How much cheating is there in horseracing??

[sq764]

I am part of several message boards, both harness and t-bred and continue to be amazed at the amount of posts that reference corruption, cheating, etc… And we’re not talking a rare incident, we are talking about reference to cheating on a nightly basis..

I understand that there are a lot of poor handicappers out there that simply cry foul when a horse wins that they don’t figure.. But do that many people really think there is cheating on every card, at every track?

2 things come to mind for me… 1) What is ‘cheating exactly??? Is it collusion to win or lose a race?? Is it simply not riding or driving a horse through the finish line? Is it drugging a horse that wins? 2) Of the above, realistically, how often do they occur?? Daily? Monthly?? Rarely?? More at the small tracks than big tracks??

I mean, I am not so naïve to think that cheating doesn’t occur, as I have seen it before and have recently seen drivers charged with it… But if you had to guess, how rampant is cheating in horseracing??

[melman]

How often does cheating occur among lawyers? How about wall street securities dealer's? Or for that matter almost any profession. I do not think it is something that anyone can know for sure. Like you SQ I do not stick my head in the sand and say no one is using drugs or pulling horses but if it is on a regular every day every card basis I am pretty sure the industry would have folded by now. Of course non winners at the OTB "know" they are cheating on every race LOL, except for the race they have the winning ticket. Then it was there great talent for picking the horses that did it.

[bobbyb]

What bothers me more than anything is a trainer giving instructions for a stroll in the park, at mine (and your) expense (a form of cheating, perhaps).

Wouldn't it be nice to have that INSIDE info........... :mad:

bobby

[ranchwest]

I'll just say that there are a lot more ways to lose a race than there are ways to win a race.

[Tom]

Funny, a lot of people seem to think FIX when they hear the name Penn National. In fact, the fist thread I read today was about Penn and turned to the topic of race fixing. I rank Penn as my favorite track and have always doen well there. WereI to list the tracks I am most suspicious of, NYRA would top the list. I have little fatih in the integrity of many races run at NYRA and over the years, have seen more suspicious racing and people than all other track put together. Guess it's all in your perception.

[andicap]

I woudl vote for the Louisiana tracks as the most corrupt, especially the smaller ones. The state has a culture of such stuff -- corrupt politicians are routinely re-elected -- and many results at the smaller tracks are really inscrutable.

[TOOZ]

I agree with bobbyb. There are many trainers that wait for their price and the nice payday. How many times have you shaken your head at such form reversal or are amazed that such a mule could have won? I don't think they found a wonder drug all of a sudden, their training percentages aren't good enough to suspect drug use. They just play the waiting game. It's one of the toughest angles in the game, unless you are on the inside looking out.

[46zilzal]

having worked on the backstrech I always get a kick out of these discussions. Those people have to survive on purses: they do the best they can. A bit of cheating occurs but NO where near the level the Hollwyood ideas would portray

[sq764]

Originally posted by andicap
I woudl vote for the Louisiana tracks as the most corrupt, especially the smaller ones. The state has a culture of such stuff -- corrupt politicians are routinely re-elected -- and many results at the smaller tracks are really inscrutable.

I'll play Evangeline Downs, but I won't come anywhere near Delta.. Some of the races I have seen there just make me shake my head..

[Brian Flewwelling]

The question is still "What is cheating?"

Look past the winner today. What about horses that are not pushed to do their best because the jock didn't get the ride right early on, or something about the trip wasn't favourable?

So we see a horse that ran in the pack, and finished evenly in the pack. The jockey had more horse but didn't pursue 4th or 3rd.

Is this cheating? We have a horse on an improving condition move, that is hidden because of coasting.

Brian

[Dan Montilion]

The question is still "What is cheating?"

When a group conspire to effect the running and/or outcome of a race. If a trainer has entered a horse under wrong conditions, be they eligibilty or surface or whatever to "darken" a horses form. In this case I can handle it through trainer analysis. If a rider yanks one back or does something neferious I'm likely to understand it off of trip analysis. A trainer uses "magic" he is a 40% trainer and I can deal with it. What I or most handicappers can't deal with is a group of people getting together to effect the results and that group really only needs to be two. Case in point you and I are both jockeys on the only two pace horse in the race, my car is broken down and the kids need shoes and I come to you and suggest you take back, low and behold I'm now a lone F. Sure there is some gambling as I could still get beat. This scenario is even better if you and I as riders are part of a three horse likely pace scenario. In this case we take back and the poor fool on the other horses clears and wins and he is not even part of it. It does not take the entire field to be involved to "set up" a race.

Now the above sounds very paranoid and I assure you I'm not paranoid but I'm suspicious at times and even the above situations can be realised if one is not suspicious to a fault.

Dan Montilion

[JustRalph]

How much cheating is there in horseracing??


A whole lot. And most people think it is the jocks...............

I have learned that the trainers are the real cheaters...........

just my opine


they will get away with as much as they are allowed. That has been proven over and over. When trainers start picking up and moving to other states.............to avoid investigations and "new enforcement actions" it reminds me of the old "path of least resistance" claims...............

[kenwoodallpromos]

Cheating is: 1) What connections get suspended and fined for (because they want to take shortcuts); and
2) A losing bet when no other explaination is found.
I say you build in an extra 2% profit to account for cheating. That means that my guess is the actual cheating done againts your horse will be about 2% more than cheating done in favor of your horse.
The better you can recognize horses in a position to lose due to overwork, wrong race, or bad post or racing luck, the less unknown reasons you will find.
If you can pick successful bets to win at 45%, place at 65%, and show at 80%, all of the above problems will be overcome.

[JustRalph]

hey Ken

You make good points. But, what about the cheating that you can't quantify? How often can you tell when a trainers intent was just a workout? We just aren't privy to enough info. Or worse........who knows what else is going on behind the scenes that we never see. If there are ways to make a horse go faster.........there are tons more that sabotage a horses chances and nobody is looking for them. You can tell some trainers "darken the form" but predicting the turnaround is damn near impossible most times. Then there are some tracks where it just doesn't pay to play. And I don't anymore. Watching where you play and who is migrating there is much more important now than it was 3-4 years ago.

I spoke with a trainer who runs at MNR about 7-8 months ago. He told me some things that really surprised me. They mostly had to do with how a horse is handled on a day to day basis. Making them feel bad for a month or so is pretty damn easy. And there are no tests for figuring out who is not letting their horse sleep or eat well. No tests for shipping them in under terrible road conditions and such, on race day. Then they suddenly start taking really good care of them for a few weeks so they turn around. After they have run two or three clunkers they start treating them right. Suddenly they pop up and win at 25-1 and the barn scores and the owner scores etc. That money is coming out of our pockets. He filled me in on some things that occur at MNR that I was totally unaware of. After our talk........I will never bet another dime down there. I am sure it happens everywhere, but some places are worse than others and there is no column in the racing form for how many hours the horse slept in the last week. Or what kind of food he has been eating. Or not eating..........the 2% figure you quote might be right..........but how do you really know?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by JustRalph
hey Ken

You make good points. But, what about the cheating that you can't quantify? How often can you tell when a trainers intent was just a workout? We just aren't privy to enough info. Or worse........who knows what else is going on behind the scenes that we never see. If there are ways to make a horse go faster.........there are tons more that sabotage a horses chances and nobody is looking for them. You can tell some trainers "darken the form" but predicting the turnaround is damn near impossible most times. Then there are some tracks where it just doesn't pay to play. And I don't anymore. Watching where you play and who is migrating there is much more important now than it was 3-4 years ago.

I spoke with a trainer who runs at MNR about 7-8 months ago. He told me some things that really surprised me. They mostly had to do with how a horse is handled on a day to day basis. Making them feel bad for a month or so is pretty damn easy. And there are no tests for figuring out who is not letting their horse sleep or eat well. No tests for shipping them in under terrible road conditions and such, on race day. Then they suddenly start taking really good care of them for a few weeks so they turn around. After they have run two or three clunkers they start treating them right. Suddenly they pop up and win at 25-1 and the barn scores and the owner scores etc. That money is coming out of our pockets. He filled me in on some things that occur at MNR that I was totally unaware of. After our talk........I will never bet another dime down there. I am sure it happens everywhere, but some places are worse than others and there is no column in the racing form for how many hours the horse slept in the last week. Or what kind of food he has been eating. Or not eating..........the 2% figure you quote might be right..........but how do you really know?

The care and placing of a horse in the proper race will get him to the winners circle, Thats a lot of crap about how long the horse slept etc,Horses ship all over the country and still win.Im sure lots of stuff goes on but Im not privy to it, I dont want anything to do with cheaters! I run for the money every time I race,I also dont think a trainer that has a small stable would risk cheating..IMO..

[sq764]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
The care and placing of a horse in the proper race will get him to the winners circle, Thats a lot of crap about how long the horse slept etc,Horses ship all over the country and still win.Im sure lots of stuff goes on but Im not privy to it, I dont want anything to do with cheaters! I run for the money every time I race,I also dont think a trainer that has a small stable would risk cheating..IMO..

It all depends on what you consider cheating... At some of the smaller tracks, small trainers thrive on betting their horse and the only way to a nice payday is to hide his form.. Whether it be flashing speed or middle fractions, it's in the pps', you just have to find it.

[TOOZ]

To me it's like point shaving. Your team can still win with not the full effort of your players, however because of the line you can have it both ways. When the line is in your favor, play like you never played before. Your horse can cash a few checks when the tote is not in your favor, when it is, time to go all out. Point shavers have always been considered cheats.

[fouroneone]

The Public will always look down on Horse Racing as long as articles like this are printed in "main-Stream" magazines

http://www.maximonline.com/sports/articles/article_4630.html

[JackS]

Several years ago, BM was banned in Las Vegas becuase of a "steam horse" that was taking money at many of the larger casinos. The horse was a longshot maiden FTS and the money bet on him could not be explained by the books or the lack of action on this horse at BM.
Of course the horse won and the casinos lost big-time. A day or two later the DRF did a short interview with the owner who stated "we certainly didn't make any money on the horse beyond the purse". The horse was not considered to be anything more than most of FTS's we start." We were as pleasently surprized as anyone who decided to play our longshot". I'm paraphrazing a little but that was the gist of the interview.
It seems that from time to time, things are going to happen that really can never be explained.

[freeneasy]

the vegas books will take a bet on two flys crawling up a wall and for them to shut down betting at bm's because of serious action on a fts that showed no outward or obvious indication for such support is a major undertaking. they know the difference between inside money and crowd money and this was not crowd money. you dont bet that kind of money without dead tight information. and if there was nothing in the form to indicate this horse was deserving of such betting action then information as to the readiness of this horse was being revealed outside the racing form. this trainer was lying thru his golden brown stained teeth. he had a bet on this horse the size of manhatten and so did his buddies.

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by freeneasy
this trainer was lying thru his golden brown stained teeth. he had a bet on this horse the size of manhatten and so did his buddies.

LOL

[JackS]

A national convention of clairvoyants coud explain everything.

[hurrikane]

so much of his is just plain BS!

1st place at Mnr pays anywhere from 6000 to 12000.
With a win pool that seldom gets over 60,000 how are they going to pull out that kind of money. It' s just BS.

Sure cheating happens as it does everywhere in life. But not at the level or with the frequency a lot of people whine about.

If you really believe it....then why the hell are you playing..you stupid or what.

[Rob_in_MN]

I thought some of you might find this website interesting.
This lists track violations jocks/trainers/hired help at the main tracks around the country. It is updated weekly.

www.arci.com

The Association of Racing Commissioners official web site.

I disagree that trainer intention should be classified as cheating.
I think the continuing culprit in our sport is doping and more often than not we don't even hear about the violations that have affected our wager outcomes.

I've seen many occurrences where the trainer is fined a paltry sum and the horse is dq'd from purse money after split samples are found to be contaminated - but I'd never have known about it otherwise if I hadn't checked ARCI. Some recent examples include Harry Thompson (leading trainer at Penn National) and Mark Shuman at Delaware. I encourage you to check out the site.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Rob_in_MN


I disagree that trainer intention should be classified as cheating.

As do I---trainer intention is a major part of my handicapping.

[46zilzal]

Trainer intent is NOT cheating once you understand just HOW the manager want the animal to progress. Would anyone knock a young fighter going up against a club fighter so that the young rising star could gain the expereince to go after the toughger ones down the line?? Doubt it.

There are a ton of ways to produce a SUBTLE cheat: feed the animal a full portion of food the day of the race, put on/take away equipment that you KNOW the horse reacts negatively to (blinks, tongue tie etc.), and this goes on and on, but at the bottom end, why in the world would they WANT TO???

[Valuist]

I agree that the trainers are the biggest cheaters of all. I believe drugging is the most prevalent form of cheating. Yeah, stiff jobs do happen but probably not as often as many believe.

[mjdevita]

Originally posted by sq764
........ But if you had to guess, how rampant is cheating in horseracing??

Does any business or profession not have a dark side?

Isn't there good and bad people in any type job.....

Cheating even if it is just imagined is not good for horse racing. This is definitely something the powers to be must address if the sport is to grow.

Gamblers will accept losing if they felt they had a fair chance of winning and can win next time out.

Granted while some horse wagering novices may not understand about a jock or driver who is staying to the rail or rating a horse is really trying to give their horse the best chance to win.

Some tracks have a purse structure that is so low there is absolutely no way to make money in the business unless owners/trainers make a bet from time to time.....this I feel leads to some undesired behavior.

Trainers, owners, jocks/drivers, management and race officials must work together to get ensure no undesirable is allowed on their grounds....they feel to realize everytime some fan gets fed up ...even if the cheating is only imagined....that is another lost fan......lost handle...and adds to the emptiness of the plant.

Hopefully, as purses get larger with the addition of slots in many states, horsemen will be able to make a living within the purse structure and do exactly as McShell stated because Tom is exactly right.....

Proper care and placing the horse were it can compete will foster better racing and maybe bring back the fan and create a few new ones!!

Have a GREAT NIGHT!!

Mike

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Valuist
I agree that the trainers are the biggest cheaters of all. I believe drugging is the most prevalent form of cheating. Yeah, stiff jobs do happen but probably not as often as many believe.

This post is a bunch of crap!!, Not a fair statment and way out of line, Let me ask you this...WHAT proof do you have besides a few big time trainers getting busted for Milkshakes and tranqulizer.There are a LOT of us small guys that never get a chance to prove our worth.Statments like this make it very hard to bring fresh people into the racing business.If you do think trainers are the worst cheats..Why do you bother to bet?

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
This post is a bunch of crap!!, Not a fair statment and way out of line, Let me ask you this...WHAT proof do you have besides a few big time trainers getting busted for Milkshakes and tranqulizer.There are a LOT of us small guys that never get a chance to prove our worth.Statments like this make it very hard to bring fresh people into the racing business.If you do think trainers are the worst cheats..Why do you bother to bet?

Isn't a few big time trainers getting busted enough proof that some (not all) trainers cheat? I don't think anybody is saying that all trainers cheat, just that it exists. Obviously, you are going to be sensitive to that kind of statement because you are a trainer. Please realize that you are the only trainer on a board populated by horseplayers.

Nobody is saying that you are a cheater McSchell, but some trainers are. I hope that it isn't many, but who really knows. As a trainer, you probably have your suspicions about who around you is cheating.

Let me ask you McSchell, what is your honest opinion on the subject. Do jockeys cheat? If so, how and how much? We know that trainers have got caught doing the doping thing. Is is rampant? How about form darkening?

By the way, regarding form darkening, we as horseplayers have to understand that trainers need to get horses into winning form. They can't always do this on the training track. There are lots of trainers who get their runners into shape through racing. The key is in knowing which trainers do this more routinely than others. Do you agree?

Please understand both the spirit of these posts and that this is not a personal attack on you McSchell. I think that Hurrikane's statement is very important. If people are really so stressed out about cheating and think that it is rampant, then why are they playing the races?

[Valuist]

McShell-

Can I prove they're drugging? Of course not. But that doesn't change anything. I've seen too many dramatic form turnarounds from these so-called "super trainers". And yes, I've known people on the backstretch. I have owned horses myself. Do all trainers drug? Of course not. Are there some who do? Absolutely. I have my own suspicions of who does, and it most definitely has not hurt me at the mutuel windows. Maybe your trainer doesn't bend the rules but let's not be naive here. Yeah, we hear about the ones who get caught. But nobody believes they all get caught. Just like steroid testing in sports, its all about being one step ahead of the testing process.

[jeebus1083]

I tend to stay away from Finger Lakes because that track is highly corrupt. I'll find a flyer here and there at overlaid odds but won't pound the dickens out of it. However, I must say that Penn National, Charles Town, and Mountaineer tend to play pretty honest. Sure there is larceny in horse racing, but I don't let it disrupt my handicapping, and if it does, I either quit playing a certain track or I only drop a few bucks for entertainment (a la Finger Lakes). :)

[Figman]

If you're referring to drugging horses as the corruption, I would play Finger Lakes long before I would play any track in West Virginia like Mountaineer or Charles Town. New York drug testing is clearly superior and more extensive.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Isn't a few big time trainers getting busted enough proof that some (not all) trainers cheat? I don't think anybody is saying that all trainers cheat, just that it exists. Obviously, you are going to be sensitive to that kind of statement because you are a trainer. Please realize that you are the only trainer on a board populated by horseplayers.

Nobody is saying that you are a cheater McSchell, but some trainers are. I hope that it isn't many, but who really knows. As a trainer, you probably have your suspicions about who around you is cheating.

Let me ask you McSchell, what is your honest opinion on the subject. Do jockeys cheat? If so, how and how much? We know that trainers have got caught doing the doping thing. Is is rampant? How about form darkening?

By the way, regarding form darkening, we as horseplayers have to understand that trainers need to get horses into winning form. They can't always do this on the training track. There are lots of trainers who get their runners into shape through racing. The key is in knowing which trainers do this more routinely than others. Do you agree?

Please understand both the spirit of these posts and that this is not a personal attack on you McSchell. I think that Hurrikane's statement is very important. If people are really so stressed out about cheating and think that it is rampant, then why are they playing the races?

Sorry for having to quote all of this.

You do bring up some very good points,I didnt take it as a personal attack!.I have a very hard time believing jockeys cheat!,ALL my horses that I have run at Calder have been clean races,I have never suspected any wrong doing from any jockey,Let me add this, It would imho be very hard for jocks to get toether and fix a race, There are so many starving jocks in the room and a secret is never a secret after someone else knows.Some People imho are envious of people who do good when they race and lots of people take away the glory for the honest guy in saying or thinking the trainer has drugged his horses,Im the last guy who would ever want to lose a purse. Maybe other tracks have a history of bad jocks and trainers but here at Calder, imho They run a tight ship!

[Show Me the Wire]

McSchell_Racing:

What rule says a bunch of jocks have to get together to impact the outcome of a race. You only need one, the one on the favorite or the one that will make it his mission to make the favorite get beat. It is easy to do and maybe not so difficult to have a lot involved as they did at Penn National.

I assume you heard of the Penn National scandal and arrests of more than a few trainers and jockeys for impacting the outcomes of trifectas? i say assume, because you were not familiar with EPO as a performance enhancing drug, so I am not sure you are aware of the Penn national scandal.

Regards.
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[sq764]

Mcshell, are you saying jocks NEVER cheat?

[JackS]

Suspicions are a part of racing and any other game where money fame and fortune are on the line.
Consider the 12% jock who is now riding at the 30% level and hopefully has no explaination for his sudden change in stats other than he might consider himself superior to his used to be counterparts.
On the other hand the public, jocks, trainers, chart makers and just about anyone else aware of this sudden turn-a-round will be thinking "cheat?"
Thie same thinking can also apply to owners and trainers when they have what appears to be luck beyond their true abilities.
As handicappers maybe we should be more understanding and realize that this phenomena is really not so strange after all.
Most of us have had those "super weeks or months" when cashing tickets seems more natural than throwing away losers but begin to realize also that our luck will not last forever and things will return to normal probably much sooner than later.
Not making excuses here for the real cheats who do exist but just maybe have much less impact on the game than our imaginations would lead us to believe.

[bucktron]

A Handicappers Prospective


Normally I don’t enter into discussions like this but for some reason I felt compelled to say something. Like any business a trainer or owner must have a revenue stream coming in to off set the expenses of doing business. He/She has employee’s, vet bills, insurance, 12+ hour workdays and often numbers that just don’t add up. Its not fun working 60 to 80 hours a week, every week and seeing a taxable loss. To increase cash flow, investments (bets) are often make on your stock (thoroughbreds) when you have created a substantial overlay situation. In short you have created much higher probability of winning than the general public perceives. Thanks to Inter-State betting, the handle in a lot of tracks is substantial enough to not bet against yourself. The real questions are: What is legal deception? Where is the grey area? What is illegal? In any market, however, diminishing resources tend to make more and more participants Machiavellian and thus skew the grey area toward the illegal. The job of the professional handicapper is to exploit a situation perceived by the general public as negative and convert it into a profitable angle. By tracking trainer moves, many of the sharp professionals on this board create angles that amount to psychological profiles of trainer habits which they factor into their handicapping. When done correctly, the handicapper can feel that he is at the window right behind owner and trainer going for the overlayed big score.

[bobbyb]

Well said Buctron! :cool:

[bobbyb]

(Forgot the "k" in your name) Sorrry Bucktron - Heck of a New Years Party last nite (and today) :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry for having to quote all of this.
No need to apologize. You were quoting a post 4 back, which is perfectly reasonable.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Mcshell, are you saying jocks NEVER cheat?

I said I have run several horses at Calder and all of them were clean races!..Im sure they do at some places,Im also sure they all get caught!..

[Dave Schwartz]

ALthough I have not been following this thread I am not without an opinion. <G>

In a perfect world, the purses would be high enough that the trainers and jockeys would always be trying. In addition, the industry could then demand near-perfection in terms of perserverance and cheating, with lifetime bans for those that corrupt the game.

In a perfect world.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[schweitz]

Well said Buctron! :cool:
DITTO!

[Tote Master]

I’m not sure how long you all have been at this GAME, but there are many naive people out there: including many supposedly good handicappers. I emphasize the word game, only because that’s all it really is folks, a game. Not any rocket science, that’s for sure. I’ve been at this game for quite a while and I will adamantly stand on the fact that this game is driven by one thing and one thing only: MONEY! Money and humans naturally breed corruption and greed, but even beyond that there’s also matter of survival. How many owners and trainers have to bet on their own interests (or even others) in order to survive in this game? If anyone thinks that the majority of horse connections survive by winning just the purse monies, they're only kidding themselves. The overhead and expenses for keeping horses in training is very high. Unless you’re well to do and just using the expenses as a write-off, you’re struggling everyday to make ends meet.

So, once you get over the shock and realize that not every horse in a race is “trying” to win, then you have to look at this game from a completely different perspective. Until you do you’ll always be wondering why that long-shot took out the best (3) selections in this race or that. Many years ago I used to hear the old-timers at the track commenting about situations like that. They’d gruntingly say, “They’re playing their games again”! At the time, (also being quite naïve) I never really understood what they meant. Yet, whenever I heard it, I always felt that there was something going on beyond my insight. I know now that they were absolutely right, and they certainly weren’t talking about the horses.

The next time you go to the windows, keep in mind that you’re not just betting against all those other players. You’re betting against those connections, who really know how to play this game! I don't care how good a horse may look on paper (or computer analysis)! If they don't bet on it, neither will I.

Best of Luck in the New Year!

[46zilzal]

With ELIZA (enyzme linked immonoassay) testing, it is about IMPOSSILBE to get significant amounts byt the tests..

Had a slew of positives locally for (of all things Cocaine) and found that it was a BACKGROUND contaminant, and lawyers had to prove that with a RANDOM testing of $20.00 bills taken from the parimutuels which, were about the same levels