Equineer/Formula, here's a 'draft army' for ya...

[sq764]

VOLUNTEER ARMY - Iraq - less than 40 confirmed military 'deserters'

DRAFT - Vietnam - 5,000 confirmed military deserters

DRAFT - WWII - 20,000 confirmed military deserters


Yeah, another draft sure would strengthen the military.. It certainly shows how effective a military is when they don't want to be there...

Thank God we have more rational minds in office to make brighter decisions than your's..

[Equineer]

I see that you have started a new thread to escape the dark shadow of shame cast upon you by Colin Powell's words.

We know what you really mean by "don't want to be there." Historically, a very small percentage of our mentally competent draftees have actually deserted although it is "irrational" for anyone to "want to be there."

Fear is not irrational... but a masquerade to hide it creates a foul stench!

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey vEtQUINEER......

Perhaps your next incarnation on this board should carry the moniker "ARTFUL DODGER"

You are the master of the "spin and weave"

Were you the king (or queen) of dodgeball in gym class when you were growing up?

[lsbets]

Colin Powel doesn't favor a draft Vetscratch. He did not approve of the way the draft was handled in Vietnam - that has zero to do with today's military. Not too many people involved with today's military favor the draft. There is a reason for that - a draft would not benefit us militarily in any way, shape, or form. The draft is the boogeyman of the left, talk of it is supposed to scare middle America into voting for Dems, but the only ones who have proposed bills favoring the draft are Democarats.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Equineer
I see that you have started a new thread to escape the dark shadow of shame cast upon you by Colin Powell's words.

We know what you really mean by "don't want to be there." Historically, a very small percentage of our mentally competent draftees have actually deserted although it is "irrational" for anyone to "want to be there."

Fear is not irrational... but a masquerade to hide it creates a foul stench!

Actually I got tired of hearing someone who's never even been close to a recruiter's office, let alone a frontline, criticize a generation.. Leaving you with the last word showed how much of a hypocritical ass you are...Anywho........

[sq764]

Originally posted by Equineer
I see that you have started a new thread to escape the dark shadow of shame cast upon you by Colin Powell's words.

We know what you really mean by "don't want to be there." Historically, a very small percentage of our mentally competent draftees have actually deserted although it is "irrational" for anyone to "want to be there."

Fear is not irrational... but a masquerade to hide it creates a foul stench!

Historically, as you say, we have had 10,000% more deserters in non-volunteer armies than in volunteer ones...Am I to assume, by your comments, that 23-24,000 of the 25,000 mentioned are 'mentally incompetent'?

[Equineer]

Lsbets,

Colin Powell has always advocated the use of overwhelming force to achieve a rapid and totally decisive victory. However, by his own estimate, we now face the prospect of being bogged down in Iraq for possibly up to seven years, until 2008, primarily because even Pat Robertson's assessment of the challenge was far more accurate than Bush's perception, notwithstanding all the advisory resources at his command.

It is no secret in Washington that loyal soldier Powell was opposed to invading Iraq before we were sufficiently mobilized to occupy and stabilize Iraq after Saddam's regime was toppled.

Historically, we have never maintained a professional peace-time military apparatus to accomplish in populations like Iraq what we did when we occupied Japan and Germany after we were fully mobilized.

Your proposition would have practical merit only if democracies were constantly geared for war, but this is contrary to the rationale for espousing democratic principles. Past and present history reflects that the most democratic of nations are loathe to mobilize as if war is necessary to foster and spread democratic ideals.

Of course Powell and other commanders would prefer an all-professional military force capable of confronting any challenge, but lacking that as a practical matter, his autobiographical statements in "My American Journey" were intended to condemn repeating the democratic inequities inherent in our Vietnam draft.

What he was obligated to tell the United Nations or say in support of Bush and Rumsfeld will bear further scrutiny when he publishes his reflections on Iraq like he did Vietnam... and everyone in Washington is already speculating about the size of his book deal offers.

We are entering the third year of war in Iraq. If we can't withdraw until 2008, how stupid does that make Bush's directive to Tommie Franks look when he ordered Franks to submit a plan for troop withdrawals in 2004, as he prepared for his "Mission Accomplished" photo op.

The military experts who foresaw a minimum requirement for 250,000 to 300,000 troops in Iraq fully expect Powell will soon join Schwarzkopf in condemning our strategy in Iraq. Meanwhile, it is a pipedream to expect that our lesson in Iraq will influence vote-conscious politicians to ask taxpayers to fund a standing professional military force that can meet all contingencies.

A draft isn't a scare tactic... just a sobering reality if we ever consider "democratizing" Iran or North Korea. Politicians who are afraid to legislate equitable draft procedures prior to the necessity of actually activating a lottery are sending a message of encouragement to our enemies.

=====

SQ764,

You seem to admire the "rationality" of the deserters more than the patriotic valor of those that fought despite misgivings about the ethics or sanity of warfare.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Equineer
Lsbets,

Colin Powell has always advocated the use of overwhelming force to achieve a rapid and totally decisive victory. However, by his own estimate, we now face the prospect of being bogged down in Iraq for possibly up to seven years, until 2008, primarily because even Pat Robertson's assessment of the challenge was far more accurate than Bush's perception, notwithstanding all the advisory resources at his command.

It is no secret in Washington that loyal soldier Powell was opposed to invading Iraq before we were sufficiently mobilized to occupy and stabilize Iraq after Saddam's regime was toppled.

Historically, we have never maintained a professional peace-time military apparatus to accomplish in populations like Iraq what we did when we occupied Japan and Germany after we were fully mobilized.

Your proposition would have practical merit only if democracies were constantly geared for war, but this is contrary to the rationale for espousing democratic principles. Past and present history reflects that the most democratic of nations are loathe to mobilize as if war is necessary to foster and spread democratic ideals.

Of course Powell and other commanders would prefer an all-professional military force capable of confronting any challenge, but lacking that as a practical matter, his autobiographical statements in "My American Journey" were intended to condemn repeating the democratic inequities inherent in our Vietnam draft.

What he was obligated to tell the United Nations or say in support of Bush and Rumsfeld will bear further scrutiny when he publishes his reflections on Iraq like he did Vietnam... and everyone in Washington is already speculating about the size of his book deal offers.

We are entering the third year of war in Iraq. If we can't withdraw until 2008, how stupid does that make Bush's directive to Tommie Franks look when he ordered Franks to submit a plan for troop withdrawals in 2004, as he prepared for his "Mission Accomplished" photo op.

The military experts who foresaw a minimum requirement for 250,000 to 300,000 troops in Iraq fully expect Powell will soon join Schwarzkopf in condemning our strategy in Iraq. Meanwhile, it is a pipedream to expect that our lesson in Iraq will influence vote-conscious politicians to ask taxpayers to fund a standing professional military force that can meet all contingencies.

A draft isn't a scare tactic... just a sobering reality if we ever consider "democratizing" Iran or North Korea. Politicians who are afraid to legislate equitable draft procedures prior to the necessity of actually activating a lottery are sending a message of encouragement to our enemies.

=====

SQ764,

You seem to admire the "rationality" of the deserters more than the patriotic valor of those that fought despite misgivings about the ethics or sanity of warfare.

I support the war in Iraq, always have... You need soldiers to fight it, not deserters.. You know this and your attempt to hide the fact that a draft creating a better army is ridiculous is pathetic.

I am STILL waiting for you or Formula to give the benefits of a draft and how it would strengthen our army..

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by sq764
I support the war in Iraq, always have... You need soldiers to fight it, not deserters.. You know this and your attempt to hide the fact that a draft creating a better army is ridiculous is pathetic.

I am STILL waiting for you or Formula to give the benefits of a draft and how it would strengthen our army..

I will probably kick myself for joining in on this but here goes.

Two big benefits of a draft -

1. More bodies available on the ground.

2. Wealthy individuals may actually get to see their children visit Iraq with rifle in hand rather than the poor and middle class families.

It isn't just about creating a better army, but a larger one to do the job. We need boots and lots of them for a long time. McCain said this before the war and continues to say it.

One disturbing trend I read lately is that the suicide rate among Marines has gone up. This does not bode well as those Marines I knew were some of the toughest SOB's on the planet.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Secretariat
I will probably kick myself for joining in on this but here goes.

Two big benefits of a draft -

1. More bodies available on the ground.

2. Wealthy individuals may actually get to see their children visit Iraq with rifle in hand rather than the poor and middle class families.

It isn't just about creating a better army, but a larger one to do the job. We need boots and lots of them for a long time. McCain said this before the war and continues to say it.

One disturbing trend I read lately is that the suicide rate among Marines has gone up. This does not bode well as those Marines I knew were some of the toughest SOB's on the planet.

Do you ever think about weighing the 'benefit' of putting unwilling, unmotivated people out there to fight? Why do you think 20,000 people deserted in WWII?

2) What exactly is wrong with having the majority of soldiers from poor and middle class families?

[sq764]

Originally posted by Secretariat


One disturbing trend I read lately is that the suicide rate among Marines has gone up. This does not bode well as those Marines I knew were some of the toughest SOB's on the planet.

That's odd, the suicide rate among marines is down significantly in the past 10 years..

The Marines' rate is 12.6 per 100,000. During 1993, the Marines' rate was 20.9 per 100,000.

Maybe you are using that Democrat calculator that was used for the exit polls..

[Equineer]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Hey vEtQUINEER......

Perhaps your next incarnation on this board should carry the moniker "ARTFUL DODGER"

You are the master of the "spin and weave"

Were you the king (or queen) of dodgeball in gym class when you were growing up? I think you will find that I have supported our "citizen-soldier" tradition and the military draft since my first remarks on this topic several months ago.

(BTW, you are definitely earning the "20" that I proposed to owe you. :))

[Equineer]

Originally posted by sq764
That's odd, the suicide rate among marines is down significantly in the past 10 years..

The Marines' rate is 12.6 per 100,000. During 1993, the Marines' rate was 20.9 per 100,000.

Maybe you are using that Democrat calculator that was used for the exit polls.. SQ764,

About your suicide statistics, especially the significance of 1993...

Some critics have questioned the consistency of military methods for identifying volitional suicides, claiming that many suicides get classified as accidental deaths... however, there is a larger issue to consider.

For better or for worse, it was during 1993 when, whether right or wrong, "Don't ask, Don't Tell" was introduced as military policy. Suicide rates reportedly dropped thereafter... but the reason was quite ironic. Concurrent with being forced to accept gays, the military branches wisely sought to avoid the potential for protests and possible litigation by officially emphasizing that overt sexual harrassment of "suspected" gays could not be tolerated.

When gays had been barred prior to 1993, sustained harrassment of suspected closet gays was frequently suspect as a precipitator for military suicides. After 1993, the degree of such harrassment dropped in response to the threat of condemnation and possible litigation if a suicide was committed by a "legal" gay who refused to "come out" and accept a discharge.

Many years before 1993, I remember suspected gays being hassled as a means of testing their legitimacy. We thought nothing of it at the time.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by sq764
Do you ever think about weighing the 'benefit' of putting unwilling, unmotivated people out there to fight? Why do you think 20,000 people deserted in WWII?

2) What exactly is wrong with having the majority of soldiers from poor and middle class families?

In answer to your first point, sure I weigh the benefit of putting unwilling people out there to fight. We have many there now who are being held beyond their enlistment and who want to come home but are prohibited, and many of the Guard and IRR who don't want to be there.

Your second question is easy to answer. If you're wealthy then there's nothing wrong with having other people fight your wars.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Secretariat
In answer to your first point, sure I weigh the benefit of putting unwilling people out there to fight. We have many there now who are being held beyond their enlistment and who want to come home but are prohibited, and many of the Guard and IRR who don't want to be there.

Your second question is easy to answer. If you're wealthy then there's nothing wrong with having other people fight your wars.

You're going to send those stats on the household income of soldiers, right??

[lsbets]

Hey Sec, I'd love to compare my income from last year as a civilian and your income. I'm willing to bet that you would not call me poor by any definition of the word. I didn't realize that I was not supposed to be here because I make too much money.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
In answer to your first point, sure I weigh the benefit of putting unwilling people out there to fight. We have many there now who are being held beyond their enlistment and who want to come home but are prohibited, and many of the Guard and IRR who don't want to be there.


Define "Many"

[ljb]

From pa
"Define "Many" "

More then a few.
:D

[Tom]

Spin, weave, bob,and once agin, no facts, just crap thrown out and then a disappearance. Pathetic group, these libs.

[Secretariat]

SQ and Isbets,

Have been enjoying holidays and so just getting back to this.

As to SQ's questioning my post about more Marine suicides...Here's the NBC link from Dec. 21st on that.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4013618/detail.html

As to the quesiton of which class of society are being targeted by recruiters, I've attached a few links to peruse:

The Boston Globe which is an excellent read:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/29/military_recruiters_pursue_target_schools_carefull y/

Washington Congressman John McDermott's excellent speech earlier this year on the stop-loss orders and the need to offer huge re-enlistment incentives.

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp040120.shtml

Lastly, the Army's annual pay for active duty enlisted soliders:

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money.jsp#Full

Appears the officer pay isn't bad, but that for privates hovers under 20,000. I don't think too many congressman's kids will be enlisting for that.

Is,

As to comparing salaries, I'm not into that. I'm glad you're doing well in that regard. I'm doing OK too. My point was focused primarily on the income of those "entering the service". Those being targeted as the Globe points out are in lower and middle income situations, and NOT upper class kids.

[lsbets]

Well Sec, you leave out housing and food allowances, which adds up to a decent sum of money. Also, how much does the average kid out of high school make going into the job market? And at how many of those jobs do they get college paid for?

In terms of McDermott, I didn't even bother with the link. Using him to make a point of any kind is laughable.

[sq764]

SQ and Isbets,

Have been enjoying holidays and so just getting back to this.

As to SQ's questioning my post about more Marine suicides...Here's the NBC link from Dec. 21st on that.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4013618/detail.html

As to the quesiton of which class of society are being targeted by recruiters, I've attached a few links to peruse:

The Boston Globe which is an excellent read:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/29/military_recruiters_pursue_target_schools_carefull y/

Washington Congressman John McDermott's excellent speech earlier this year on the stop-loss orders and the need to offer huge re-enlistment incentives.

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp040120.shtml

Lastly, the Army's annual pay for active duty enlisted soliders:

http://www.goarmy.com/benefits/money.jsp#Full

Appears the officer pay isn't bad, but that for privates hovers under 20,000. I don't think too many congressman's kids will be enlisting for that.

Is,

As to comparing salaries, I'm not into that. I'm glad you're doing well in that regard. I'm doing OK too. My point was focused primarily on the income of those "entering the service". Those being targeted as the Globe points out are in lower and middle income situations, and NOT upper class kids.
\
Sec, did you bother to factor in the $100-150,000 in free college education they get?? You wouldn't want to add that into the mix would you, considering your figures would have to adjust upwards to +$25,000-$40,000 a year..

[lsbets]

Sec, I have kids in my company from every walk of life who joined the military for all different kinds of reasons. Some joined for college money, some joined for adventure, some joined because they felt like they should serve. Your posts insinuate that the military is primarily composed of the offspring of the dregs of society, and is pretty damned insulting to those of us who volunteered to wear the uniform.

[Tom]

Sec, I have kids in my company from every walk of life who joined the military for all different kinds of reasons. Some joined for college money, some joined for adventure, some joined because they felt like they should serve. Your posts insinuate that the military is primarily composed of the offspring of the dregs of society, and is pretty damned insulting to those of us who volunteered to wear the uniform.

What did you expect from someone who never lets facts get in the way?
You should know more than most, would you prefer to have things the way they are today, have more troops, manyl of whom do not want to be there?

[Secretariat]

Sec, I have kids in my company from every walk of life who joined the military for all different kinds of reasons. Some joined for college money, some joined for adventure, some joined because they felt like they should serve. Your posts insinuate that the military is primarily composed of the offspring of the dregs of society, and is pretty damned insulting to those of us who volunteered to wear the uniform.

The article by The Boston Globe couldn't be clearer. The recruiters are targeting lower and middle class individuals, not those of most congressmen's income. I find that insulting as well.

Nothing was said about benefits in the previous posts, only income, and as you can see by the Army's own site the income for Privates is less than 20,000 a year. And SQ, hazard pay for putting your life on line is certainly worth those benefits. It is interesting what a Halliburton consultant makes over in Iraq compared to the US soldier over there to keep him alive. Don't tell me the Army isn't targeting lower and middle class and ignoring higher class individuals. You can reassure yourself next time you're on the golf course with your buddies but you're not living in reality if you beleive there is a fair share of fighting by all US financial classes in the war in Iraq. You've got your info. You may not like it, but there it is. I don't think the wealthy classes need to worry about paying for their kids going to school, only lower and middle, particularly middle as the Globe article pointed out since they generally don't qualify for as much aid.

Isbets, I'm not questioning your particular motivation for joining or those of your individual unit, I'm using a reference to what is actually being paid by the Army's site, and the Boston Globe's article on its investigation into recruiting.

While you're reading the Globe article, take a look at this one. Will you be dancing for free? I hope not.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&ncid=2027&e=2&u=/chitribts/20041228/ts_chicagotrib/bushgalahasbigdonationspouringin

[Secretariat]

What did you expect from someone who never lets facts get in the way?
You should know more than most, would you prefer to have things the way they are today, have more troops, manyl of whom do not want to be there?

Tom,

I'm in favor of a draft with very few exemptions. Where all classes participate in foreign wars...How much more democratic can you get? Many don't want to be there today Tom, hence the stop-loss order with people held beyond their enlistments, the need to call up the reserves, and the 10,000 benefit for re-enlistments as cited in the Globe article.

Bring back the draft. What's your objection to everyone contributing to bringing democracy to Iraq?

[sq764]

The article by The Boston Globe couldn't be clearer. The recruiters are targeting lower and middle class individuals, not those of most congressmen's income. I find that insulting as well.

Nothing was said about benefits in the previous posts, only income, and as you can see by the Army's own site the income for Privates is less than 20,000 a year. And SQ, hazard pay for putting your life on line is certainly worth those benefits. It is interesting what a Halliburton consultant makes over in Iraq compared to the US soldier over there to keep him alive. Don't tell me the Army isn't targeting lower and middle class and ignoring higher class individuals. You can reassure yourself next time you're on the golf course with your buddies but you're not living in reality if you beleive there is a fair share of fighting by all US financial classes in the war in Iraq. You've got your info. You may not like it, but there it is. I don't think the wealthy classes need to worry about paying for their kids going to school, only lower and middle, particularly middle as the Globe article pointed out since they generally don't qualify for as much aid.

Isbets, I'm not questioning your particular motivation for joining or those of your individual unit, I'm using a reference to what is actually being paid by the Army's site, and the Boston Globe's article on its investigation into recruiting.

While you're reading the Globe article, take a look at this one. Will you be dancing for free? I hope not.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&ncid=2027&e=2&u=/chitribts/20041228/ts_chicagotrib/bushgalahasbigdonationspouringin

So Sec, if a kid can join the army and get all of college paid for, as opposed to not being able to go at all, OR, having $100K in loans when they get out, can you see why they join??

Do you think MAYBE that the reason they could target lower to middle income kids is the lure of a free college education?? You know, the one that they either couldn't afford or could bog them down financially for decades after they got out?

For once, use some logic and you can answer your own questions..

[Tom]

So Sec, you re in fact saying that only people targeted by advertising are signing up?
You have a real low opinion of people, don't you?
Do you really think that so-called poor people are so dumb that they will see a TV ad andf run out to sign up, while a so-called rich kid will never sign up because the TV ad was not targeted at him?
You libs really cannot acept facts, can you. The military is voluntary - everyone in it made a conscious descision to enlist. Nothing could be fairer. You just cannot accept the fact that everyone is not so easily swayed as you libs are. People actually are out here thinking and making descisions without the help of the DNC telling them what to think and do. Pathetic bunch, you guys. Pathetic.
Go look this argument up and get back to me. I'll wait while you do a web search. :D :cool: :D

[Secretariat]

So Sec, if a kid can join the army and get all of college paid for, as opposed to not being able to go at all, OR, having $100K in loans when they get out, can you see why they join??

Do you think MAYBE that the reason they could target lower to middle income kids is the lure of a free college education?? You know, the one that they either couldn't afford or could bog them down financially for decades after they got out?

For once, use some logic and you can answer your own questions..

So in essence you're now agreeing they're targeting lower and middle class incomes as The Globe reports, and that higher class incomes are not participating because the lure of benefits isn't applicable to them? The lower and middle class income individuals are going because they "NEED" the benefits rather than some altruistic reason.... Interesting.

[Secretariat]

So Sec, you re in fact saying that only people targeted by advertising are signing up?



Tom,


No, I did not say that "only" people targeted by advertsing are signing up. There are people who enlist for the reasons Isbets has asserted earlier. My point mirrors that in the Boston Globe article. Read the Globe link I posted above BEFORE responding. It is not just my assertion, but supported by the military's own recruitment tactics. Fundamentally, middle and lower class men and women are fighting in Iraq , and that upper class or richer class have no need to enlist, beenfits provide no allure, and hence a disproportionate of them do not actually engage in the Iraqi fight for freedom. I do agree they talk about it a lot, and may even attend the Bush 40 million gala ball, and may even get to dance with a soldier for free and ask them questions about it.

[formula_2002]

VOLUNTEER ARMY - Iraq - less than 40 confirmed military 'deserters'

DRAFT - Vietnam - 5,000 confirmed military deserters

DRAFT - WWII - 20,000 confirmed military deserters


Yeah, another draft sure would strengthen the military.. It certainly shows how effective a military is when they don't want to be there...

Thank God we have more rational minds in office to make brighter decisions than your's..

OH I see!! the fewer deserters, the less likely we are to win :(

[sq764]

OH I see!! the fewer deserters, the less likely we are to win :(

It's a shame you ruin so many threads with your idiocy.. Guess you can't help it though.

[PaceAdvantage]

It is interesting what a Halliburton consultant makes over in Iraq compared to the US soldier over there to keep him alive.How silly. How utterly silly.

Do you think anyone in the Secret Service earns more than the President, even though it is the agent's job to keep the President alive and free from harm?

How about any Hollywood celebrity? You think their bodyguards make more than the celebrity?

Give us a break, will ya?

[Equineer]

SQ764,

So Formula_2002 is now an idiot, and you called Formula_2002 a coward in another thread before you were shamed into starting this one.

You aren't fooling any veterans with your squirming.

We offer cash incentives and even use a back-door draft to retain soldiers whose bravery has already been confirmed.

We offer front-door cowardice as an option for guys like you who might be apt to desert.

[sq764]

SQ764,

So Formula_2002 is now an idiot, and you called Formula_2002 a coward in another thread before you were shamed into starting this one.

You aren't fooling any veterans with your squirming.

We offer cash incentives and even use a back-door draft to retain soldiers whose bravery has already been confirmed.

We offer front-door cowardice as an option for guys like you who might be apt to desert.

squirming?? cowardice??

Please describe your military service..

[Tom]

There is zero chance that the congress will pass a draft. Get over it.

[Secretariat]

How silly. How utterly silly.

Do you think anyone in the Secret Service earns more than the President, even though it is the agent's job to keep the President alive and free from harm?

How about any Hollywood celebrity? You think their bodyguards make more than the celebrity?

Give us a break, will ya?

Wow...talk about silly. To make the analogy of protecting the President by the Secret Service to an overpaid Halliburton consultant by some private making less than 20,000 a year is the height of lunacy. The Secret Service is paid quite well, and those guys take a vow to take a bullet to protect the Commander in Chief. I'm sure our privates making less than 20,000 would prefer if they didn't have to take a bullet for some Halliburton consultant making a bundle more than them. Gimme a break.

Your analogy is ridiculous. As to the Hollywood celebrity those bodyguards are paid very, very well -- certainly more than 20,000 a year to protect those celebrities -- and know exactly what they're getting into. A soldier enlisting to "free" the Iraqi people wasn't aware he'd be protecting overpaid Halliburton consultants. C'mon PA.

[Tom]

squirming?? cowardice??

Please describe your military service..

He/She/it cannot - he/she/it is a proven liar and already banned here under a differnet name. There is NOTHING this troll can post that would have any credibility.
Although, I would vote for fox-hole tart.

[Secretariat]

There is zero chance that the congress will pass a draft. Get over it.

I suppose you're right. It's an all Republican Government now.

[sq764]

I suppose you're right. It's an all Republican Government now.

Hmm, I recall the last Democratic govt greatly cut the armed forces... Glass house, meet rock

[Secretariat]

Hmm, I recall the last Democratic govt greatly cut the armed forces... Glass house, meet rock

Your post makes no sense. What does that have to do with the current legislature and adminstration instituting a draft?

[sq764]

Your post makes no sense. What does that have to do with the current legislature and adminstration instituting a draft?

Don't play dumb(er), you know exactly what they have to do with each other.

[sq764]

Your post makes no sense. What does that have to do with the current legislature and adminstration instituting a draft?

Also, I am curious why the Dems accused Bush of planning to implement a draft, during the campaign this year...

The Dems use the draft as a scare tactic to try to win the election, yet you say the Republican govt would never implement a draft..

um, what?????

[formula_2002]

Also, I am curious why the Dems accused Bush of planning to implement a draft, during the campaign this year...

The Dems use the draft as a scare tactic to try to win the election, yet you say the Republican govt would never implement a draft..

um, what?????

SQ, As liberal as you think I am, I'm rather certain I would not want to be a friend of your's.. You appear to have too many dislikes.. I sense a very poor soul.

[sq764]

SQ, As liberal as you think I am, I'm rather certain I would not want to be a friend of your's.. You appear to have too many dislikes.. I sense a very poor soul.

I am 100% certain I would not want to be a friend of your's. You stand for nothing and have no backbone... You fit the ideal Democratic mold..

I have a fantastic soul and I love life.. You should try it sometime..

(This is an odd statement coming from someone that is constantly moaning and whining about our current government.. talk about dislikes..)

[Tee]

Some questions for those involved in the discussion.

1)Who thinks there will ever be another conventionally fought World War?

2) If the United States & it's citizen's way of life is truly in danger, do u all think that a draft would be implemented?

3) What percentage of those that are eligible to be drafted would have a problem with serving their country if the above scenarios came to be?

[Tom]

No, I do not think there will ever be a conventional war again. Worst case is there will a nuclear war - and I think that is highly likely with rouque nations like Iran and N Korea. A conventional war would make no sense.

[sq764]

Some questions for those involved in the discussion.

1)Who thinks there will ever be another conventionally fought World War?

2) If the United States & it's citizen's way of life is truly in danger, do u all think that a draft would be implemented?

3) What percentage of those that are eligible to be drafted would have a problem with serving their country if the above scenarios came to be?

I think the next war involves us and Iran or China and it involves nukes.. So all the draftees in the world will not help avoid that.

Of course Mrs I-never-served-shit-in-my-life-and-have-never-done-one-beneficial-act-for-this-country-but-insult-entire-generations Equineer probably thinks otherwise...

[Equineer]

Tom and SQ764,

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155946&postcount=32 :cool:

[Secretariat]

Also, I am curious why the Dems accused Bush of planning to implement a draft, during the campaign this year...

The Dems use the draft as a scare tactic to try to win the election, yet you say the Republican govt would never implement a draft..

um, what?????

I could give a rat's ass what the Dem's do or don't.

I stated I was in favor of a draft. And yes, the Republican govt. will never implement a draft. Why would they want their chidlren to ever potentially face combat when they can get lower and middle class kids to do the job for them?

[Secretariat]

Some questions for those involved in the discussion.

1)Who thinks there will ever be another conventionally fought World War?

2) If the United States & it's citizen's way of life is truly in danger, do u all think that a draft would be implemented?

3) What percentage of those that are eligible to be drafted would have a problem with serving their country if the above scenarios came to be?


1. Who knows? However, the War on Terror could be defined as a World War, and it is going to be fought conventionally apparently.

2. Of course.

3. I would hope zero percent, but there will always pacifists and neocons.

[Equineer]

Originally posted by Tee,
Some questions for those involved in the discussion.

1) Who thinks there will ever be another conventionally fought World War?

2) If the United States & it's citizen's way of life is truly in danger, do u all think that a draft would be implemented?

3) What percentage of those that are eligible to be drafted would have a problem with serving their country if the above scenarios came to be?Do we accept that vis-a-vis Iraq, "the United States & it's citizen's way of life" were truly in danger?

If not, it is easy to see why there was no draft... but that concession also implies the war was truly unjustifed, and that world opinion will continue to shift towards the view that we are a threat instead of a champion of peace and liberty.

If we become a rogue nation that can no longer galvanize a broad coalition to support our foreign policies, there is little doubt that enemies will try to entangle us in future Iraq-like confrontations. By going to war without mobilizing sufficient manpower to decisively render peace in the wake of combat victories, we play right into the hands of our enemies by appearing to export devastation rather than democracy.

In the future, the worst application of our resources to combat international terrorism would be more half-hearted military excursions like Iraq. And we certainly need to avoid another misadventure in the name of national security that cannot be justified after the facts emerge.

[Tee]

Hey Joey - put the f'ing Thesaurus away!!!
I just couldn't help myself!!! :D :D

Do we accept that vis-a-vis Iraq, "the United States & it's citizen's way of life" were truly in danger?

If not, it is easy to see why there was no draft... but that concession also implies the war was truly unjustifed, and that world opinion will continue to shift towards the view that we are a threat instead of a champion of peace and liberty.

If we become a rogue nation that can no longer galvanize a broad coalition to support our foreign policies, there is little doubt that enemies will try to entangle us in future Iraq-like confrontations. By going to war without mobilizing sufficient manpower to decisively render peace in the wake of combat victories, we play right into the hands of our enemies by appearing to export devastation rather than democracy.

In the future, the worst application of our resources to combat international terrorism would be more half-hearted military excursions like Iraq. And we certainly need to avoid another misadventure in the name of national security that cannot be justified after the facts emerge.

There's nothing like getting an answer that really doesn't fit the question eh boys? :D :D :D

[Tee]

Does anyone happen to have some Benadryl or perhaps some Predisone?

The problem will resolve itself, but I just don't think I can go thru the pain!! :eek:

"Tis the season to be jolly"

[Tom]

Let's review:

1. Afghanistan - toppled the Taliban, liberated the people, they have had elections, and although things are not like downtown USA, they are on the right path. How many troops? Hmmmm. I recall a figure of under 300 on the ground.

2. SH deadly regieme topples, elections on the way, although many problems exist, we are fighting legitimate terroists - Al Zaqawi or whater - pledges alleigence to Bin Laden...seems to me that these are home grown terrorists and a connectin to Al Qeda certainly existed befroe the war. Now we are taking to them in thier streets, not ours. Foot note - despite all the whinning by our resident libs, NO OIL taken by the US.

3. Lybia turned over legitimate nukes that were in the hands of a known terrorist - Kadaffy. Any doubt that those would have been sold/given to Al Qeda eventually?

4. Majority of Americans voted to continue - first president in a while to get over 50% of the vote.

Yeah, Equi-ho, half hearted war.
You think that way when you only use half a brain.

[sq764]

Tom and SQ764,

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155946&postcount=32 :cool:

Please post your service record, I am curious... Will be waiting for your response..

[sq764]

I could give a rat's ass what the Dem's do or don't.

I stated I was in favor of a draft. And yes, the Republican govt. will never implement a draft. Why would they want their chidlren to ever potentially face combat when they can get lower and middle class kids to do the job for them?

Would a Democratic Govt implement a draft?

[sq764]

Do we accept that vis-a-vis Iraq, "the United States & it's citizen's way of life" were truly in danger?

If not, it is easy to see why there was no draft... but that concession also implies the war was truly unjustifed, and that world opinion will continue to shift towards the view that we are a threat instead of a champion of peace and liberty.

If we become a rogue nation that can no longer galvanize a broad coalition to support our foreign policies, there is little doubt that enemies will try to entangle us in future Iraq-like confrontations. By going to war without mobilizing sufficient manpower to decisively render peace in the wake of combat victories, we play right into the hands of our enemies by appearing to export devastation rather than democracy.

In the future, the worst application of our resources to combat international terrorism would be more half-hearted military excursions like Iraq. And we certainly need to avoid another misadventure in the name of national security that cannot be justified after the facts emerge.

Share your military experience with us and we can run with the idea of a draft..

[Equineer]

Share your military experience with us and we can run with the idea of a draft..See if you can cope with the vBulletin Search feature... then report back here with your wallet. :cool:

[sq764]

See if you can cope with the vBulletin Search feature... then report back here with your wallet. :cool:

Please post your military record... That's all I ask.

[Equineer]

I already have... see my previous post... you are the "step and fetch it" here. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

The Secret Service is paid quite well, and those guys take a vow to take a bullet to protect the Commander in Chief.

Your analogy is ridiculous. As to the Hollywood celebrity those bodyguards are paid very, very well -- certainly more than 20,000 a year to protect those celebrities -- and know exactly what they're getting into. A soldier enlisting to "free" the Iraqi people wasn't aware he'd be protecting overpaid Halliburton consultants. C'mon PA.
Huh? The point was, that those doing the protecting, are 99% of the time NEVER EARNING the same as those that are being protected. Ridiculous analogy? I don't think so at all. Nice try at a spin though....

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that in PERCENTAGE terms, it's the same difference between celebrity bodyguards and celebrities, secret service agents and the President, and US Troops and Halliburton consultants.

And please provide a ballpark figure of the number of Hallibutron consultants currently under US Millitary protection. I was under the impression that these guys go with their own PRIVATE security force. But, you probably know better than I do what's going on in Iraq at any given moment, since you're Mr. Johnny on the Spot.

[toetoe]

Gents,
No one can convince me that 'foxhole tart' and 'equi-ho' are appropriate terms in a civilized debate. Should be easy enough to win your case without that stuff.

[sq764]

I already have... see my previous post... you are the "step and fetch it" here. :)

I didn't think you would.. Until you do, you're posts are a joke and you cannot be taken seriously. So until then...

[Tom]

I think her records can be described as "don't ask, don't tell."
Typical liberal tricl-lie in print then reference it as fact. This dame/dude has no creditbilty whatsoever.

[Equineer]

SQ764 & Tom,

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155946&postcount=32

I smell scared money. :cool:

[sq764]

SQ764 & Tom,

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155946&postcount=32

I smell scared money. :cool:

Please post your military record. We are waiting.

[Tom]

And please state what country you served as well, Trooper. :D

[Equineer]

SQ764,

You're not waiting, you're weasling!

As I stated earlier in this thread, I sufficiently anwered questions about my military service other threads.

It seems kinder to credit you with weasling... rather than ask if you are stumped by the same Search Function everyone else finds easy to use, even the Cub Scouts (http://www.scoutingforums.org/). :)

I'm the one waiting... for you to muster the courage to seriously challenge that I served in the military... just like Formula_2002 and many other veterans on this board.

You like to characterize veterans as idiots and even cowards... so I'm not inclined to give free lunch to a chump. Moreover, it's becoming evident that you won't put your money where your mouth is... apparently, you've got no stomach for serious gambling. :cool:

[sq764]

SQ764,

You're not waiting, you're weasling!

As I stated earlier in this thread, I sufficiently anwered questions about my military service other threads.

It seems kinder to credit you with weasling... rather than ask if you are stumped by the same Search Function everyone else finds easy to use, even the Cub Scouts (http://www.scoutingforums.org/). :)

I'm the one waiting... for you to muster the courage to seriously challenge that I served in the military... just like Formula_2002 and many other veterans on this board.

You like to characterize veterans as idiots and even cowards... so I'm not inclined to give free lunch to a chump. Moreover, it's becoming evident that you won't put your money where your mouth is... apparently, you've got no stomach for serious gambling. :cool:

I characterize you as an idiot, don't lump veterans into your idiot boat..

My father is a vet and I respect him more than anyone in the world, because he was a vet and because he's my father.. You're a lowlife piece of shit who doesn't deserve to lick the soles of his shoes..

Still waiting for your military record.. Post it right here for us 'vbulletin search' challenged' people please.. I beg of you..

[Tom]

I already have... see my previous post... you are the "step and fetch it" here. :)

This sounds like a racist remark to me. Step and fetch it is a racial slur, which is inappropriate here. I think you owe an apology for your bigotry.

[formula_2002]

This sounds like a racist remark to me. Step and fetch it is a racial slur, which is inappropriate here. I think you owe an apology for your bigotry.

Whatever are you talking about?

Sq is the most insulting person I have yet to read on this board. Hostel and immature may also fit his person.

He's an absolute bore without an intelligent thought.

He is also very damaging to civil thinking...

Of course I may be over critical of the poor fellow :(

[sq764]

Whatever are you talking about?

Sq is the most insulting person I have yet to read on this board. Hostel and immature may also fit his person.

He's an absolute bore without an intelligent thought.

He is also very damaging to civil thinking...

Of course I may be over critical of the poor fellow :(

It's 'hostile', get it right..

Does it suck to be wrong all the time? It has to wear on you.. Wrong about the election, wrong about the draft, wrong about... well I won't go on..

You're a sad fellow, I feel sorry for ya man.. We can't all be fortunate, with people who care about us.. Good luck with that..

[formula_2002]

It's 'hostile', get it right..

Does it suck to be wrong all the time? It has to wear on you.. Wrong about the election, wrong about the draft, wrong about... well I won't go on..

You're a sad fellow, I feel sorry for ya man.. We can't all be fortunate, with people who care about us.. Good luck with that..

AH, my work on your character is starting to show results.
I sense much, much, less anger in your reply. Keep showing up at those meetings !!;)

[sq764]

Stay in your dungeon rolling virtual craps, that is where you can do the world most good.. Don't bother us normal folk.. Good day..

[46zilzal]

Please post your military record... That's all I ask.

as if that were some sort of "hallowed religious expereince"


Being a pawn must be lots of fun!

[JustRalph]

as if that were some sort of "hallowed religious expereince"


Being a pawn must be lots of fun!

hey jerk off, a bunch of those pawns have given their life so you can sit on your ass and make snide comments about the military. If you don't get it, you don't get it. But don't piss on someone else because they chose to serve their country.

[46zilzal]

the term would not have evolved if it were not based upon REAL fact.If folks want to do that, be my guest

[sq764]

as if that were some sort of "hallowed religious expereince"


Being a pawn must be lots of fun!


You'd definitely be a friendly fire 'accident' waiting to happen..

[46zilzal]

You'd definitely be a friendly fire 'accident' waiting to happen..
I would NEVER be anywhere close to a war or the G.D. stupid testosterone loaded 4 by 4 big truck mentality that promotes that suff.

[sq764]

I would NEVER be anywhere close to a war or the G.D. stupid testosterone loaded 4 by 4 big truck mentality that promotes that suff.

Yeah, no one would have EVER guessed that of you..

[Equineer]

I characterize you as an idiot, don't lump veterans into your idiot boat..

My father is a vet and I respect him more than anyone in the world, because he was a vet and because he's my father.. You're a lowlife piece of shit who doesn't deserve to lick the soles of his shoes..It's never too late for your dad to ask for a DNA test.

When it comes to putting your money where your mouth is... you seem to have one coglione stuck in your throat, but none down by your wallet. SQ764: Courage. What makes a King out of a slave? Courage.
What makes the flag on the mast to wave? Courage.
What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist or the dusky dusk?
What makes the muskrat guard his musk? Courage.
What makes the Sphinx the 7th Wonder? Courage.
What makes the dawn come up like THUNDER?! Courage.
What makes the Hottentot so hot?
What puts the "ape" in ape-ricot?
Whatta they got that I ain't got?

Dorothy: Courage!

SQ764: You can say that again...

Non ero molto in forma quando ho fatto la foto.

[46zilzal]

"If you don't get it, you don't get it. But don't piss on someone else because they chose to serve their country."

disagreement is not pissing on someone

[JustRalph]

"If you don't get it, you don't get it. But don't piss on someone else because they chose to serve their country."

disagreement is not pissing on someone
you belittle them by calling them a pawn..............
I am done with you.............Trolls aren't worth responding to

[46zilzal]

like a pawn a pawn,

Hasn't been a reason for war since 1941

[sq764]

Funny Equineer, everytime someone asks you to put your money where your mouth is, you send them to search.. There's nothing there.. Suck it up and admit you are a coward.. Admitting it is the first step to recovery.

[sq764]

"If you don't get it, you don't get it. But don't piss on someone else because they chose to serve their country."

disagreement is not pissing on someone

Disagree with the president and congress for choosing the war, don't belittle the efforts of brave soldiers.. At least appreciate that they allow you to post your worthless drivel each day without getting shot..

[46zilzal]

Disagree with the president and congress for choosing the war, don't belittle the efforts of brave soldiers.. At least appreciate that they allow you to post your worthless drivel each day without getting shot..

poor schmucks

[sq764]

poor schmucks
It's sad assholes like you that don't realize how good they have it and that other's are putting their lives on the line so you can sit on your fat ass and bitch about how bad the country is..

You have and still do make me want to vomit.

[46zilzal]

you need to purge some anger

[sq764]

you need to purge some anger

Nah, I am as happy and content as I have ever been, but thanks..

I look at my 4 week old son and just appreciate our military that keep he and my family safe.. And in the same thought, I also appreciate that at 4 weeks, he already has a more sensible mind than you...

[46zilzal]

I look at my 4 week old son and just appreciate our military that keep he and my family safe.. And in the same thought, I also appreciate that at 4 weeks, he already has a more sensible mind than you...

Poor little guy

[sq764]

Poor little guy

Insulting a 4 week old.. Can you be a bigger piece of shit?

Someday I hope we meet up..

[46zilzal]

Help me here...in one's WILDEST imagination there is NOTHING there but the mention of a poor little guy.

Yoy want to meet up so you can be physical or something???...

[46zilzal]

VOLUNTEER ARMY - Iraq - less than 40 confirmed military 'deserters'

DRAFT - Vietnam - 5,000 confirmed military deserters

DRAFT - WWII - 20,000 confirmed military deserters


Yeah, another draft sure would strengthen the military.. It certainly shows how effective a military is when they don't want to be there...

Thank God we have more rational minds in office to make brighter decisions than your's..
woof

[Tom]

like a pawn a pawn,

Hasn't been a reason for war since 1941

You are ignorant.

[Tom]

Help me here...in one's WILDEST imagination there is NOTHING there but the mention of a poor little guy.

Yoy want to meet up so you can be physical or something???...

I'll take that offer, Habibe.

[46zilzal]

Hell I might be 6'6"

[Tom]

Not for long.

[46zilzal]

Not Habibe

[sq764]

Hell I might be 6'6"
so?

[PaceAdvantage]

like a pawn a pawn,

Hasn't been a reason for war since 1941
Hell, why was there a reason for war in 1941? Just cause we were attacked (hey, did FDR let the attack happen?)

I guess the nations of the world should line up at your door to seek approval for any future military action....

[PaceAdvantage]

This is another waste of disk space. Those who deliberately continue to waste my disk space will be dealt with. And just to let you know, I don't seek prior approval for my military actions....

[46zilzal]

delete me...PLEASE

[PaceAdvantage]

I've got better things to do. If you want to disappear, just stop posting, and you will soon be forgotten.

And boy am I gonna miss all those self-righteous one and two word replies that add up to nothing.

[lsbets]

46zil,

I've been away from for a few days. Two days ago one of my best NCOs was coughing up blood and his right eye was hanging out the socket because of an IED explosion in the heart of Baghdad. Then I come on here and see you refer to soldiers as pawns and poor schmucks. You are a sad, sad human being. I've gotten annoyed and pissed by people's comments on here before, but never like this. You talk about a testerasterone hyped 4X4 attitude in the military. Who the fuck do you think you are? You are a sorry, pitiful excuse for a man, and should be ashamed of yourself.

[toetoe]

Formula,
Was sq, in his younger days, a youth hostile?
My real gripe is with Equineer for coining or endorsing the term "volitional suicide."

[formula_2002]

Formula,
Was sq, in his younger days, a youth hostile?
My real gripe is with Equineer for coining or endorsing the term "volitional suicide."

"Some critics have questioned the consistency of military methods for identifying volitional suicides, claiming that many suicides get classified as accidental deaths... however, there is a larger issue to consider. "

I'm not sure what EQ meant by the above.

But I gather SQ was demonstrating that fewer suicides in an all volunteer army was better then having a drafted army where suicide rates are higher.
I dont think that is too bright a conclusion.

Perhaps if we were even more selective in manning an all volunteer army we could have fewer suicides!! :rolleyes:

War is not about suicides its about fighting, dying and killing. That is why we should know what we are doing before we get into one. And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time.

[sq764]

"Some critics have questioned the consistency of military methods for identifying volitional suicides, claiming that many suicides get classified as accidental deaths... however, there is a larger issue to consider. "

I'm not sure what EQ meant by the above.

But I gather SQ was demonstrating that fewer suicides in an all volunteer army was better then having a drafted army where suicide rates are higher.
I dont think that is too bright a conclusion.

Perhaps if we were even more selective in manning an all volunteer army we could have fewer suicides!! :rolleyes:

War is not about suicides its about fighting, dying and killing. That is why we should know what we are doing before we get into one. And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time.

It was clear (to everyone but you) that I was insinuating that a volunteer, well-trained army was more effective than a non-volunteer army. I don't anticipate you will comprehend that, but based on your track record, that's understandable.

[formula_2002]

It was clear (to everyone but you) that I was insinuating that a volunteer, well-trained army was more effective than a non-volunteer army. I don't anticipate you will comprehend that, but based on your track record, that's understandable.

I comprehended your thoughts, as simple as they may be, and commented on them.

In cased you missed them;

But I gather SQ was demonstrating that fewer suicides in an all volunteer army was better then having a drafted army where suicide rates are higher.
I dont think that is too bright a conclusion.

Perhaps if we were even more selective in manning an all volunteer army we could have fewer suicides!!

War is not about suicides its about fighting, dying and killing. That is why we should know what we are doing before we get into one. And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time.
__________________

[lsbets]

Formula said "And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time."

I really try to avoid being insulting, but after seeing that all I can think is - wow you're an idiot.

[formula_2002]

Formula said "And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time."

I really try to avoid being insulting, but after seeing that all I can think is - wow you're an idiot.

Unfortunately, I'm not.. but have it your way. We're all in this together babe..just think of it that way for awhile.

[sq764]

I comprehended your thoughts, as simple as they may be, and commented on them.

In cased you missed them;

But I gather SQ was demonstrating that fewer suicides in an all volunteer army was better then having a drafted army where suicide rates are higher.
I dont think that is too bright a conclusion.

Perhaps if we were even more selective in manning an all volunteer army we could have fewer suicides!!

War is not about suicides its about fighting, dying and killing. That is why we should know what we are doing before we get into one. And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time.
__________________

It took me longer than it should have to realize that you just aren't a very intelligent human being.

In hindsight, I am actually sorry for the insults. I should be more sensitive to your kind.

[Equineer]

Formula,
Was sq, in his younger days, a youth hostile?
My real gripe is with Equineer for coining or endorsing the term "volitional suicide."Your real problem is reading comprehension.

Volition n. 1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision. 2. A conscious choice or decision. 3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will. --volitional adj. --volitionally adv.

My only post containing volitional suicide (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155914&postcount=13) stated this: "Some critics have questioned the consistency of military methods for identifying volitional suicides, claiming that many suicides get classified as accidental deaths."

Does it astound you that suicides have been publicly reported as "fatal accidents" even though the circumstances strongly suggested suicide, and comrades of the victim were aware of typical psychological precursors in the victim's personal, family, or military affairs?

For example, in my earlier post, I pointed out that military suicides dropped when overt harassment of "suspected gays" was pro-actively discouraged after "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" became military policy in 1993. Back when I served, we were not "truly concerned" if the troops made life miserable for suspected gays because they were officially banned from military service.

[PaceAdvantage]

Editorial note: If anyone is wondering why I don't remove lsbets use of the f-word, as is my policy, I'll liken it to this:

Even ABC (which I pattern my censorship rules after, ala NYPD Blue), has to show things UNCUT, like they USED to do with Saving Private Ryan, and Schindler's List.

This is one of those times.

[lsbets]

PA, I sincerely apologize for the use of the f-word. No matter what I was responding to, it was inapproproate.

[PaceAdvantage]

No apology necessary....

[46zilzal]

46zil,
I've gotten annoyed and pissed by people's comments on here before, but never like this. You talk about a testerasterone hyped 4X4 attitude in the military. Who the fuck do you think you are? You are a sorry, pitiful excuse for a man, and should be ashamed of yourself.

Once again anger takes over logic. The game of chess has, for a very long time, been played with certain sacrificial players (pawns).....The PLAYER (or in this case the idots who send people in harms way for NO reason) are responsible for their disposition....I NEVER want to see ANYONE hurt, ANYONE...but militarism does not have much logic to it and just "follows orders" even if they are NUTS and WITHOUT A SHREAD OF MERIT.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

[sq764]

Once again anger takes over logic. The game of chess has, for a very long time, been played with certain sacrificial players (pawns).....The PLAYER (or in this case the idots who send people in harms way for NO reason) are responsible for their disposition....I NEVER want to see ANYONE hurt, ANYONE...but militarism does not have much logic to it and just "follows orders" even if they are NUTS and WITHOUT A SHREAD OF MERIT.

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Do you understand that there is a military in place to prevent US citizens from getting hurt? Do you understand that concept at all?

And who are you to determine what has a shred of merit?

[46zilzal]

going to a third world country WITHOUT provocation (NOT A THING) is keeping us safe...just HOW??

[46zilzal]

Seems that invading third world countries seems to be the NORM: Korea, Vietnam, and that MOST dangerous of all culprits the dreaded GRENADA!!


Each one a BIG triumph....hogwash

[sq764]

going to a third world country WITHOUT provocation (NOT A THING) is keeping us safe...just HOW??

Dunno, maybe you should ask Kerry when he said Sadam was the single largest threat to the United States. Why would he say such a thing?

[46zilzal]

Do you understand that there is a military in place to prevent US citizens from getting hurt? Do you understand that concept at all?

And who are you to determine what has a shred of merit?

Not a bit

[sq764]

Not a bit

Well if you fail to understand why the military is in place, you have a lot of catching up to do to understand the points being made in this thread.

Why don't you start here http://militaryhistory.about.com/ and come back next week with some additional knowledge..

Until then...

[lsbets]

My friend? That is one of my soldiers who I am responsible for, who was only on that mission because I said he needed to go. His wife called my wife crying for two hours because my wife is the commander's wife. My wife hadn't heard from me and didn't know where I was and couldn't sleep until I finally called. Whether intended or not, your posts are filled with condescension towards those who serve, and to be honest make you appear to be a pretty pitiful person. Anger on my part - damn right, and totally justified. Your posts are simply amazin.

[PaceAdvantage]

I believe they think their "ideological superiority" trumps all other basic human compassion. It's sad when a man is reduced to that state.

[JustRalph]

and that MOST dangerous of all culprits the dreaded GRENADA!!
Each one a BIG triumph....hogwash

Tell that to the almost 1000 U.S. Med students who found themselves captive on an island that had become the victim of a Marxist Coup, led by supporters of Fidel Castro. Not to mention the aircraft hangers full of ammo and arms that were being piled up from Russian Suppliers. Those guns and the assorted other war tools were being stockpiled for a reason. Reagan was smart enough to intervene when requested.............You lefties have a certain fondness for Castro........but Reagan didn't...........and the lives of a thousand U.S. Citizens meant something...............they could have easily become hostages. You might recall that this was only a few years after the Iranian Hostage debacle that your precious Nobel Prize winner (Carter) screwed up.

[Tom]

"War is not about suicides its about fighting, dying and killing. That is why we should know what we are doing before we get into one. And again..we have done more harm to Iraq in three years then Sadam could have done in the remainder of his life time."

Better watch the news nore often....it in NOT us that is doin gall the violence over there. WE are trying to help them set up free elctions and run thier own country. Terroists/insurgents are the ones doiing all the damge. Those same ANIMALS that served Sadamm/Bin Laden.
Think that 155,000 dead from the tsunami is terrible? It is, but about half as terrible as what SH did to his own people.

[Tom]

Seems that invading third world countries seems to be the NORM: Korea, Vietnam, and that MOST dangerous of all culprits the dreaded GRENADA!!


Each one a BIG triumph....hogwash

Korea was a UN operation. The N Koreans blantly invaded the south and killed tens of thousands of innocent people. Do some research befroe you spread your ignorance around. To this day, N Korea is a threat to the world.

[formula_2002]

[QUOTE=....it in NOT us that is doin gall the violence over there. WE are trying to help them set up free elctions and run thier own country. Terroists/insurgents are the ones doiing all the damge. Those same ANIMALS that served Sadamm/Bin Laden.
[/QUOTE]

Simple but convient thinking..

Did we ever truly consider an alternative to pre-emptive transgression? No!

We are where we should not be, and good people (on both sides) are being killed..

Perhaps a even a "second term" Bush would have done things better (given the experence of his 1st four years).

His mis-guided and inmature nature is a burden to all of us.

There is no justification to our invasion of Iraq.

[JustRalph]

[QUOTE=....it in NOT us that is doin gall the violence over there. WE are trying to help them set up free elctions and run thier own country. Terroists/insurgents are the ones doiing all the damge. Those same ANIMALS that served Sadamm/Bin Laden.

Simple but convient thinking..

Did we ever truly consider an alternative to pre-emptive transgression? No!

We are where we should not be, and good people (on both sides) are being killed..

Perhaps a even a "second term" Bush would have done things better (given the experence of his 1st four years).

His mis-guided and inmature nature is a burden to all of us.

There is no justification to our invasion of Iraq.[/QUOTE]
I detect an accent...........

[Tom]

Ralph,
He is consistent. He approaches life like he approaches horse racing...from the losing end of the stick. If my personal mindset was that of being forever a loser, I would proably agree with him.

[46zilzal]

Well if you fail to understand why the military is in place, you have a lot of catching up to do to understand the points being made in this thread.


You take my place will ya? Militarism or let's call it JINGOISM or my personal favorite "sabre rattling" is very alive and well

[Tom]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Why is the military in place where?
Iraq? It is there to protect the Iraqis while they set up their own government. Same as we did in Germany and Japan, only on a much faster scale.
N Korea? Becuase IlDung Too is a murderous aniaml who cannot be trusted. He has never lived up to the armistice since it was singed and if we were no there, he would invade S Korea with no hestiation. From what I have read about N Krea, I know of no other nation worthy of all out, total, complete invasion - full war to destroy every communist soldier there. N Korea is a menace to the worlkd and Kim Dung Ho neerds to be killed as soon as possible. If I had a swoard, I would rattle it in his kidneys, his liver, his groin, his eyballs, his......you get my drift? Evil dicators like this animal deserve no justice, no trials, nothing but instant death.

[JustRalph]

Four posts up from this.......is a post attributed to me..........


I did not write that post...........not sure where it came from..........

pa....... I just changed my password....not sure what is up

[JustRalph]

Ok.......on a second refresh and deleting my temp files..........

things are straight on the post above.......and the quotes and stuff straightened out........appears it was my browser was screwed up.....it was showing a different username..and attributing the post to me instead of showing the quote and the added portion.........although some of the rest of my post is missing.....? hmmm......gotta love the Internet.........

[Tom]

Ralph, when you post back to back, you have a cool Elvis chorus line! :D