Trainers Trying For Third??

[Pace Cap'n]

This is a wild idea that just crossed my mind.

Say you're a trainer and the big $75g stakes race is this weekend and War Admiral XXIV is sure to run. You know your nag can't beat him but you could use a payday and $7500 ain't hay. So you enter him for the express purpose of capturing third.

Trainer to Jock: "Don't worry about winning, just hold third."

Does anyone reckon this happens? Happens in smaller races? Or bigger?

Much has been made of trainer intent and trainer patterns when going for the gold. Has anyone ever considered and/or tracked trainers who might be inclined to go for the bronze?

[aaron]

In NY there was a trainer/owner named Murray Guerren who used to enter horses with no chance in short fields and more often than not,he picked up a piece of the purse.

[Valuist]

I know for a fact that many owners are happy to get a check even if its just 3rd or 4th but I don't know about many who tell the rider to run third. I do always wonder about some of these horses that are 0 for 22 with 8 seconds and 5 thirds and "find" ways to get beat. There's worse things an owner can have than an Illinois or NY bred who keeps hitting the board in state bred maiden races, especially when they can't Beyer over 60.

[Overlay]

I agree with the trainer's rationale for entering the horse in the race, but if the horse is so clearly overmatched by the favorite, would there really be a reason for the trainer to explicitly tell the jockey to hold for third (which to me implies that he is somehow asking that the horse put forth less than its best effort)? If even the trainer is accepting it as a given that the favorite will win the race, wouldn't the trainer's horse (and jockey) have to be making an honest effort to be able to earn some of the purse money? Or are you saying that what the trainer means by that is for the jockey not to take unnecessary chances with the horse's trip, or not to let the horse get cooked in a pace scenario, that will leave it out of position or with insufficient energy to be in the hunt for a piece of the purse at the finish?

[sq764]

I would think the better direction is "Don't get in a speed duel or you will get smoked. Let them run and pick up the pieces"..

[Pace Cap'n]

My thoughts were more along the lines of the trainer entering with the express goal of finishing third, and getting 10% of the purse.

His pace scenario would be geared towards beating all but two.

Just daydreaming.

[BIG HIT]

Think each situation is different.The grade1 horse dropping into alw is suppose to be one of the worse bet's.As a general rule and some trainer do think they can win other's figure 2and\thrid in a big race is better then a alw win purse portion not to mention all the hopla of the big race and there a part of it like the derby.

[toetoe]

Cap'n
Actually, it's 15%, and only 5 %age points more for 2nd.

[CryingForTheHorses]

In The state of Florida,A owner gets 60% 2nd 20% 3rd 11% 4th 5%.The rest of the field splits the remaining 3 or 4%of the remaining purse. The trainer will get 10% of 1st to 4th, When you enter in a big race with a cheap speed horse,You are hoping his cheap speed will help him last for at least 3rd. Look at it this way..If you ran your cheap horse for 8k and he won, He would lose his condition,If he runs in a higher pot race, He can finish on the board and make almost the same money and NOT lose his condition, The trick is to have a horse that can do this!! You have to be sharp enough to know who is going into that race and how the others run.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I thought PP's show those horses try mostly for 4th place.
At GGF or BM they run a lot of short fields in big races, even with some scratches by contenders.
I guess off tracks would be a good place to pull the trick- maybe claim a horse that can compete at $16,000 and is dropping to $10,000. Claim and run in HCP's on off-tracks so the racing secretary can assign a low weight, use an apprentice and try to run off-the-pace.
I have seen a few older routers who could hold up well in the bigger races; some stretch out as they age.

[jk3521]

Aaron, you mentioned Murray Garren , (his trainer was Gil Puentes until he died). Every once in a while one of his longshots in those stakes races would pull off the upset win at boxcar odds.

[hurrikane]

I think this applys to the jock as well, maybe more so.

a jock on a horse that cant' beat the fav is going to go for the other purse. some are very good at getting horses in the money you would not expect. Desourmeux. comes to mind.

[garyoz]

I think trainers are sometimes reluctant to run out of their NW conditions, particularly in State Bred races. Some of those bridesmaids rack up big $$'s running second and third. I first read this premise in a blurb written in the old trip notes Logic Dictates, almost 10 years ago.

[JohnGalt1]

A few years ago a MN bred horse that was running in Penn National $3K races was shipped to Canterbury to run in the Festival of Champions $35K championship race for MN breds. It was shortly after the track reopend so breeding had fallen off. There was only a five horse field.

The horse finished 4th double digits back and picked up a larger check than if he won a $4K purse $3k claiming race.

I saw the horse in the Form a few months later. He had also stopped at Hawthorne on his way home finished 3rd and picked up another check. So he made $5-6K for the trip.

[Pace Cap'n]

From yesterday's race at Gulfstream won by Musique Toujours:

"To be honest, we shipped there thinking it would be nice to finish on the board in a $1 million race", said John Sadler, the trainer.

Granted, that was not his express intent, but intent nonetheless.

(last paragraph)

Link to story
(http://www.drf.com/news/article/62377.html)

[Figman]

Pace
Disagree! There is no horseman racing on the stakes, handicap and high allowance level at any major track in a race with an "intent" to finish anywhere other than 1st.

We as handicappers think wagering scores.
Horsemen competing at the top race levels at major tracks think nothing but purses.

When you compete at the highest levels you are confident that you will run well but you are also a realist that your competition is invariably quite keen. Sometimes you look at a stakes past performances and as a horseman you say to yourself, "what I am I doing in here? I hope I can get at least a piece of the purse." This is a far cry from the "intent" of finishing third!

[sq764]

Pace
Disagree! There is no horseman racing on the stakes, handicap and high allowance level at any major track in a race with an "intent" to finish anywhere other than 1st.

We as handicappers think wagering scores.
Horsemen competing at the top race levels at major tracks think nothing but purses.

When you compete at the highest levels you are confident that you will run well but you are also a realist that your competition is invariably quite keen. Sometimes you look at a stakes past performances and as a horseman you say to yourself, "what I am I doing in here? I hope I can get at least a piece of the purse." This is a far cry from the "intent" of finishing third!
TRYING not to win and not trying to win at all costs are 2 different things..

[Tom]

To this day, I cannot understand why Slew 'O Gold was allowed to win in a walkover. Wtih that big a purse, place money would have been worth the trip around that track.

[azibuck]

I know for a fact Jerry Bailey would never try to hold third. At least not when I've ever had his horse on my tri ticket(, the sonofabitch).

[WINMANWIN]

I know 1 thing :o If I owned a marginal N.Y. bred, I would hope to finish
for a placing, purse money 2'nd - 5'th indefinitely. We all know, when they run out there conditions in statebred races, it's awfully hard to spot them realistically. I rather run once a mth, 12 times a year for 3 or 4 years and Bet my steed when I think he can get 2nd :eek: If anyone knows how to read the PP's, these statebred races are Comedy Central, and the Comedy is not only WITH N.Y. BREDS. :o It's Rampant with all Statebred Races :mad:

[WINMANWIN]

Case in point today in AQUE'S 8th, N.Y. bred race, STEED NAMED NAPOLEAN SOLO had a WIDE JOURNEY to NO WHERE, with an obscure Jock, Today
Nick Santagata shows up from Philly Park, pays over $100.00 for the Win, and it's a big Carryover again tomorrow.... :eek: Oh, and naturally it beat me. :o