Eagles/Vikings

[sq764]

Gotta tell ya, Culpepper played exactly as I anticipated... Can't read a defense for shit and almost all his yardage came from screen passes and jump balls.. The 2 interceptions he threw were simply horrible..

I am sure CJ and Valuist will come back and blast this and use excuses like his receivers stink and he had 300 yards and blah blah blah.. But the reality is he looked like a confused little boy out there and is simply overrated.. Love to watch it..

Would ya still take Culpepper over Mcnabb??

Now onto the NFC Champ game and try to win it this time!!

[Valuist]

I wouldn't have responded but you dragged my name into so I will: football is a team game. The Vikings gave up too many points. Before today Culpepper went 130 passes without a INT. If you bet the games you'd know its about the team, not the individuals.

I'm happy Culpepper DIDNT have 3 TD passes because I had the under. Thank you Freddie Mitchell, for fumbling the ball before going into the end zone, and then for recovering the on sides kick.

[sq764]

They gave up too many points?? The Vikings didn't score enough.. They basically scored 1 touchdown and a cheesy, mean nothing touchdown at the end. How can you win with 7 points?

You don't think throwing 2 horrendous ints while your team is driving kills your team and it's chances?

[Valuist]

So he threw 2 INTs. He played better than Rothlesberger did yesterday and certainly better than Favre last week.

Bottom line: Minnesota isn't a better team than Philly and didn't figure to beat them anyways.

[sq764]

You're finding solice that he played better than a rookie with 13 games under his belt? Now that just shows you have to reach far to find a silver lining..

Face it, he's a loser. He doesn't have the heart, just like Moss..

[cj]

If McNabb played for Minnesota, and Culpepper for the Eagles, it still would have been an Eagles victory. Lot of fluky plays in that game.

Is Manning a "loser" if New England hangs in to win this game? Is McNabb a "loser" if the Falcons beat him next week, or if he loses the Super Bowl?

Where is your Vick bashing?

[sq764]

Wow, you went an entire response without dogging Pennington.. Whats up with that??

CJ, tell me honestly.. Who had the better receivers today, Mcnabb or Culpepper?

[sq764]

I;ve told you what I think of Vick.. He's a good QB, but also overrated.. If you force him to stay in the pocket, he's vulnerable..

He's massively talented, just like Moss.. But talented doesn't win, you have to execute.. So far this year, Vick has played well enough to win some games.. If they fall behind, he is in deep trouble.. You can't put him in the class of Brady, Manning and Mcnabb..

[cj]

I'd say it was a push on receivers today. An injured Moss, a Marcus "retread" Robinson, and Nate Burleson?

Vick, well enough to win some games? He's already matched McNabb's accomplishment of reaching the NFC title game.

Please, stop putting McNabb and Manning in Brady's class. They aren't there yet. Manning could throw 149 TD passes during the season, he'll still lose to Brady. Think the Colts would like to have that first game of the season back now?

[sq764]

You are not objective at all if you think the receivers were equal today.. That's just ridiculous..

[cj]

Why is it ridiculous? Moss was limping all over the field. I could have covered that guy. Moss and Burleson are indistinguishable from all the other 2 and 3 receivers in the league.

You avoided my other point...switch QBs, the Eagles still win. Do you agree with that?

I don't have the same opinion of the Colts - Pats game.

[sq764]

So you say that Manning and Mcnabb shouldn't be mentioned with brady.. So if you insert Manning and Mcnabb on New England, do they win 2 superbowls still?

So you are not saying Freddie Mitchell was comparable to the Vikings receivers.. Now I have heard it all.. Instead of making excuses for the guy, just once admit that he's just not that good and he blew it.

[cj]

You still haven't answered the question sec...if the QBs swap teams, do the Eagles still win?

As for the New England question, I'd have to say no, I've seen no evidence that either one of them can win a huge game in tough circumstances. The Eagles had the cakewalk of all schedules this year. If they don't win the NFC this year, how are they ever going to win it? I think if Brady is playing for the Colts yesterday, its a totally different game. Manning doesn't shine when the game is the toughest.

I'm saying the receivers on the field for the Eagles yesterday were as good as the Vikings receivers yesterday with Moss being hurt. How am I wrong about that? I don't think you are going to find Nate Burleson and Marcus Robinson in the Pro Bowl any time soon. A healthy Moss makes those guys look a lot better than they really are, and it was proven again yesterday.

[sq764]

You still haven't answered the question sec...if the QBs swap teams, do the Eagles still win?

As for the New England question, I'd have to say no, I've seen no evidence that either one of them can win a huge game in tough circumstances. The Eagles had the cakewalk of all schedules this year. If they don't win the NFC this year, how are they ever going to win it? I think if Brady is playing for the Colts yesterday, its a totally different game. Manning doesn't shine when the game is the toughest.

I'm saying the receivers on the field for the Eagles yesterday were as good as the Vikings receivers yesterday with Moss being hurt. How am I wrong about that? I don't think you are going to find Nate Burleson and Marcus Robinson in the Pro Bowl any time soon. A healthy Moss makes those guys look a lot better than they really are, and it was proven again yesterday.


So receivers being equal in your mind, it was a simple matter of Mcnabb outplaying Culpepper again.

Let me ask you this.. Of the 3 QBs, who is the best one - Culpepper, Mcnabb, Vick?

[Buddha]

when did football become just a QB game or a WR game? I thought it took 11 offensive players, 11 defensive players and special teams to win games? McNabb is good, but does that mean he will make a team win? No. Any of the mentioned QBs are good as they are starters on teams in the playoffs, but they themselves didn't get their team there. They had to have help from their teammates. I am sick of seeing this every week of which QB is good, which isnt, which is overrated, etc. Can we all just get over it and watch the games for what they are, and not have to argue at who is the better player. It is a TEAM game.


Now, with that all said, I worked all weekend and didnt get to see any of the games, but I am sick of all the arguing of who is the better player every week.

[Valuist]

Amen Buddha.

[cj]

So receivers being equal in your mind, it was a simple matter of Mcnabb outplaying Culpepper again.

Let me ask you this.. Of the 3 QBs, who is the best one - Culpepper, Mcnabb, Vick?

Still haven't answered my question. You are hilarious today!

To answer your first question, I think the defenses MIGHT have had something to do with it. I would hope you would agree that Pha has a vastly superior defense to Minnesota. If you don't see that, no point having a discussion.

Of the 3, I honestly don't know. All have now been to the NFC Championship, all have lost. I'd probably give McNabb the lean right now, but with a real coach, Culpepper could pass him. I don't Vick will ever be a good enough passer to be better than those two.

[sq764]

when did football become just a QB game or a WR game? I thought it took 11 offensive players, 11 defensive players and special teams to win games? McNabb is good, but does that mean he will make a team win? No. Any of the mentioned QBs are good as they are starters on teams in the playoffs, but they themselves didn't get their team there. They had to have help from their teammates. I am sick of seeing this every week of which QB is good, which isnt, which is overrated, etc. Can we all just get over it and watch the games for what they are, and not have to argue at who is the better player. It is a TEAM game.


Now, with that all said, I worked all weekend and didnt get to see any of the games, but I am sick of all the arguing of who is the better player every week.
You don't think great quarterbacks make their team great? You don't think a great player can take over a game?

Could Sandy Koufax have won on the Devil Rays?? YES!

Could Michael Jordan win on the worst NBA team? YES!

Why is there a Pro Bowl? What is the criteria for pro bowl players?

Why do players make the pro bowl while playing for horrible teams??

How do Derrick Brooks and Rhonde Barber start in the pro bowl on a 5-11 team? How about Chad Johnson?

[sq764]

Still haven't answered my question. You are hilarious today!

To answer your first question, I think the defenses MIGHT have had something to do with it. I would hope you would agree that Pha has a vastly superior defense to Minnesota. If you don't see that, no point having a discussion.

Of the 3, I honestly don't know. All have now been to the NFC Championship, all have lost. I'd probably give McNabb the lean right now, but with a real coach, Culpepper could pass him. I don't Vick will ever be a good enough passer to be better than those two.
I don't know if the Eagles would have won with Culpepper, it's impossible to say.

I don't think culpepper would ever pass McNabb unless he got a lesson in how to read a defense. Did you watch the first half? He looked so horribly confused. Audibiling run plays on run defenses and vice/versa. If you can't read defenses after starting 76 NFL games, you haven't been paying attention along the way.

[Buddha]

You don't think great quarterbacks make their team great? You don't think a great player can take over a game?



THis is my last post about this as I already said I hate reading it week in and week out. I never said that I dont think a QB can make their team great, but your week in week out chatter about how this QB is good, this one stinks, this one is overrated is getting old. There is more to the team than just the QB. It is a TEAM game. Sure a great QB can take over a game, but he can only take over the offensive half of a game. Like CJ said earlier, Culpepper could be better if he had a better Defense. It isnt all about one position. It takes a full team and all positions to make the team, and especially to make a GREAT team.

That is all that I am saying, and I just hope that this doesnt continue on week in and week out for every sport. I am not going to say anymore about it, I just wanted to voice my opinion that I get sick of seeing it each week, and I am sure that I am not the only one.

[sq764]

then don't read it.. that simple.

[Valuist]

Outstanding quarterbacks such as a Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning by themselves would never make a Tennessee-Martin beat a Southern California on the football field.

from Kelso Sturgeon's column today. I have to agree with that.

[cj]

I don't think culpepper would ever pass McNabb unless he got a lesson in how to read a defense.

ROFL! Isn't this what a halfway decent coaching staff might be able to accomplish?

[sq764]

Outstanding quarterbacks such as a Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning by themselves would never make a Tennessee-Martin beat a Southern California on the football field.

from Kelso Sturgeon's column today. I have to agree with that.
I agree too.. But you are also talking about apples and oranges.. ANy team in the NFL can beat any other team (see Cincy over New England, Namaath and the Jets).. In college this is not true.

I don't think there is a gap that seperates Tennessee-Martin and USC in the NFL..

That is why they have a 1-AA designation, and USC is 1-A..

[sq764]

ROFL! Isn't this what a halfway decent coaching staff might be able to accomplish?
You think Indy has a great QB coach?? Seriously??

[cj]

Well, yes, he is a good QB coach, everywhere he has been the passing attack has been sucessful. Not to mention Manning has been receiving great coaching his entire life!

Culpepper has never really had great coaching, or even good coaching. Somehow, I don't think the coaching he received at Central Florida had him ready for the NFL. Probably Peyton got just a tad bit better instruction at Tennessee.

To paraphrase you, your comparison is ridiculous.

[Valuist]

Culpepper can't read a defense, huh? If that's the case, he'd be getting picked often. Lets see, over the last 2 years he's thrown 1002 passes and only 22 picks; thats in two years, not one. Contrast that to Brett Favre, who's attempted almost an identical number of passes (1011) but was picked 38 times.

[sq764]

Well, yes, he is a good QB coach, everywhere he has been the passing attack has been sucessful. Not to mention Manning has been receiving great coaching his entire life!

Culpepper has never really had great coaching, or even good coaching. Somehow, I don't think the coaching he received at Central Florida had him ready for the NFL. Probably Peyton got just a tad bit better instruction at Tennessee.

To paraphrase you, your comparison is ridiculous.
Cj, you hit the nail on the head.. Manning has been getting great coaching his entire life, not from Dungee or any of his Indy coaches..So going to Indy isn't going to accelerate a QB's performance as much as you would think.

You think Steve Mcnair was prepared for the NFL by the Alcorn State coaches? How about a certain wide receiver from Mississippi Valley State?

Any more excuses why this guy can't win? Rough childhood too?

[sq764]

Culpepper can't read a defense, huh? If that's the case, he'd be getting picked often. Lets see, over the last 2 years he's thrown 1002 passes and only 22 picks; thats in two years, not one. Contrast that to Brett Favre, who's attempted almost an identical number of passes (1011) but was picked 38 times.
You're comparing someone in the prime of his career vs someone in the tail end of their career.. Joe Montana did not have great stats with the Chiefs, what does that mean?

[sq764]

Culpepper can't read a defense, huh? If that's the case, he'd be getting picked often. Lets see, over the last 2 years he's thrown 1002 passes and only 22 picks; thats in two years, not one. Contrast that to Brett Favre, who's attempted almost an identical number of passes (1011) but was picked 38 times.
If you want to compare Favre with Culpepper, compare their 3rd full year in the league.. Culpepper 18 TD's, 23 INTs... Favre 33 TDs, 14 INTs

[cj]

Cj, you hit the nail on the head.. Manning has been getting great coaching his entire life, not from Dungee or any of his Indy coaches..So going to Indy isn't going to accelerate a QB's performance as much as you would think.

You think Steve Mcnair was prepared for the NFL by the Alcorn State coaches? How about a certain wide receiver from Mississippi Valley State?

Any more excuses why this guy can't win? Rough childhood too?

As usual, you miss the mark on all counts. First, you ask about the Indy coach. He is a good QB coach, always has been everywhere he has gone. But you just dismiss that as meaningless because Manning is already good.

Steve McNair? What has this guy really done better than Culpepper? He reached a Super Bowl with a very, very good team, but he's just isn't that good. A servicable QB, when he is healthy, to be sure, but not much more than that.

What do playing QB and playing WR have in common? Nothing! Another ridiculous comparison.

Maybe Culpepper will never win, but then again, a lot of great QBs never won anything. Was Dan Fouts not a great QB? Dan Marino? Given a real coach with a decent system, I think he could. That's all I'm saying.

Nice duck by the way, you finally answer my question with "I don't know." When have you ever not known about anything? :eek:

[sq764]

So were Dan Fouts and Dan Marino great QBs?

[Valuist]

In the view of 99.9% of football fans, absolutely. I don't know how old you are, but if you saw either in their prime you know they were two of the top 10 QBs ever.

[sq764]

In the view of 99.9% of football fans, absolutely. I don't know how old you are, but if you saw either in their prime you know they were two of the top 10 QBs ever.
I agree they were both great QBs.. But I wonder, with no SB rings, why they were considered great.. Like what criteria was used to put them in that category..

[Valuist]

Even though they never won Super Bowls, they made their teams far better. Its not a quarterback's fault when they are on a team who has a bad defense (Fouts, Culpepper come to mind) or no running game (Marino, and for many years, Elway).

The Bills went to 4 straight Super Bowls, losing all 4. But could you really say they weren't a great team? That's an amazing accomplishment, but in this "win it all" obessed society, they're viewed as losers.

[sq764]

I think what the Bills did was remarkable actually.. Soome view them as losers, I thought getting to the SB that many times is something that won't be repeated..

It's just odd that someone like Mcnabb is not considered an outstanding QB until he gets to the SB..I wonder why

[Valuist]

I think he's considered an outstanding QB right now, esp getting to the NFC championship the previous 3 years with little offensive help.

I can add Manning to that list of QBs who are forced to play with bad defenses.

[sq764]

I guess I wonder why CJ said to 'stop putting Manning and Mcnabb in the same category as Brady'.. I thought that was implying that Brady had won Superbowls, which set him apart..

[cj]

I look at QBs like this, for what its worth.

1. Great QBs with Super Bowls
2. Other Great QBs
3. Decent QBs with Super Bowls
4. The Rest

Example of some:

1. Montana, Elway, Brady, Staubach
2. Marino, Fouts, McNabb, Manning, Kelly, Tarkenton
3. Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms
4. Hostetler, Plunkett, Dilfer, etc

I know it isn't always the "fault" of the second group that they don't win a Super Bowl, but it has to count for something.

[sq764]

I look at QBs like this, for what its worth.

1. Great QBs with Super Bowls
2. Other Great QBs
3. Decent QBs with Super Bowls
4. The Rest

Example of some:

1. Montana, Elway, Brady, Staubach
2. Marino, Fouts, McNabb, Manning, Kelly, Tarkenton
3. Bradshaw, Aikman, Simms
4. Hostetler, Plunkett, Dilfer, etc

I know it isn't always the "fault" of the second group that they don't win a Super Bowl, but it has to count for something.
Solid list, I agree with most of them.. I still can't put Brady in the same breath of Elway and Montana.. I think those 2 qualify as legends..

Interesting, no Culpepper anywhere?

[cj]

Culpepper, he's with the rest. I just wouldn't give up on him and call him a loser yet.

[sq764]

Fair enough..

Curious, where do you put Favre?

[cj]

Favre is obviously in the first list, I didn't mean it as all inclusive, just a few examples.

[sq764]

Reason I asked was because I hear some people saying Favre has always been overhyped and overrated his whole career..

I find this to be a bunch of crap, since I still think he's one of the best QBs of all time.. A fewticks below an Elway and Montana

[Valuist]

Favre most definitely not overrated in the mid-late 90s. But he's very overrated right now, as he hasn't been a top QB for several years. But without question, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, based on what he did when he was at the top of his game.

[sq764]

Well, I tend to agree that playmakers (whether great plays or creative plays) can be massively overhyped by the media.. I think Favre is an exciting player that may be a bit overrated right now.. I think Vick fits the same bill - exciting at times, great runner, but not really a very good QB..

[Valuist]

Overhyped and overpaid? Probably. But, also extremely dangerous because he's different from any other QB. Now, McNabb and Culpepper are basically passers who can run if they have to. Vick is obviously more dangerous with his legs; we'll see if he becomes a good passer. The arm strength is there; the accuracy is the question mark.

[sq764]

Definitely has arm strength... But the accuracy, touch and decision making are not there.. Maybe they will be, maybe not..

I wonder in 3 or 4 years after 50 more NFL games when he starts to wear down if he will almost be forced to learn to pass from the pocket..

I also wonder if we will ever see a runner-first QB win a superbowl.. I seriously doubt it,.

[sq764]

Overhyped and overpaid? Probably. But, also extremely dangerous because he's different from any other QB. Now, McNabb and Culpepper are basically passers who can run if they have to. Vick is obviously more dangerous with his legs; we'll see if he becomes a good passer. The arm strength is there; the accuracy is the question mark.

Vick can run, period.. What puts Mcnabb in another class is he can run AND throw on the run.. Vick looked awful today.. Wasn't even close most of the day. Mcnabb was clutch and although not flashy, he was solid and had a fantastic game.. Sorry, but Vick and Mcnabb are in two totally different categories..