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Maxspa
11-30-2004, 12:07 PM
All,
Three weeks ago I went to Las Vegas! I frequented the Sports books at Bally's, Paris, Ceasars, and the Mirage. There were no more than a dozen horseplayers at any of the above mentioned books. Sunday the football bettors were in long lines out of the books and into the hallways waiting to bet the over /under etc.
Now I know there are other casinos that cater to the horse player like the Orleans, Sam's Town and the Palms. My question, "Is Horse betting in serious trouble?"
Maxspa

BillW
11-30-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Maxspa
All,
Three weeks ago I went to Las Vegas! I frequented the Sports books at Bally's, Paris, Ceasars, and the Mirage. There were no more than a dozen horseplayers at any of the above mentioned books. Sunday the football bettors were in long lines out of the books and into the hallways waiting to bet the over /under etc.
Now I know there are other casinos that cater to the horse player like the Orleans, Sam's Town and the Palms. My question, "Is Horse betting in serious trouble?"
Maxspa

Max,

I'm far from an expert but the few times I went out to Vegas, the race books were really weak. The local track has much better facilities and a better betting menu, while Vegas is the only "game in town" as far as legal sports betting goes. While I know that sports betting is huge, probably the contrast you observed was also the result of betting opportunites in each area.

Hope you are doing well,

Bill

Valuist
11-30-2004, 12:23 PM
I don't think racing is in trouble but it will never have the vast reach of professional sports. Everyone grows up watching the major sports; everyone thinks they're an expert. The number that grow up watching racing is very small. And lets not forget (rebates notwithstanding) the takeout is much higher in racing.

TOOZ
11-30-2004, 01:58 PM
SUPER BOWL HANDLE
past 10 Super Bowls:
Year Wagers
2004 $81,242,191
2003 $71,693,032
2002 $71,513,304
2001 $67,661,425
2000 $71,046,751
1999 $75,986,520
1998 $77,253,246
1997 $70,853,211
1996 $70,907,801
1995 $69,591,818


If they handle 7 million on the Derby, that's a lot.

BillW
11-30-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by TOOZ
SUPER BOWL HANDLE
past 10 Super Bowls:
Year Wagers
2004 $81,242,191
2003 $71,693,032
2002 $71,513,304
2001 $67,661,425
2000 $71,046,751
1999 $75,986,520
1998 $77,253,246
1997 $70,853,211
1996 $70,907,801
1995 $69,591,818


If they handle 7 million on the Derby, that's a lot.

Handle for this year's derby was $93,315,312 including all Pk-n's involved. Handle for the CD card that day was $144,627,432.

Bill

ceejay
11-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Tooz,

I think your numbers of the derby are off. http://www.drf.com/row/charts/ky_derby_chart.pdf shows 2003 pools. In Millions:
WPS $36.6
Ex $17.4
Tri $19.0
Super $4.9
Others ~$5.6 MM
for a total of about $83 Million. If you consider the 10% juice on football bets vs. the 18% average for racing that makes the Derby more profitable than those reported values (but I don't know if htose football numbers include illegal bookies or not).

TOOZ
11-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Las Vegas sports books only, not nationwide.

Zman179
11-30-2004, 02:48 PM
Yeah but let's face it, sports handle simply dwarfs racing handle. I mean it does make sense. With sports wagering, you have a 50% chance of picking the winner. But to make decent money, you have to sometimes put up decent money. Thus, a bigger handle.

Horse race betting has been a niche market for a very long time. It's definitely not a market in trouble, it just has spread itself out with all of the different mediums available to bet on a race.

BIG RED
11-30-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by BillW
Handle for this year's derby was $93,315,312 including all Pk-n's involved. Handle for the CD card that day was $144,627,432.

Bill

Let's here for horseracing! I wonder if you have the handle for Breeders cup day. I say this because all types of people bet the Super Bowl, just like the Breeders Cup, not just your regulars.

BillW
11-30-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by BIG RED
Let's here for horseracing! I wonder if you have the handle for Breeders cup day. I say this because all types of people bet the Super Bowl, just like the Breeders Cup, not just your regulars.

BIG RED,

I can dig that up -

$112,956,981

BIG RED
11-30-2004, 04:28 PM
I thought it would be more than Kentucky Derby day.

Valuist
11-30-2004, 05:20 PM
Horse racing is legal in most states. Sports wagering is not. There's plenty of money that went offshore or with local bookmakers that isn't in that Super Bowl total. I would guess much, much more. I love racing as much as anyone but nobody can sell me the idea that the Ky Derby or Breeders Cup, from a handle standpoint, even remotely approach the Super Bowl.

dav4463
11-30-2004, 05:25 PM
With horseracing, you can make a big score with a relatively small amount of money. In sportsbetting you really have to have a lot of money to make any decent bets. For that reason alone, you would think more people would play the horses.

Valuist
11-30-2004, 05:29 PM
Thats true but the average person who is new to gambling doesn't understand that. It takes time to learn to handicap and wager properly; look how full the casinos are with people who are entertained by pulling a slot.

fouroneone
11-30-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Valuist
Thats true but the average person who is new to gambling doesn't understand that. It takes time to learn to handicap and wager properly; look how full the casinos are with people who are entertained by pulling a slot.

excellent point,

which is why the slots/video poker rooms will always be more full than the tracks.

Zman179
11-30-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Valuist
Thats true but the average person who is new to gambling doesn't understand that. It takes time to learn to handicap and wager properly; look how full the casinos are with people who are entertained by pulling a slot.

Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular?

BIG RED
11-30-2004, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zman179
[B]Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.

I agree, therefore we should do well, do we ?

BIG RED
11-30-2004, 09:06 PM
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular? [/B]

They're out there

kenwoodallpromos
11-30-2004, 10:02 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zman179
[B]Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.

I agree, therefore we should do well, do we ?

You should do well in relation to how well you outpick your cometition.
Should be easy to outhink those who bet wildly, and those who use information grossly incorrectly.
NFL playoffs, bet the home team when favored is the only other bets I like besides the horses.

hurrikane
11-30-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Zman179
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular?

I don't know...Texas?

Oh yeah, you said North Amreica.

Valuist
12-01-2004, 09:31 AM
This came out yesterday:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20041201/sp_usatoday/cubaneagertobetonstartingmaverickfund

I think there are a few issues with this, like SEC rules as well as US law so I don't think it would be feasible. Also, what sportsbook would take 6 figure wagers from a group of hired guns? And if they did, can you imagine the crazy line movements?

formula_2002
12-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by TOOZ
SUPER BOWL HANDLE
past 10 Super Bowls:
Year Wagers
2004 $81,242,191
2003 $71,693,032
2002 $71,513,304
2001 $67,661,425
2000 $71,046,751
1999 $75,986,520
1998 $77,253,246
1997 $70,853,211
1996 $70,907,801
1995 $69,591,818


If they handle 7 million on the Derby, that's a lot.

Imagine if the played two games on Super-Bowl Sunday.!

fouroneone
12-01-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Zman179
Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular?

I know VERY little about the Japanese Horse Racing Scene, and what state it is in, however i know PACHINKO is the largest form of Gambling in Japan, which is almost identical to slots (i.e. Pull the lever and see what happens).

However, Japan has been influenced by american culture more than any other country in the world over the last 50 years, so i guess that could be a good reason for the similarity.

Zman179
12-01-2004, 05:17 PM
Yeah, but there's a difference.
Pachinko is actually fun to watch! It's almost like a pinball game without the flippers.

depalma13
12-02-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Zman179
Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular?

Morocco

ranchwest
12-02-2004, 11:43 PM
I wonder how many people in offices would buy Kentucky Derby "squares" (exacta).

formula_2002
12-03-2004, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Zman179
Which means that this country is loaded with lazy gamblers.
Can YOU name another country outside of North America where slots are so popular?

I would think any country with a miminum population of two!


or more populated countries could subscribe to this;

New Horse Racing System Makes $500/Hour!!

http://www.freewebs.com/easymoneyathome/


Just think, It could take a horse player decades just to cut down to 2% or 3% what they "think" the effect of a track take-out is. (of course some can do it over night)

But you can just walk up to a crap table and play to a 1 1/2% certain vig by just reading a few pages of a Scarnes book.