Aqu Cxl After The 3 rd race Sat 1/8/05 [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

The Hawk

01-08-2005, 02:51 PM

NYRA really looks after their fans, all 1100 of them who trudged out to that cesspool only to be turned away after three races. Either A) close that dump until you get the track straightened out so it can handle some moisture or B) cancel every morning when there's a chance of rain, so those poor souls can find something else to do with their time, like go to the Meadowlands and bet on some decent races that are actually being run in the rain.

PaceAdvantage

01-08-2005, 03:35 PM

Tom

01-08-2005, 04:03 PM

I'm sipping a nice rum and coke watching the beautiful palm trees at Tampa.
There is a foot of "flurries" on my doorstep, but they cannot get me with all this warm sunshine on my montior. :)
Aqu-what?

The Hawk

01-08-2005, 05:09 PM

Yeah. Some rain. It wasn't torrential. It rained. And they cancelled after three. If it was that bad out here they never would have run even three races. But it was...raining.

Whoever's decision it was, jocks or management, it was because of the condition of the track. Even NYRA officials recognize that winter comes every year, which is why the track is supposedly "winterized". Charles Town, Mountaineer, and Turfway cancel due to cold and/or snow all the time. They don't cancel because it rained.

I've played NYRA and other tracks for 25 years, probably longer than you have, but I recognized years ago that the product is completely overrated.

Suff

01-08-2005, 07:13 PM

Whatever.

"Some" rain? Do you really live in NY?

And just who decided to cancel? Was it the jockeys, or track management?

This happens every winter....it's par for the course when you run a winter meet in a cold climate locale. Just ask Mountaineer, Charles Town, and Turfway, and every other winter track in a cold climate....

Is this the first year you're playing Aqueduct inner?

Disagree... should have run. If they could'nt run today then whats the use of having a winter meet... I'll tell you something... If I'm reading between the lines properly... I sense two things.. 1. The Racing Colony, Including Jocks, Trainers and agents, Don't think to highly of Jerry Porticelli and his crew. I've seen some subtle and not so subtle comments that give me the sense that they are trying to put some spills and some cancels and even some scratchs on the poor conditioning of the track... and 2. When Management goes straight to Spitzer to "Rat" on some wieght fluffs... You cannot expect an ounce of cooperation to come back to them..

Those are not only Hall of Fame riders in the irons.. Those are Hall Of Fame Riders working the scales...and IMHO... That should have been handled in-house.

Suff

01-08-2005, 07:28 PM

You know another thing that really gets my ass about the cancel..

And it doesn't affect me so I'm not sure why It bothers me so much..

But If I buy a Program at Aqueduct and they cancel.. They don't refund. And they don't give a voucher..

They make you drag around the program until the next time you come and they'll swap it back. And.. They only give you two weeks. If You come back in 3 weeks.. sorry.

Man does that burn my ass. If I buy a program and You cancel. Give me my freaking money back. Now. I'm not holding onto a useless program to "earn" my money back.. Nor should I have a Time condition on when they'll honor the commitment to sell me a Program for a card that runs...

If I heard Tom Durkin make that Ridicolous announcement one more time today... I was going to Logan, Flying to La Guardia, Taking a Taxi to Aqueduct.. Making a Huge Pile of Programs out front and then Lighting them on Fire in Protest.

Jesus Jiminey Christmas.... If you sell me a program and then cancel.. Give me my money back. Hello!

Buddha

01-08-2005, 07:59 PM

They make you drag around the program until the next time you come and they'll swap it back. And.. They only give you two weeks. If You come back in 3 weeks.. sorry.

Jesus Jiminey Christmas.... If you sell me a program and then cancel.. Give me my money back. Hello!

Mountaineer has the same policy on the programs. What does NYRA do about DRFs sold? Any refund? MNR doesnt.

Tom

01-08-2005, 08:06 PM

Suff

01-08-2005, 08:15 PM

Finger Lakes gives you a coupon good for the year on programs. No deals on DRF - probably no thier call.
they also have free parking and admission.
Now, which track is the minor leauge track? :rolleyes:

Thats what I'm saying.. At the very least... swap it out for a coupon/voucher that you can tuck in your wallet....and if they were really on thier game... allow you to use it anywhere... OTB parlor, Newstand etc...

but a refund should be an option for the customer.

wonatthewire1

01-08-2005, 08:29 PM

<<<Making a Huge Pile of Programs out front and then Lighting them on Fire in Protest.>>>

The rain would have put them out! :eek:

takeout

01-09-2005, 03:18 AM

Jesus Jiminey Christmas.... If you sell me a program and then cancel.. Give me my money back. Hello!
Couldn’t agree more. They must have people at tracks whose only job is to dream up ways to irritate their customers.

Programs ought to be free anyway. Problem solved.

Richard

01-09-2005, 06:20 AM

Too bad.I was looking forward to the Count Fleet S..That's where I first spotted Smarty Jones last year.I'm sure they'll run it next week.

Suff

01-09-2005, 08:36 AM

.. 1. The Racing Colony, Including Jocks, Trainers and agents, Don't think to highly of Jerry Porticelli and his crew. I've seen some subtle and not so subtle comments that give me the sense that they are trying to put some spills and some cancels and even some scratchs on the poor conditioning of the track... house.

I guess I wasn't to far off the mark... This showed up on DRF this Morning.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/61908.html

Track superintendent Jerry Porcelli said the inner track absorbed six-tenths of an inch of rain Saturday and was sloppy to start the day. Porcelli declined to comment further.

According to jockey Richard Migliore, who rode the first two races, the riders complained of several washouts on the track following the opener. Porcelli addressed those issues, but following the third race, the jockeys complained again.

The jockeys met and, according to Migliore, voted 15-3 not to ride. Migliore, who won the second race but did not ride the third, said the inner track is an excellent cold-weather surface, but doesn't handle excessive water well.

John Passero, formerly the track superintendent in Maryland, begins work in the same role here Tuesday. Porcelli will remain at NYRA and report to Passero.

IRISHLADSTABLE

01-09-2005, 09:32 AM

Too bad.I was looking forward to the Count Fleet S..That's where I first spotted Smarty Jones last year.I'm sure they'll run it next week.

The Count Fleet will be run next Sat 1/15/05

Jimmy

hurrikane

01-09-2005, 09:53 AM

Passero is no deal either.

Tom

01-09-2005, 05:09 PM

Takeout wrote:
"Programs ought to be free anyway. Problem solved."

Agreed. When is that last you sat down in a restaurant and the charged you fro the menu? The basice falw in our game, as i see it, is that track managments typically have no insight, no clue, as to what customer service is all about.
If NYRA wanted to really so something right, they would hire Suff to run the show! ;)

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 03:58 AM

Whoever's decision it was, jocks or management, it was because of the condition of the track. Even NYRA officials recognize that winter comes every year, which is why the track is supposedly "winterized". Charles Town, Mountaineer, and Turfway cancel due to cold and/or snow all the time. They don't cancel because it rained.

That's baloney and you know it. Those tracks you mentioned HAVE cancelled because of rain in the past.

And you mention a winterized track. Winterized means it is designed to withstand FREEZING temperatures better than a regular main track, not RAIN. And the freezing/thawing we've had around here lately is no bargain either.

This is nothing out of the ordinary. It's not even worth an argument.

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 04:03 AM

Disagree... should have run. If they could'nt run today then whats the use of having a winter meet... I'll tell you something... If I'm reading between the lines properly... I sense two things.. 1. The Racing Colony, Including Jocks, Trainers and agents, Don't think to highly of Jerry Porticelli and his crew. I've seen some subtle and not so subtle comments that give me the sense that they are trying to put some spills and some cancels and even some scratchs on the poor conditioning of the track... and 2. When Management goes straight to Spitzer to "Rat" on some wieght fluffs... You cannot expect an ounce of cooperation to come back to them..

What's the use of having a winter meet? Do you not expect a few cancellations a year during the winter? Hell, I remember a cancellation at BELMONT a few years ago because of too much rain.

Also, you can thank Elliot Spitzer and his politically motivated "use a sledge hammer to kill a fly" sanctions for the recent NYRA actions concerning the weight issues. If NYRA doesn't go to Spitzer, they are screwed. They can't afford even the slightest hint of wrong doing on management's part, or any hint of a cover up, which is what would have happened if they decided to resolve the issue in-house.

Storm Cadet

01-10-2005, 09:06 AM

Shut the place down

I wouldn't mind closing the place down for the month of Feb. anyway, no body goes, it's too damn cold for the workers, horses don't want to leave the barns...racing is poor... ;)

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 09:27 AM

Man, the negative attitudes in this thread are quite depressing.

I for one think the racing at Aqueduct at the moment is very good, considering the time of year. The races are quite competitive, and the payouts have been more than generous at times.

Plus it's the INNER TRACK! For a pace handicapper, what's not to love? I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the Aqueduct Inner Track. I love that place, and hope they never close it down for the winter.....

The Hawk

01-10-2005, 10:29 AM

I guess because we're talking about beloved NYRA it's a "negative attitude"? What would you call your posts in the threads about MEC? That's not negative, but this is? Come on.

PA, probably ALL tracks have cancelled at one time or another due to heavy rains. But even a NYRA guy like yourself has to recognize that this has become a serious problem at Aqueduct, an ongoing issue that doesn't seem to be getting resolved. OK, once in a blue moon it'll rain hard enough in a given area to cause a track to cancel. But this has become ridiculous. Track maintenance at the NYRA tracks is a disgrace for a "major circuit."

Observer

01-10-2005, 11:00 AM

Personally, I find the negative attitudes seem to be running freely not just on specific threads, but on this whole board, and in life in general. Seems like just about everyone these days looks to tear someone else down, and revel in other people's mistakes or misfortune, and it seems the more high-profile of those suffering from misfortune, the more enjoyment is taken from it by those who choose to do the revelling.

Back to the inner track, though. As I remember it, days of thawing were the days that seemed most dicey. After a certain point, it has to become understandable that a surface simply can not tolerate any more water, but it's not like you can turn off the rain or turn the temperature and/or wind up.

I'm sure no track takes pleasure in the inconvenience a cancelation of a race or races or an entire card creates. That goes from Gulfstream's disappointing opening day, to the winter cancelations at Aqueduct and other winter spots to the almost unheard-of scrapping of the card at Santa Anita on Sunday.

takeout

01-10-2005, 01:28 PM

a serious problem at Aqueduct, an ongoing issue that doesn't seem to be getting resolved.
Same thing went on at Charles Town for years without being resolved. Tracks being way overdue for a rebuild seems to be just one more of racing’s many chronic problems.

takeout

01-10-2005, 01:30 PM

Passero is no deal either.

Why do you say that?

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 02:39 PM

But even a NYRA guy like yourself has to recognize that this has become a serious problem at Aqueduct, an ongoing issue that doesn't seem to be getting resolved.

I'm not sure why you would classify 2 or 3 cancellations into January 10 as a serious problem? This is the winter time. I'd expect a cancellation here or there. It happens every winter.

01-10-2005, 02:49 PM

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Growing up in Maryland, I can remember a full week going by with no racing. Water, wind, cold, snow, whatever, it happens.

BillW

01-10-2005, 02:54 PM

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Growing up in Maryland, I can remember a full week going by with no racing. Water, wind, cold, snow, whatever, it happens.

When I was there last December, that happened :eek:

The Hawk

01-10-2005, 03:04 PM

I'm not sure why you would classify 2 or 3 cancellations into January 10 as a serious problem? This is the winter time. I'd expect a cancellation here or there. It happens every winter.

It DOES happen every winter. When it snows. Or when it thaws. Not when it's well above freezing and it rains. If that were the case they'd cancel three times a week at Saratoga. And the Charles Town reference is appropriate, as that's the exact point. Everyone wants to hold NYRA up as the greatest racing in the world, and then when it turns out their surface and/or track maintenance is sub-par it's "well, these things happen at Charles Town, too."

Whatever. We'll agree to disagree. I don't want Observer to think I'm "reveling in other people's mistakes, or misfortune." By the way, while this is certainly true....

After a certain point, it has to become understandable that a surface simply can not tolerate any more water, but it's not like you can turn off the rain or turn the temperature and/or wind up...

...it has nothing to do with what happened here. We're talking about a day of rain, not a monsoon, or a week's worth of precipitation.

For those who are disenchanted with the argumentative tones on the board, and in life, in general, how's about something positive (and it's true): PA, I love the new site format.

OTM Al

01-10-2005, 03:06 PM

I think Aqueduct has only lost one full card and then Saturday's partial so far this year. That's doing pretty good. Last year had several cancellations. In a way I was kind of glad they cancelled. That track is not very hard for me to read when frozen, but when it's wet I find it very confusing. Cancellation cased me to concentrate much more on GP than I usually do, which led me to a couple nice scores on saturday, so no complaints from me!

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 05:01 PM

I too do not wish to keep this going, but I will say that it was raining ALL WEEK prior to Saturday's cancellation, and here are the official Kennedy Airport figs:

Monday: .24 inches
Tuesday: .07 inches
Wednesday: .28 inches
Thursday: .39 inches
Friday: Trace
Saturday: .56 inches

So we had pretty steady rain all week leading up to Saturday's all day rain.....with temperatures hovering around freezing for the lows Wednesday through Saturday....nothing was drying out....

And I'm glad you like the new format! :)

Steve 'StatMan'

01-10-2005, 05:15 PM

If the weather was hovering between freezing and non-freezing all week, and you had precipitation all week, there's a very good chance of the track being muddy. We experience that in Chicago often during winter/spring racing, and sometimes in the late fall/early winter.

The water gets into the ground and freezes. Later, when the temeratures warm up, the ice beneath the ground thaws, and the water rises to the surface up and into the cushion, making the track muddy. The muddy/thawing conditions are the typical cause of the Feb/March cancellations in Chicago, as it can make for a very wet and slippery track, even when there is no rain the day before.

Suff

01-10-2005, 06:16 PM

Damn... why we arguing about rain levels?

They are bringing in another guy. Another "winter guy" from Maryland.
And they are putting him in charge of the guy who was/is in charge of Track maintence. Thats not a clue that someone besides me and Hawk believe the saturday cancel was weather and "other issues"?

I'm not trying to be negative , nor was I NY. I was in Boston... But I have enough INNER and NYRA experience, as well as enough winter racing experience to make a judgement that they have raced in worse conditions.

I think The Jocks room has a "Us vs Them" attitude right now. And the 15-3 vote supports that. And I think there has been criticism of Poricelli. And the new hire supports that. It could be viewed as a Good thing. At least they are responding. And I do hope that the move was justified and not some hack move, or patronage deal.

But don't misunderstand me. I'm being negative to be negative. I know Jerry. I'm sorta Friendly with him. Who do you think brings me onto the track at Saratoga every year? Jerry! I've introduced a few guys on the board to him. He's a super guy. I'm distressed they demoted him? Or whatever they did.

PA.. I'll tell you a quick story about Him and I. A couple of years ago when I came down to Aqueduct, I brought a Red Sox shirt and Cap for Him. As a way of saying thank you for the way he treats me at Saratoga. He's a real Ambassador for NYRA and racing. You may know, he's a HUGE Yankees Fan. And the shirt and cap were sort of GAG gifts. So anyway, he opened them up and takes a look, and immediattely throws them in the Barrel. When I left his office they were still in there. The next Time I saw him I asked "What did you ever do with that Red Sox Shirt I gave you"? He said "I gave it to some homeless guy on the street in Manhattan"! LMAO! He's a Funny guy. Thats the extent of our friendship.. I bust his chops about the Yankees and he Busts mine about the Sox.

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 06:27 PM

Damn... why we arguing about rain levels?

Because some here are trying to argue that the weather itself couldn't possibly be the only cause for Saturday's cancellation. Ockham's razor says these people are probably wrong.

Suff

01-10-2005, 06:32 PM

* When a new set of facts requires the creation of a new theory the process is far from the orderly picture often presented in books. Many hypothses are proposed, studied, rejected. Researchers discuss their validity (sometimes quite heatedly) proposing experiments which will determine the validity of one or the other, exposing flaws in their least favorite ones, etc. Yet, even when the unfit hypotheses are discarded, several options may remain, in some cases making the exact same predictions, but having very different underlying assumptions. In order to choose among these possible theories a very useful tool is what is called Ockham's razor.

Suff

01-10-2005, 06:35 PM

Because some here are trying to argue that the weather itself couldn't possibly be the only cause for Saturday's cancellation. Ockham's razor says these people are probably wrong.

They have REPLACED the Track superentendent. Is he retiring? Or is the track Conditioning an Issue at NYRA? What do you think? When you stop whistling in the dark. Ponder it.

PaceAdvantage

01-10-2005, 07:21 PM

OK. You guys are right. It's 99% NYRA + outgoing track super's fault, and 1% mother nature's fault.

NYRA sucks.

"Go Frank Go"

:rolleyes:

Suff

01-10-2005, 07:43 PM

I'd say it was more

57% Weather

27% Track personell's frustration with track maintenance

16% Jockeys aren't on the "team"

The Hawk

01-10-2005, 09:50 PM

Because some here are trying to argue that the weather itself couldn't possibly be the only cause for Saturday's cancellation. Ockham's razor says these people are probably wrong.

Again, we'll agree to disagree. I think it's a track maintenance issue. PA thinks it's solely the weather. But the bigger question: on what other horse racing board would you get an Ockham's razor reference?

PaceAdvantage

01-11-2005, 01:38 AM

I love this place! :D

Tee

01-11-2005, 02:37 AM

PA,

U should have just said something along the lines of - if it walks like a duck....

Did u just see Contact or something? :D

Suff

01-11-2005, 09:07 AM

Ockham's razor says these people are probably wrong.

Perhaps.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/37849.htm

"After the first race, there were some issues. We pointed them out to [track superintendent] Jerry Porcelli, they were addressed, and the track was fine for the second race. But after the third, the riders said the racetrack was falling apart, we're losing it. There are some big washouts. The only good parts are right along the fence or in the five path or further out, and you can't ride horses that way."

Migliore said track maintenance wasn't to blame, that Aqueduct's winterized inner dirt track simply isn't able to handle heavy rains.

"Porcelli does a good job. [The washouts] are due to circumstances beyond anyone's control," said the Mig, who's been riding over the IDT for more than 20 years. "This is a fantastic track in cold weather. The problem perennially has been, it reaches a saturation point when there's too much water."

You would agree that he had to be asked.. "Was or is track maintenance a Problem?"

and... That fact he goes to bat for Poricelli is good, but alsio indicates he is reacting to criticism of said subject.

the little guy

01-11-2005, 09:55 AM

Jerry Porcelli IS a nice guy.

However, while everyone makes many of their own choices in life ( thankfully ), if I was Track Superintendant, and for some silly reason I chose to appear on TV every day, on a show watched by a lot of people locally, I might not say something ( like )...." yeah, it took me a few races to figure out the track yesterday, but once I did, I hit the last five exactas ".

Ya know, something like that gives a lot of credence to the many crazies who believe a track super can and does manipulate a racing surface ( for perhaps nefarious reasons ).

Having said that, Jerry was probably demoted because he wasn't getting the job done, but silly performances like that certainly didn't make him look good.