the public. No doubt it will be used more often than stated as time goes by.

Just another place I won't be able to gamble on.

As always, Andy, you know best...even from 3000 miles away. It's a gift.

[Andy Asaro]

As always, Andy, you know best...even from 3000 miles away. It's a gift.

Take a step back and look at your own personal weak way of arguing. Just pathetic. I've been around long enough to know how it goes. If you want to tow the company line then shill on

[the little guy]

Andy,

Was that in the article?
I missed it.

I read some of them yesterday, Dave, and don't recall. You could go back and check.

You're free to believe, or not, what I post.

[Bustin Stones]

So, I got pissed when the Guardians traded my favorite first baseman. I went to the ballpark and confronted the beer vendor about this.
He told me that even though he derives income from the games, he isn't in on the meetings at the front office and shouldn't be expected to have a strong opinion about anything the team does with personnel.
So, I agreed and confronted the usher. He kicked me out.

[Inner Dirt]

Synthetic tracks and I never got along.

[kyle r]

No. The State owns it.

This is correct. All within the State. Nothing without. Not even the bodies that enter.

[Sheffwed]

I'm always in favor of construction projects that can obtain financing from private sector. There's an ocean of cash at the pension funds looking to loan funds at market rates. Those rates are scaled based on the risk of default and the presence of reasonable collateral to back up the loan.
Any project bypassing private financing either is getting a better rate from taxpayers (read subsidy) or cannot back up their loan with sufficient collateral. These rules are immutable and the reason people or institutions with money continue to have money to loan.

Most pension funds don't invest in these sorts of things - they often have shortfalls (US cities and states such as NJ, CT, Ky etc)

They also have high annual return targets, not the source for these funds

[VeryOldMan]

This is correct. All within the State. Nothing without. Not even the bodies that enter.
LOL. Mussolini approved message! :)

Back to the underlying issue, though - I'm having a hard time seeing what the problem is with Belmont adding a synthetic inner track. Aqueduct sits on incredibly valuable land and Belmont is a mere handful of miles away. Doesn't it make sense for NYRA to consolidate at a single Long Island track which can offer a variety of surfaces and also have a boutique meet at Saratoga? What am I missing?

[PaceAdvantage]

What am I missing?Overarching hatred for everything NYRA & TLG?

[VeryOldMan]

Overarching hatred for everything NYRA & TLG?
LOL - yeah, everything beyond that please :)

[Profesor]

Synthetic tracks and I never got along.

You and a million other horseplayers, The Morons at NYRA will find out like S.A,KEENLAND,DEL MAR ,and now the dummies at Gulfstream have their handle is down more than 20% since they started to card races on the fake track

[classhandicapper]

Doesn't it make sense for NYRA to consolidate at a single Long Island track which can offer a variety of surfaces and also have a boutique meet at Saratoga? What am I missing?

It makes perfect economic sense for NY to consolidate. It made perfect sense years ago when some people first started saying it was inevitable and were ridiculed and told it won't happen.

To each his own on synthetic.

I'm not a fan, but I'm even less of a fan of both because it adds surface switch complexities, makes bias evaluation more difficult, and makes figure making less accurate. So the less they use it the better. All one or the other removes some of those issues.

[Inner Dirt]

As of January 2022, the following North American racetracks offer synthetic racing:


Golden Gate Fields (races on Tapeta and turf)
Gulfstream Park (races on Tapeta, dirt, and turf)
Presque Isle Downs (races exclusively on Tapeta)
Turfway Park (races exclusively on Tapeta)
Woodbine (races on Tapeta and turf)

That was from Twin Spires. I thought there were a lot more, did a lot of them switch back? I remember going to Santa Anita when they had it, the track actually stunk if you got close to it. It smelled like a combination of fresh asphalt and roofing tar.

[dilanesp]

NYRA is right on this. Belmont is gigantic, and this adds them more options especially in bad weather.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I agree. The goal of any competent racing secretary is to work with the horse population that are on the grounds and look to fill races. With the reduction in breeding which has led to smaller fields the only solution is to look to the synthetic surfaces to use for off the turf races simply for less scratches which = greater handle. It isn't pretty but adjustments have to be made to keep the game running.

[cj]

NYRA is right on this. Belmont is gigantic, and this adds them more options especially in bad weather.

Railbirds going to need high powered binoculars to see the finish line. :)

[dilanesp]

Railbirds going to need high powered binoculars to see the finish line. :)

LOL.

I love watching races live and do use binoculars, but maybe the biggest change in the racetrack experience in my life is that it used to be when you went to Santa Anita and there were 45,000 people there for a big race, the seats were filled. Now that same crowd fills the parking lots (you can see their cars) but the seats are empty because they are all downstairs watching the races on the TV's.

How many people are actually going to be outside at Belmont watching these races? Especially since they'll be using this a lot on bad weather days when they are taking races off the turf.

I think we'll all be fine. :)

[classhandicapper]

How many people are actually going to be outside at Belmont watching these races? Especially since they'll be using this a lot on bad weather days when they are taking races off the turf.



There's no magic formula, but the general profile for fairly consistent high attendance seems to be a short meet, very high quality racing, and a place some might consider a vacation destination to combine with the racing. I think Belmont attendance will more or less be the same in the new facility.

[Andy Asaro]

Pretty sure I've written more in opposition to synthetic surfaces than anyone. In 2007 when they put them in California they were a scam IMO and nobody knew what they were doing. All a big experiment and all the right people benefitted from buying and selling them.

I do think they are appropriate at some venues even though I won't bet on them. Initially I thought Gulfstream would put a synthetic surface in for the same reasons we hear the NYRA guy say here. We all know that's not what happened.

Racing is going the wrong way and no matter how much smoke they blow up your *ss about growing the game it's all about failing as slowly as possible to keep the paychecks going.

[Bustin Stones]

Racing isn't failing. It's failing in N America. If they closed it all down tomorrow we'd bet the races elsewhere. If the fools here cannot make it despite subsidies, it doesn't deserve to survive here. We all know the story about resistance to change. It happens everywhere. You need to be hungry to succeed in this world.

[the little guy]

I'm moving up....I'm now The NYRA Guy...or TNG I guess.

:)

[classhandicapper]

I do think they are appropriate at some venues even though I won't bet on them. Initially I thought Gulfstream would put a synthetic surface in for the same reasons we hear the NYRA guy say here. We all know that's not what happened.



To be fair, since I agree with you on the eventual long term outcome, the counterargument will be that Belmont has 2 turf courses that are in much better shape than GP and won't be used year round. So there's less of a reason to use the GP model of dirt/synth/turf on the same day. They will also say the surface will be maximized for winter racing and not be good for the peak summer months. I actually buy those arguments, but that's not the case I'm making for why I think they will ultimately use it more often.

I think there will inevitably be horses that like it a lot better than turf or dirt, horsemen that think it's safer, and owners and horsesmen that want to run more races on it to maximize the talents of their own horses. I suspect if there's enough demand for some extra synth races, they are going to write some in the spring and fall. Why not if owners and horsemen want it?

I've made my concern clear.

It's already sometimes difficult to figure out biases and track speed issues with a dirt track and an inner and outer turf course. Throw in some synth races and there are going to be days/periods where you have no idea how the track was playing or how fast the surface was because the sample sizes are so small and there was so many extra surface switches going into and coming out of winter, let alone if they run more.

That's a gambling concern that may or may not come to fruition.

The rest of it all makes perfect sense for NYRA.

[Bustin Stones]

I'm moving up....I'm now The NYRA Guy...or TNG I guess.

:)

Congrats on your promotion? Are there duties you are ceding to someone else in moving up?

[JohnGalt1]

Hopefully the people who run NYRA will come to their senses and scrap the plan for a fake track,but if they go ahead and install one I hope they only use it for off the turf races, if they go the Gulfstream route and card races on Tapeta they will ruin the best circuit in the country,the championship meet at Gulfstream is now known as The ChampionSHIT meet and handle has been down 20 to 30% since they started to card races on Tapeta
The majority of horseplayers hate synthetic tracks,and they show it w/ their money
Hopefully NYRA remembers the synthetic tracks and their fate at S.A, KEENLAND and DEL MAR

Those three tracks were Polytrack.

I've read the book about betting synthetic track by Bill Finley. His conclusions, if I remember correctly, is they are more similar to dirt tracks than to turf. But that more emphasis should be placed on late runners.

As to GP, after trial and error I rate 5.5 furlong races as equal to dirt sprints, make 5f races 5 ticks faster.

I make Tapeta routes one tick faster than GP dirt miles, 6 ticks faster than 1 1/16 and 8 ticks faster than 9 furlongs.

If you have difficulty with Tapeta handicap like you would for a horse going from a super fast track like Emerald Downs to a much slower tack like Hastings Park. Adjust and adapt.

[cj]

Those three tracks were Polytrack.

I've read the book about betting synthetic track by Bill Finley. His conclusions, if I remember correctly, is they are more similar to dirt tracks than to turf. But that more emphasis should be placed on late runners.

As to GP, after trial and error I rate 5.5 furlong races as equal to dirt sprints, make 5f races 5 ticks faster.

I make Tapeta routes one tick faster than GP dirt miles, 6 ticks faster than 1 1/16 and 8 ticks faster than 9 furlongs.

If you have difficulty with Tapeta handicap like you would for a horse going from a super fast track like Emerald Downs to a much slower tack like Hastings Park. Adjust and adapt.

The speed of the surface doesn't really tell you how well it plays to speed. If it did, turf would be front runner paradise as it is usually the fastest surface barring rain.

[dilanesp]

This isn't going to be a popular position but "difficulty of handicapping" doesn't strike me as something tracks should be very concerned about.

Look, the most popular betting race is the Kentucky Derby. It's also incredibly difficult- 20 horses, lightly raced, carrying weight and going a distance they have never gone before, shipping in from various tracks to a track most of them haven't run on. How many had last year's winner?

Meanwhile, 5 horse fields at Santa Anita can be incredibly easy to handicap. Which would you rather bet on?

If synthetics make handicapping harder, you can either pass the race or try to develop an edge. But it's good, not bad, that the races are difficult. (At any rate, I doubt they are any more difficult than a field of 10 first time starter 2 year olds on the turf at Del Mar during the summer.).

[affirmedny]

the Woodbine experience (holding up in all weather and a decrease in catastrophic breakdowns) I suggest went a long way toward this decision...GGF and Presque Isle as well.

One thing it takes getting used to is how QUIET it is.


GGF field sizes are pitiful, dirt was not the problem

[Sheffwed]

This isn't going to be a popular position but "difficulty of handicapping" doesn't strike me as something tracks should be very concerned about.

Look, the most popular betting race is the Kentucky Derby. It's also incredibly difficult- 20 horses, lightly raced, carrying weight and going a distance they have never gone before, shipping in from various tracks to a track most of them haven't run on. How many had last year's winner?

Meanwhile, 5 horse fields at Santa Anita can be incredibly easy to handicap. Which would you rather bet on?

If synthetics make handicapping harder, you can either pass the race or try to develop an edge. But it's good, not bad, that the races are difficult. (At any rate, I doubt they are any more difficult than a field of 10 first time starter 2 year olds on the turf at Del Mar during the summer.).

another example, the marvelous Cheltenham Festival in the UK

notoriously impossible to handicap, I've done reasonably well over the years, just finished for 2023

didn't have the best year wagering but who cares? it's fanastic

same amount of random results as Turfway

[Profesor]

Racing on synthetic surfaces is like the lottery most results make no sense why go to the track to bet the lottery when a short trip to the local 7/11=will do

[Speed Figure]

Racing on synthetic surfaces is like the lottery most results make no sense why go to the track to bet the lottery when a short trip to the local 7/11=will do
Great to hear you have dirt and turf races figured out!

[Tom]

Racing on synthetic surfaces is like the lottery most results make no sense why go to the track to bet the lottery when a short trip to the local 7/11=will do

That is a pretty bold statement.
Can you back it with facts?

Like percentage of winnimng favs, average payoff, you know, real life results.

And if fav win 30% instead of 40%, ist that good? Don't we all complain favs win all the time so there are no betting opportunities?

GP would a place to statr, the same wagring crowd, basically, has all three surfaces.......

[sjk]

I have also generally quit betting GP (after playing their races regularly for 30 years). I definitely don't play tapeta.

Playing a lot less tracks than I used to. Hate to think I will have to drop NY.

[classhandicapper]

This isn't going to be a popular position but "difficulty of handicapping" doesn't strike me as something tracks should be very concerned about.

Look, the most popular betting race is the Kentucky Derby. It's also incredibly difficult- 20 horses, lightly raced, carrying weight and going a distance they have never gone before, shipping in from various tracks to a track most of them haven't run on. How many had last year's winner?

Meanwhile, 5 horse fields at Santa Anita can be incredibly easy to handicap. Which would you rather bet on?

If synthetics make handicapping harder, you can either pass the race or try to develop an edge. But it's good, not bad, that the races are difficult. (At any rate, I doubt they are any more difficult than a field of 10 first time starter 2 year olds on the turf at Del Mar during the summer.).

The issue is not difficulty of handicapping. If a serious player is determined to understand synthetic racing better, I’m pretty sure he/she can do that.

The problem I am talking about is the accuracy of the information you have to work with when they are running some races on dirt, some on synth, and have two different turf courses all at the same track. Maybe you have to have some background with figure making and bias determination to appreciate the problems that come up with small samples of races on each surface and many of the horses switching surfaces. It won’t be nearly as bad as GP because they won’t run synth races daily except winter (hopefully), but there will be more days and periods where it’s really tough to make figures or determine bias.

[JohnGalt1]

I have also generally quit betting GP (after playing their races regularly for 30 years). I definitely don't play tapeta.

Playing a lot less tracks than I used to. Hate to think I will have to drop NY.

Pardon me, but I don't understand when someone says they won't play Tapeta track.

When you play a track like Churchill, don't you have to handicap races that were run on Tapeta?

[sjk]

I would not expect many of the Tapeta horses from GP to wind up at Churchill.
If they do I may well avoid the races in which they run like I do at Tampa.

[Thomas Roulston]

Since the Belmont Inner Turf Course measures 1 3/16 miles plus 103 feet, they can easily fit a 1 1/16-mile Tapeta track inside of it.

Then they can run 1 1/4-mile races on the Tapeta - which would be much better than those awful 1 1/4-mile dirt races that start on the turn and give the horse drawing the inside post a 10-length head start.

And because there would be a lot of 1 1/4-mile races that get taken off the turf, those races could be run at 1 1/4 miles on the Tapeta.

In addition, on a 1 1/16-mile Tapeta track, 6-furlong races could be run on it - which are impossible at even Gulfstream, whose Tapeta track is 1 mile and 70 yards.

[horses4courses]

It's for off the turf races ( to preserve field size ) and to be used along with dirt in the Winter only.

This thread caught me by surprise.
However, I knew there was a direct source posting here,
so I looked for TLG. Situation explained.

Gulfstream has been doing this for at least a couple of years now.
Makes sense for equine and rider safety, plus horizontal wagering. :ThmbUp:

[Profesor]

Great to hear you have dirt and turf races figured out!

Thanks,it took me many years but now I have it down to where my chances are better than the lottery😳

[Profesor]

This thread caught me by surprise.
However, I knew there was a direct source posting here,
so I looked for TLG. Situation explained.

Gulfstream has been doing this for at least a couple of years now.
Makes sense for equine and rider safety, plus horizontal wagering. :ThmbUp:

Wrong, Gulfstream is writing races for Tapeta some days there more races on Tapeta than dirt and turf combined that has turned their championship meet into the ChampionshiT meet and handle is way down.

[Profesor]

[QUOTE=Tom;2864851]That is a pretty bold statement.
Can you back it with facts?

Like percentage of winnimng favs, average payoff, you know, real life results.

And if fav win 30% instead of 40%, ist that good? Don't we all complain favs win all the time so there are no betting opportunities?

GP would a place to statr, the same wagring crowd, basically, has all three surfaces.......[/QUOTE

One I thing that I find out very quickly is that traditional handicapping methods don’t work on Synthetics, the best and profitable handicappers that I know gave up betting Gulfstream altogether,Jon Hardoon of the Ragozin SHEETS used to do a zoom seminar during their championship meet he gave up after 3 days I quote what he said (Tapeta makes me look stupid) and believe me he is a very bright all around handicapper.

[Profesor]

Thanks

[ReplayRandall]

Wrong, Gulfstream is writing races for Tapeta some days there more races on Tapeta than dirt and turf combined that has turned their championship meet into the ChampionshiT meet and handle is way down.They have to card more Tapeta surface races, as the turf is in the worst shape I've ever seen.

[lamboguy]

on balance i would say that the synthetic surface will turn out real well during the winter months for Belmont. they are now going to get some of the horses that ran at Woodbine to make bigger fields.

before the synthetic surface at Gulfstream it was pretty good for me because i never played a Canadien synthetic horse on regular dirt, and never did to much of anything until the surface was added.

[Profesor]

If they use the Tapeta for off the turf races and in the winter it’s
Great , but if they go the Gulfstream way and write Tapeta races during their prime meets it will be bad,

[lamboguy]

They have to card more Tapeta surface races, as the turf is in the worst shape I've ever seen. totally right. the whole year racing is taking its toll. in places like Tampa and Mountaineer they protect their turf by never running when they might damage it. there used to be a day when the horses had to be high priced claimers, allowance or stake horses to run on the turf. today they are using lower tags in Hallendale.

[dilanesp]

It's interesting that synthetic tracks were conceived as a substitute for dirt and may actually be a substitute for turf.

[classhandicapper]

It's interesting that synthetic tracks were conceived as a substitute for dirt and may actually be a substitute for turf.

I don't see them as a substitute for anything. IMO, they are a 3rd unique surface.

[deathandgravity]

Is this the end of Aqueduct? Move winter meet to Belmont rubber?

[Profesor]

Is this the end of Aqueduct? Move winter meet to Belmont rubber?
Unfortunately, yes, too many morons, who know nothing about racing are running the show

[$w1fT]

When Aqueduct closes, NYRA will essentially go 10 months of the year with almost zero two turn dirt races being run.

[the little guy]

Unfortunately, yes, too many morons, who know nothing about racing are running the show

What exactly are your credentials to know this? What exactly do you know about any of the executives at NYRA?

The internet is chock full of people making comments with absolutely no actual knowledge of that they are talking about. This is yet another example.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=Tom;2864851]That is a pretty bold statement.
Can you back it with facts?

Like percentage of winnimng favs, average payoff, you know, real life results.

And if fav win 30% instead of 40%, ist that good? Don't we all complain favs win all the time so there are no betting opportunities?

GP would a place to statr, the same wagring crowd, basically, has all three surfaces.......[/QUOTE

One I thing that I find out very quickly is that traditional handicapping methods don’t work on Synthetics, the best and profitable handicappers that I know gave up betting Gulfstream altogether,Jon Hardoon of the Ragozin SHEETS used to do a zoom seminar during their championship meet he gave up after 3 days I quote what he said (Tapeta makes me look stupid) and believe me he is a very bright all around handicapper.

So the problem is not the tapeta, it is you........got it.

[Bustin Stones]

Prior to joining NYRA, O’Rourke was a member of the Zolfo Cooper and Capstone Advisory Group Corporate Restructuring Practices, specializing in multiple operational and financial reorganization efforts in the real estate development, gaming, auto manufacturing, retailing and shipping industries. He also served as Vice President of Operations at Datek Online and was instrumental in helping the company develop into the world’s fourth largest online brokerage.

This is the CEO of NYRA hired in 2008.

[Profesor]

[quote=Profesor;2865638]

So the problem is not the tapeta, it is you........got it.

Yes me and 99% of all horse players.

[Profesor]

What exactly are your credentials to know this? What exactly do you know about any of the executives at NYRA?

The internet is chock full of people making comments with absolutely no actual knowledge of that they are talking about. This is yet another example.

I know more than you think.

[the little guy]

I know more than you think.

You couldn’t know less, though I’m guessing it’s a photo.

[Tom]

[quote=Tom;2865832]

Yes me and 99% of all horse players.


In God We Trust.



All others, provide data...

[cj]

When Aqueduct closes, NYRA will essentially go 10 months of the year with almost zero two turn dirt races being run.

Is this really a bad thing? Seems to me one turn routes are inherently more fair contests.

[Bustin Stones]

Is this really a bad thing? Seems to me one turn routes are inherently more fair contests.

I agree. People shy away from bull ring tracks. The opposite is a no turn mile like some of the Brit racing. A one turn mile is fairer than a 2 or 3 turn mile. I imagine it's easier on the horses as well.

[Profesor]

This isn't going to be a popular position but "difficulty of handicapping" doesn't strike me as something tracks should be very concerned about.

Look, the most popular betting race is the Kentucky Derby. It's also incredibly difficult- 20 horses, lightly raced, carrying weight and going a distance they have never gone before, shipping in from various tracks to a track most of them haven't run on. How many had last year's winner?

Meanwhile, 5 horse fields at Santa Anita can be incredibly easy to handicap. Which would you rather bet on?

If synthetics make handicapping harder, you can either pass the race or try to develop an edge. But it's good, not bad, that the races are difficult. (At any rate, I doubt they are any more difficult than a field of 10 first time starter 2 year olds on the turf at Del Mar during the summer.).


Brilliant make a very hard game,even harder,🤣🤣

[ubercapper]

[quote=Tom;2865832]

Yes me and 99% of all horse players.

99% if a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?

I was a big fan of Polytrack at Keeneland, but just like now there was a big backlash against it from notable public personas like Andy Beyer and Sevee Crist. I can't find it now, but I recall around 2005 I wrote an article titled "Get Over It" which I was raked over the coals for, even here on PA. (Note: I searched but couldn't find the reference on this site I was looking for but if anyone does please post or send me a PM).

It's interesting although the makeup of all-weather surfaces has changed significantly since then (thanks to Michael Dickinson), the generalizations "no one likes it" continue while the evidence (via Turfway and Woodbine) suggests that bettors for the most part have no issue with it, and some actually like handicapping on it.

Now that there's decent scale in terms of past performances on the surface, which will only get bigger, and that most all-weather surfaces now have GPS data (velocity, stride length, individual horse times), the quiet majority (IMO) who have found ways to handicap and wager on all-weather are quite happy and will continue to be so.

[classhandicapper]

[quote=Profesor;2865872]

99% if a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?

I was a big fan of Polytrack at Keeneland, but just like now there was a big backlash against it from notable public personas like Andy Beyer and Sevee Crist. I can't find it now, but I recall around 2005 I wrote an article titled "Get Over It" which I was raked over the coals for, even here on PA.

Again, imo the problem isn’t necessarily the surface.

If a miscellaneous horse that’s been running at WO, TP, GG etc… shows up in a dirt race, you can probably take an educated guess and be comfortable by looking at the horse’s back races, workouts, the trainer’s record, pedigree etc…. If the entire field or even worse an entire card of horses is coming off synthetic races and going to dirt, you have a whole new set of problems. Same in the opposite direction. That’s going to be the case when they make the winter and spring switches.

It’s going to be really tough to handicap, make figures and appraise those horses and performances during those periods.

Same if they run one or two turf races, it pours, and they take the other turf races off and put them on synth. Now you could have races run on 4 different tracks (inner and outer turf, dirt, and synth). There’s virtually no chance of determining bias due to sample size and making figures will often be a guessing game. Even 3 is often problematical.

And this assumes they stay with the current plan for just winter and off the turf. There are going to be horses that love synth and trainers and owners that think it’s safer that are going to be asking for some extra races in spring and fall.

Of course there will be some positives in winter also if they keep and draw some extra horses, but we’ll see how it impacts the gambling.

[$w1fT]

Is this really a bad thing? Seems to me one turn routes are inherently more fair contests.

I guess it's just a personal preference for me. I like that Aqueduct offers the two turn 9f races, the one turn mile and then the 6-7f sprints.

Just as Saratoga offers similar and now with the mile races out of the chute.

[Cholly]

Is this really a bad thing?

In Chollyworld…yeah, it’s a bad thing. For fans at the track, the spectacle of a race is greatly enhanced by having the horses start in front of you–instead of some distant locale requiring a telescope to be seen.

Those watching remotely appreciate the added intrigue and strategy involved from having a 2nd turn in the race. Where does the jockey want to be positioned around the clubhouse turn? How will they get there?

Racing two turns on the dirt is the polestar for American horse racing. If one names racing’s most prestigious events, those with the largest purses, generating the most excitement and attendance, the top of the list is dominated by dirt routes that start and end in front of the grandstand. Horses who can run those types of races are what breeders breed for, and what buyers hope they will get when they're shelling out the big bucks at auction.

[the little guy]

Perpective....we might be talking about three races a week.

[Robert Fischer]

Can Forte crush his rivals in the Florida Derby? or will he be handicapped by the wide post draw with that short run to the first turn?? :coffee:

I had 2 coffees instead of one(my limit), and now I'm thinking about this enigma...

is it bad or good? It's just a factor. In this specific race, it makes it more interesting.
Some races it plays no part, or perhaps spoils the race for you by disadvantaging your watch-list bet-back horses draw....

there's a balance somewhere

[Sheffwed]

Perpective....we might be talking about three races a week.

If you ask trainers like Stidham, Brion, et al based at Fair Hill, which is three hours or less from Belmont, they might well want to send more horses up in winter knowing there is Tapeta (or whatever the all weather surface will be)

The horse population this winter at the Big A was really poor I think we can all agree, this may help with that, especially if there is regular all weather racing trainers can rely on

[Bustin Stones]

In Chollyworld…yeah, it’s a bad thing. For fans at the track, the spectacle of a race is greatly enhanced by having the horses start in front of you–instead of some distant locale requiring a telescope to be seen.

Those watching remotely appreciate the added intrigue and strategy involved from having a 2nd turn in the race. Where does the jockey want to be positioned around the clubhouse turn? How will they get there?

Racing two turns on the dirt is the polestar for American horse racing. If one names racing’s most prestigious events, those with the largest purses, generating the most excitement and attendance, the top of the list is dominated by dirt routes that start and end in front of the grandstand. Horses who can run those types of races are what breeders breed for, and what buyers hope they will get when they're shelling out the big bucks at auction.

It depends on what you want a given race to represent. The real estate next to the rail is prized on turns as it shortens the race. The more turns you have to navigate, the more the race depends on race strategy and less on whether the best horse won. It's the reason the better harness races take place on 7/8 or one mile tracks rather than 5/8 or 1/2 mile tracks. It reduces the number of turns from 4 or 3 down to 2. I'm not knocking race strategy. It's that many people would rather the best horse won. It's just a preference.

[classhandicapper]

Perpective....we might be talking about three races a week.

Are you saying in the winter they are only going to use the synthetic surface 3 times a week?

I was under the impression it was going to be the primary "winter" surface and occasionally used for off the turf races in warmer weather.

If you are saying they are going to use it 3 times a week in winter, there are way fewer issues. But I have to ask why they would bother with the cost of constructing and maintaining a track for such limited use.

[the little guy]

The conversation was about one turn routes vs two turn routes. My point was there would only be maybe three races a week affected by this...and, as usual, people were making way too big a deal about it.

Is it really that hard to follow along?

[classhandicapper]

The conversation was about one turn routes vs two turn routes. My point was there would only be maybe three races a week affected by this...and, as usual, people were making way too big a deal about it.

Is it really that hard to follow along?

Got you.

I don't think it's a big deal for gamblers. Belmont is Belmont. I guess some people are going to miss Aqueduct. I have some great memories about AQU, but none of them recent.

[Tom]

Well. it is three races a week because they got rid of the inner dirt track.

They wanted more turf so the winter meet was sacrificed in terms od route races.

[Publius]

Work is being done at Belmont Park.

[groupie doll]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/267597/mild-winter-a-boost-to-belmont-construction

I'm excited. Can't wait to see what the completed changes look like in a couple of years or so... also grateful that I was able to visit AQ twice over the years when in NY since it'll be gone pretty soon...

[biggestal99]

Do horseplayers want this and will be eager to bet it? None that I talk to.

Have the NY horseman been clamoring for this? I genuinely don’t know the answer to this. I know the Kentucky horsemen will keep their horses at Turfway for the winter and i still see the top NY turf trainers shipping their horses to FLA for the winter.

Do the politicians and activists insist on a synthetic surface? I’m sure they did although I can’t confirm.

Will NYRA will go the way of gulfstream and say they’ll only card these races in the spring/fall in off the turf scenarios and then reverse course? We’ll see.

yet handle was way up at the recently concluded all synthetic turfway meet.

someone is betting the product.

Allan

[$w1fT]

yet handle was way up at the recently concluded all synthetic turfway meet.

someone is betting the product.

Allan

If you can’t understand the difference between the Turfway product and the future Belmont product with synthetic than I won’t argue with you…

[Robert Fischer]

If you can’t understand the difference between the Turfway product and the future Belmont product with synthetic than I won’t argue with you…

:ThmbUp:

Turfway running a 10 horse field with several pace elements and a Belmont race with 6 horses including an uncoupled entry and between the short field and the closely knit colony, can get some frustrating pace models&results.

It's tough to get the significant flawed favorite with a keyable non-favorite, & w/ enough models moving in your direction at Turfway,

but in Belmont's synth races it's easier to see the right moving parts, but I have to wait a while for the prices to fit.

I don't like how Toyota Camry brought out a new model back in 2025.

[ReplayRandall]

I don't like how Toyota Camry brought out a new model back in 2025.I always knew you were a time travelling Space Cadet....:popcorn:

[biggestal99]

If you can’t understand the difference between the Turfway product and the future Belmont product with synthetic than I won’t argue with you…

bettors will not be fearful of betting belmont synthetic racing is my prediction.

Allan

[therussmeister]

bettors will not be fearful of betting belmont synthetic racing is my prediction.

Allan

You have a strong bias towards synthetic surfaces, which you likely fail to account for when making such predictions. So, if I paid attention to any such predictions, and I don't, it wouldn't be yours.

[biggestal99]

You have a strong bias towards synthetic surfaces, which you likely fail to account for when making such predictions. So, if I paid attention to any such predictions, and I don't, it wouldn't be yours.

did people stop betting in florida when they constructed synthetics.

its only losing handicappers who dont like synthetics, my advice is dont bet if you dont like a surface.

hows that dirt racing in california doing since the switch back to dirt.

unbetable 5 horse fields.

synthetic in new york will do wonder for field sizes in off the turfers.

Allan

[cj]

did people stop betting in florida when they constructed synthetics.


Allan

It hasn't been pretty numbers wise.

[Cholly]

Is Churchill planning to have turf races in their upcoming Spring Meet? Or does the new grass need ANOTHER six months to settle in?

Seeing the condition of the Churchill & Fair Grounds turf courses recently, maybe CDI should rip both of them up and replace with Tapeta.

[Profesor]

[QUOTE=biggestal99;2868655]

did people stop betting in florida when they constructed synthetics.


Yes they did, handle was down more than 25% during their 2021-2022 ChampionshiT meet, don’t have the figures for 2022-2023 but it’s probably down a lot from what they handled pretapita .

[Tom]

So I'm wondering, if Aqu does close, and Belmont runs 10 months, will they call the winter meet AQB? (AQU AT BEL) :rolleyes:

[JohnGalt1]

[QUOTE=biggestal99;2868655]

did people stop betting in florida when they constructed synthetics.


Yes they did, handle was down more than 25% during their 2021-2022 ChampionshiT meet, don’t have the figures for 2022-2023 but it’s probably down a lot from what they handled pretapita .

Could one reason be the condition of the "New" turf course? Maybe they should've just kept the green painted dirt?

[JohnGalt1]

So I'm wondering, if Aqu does close, and Belmont runs 10 months, will they call the winter meet AQB? (AQU AT BEL) :rolleyes:

Tom, I read Santa Anita will run a Hollywood meet. Give it your best shot at that 3 letter code.