Interesting Post Position Questions

[Turfday]

Let's say you're handicapping a 12 horse field going 7 furlongs the night before the races the next day. Next day, horses from posts 1 & 2 scratch. There has been a noticeable anti-inside bias at the track you are handicapping. Or let's say, for the most part, the inside posts are unfavorable. Is there any absolute RULE that states the rest of the horses in the field from posts 3-12 HAVE to move inside two slots? Since post positions are drawn, what if some trainers don't want to be shuffled inside two posts?

Here's another question. Same circumstance. 12-horse field going 7 furlongs. Let's say the horses drawn in posts 1 & 2 are BOTH scratched at the gate. The race is slightly delayed. The horses are moved out of the gate and walked around. When they RE-LOAD, is it mandatory for horses 3-12 to be moved inside two posts? What happens if a horse from post 1 and say, post 6, both are late scratches. When they re-load the horses, what happens then? Must horses 7-12 move inside? Must horses 2-6 move inside? Are there set rules for this? Does it vary from state to state?

My own feeling is that horses should stay put in the posts they drew at entry time. I know this isn't the case, because in examining our Equibase database, there do not ever seem to be "gaps" between post positions after scratches, early, late or at the gate.

I'm not at all being facetious. I really would like some answers.

[schweitz]

I,too, have always wondered about this and would prefer everybody just stay at the original posts.

[BillW]

I know at some tracks they will leave the one hole open under certain conditions. I'm not sure what they are, but I do know that the 1 horse scratching does not necessarily mean that the field will be moved to the inside. Also for post time scratches, some tracks will allow time for adjusting wagers by pulling the field out of the gate while others just load and go (I haven't taken note but probably without changing post positions). Obviously there are no standard rules and possibly no track specific rules either.

[Turfday]

I've been following racing for more than 30 years and I've often pondered my questions above.

I would think, it certain situations, a late scratch, a scratch in the post parade or at the gate, could shift horses from their original post positions that they drew, and in theory, affect the outcome.

More importantly, would it or should it affect our wagers? Obviously, if we were betting the horse in post three, who now gets shuffled to the rail...well, you know where I'm going.

I hope someone knows if there are definitive answers.

[rokitman]

Every time I've paid attention to this they've moved them in. It would be unfair disadvantage being imposed on the outside horses by the connections of the inner horse(s) if they could decide for themselves. You could argue that is not necessarily a disavantage but who is to determine that? And on a race to race basis? Stewards? Giggle. Only consistent and fair thing to do is move them in.

[Turfday]

no message

[rokitman]

12 horse field. 4 middle horses scratch. Leave the 111100001111? Seems a very half-arsed way to do business. The post positions were drawn for a 12 horse field. It's no longer a 12 horse field.

[Turfday]

no message

[ratpack]

I have also seen tracks move PP 1 out as much as 4 slots when lots of rain has made the inside part of the trak a mess.

[Pace Cap'n]

Looking at the 9th at Aqu. today...

How could the 1 and 1A both be on the also-eligibles? 10:00AM Eastern and no scratches listed yet. Who knows what hole any of them are coming out?

[mountainman]

this issue has occured to me before and, thinking viewers of mountaineer's simulcast show might be interested, i queried our official starter a few months back. was informed that gaps in gate are never permitted. further learned that scratch from outer half of field results in outer horses moving in, and visa versa when horse is scratched from 1-5 post. since mountaineer's gate capacity is 12 , but field size restricted to 10, horse assigned rail post customarily breaks from two slot(and, in fields of 7 or less, inside horse actually breaks from post position three). under no circumstance would inside scratches result in #3 horse being moved to rail post.

[Buddha]

i queried our official starter a few months back. was informed that gaps in gate are never permitted.

as asked about some of the earlier posts about late scratches, possibly at the gate, I have seen some tracks that when they scratch they still loadem and go, just leave the stall the scratched horse would have occupied empty. It is probably a different rule track to track or at least state to state.

[mountainman]

don't recall wv rulebook addressing such contingencies ....authority of official starter to dictate and implement policy seems almost limitless on matters like this

[Steve 'StatMan']

I don't know anything 'Official', but at AP the inside at the 6f and 1 mile chute have been poor the last few years. They had been leaving hole #1 empty. Now this past year, they changed from having the tractor on the outside to the inside nearest the rail. Did it help? Not really, the big gap seemed to cause horses to want to angle to the rail to get away from the scramble of all those rivals, although often the field managed to stay wide all the way out of the chute.

I think the reason they don't want gaps between horses is that many horses will see the open space when they break and run toward it, again, to get away from being so close to others. However, when horses start running at angles, and/or horses inside and outside run toward the free space, they tend to bump quite a bit, and sometimes soundly. We see it in Chicago a lot when a horse breaks poorly, leaving a spot, and then the rivals from each side angle in and out and into each other, and pinch the slow starter back or maybe pinball him.

[Hosshead]

I see gate scratches with empty stalls. Otherwise they'd have to move all the numbers above each stall.

[hurrikane]

I have seen it both ways. Moving them and not moving them.
No rythm or reason.

as for the numbers and post numbers. The numbers of the horses have nothing to do with the post position numbers.