Nyra Stewards

[Brisk Urging]

3rd race the 9 wiped the entire field causing the 6 a placing no takedown..

Tough meet so far for Nyra stewards

[$w1fT]

It’s Irad so nothing happens. Bulletproof.

[wisconsin]

A drone shot would have helped. California tracks and even Horseshoe Indianapolis uses a drone shot for inquiries.

[Brisk Urging]

A drone shot would have helped. California tracks and even Horseshoe Indianapolis uses a drone shot for inquiries.

Huh did you watch the start?

[wisconsin]

Huh did you watch the start?


I posted immediately in the DQ thread. It was another BS non-call.

[Brisk Urging]

I posted immediately in the DQ thread. It was another BS non-call.


Apology

[$w1fT]

The spill in race 7 is the result of poor stewardship. And I STILL think the horse doesn’t get DQ’d if it’s Irad and not Dylan Davis

[Al Gobbi]

The spill in race 7 is the result of poor stewardship. And I STILL think the horse doesn’t get DQ’d if it’s Irad and not Dylan Davis

is there even a DQ if Cancel doesn’t get thrown to the turf?

[$w1fT]

is there even a DQ if Cancel doesn’t get thrown to the turf?

Of course not. It takes a horse almost dying for the stewards to wake up.

NYRA had an awful day today.

[Big Peps]

Of course not. It takes a horse almost dying for the stewards to wake up.

NYRA had an awful day today.


It was a rough day for sure. The spill, the brake down, the break where Irad took out 1/2 the field. all the gate scratches, which isn't that bad but combined with everything else not a great day for Saratoga.

Was a shame that Amoss' 4,000th victory included a catastrophic injury

[Al Gobbi]

Of course not. It takes a horse almost dying for the stewards to wake up.

NYRA had an awful day today.

seven racing day suspension for Dylan

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/262168/jockey-davis-receives-7-day-suspension-for-spa-spill

[BarchCapper]

seven racing day suspension for Dylan

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/262168/jockey-davis-receives-7-day-suspension-for-spa-spill

It feels like we can call these "How dare you think you're Irad!" suspensions.

[$w1fT]

seven racing day suspension for Dylan

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/262168/jockey-davis-receives-7-day-suspension-for-spa-spill

Rules for me not for thee

[Tom]

Days for Dylan but none for the villian. :)

[burnsy]

3rd race the 9 wiped the entire field causing the 6 a placing no takedown..

Tough meet so far for Nyra stewards

I saw it. But this is a General problem throughout racing and enforcing the rules . In just about every jurisdiction. Somehow the start is not equally weighted with the stretch or turns. The jockeys know this too. A lot of uncalled shenanigans at the start. I mean, if you can pull it off in the BC Classic…… that’s a message that almost anything goes. It’s not just about disciplining and punishment of an individual. The penalties are also meted out to send a message and make an example. Rules are meant to be bent in high level competition. If there’s no deterrent……. Well…,,, what do people expect?

[Tom]

I think the NYRA stewards are sending a clear message to the jckeys......:rolleyes:

[v j stauffer]

I saw it. But this is a General problem throughout racing and enforcing the rules . In just about every jurisdiction. Somehow the start is not equally weighted with the stretch or turns. The jockeys know this too. A lot of uncalled shenanigans at the start. I mean, if you can pull it off in the BC Classic…… that’s a message that almost anything goes. It’s not just about disciplining and punishment of an individual. The penalties are also meted out to send a message and make an example. Rules are meant to be bent in high level competition. If there’s no deterrent……. Well…,,, what do people expect?

Juding the start is a slippery slope. Not unlike holding in the NFL you could technically throw a flag on almost every play.

Do smart riders shave and take an edge at the start? Sure, they do. But we Stewards are pretty smart too and can watch for a continued pattern of pushing the envelope.

It's all about the opportunity to recover from a possible foul. Does losing a couple lengths at the start mean as much as the sixteenth pole?

Mathematically yes. Practically, not so much.

People who don't think suspensions are a deterrent are wrong. Getting a three day suspension is a VERY big deal. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Not only no money for three days. Most horses you lose to other riders are gone for more than just one race. Especially if the horse wins. Very unlikely they'll take the new pilot off for the next few starts.

Stewarding as it relates to race reviews is EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE. It's not a perfect system but IMO it's the best available.

I know I'm in the minority here. But by and large I think the North American Steward do a pretty darn good, consistent job.

Just like an umpire with a bang bang play at first. No matter what you call. Half the people watching are going to be pissed. Comes with the territory.

I appreciate anyone who puts themselves in the firing line and tries to promote an unbiased, level playing field.

[dilanesp]

Stewards do a decent job. And I generally oppose DQ's at the start unless we are absolutely certain it eliminated a horse from contention. (Remember, lots of horses recover from trouble at the start.)

But we should get rid of the designated race rule- maybe we'd need a voter initiative or something in California because the racing commission is in thrall to the owners and jockeys who love the rule. No other sport says "the poor owner will be hurt because someone is suspended". Baseball just suspended the heck out of Fernando Tatis Jr. They didn't tell the Padres "we'll let you use them in big games anyway".

[v j stauffer]

Stewards do a decent job. And I generally oppose DQ's at the start unless we are absolutely certain it eliminated a horse from contention. (Remember, lots of horses recover from trouble at the start.)

But we should get rid of the designated race rule- maybe we'd need a voter initiative or something in California because the racing commission is in thrall to the owners and jockeys who love the rule. No other sport says "the poor owner will be hurt because someone is suspended". Baseball just suspended the heck out of Fernando Tatis Jr. They didn't tell the Padres "we'll let you use them in big games anyway".

Many well intentioned rules can be manipulated for personal gain. That happens often with this rule.

However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.

Can see good arguments on both sides. I'd be inclined to NOT rescind the rule.

[westernmassbob]

Juding the start is a slippery slope. Not unlike holding in the NFL you could technically throw a flag on almost every play.

“Do smart riders shave and take an edge at the start? Sure, they do. But we Stewards are pretty smart too and can watch for a continued pattern of pushing the envelope.”

What exactly do you mean by that ? Like you believe jockeys are intentionally coming out of the gate and interfering with other horses so they are in a better spot? I hardly believe that’s going on because that’s extremely dangerous for both parties involved. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze....or in this case the squeeze isn’t worth the juice.

[dilanesp]

However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.



That actually describes the Padres quite well. :)

[Al Gobbi]

Many well intentioned rules can be manipulated for personal gain. That happens often with this rule.

However, your analogy of the Padres doesn't resonate for me.

Some dedicated owners might go decades between chances at winning an important Stake.

Can see good arguments on both sides. I'd be inclined to NOT rescind the rule.

The BHA allows jockeys to ride in Group 1 races if they are serving a suspension of four days or less, provided they don't appeal it.

perhaps a similar rule could be implemented here - possibly including allowing them to ride in any stake (graded or ungraded) with an purse amount of a certain high value?

[v j stauffer]

What exactly do you mean by that ? Like you believe jockeys are intentionally coming out of the gate and interfering with other horses so they are in a better spot? I hardly believe that’s going on because that’s extremely dangerous for both parties involved. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze....or in this case the squeeze isn’t worth the juice.

Every great race rider ever dances on a fine line between dangerous and a foul and tactical edges.

Arcaro, Cordero, Pincay, Gomez and many more.

Believe it.

[v j stauffer]

The BHA allows jockeys to ride in Group 1 races if they are serving a suspension of four days or less, provided they don't appeal it.

perhaps a similar rule could be implemented here - possibly including allowing them to ride in any stake (graded or ungraded) with an purse amount of a certain high value?


Here in North America a jock can ride in one "designated" race during his suspension.

If he rides in more than one he must serve another reciprocal day.

When I say reciprocal, I mean if he rides two Stakes on a Saturday he can't serve the additional day on a sleepy Wednesday.

[Suff]

I saw it. But this is a General problem throughout racing and enforcing the rules . In just about every jurisdiction. Somehow the start is not equally weighted with the stretch or turns. The jockeys know this too. A lot of uncalled shenanigans at the start. I mean, if you can pull it off in the BC Classic…… that’s a message that almost anything goes. It’s not just about disciplining and punishment of an individual. The penalties are also meted out to send a message and make an example. Rules are meant to be bent in high level competition. If there’s no deterrent……. Well…,,, what do people expect?

"We don't adjudicate gate fouls".

It breaks my heart to hear. A hard pill. It probably goes down easier with a peppermint. I tell u the enemy is not peta or horse racing wrongs. The enemy is horse lovers want to be pet owners. In order to be on TV you have to agree.

[westernmassbob]

Every great race rider ever dances on a fine line between dangerous and a foul and tactical edges.

Arcaro, Cordero, Pincay, Gomez and many more.

Believe it.

I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.

[elhelmete]

I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.

Really?

[westernmassbob]

Really?

Yes really. Also to add to that horses smashing out of gate before start, rearing up, getting stuck in get. All accident situations that can involve more then one horse at the same time. It just seems like the worst possible moment for a jockey to make a dangerous choice just to get some type of advantage. Again, a high percentage of race accidents happen at the gate.

[westernmassbob]

Really?


“The most frequent location where injury events occurred was entering, within, or leaving the starting gate (35.1%) (Figure 2). Of all injury events, 14.2% occurred in the turns and 15.9% occurred in the home stretch or at the finish line. The most frequently reported causes of injury were being thrown from the horse (44.4%), crushed (9.6%), and flipped and pinned (7.5%). Being struck by the horse's head accounted for 5.3% of injuries, being jerked accounted for 3.7%, and falls accounted for 3.3%. The location of the injury event on the track and the cause of injury were not reported for 18.9% and 8.1% of the injuries, respectively.”

[elhelmete]

So flipping in the gate should be actionable by stewards?

[westernmassbob]

So flipping in the gate should be actionable by stewards?

Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.

[elhelmete]

Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.

Oh I see, so a jockey should get days if the horse flips in the gate or is held by the gate crew?

[westernmassbob]

Oh I see, so a jockey should get days if the horse flips in the gate or is held by the gate crew?

Nah man you are so confused. It doesn’t have to be a jockeys fault for accidents to happen or a steward to review one. I’ve seen gate breaks where a jockey had zero control of the horse and was taken down for interference. I think you are confusing the type of accidents and what causes them.

[elhelmete]

Nah man you are so confused. It doesn’t have to be a jockeys fault for accidents to happen or a steward to review one. I’ve seen gate breaks where a jockey had zero control of the horse and was taken down for interference. I think you are confusing the type of accidents and what causes them.

Isn't this thread about jocks wiping out half the field at the break?

I don't think I'm confused, I think I'm trying to stay on topic.

[Al Gobbi]

People who don't think suspensions are a deterrent are wrong. Getting a three day suspension is a VERY big deal. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Not only no money for three days. Most horses you lose to other riders are gone for more than just one race. Especially if the horse wins. Very unlikely they'll take the new pilot off for the next few starts.


I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.

[westernmassbob]

Isn't this thread about jocks wiping out half the field at the break?

I don't think I'm confused, I think I'm trying to stay on topic.

Yup your confused. The topic clearly states “ NYRA Stewards”

Of course just like every thread on here it branches off into different topics. It’s ok though. Clearly there is lots to learn.

[westernmassbob]

I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.

Good point. Great trainers and jockeys go hand in hand. They don’t want to upset each other’s Apple cart even if there is a blip or two in regards to suspensions or urgent family matters. IDC what the reason is ...if you miss a mount but you regularly ride for said top trainer and horse you get that mount back when you come back. There would be huge animosity issues otherwise. It probably has happened though.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yup your confused. The topic clearly states “ NYRA Stewards”It should say "obsessed with the best, obviously"

[v j stauffer]

I 100% agree with this during the race however at the gate break not so much. We have seen many times when a horse breaks it can take a right or left hand turn causing massive collisions. There is no way I believe this to be intentional on a jockeys behalf to gain a tactical edge. IMO the gate break is the most dangerous park of a horse race. Horses clip heels, fall down and run erratic more so at the break then any other time during a race. We will just have to agree to disagree that a jockey at that moment would intentionally create a foul to get a “ tactical “edge.

I'm not suggesting it's something that happens commonly.

I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.

Stewards have a saying they tell jocks. " first jump yours 2nd jump ours"

If a horse is going to break inward or outward dramatically there's not much a jock can do. Stewards watch for how quickly they correct.

Another fine line that great riders toe is setting traps for less experienced jocks.

They can make it "appear" there's a hole or a way through that will in fact never work.

Jocks will sometimes take the bait and move into a spot they shouldn't. One of a myriad of ways a great rider can exploit the weaknesses of guys with less talent or experience.

[v j stauffer]

Well in some cases it has. If the gate opens and a horse flips in gate and doesn’t have a fair start stewards have made decisions to declare horses as non starters.

The decision Stewards must make is very clear. If a horse flips in the gate they will ask two questions and only two questions.

1. Did the starting gate function properly? Can the horse flipping be blamed on a malfunction of the gate?

2. Was there any human error involved? This can happen in a few ways. By far the most common is did the assistant starter release the bridle in such a manner as to allow for a fair start?

If the answer to those two questions is YES.

A horse will NOT be declared a NON STARTER.

[v j stauffer]

I completely disagree with this view in 2022. If you are a top rider who rides frequency for a super trainer in NY, CA or KY you will be just fine even if you get a suspension or two.

Several jocks in NY and KY (including 2nd and 3rd tier riders) make double or triple the amount of money they would have 10-15 year ago due to the inflated purses.

Elite riders are riding for more and bigger purses than ever before. The depth of talented riders is vast.

Missing days is also much more expensive and damaging to business because of this prosperity.

Sure they'll be fine.

But believe me they HATE being suspended and how it affects their business!!

[dilanesp]

I'm not suggesting it's something that happens commonly.

I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.

Stewards have a saying they tell jocks. " first jump yours 2nd jump ours"

If a horse is going to break inward or outward dramatically there's not much a jock can do. Stewards watch for how quickly they correct.

Another fine line that great riders toe is setting traps for less experienced jocks.

They can make it "appear" there's a hole or a way through that will in fact never work.

Jocks will sometimes take the bait and move into a spot they shouldn't. One of a myriad of ways a great rider can exploit the weaknesses of guys with less talent or experience.

I think there's truth to this, and honestly, I wouldn't want a sport that tried so minutely to adjudicate fouls that it took the strategic element of race-riding away. Some of the race-riding things Vic is talking about are a fascinating part of the sport, in the same way that ball fakes in basketball and zone blitzes in football are. I wouldn't want to see them go or all have to be adjudicated by the stewards.

[westernmassbob]

“I am saying extremely talented jocks are capable of gaining tactical edges in scenarios where less talented riders cannot.”


I would say give us some examples please. The way I see it is that all jockeys are not treated as equals. My example would be Irad Oritz. Irad is considered one of the best jockeys in the world. Clearly he is capable of gaining tactical edges throughout a race. Let’s be honest though. The same things he does to gain those advantages another lesser successful rider would be scrutinized for doing. Irad does his classic herding move to the rail. He takes away another horses/jockeys chances of winning by doing some unsavory and disrespectful type moves. Of course he will continue to do this because of his great success. Sadly though if other jockeys try this there is always a different outcome. So in my opinion Irad has what I would call “ Jockey Privilege”.

[v j stauffer]

I think there's truth to this, and honestly, I wouldn't want a sport that tried so minutely to adjudicate fouls that it took the strategic element of race-riding away. Some of the race-riding things Vic is talking about are a fascinating part of the sport, in the same way that ball fakes in basketball and zone blitzes in football are. I wouldn't want to see them go or all have to be adjudicated by the stewards.

I don't think Stewards are adjudicating race riding tactics. In fact we may point out instances to a greener rider who takes the bait to be more cautious.

If you ever happen to be in the Stewards stand you'll hear them shouting the same thing every few races. " In or out jock. Get in or out"

I sometimes even say it in race calls.

Stewards get VERY nervous when they see a "bad formation" about to materialize. You can see it coming before it actually happens.

Elite riders can sense this too and will "take the pressure" off. Sometimes Stewards who see that will call down to the room to praise and thank the rider who gave another rider a "shot" rather than forcing him to stay in a spot he should never have gotten in to.

So much goes on out there that's only obvious to other riders and the trained eye of the stewards.

I love talking to riders and listening to them speak of the nuances of what's happening on the track. I've learned a ton by listening to jocks analyze films. Jermaine Bridgmohan and Tyler Baze are especially good at that.

I once asked Laffit about being afraid out there.

He said I'm only afraid of one thing..." A rider that's NEVER afraid"

[Al Gobbi]

Irad nearly dropped Luis Saez down the backstretch in the 11th at Aqueduct yesterday

of course the stewards did nothing other than taking a look at it for a few minutes and will probably let Irad skate away again

[Tom]

Ladies and gentlemen, there is a claim of foul in the 11th race,
The stewards will examine their tickets. :lol: