Pinnacle v. other race books

[kingfin66]

To my knowledge, Pinnacle is the only online sportsbook that pays full track odds for all types of bets. Does anybody know of any others?

[BillW]

Originally posted by kingfin66
To my knowledge, Pinnacle is the only online sportsbook that pays full track odds for all types of bets. Does anybody know of any others?

Pinnacle has a "maximum net profit" on each race depending on the class of track.

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There is a maximum net profit on each individual race based on the track category. Daily Doubles, Pick 3's, and Pick 4's count towards the last race in its sequence when calculating the race profit. The formula will be Net Profit = Net Payout For Race minus Total Amount Wagered For Race. This resets for every individual race.
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[Blackgold]

I took a good look at whether I should open an account there.

The math doesn't work for me. Mostly because for what is already mentioned in this spread, the max win per race.

Also, I've noticed in other threads that "net receivers" had their rebates reduced to 3-4%.

When I look at all of the above and the possibly of money transfer fees, I found it was not for me.

Plus, you never know when one of the offshore outfits will get into trouble. After being with TeleBet aka ESB, since '97- all of a sudden in the spring of '03 I had trouble cashing out. After running up a bowl game deposit of $300 to over $3,000 by the time GP and FG ended, they wouldn't pay me. For over 6 weeks I tried and couldn't get paid, yet never had a problem in years past. I finally gave up and chased P6's until the balance was 0.

Presently I use Youbet, Brisbet and FGnetbet ('cause they carry magna, which may change now that CD is up).

Good luck everyone and happy thanksgiving (opening day at FG)

[Valuist]

Here's a good board for offshore info:

http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=19

[andicap]

Here is Ken Massa (developer of HTR Software and all-around good guy) said about Pinnacle on his board at www.htr2.com this week. Four out of five Andicaps recommend HTR for those who use software. :)

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Mark, Pinnacle racebook is larger than all the other offshore racebooks put together. They will be the last to go out of business as their sports revenue is massive also. Pinnacle is in that unique situation where they have far more to gain by being honest than by ripping anyone off. Customer service is excellent via email. No problems with payoffs up to $3000 in my experience, used NETELLER to move money in and out.

Having said that - as goes for any offshore entity not covered by US laws - you have no recourse if something goes wrong. Limit exposure with any offshore gambling to $2000 in one place. If you win big, get it out fast.

Pinnacle has restrictions on payout amounts at some minor tracks to $5000. Pretty much full track odds on everything at the majors --- no signers, you'll get the whole wad with no IRS reportage and the 7% rebate instantly deposited to your account. Compare that with E-Horse and others where you get something like 500-1 maximum on supers and 3% rebate. Yet - what if you won $40,000 on Pinny, would you get it all? I don't know either, but sure would like to hear from someone who has won that much and tell us their experience.

Methink the larger threat to your offshore money is the US Government, not the sudden demise of Pinnacle. They have successfully forced the banks to stop transactions via credit cards, etc, to all gambling websites. There is billions in untaxed revenue going back and forth from the islands. If they crackdown hard, could it freeze our accounts somehow?

[Valuist]

The US government CANNOT make offshores give out information on US account holders. And they cannot make the offshores to issue W-2s. From what I've heard, Ashcroft resigning is definitely a good thing. He was anti-gambling. And if Kerry was elected, it likely would've been Eliot Spitzer, which also would've been bad. The US government has enough to worry about without trying to close down offshore wagering.

[PaceAdvantage]

I read a story about a guy who was winning a lot of money betting sports offshore. Turns out he was making big cash deposits in his US bank account....the bank reported him via the anti-terrorist/money laundering laws.....the gov't thought he might be an illegal bookmaker, so they got a warrant for his house.

Long story short, I believe this guy was arrested for gambling offshore, and probably some sort of IRS problems....I'll have to find the story again to see if I have all my facts straight, but you get the picture......

[Valuist]

If they caught him, he probably was winning big. I believe deposits over $10,000 are reported to the IRS. If you are regularly winning more than that, you go down there and collect it yourself. More than worth the airfare. Why give the IRS a paper trail?

[kingfin66]

Thanks. I already have an account at Pinnacle (I don't use in case there are any Feds watching). I was just wondering if any other books were matching their rebate and payouts. It sounds like they aren't.

[GameTheory]

The WTO claims that the U.S. prohibitions against gambling are illegal trade restrictions. The U.S. is appealing, with a decision to be made in the spring, most likely...

[Dave Schwartz]

>>>>>>>
There is a maximum net profit on each individual race based on the track category. Daily Doubles, Pick 3's, and Pick 4's count towards the last race in its sequence when calculating the race profit. The formula will be Net Profit = Net Payout For Race minus Total Amount Wagered For Race. This resets for every individual race.
>>>>>>

Be aware that the above paragraph applies to all players wagering, not just you.

Yes, I verified this with Pinnacle.

I do not know if they have ever applied this rule, but they obviously can.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[cj]

Originally posted by Valuist
If they caught him, he probably was winning big. I believe deposits over $10,000 are reported to the IRS. If you are regularly winning more than that, you go down there and collect it yourself. More than worth the airfare. Why give the IRS a paper trail?

You would still have a paper trail, you can't come back through customs with that kind of cash without explaining from where it came.

[Valuist]

Just out of curiousity, I wonder at what point does customs start questioning how much money one has.

[cj]

I believe its 10,000, but I don't know specifics. I guess you could make enough trips to keep it safe, but it would probably cost you your rebate to do it.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Valuist
Just out of curiousity, I wonder at what point does customs start questioning how much money one has.

I seem to remember that $10,000 is the trigger point for any transaction, for instance a standard bank deposit to be reported.

[Light]

I was not aware that Pinnacle does not report large winnings to the IRS. Certainly doesn't mean you can relax if you do cash out without paying taxes.

There was a guy several years ago who won the Canadian lottery.Canada does not tax gambling winnings. Upon moving to the U.S.,Irs officials insisted he pay taxes on his winnings.He argued that since he won them in Canada,and not the U.S.,he shouldn't have to. Irs disagreed. He went to jail. Last I heard of him.

[Valuist]

I have to admit getting a tremendous adrenaline rush the first time I hit a "non-signer" signer at Pinnacle. Then getting rebated for the bet on top of it. Racing is taxed enough.

[ceejay]

Just curious, does US law require citizens to pay taxes on winnings from abroad (irrelevent of whether they are reported or not)?

[hurrikane]

I believe the reporting on 10k is for cash transactions. Not checks or electronic deposits.

This guy must have been hammering them good to get popped.
or he was laundering money.

[Dave Schwartz]

Ceejay,

>>>Just curious, does US law require citizens to pay taxes on winnings from abroad (irrelevent of whether they are reported or not)?<<<


I believe there is an issue of how long you are out of the country. I think if you are a resident of another country and gone for over one year you are exempt from taxation.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[ceejay]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Ceejay,

>>>Just curious, does US law require citizens to pay taxes on winnings from abroad (irrelevent of whether they are reported or not)?<<<


I believe there is an issue of how long you are out of the country. I think if you are a resident of another country and gone for over one year you are exempt from taxation.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

But if you are a US resident betting abroad?

[Equineer]

Given the new anti-terror/laundering initiatives, anyone have an opinion on IRS 1040 Schedule B, Part III, Line 7?

Are there new/stiffer penalties for not reporting foreign accounts?

Does this IRS issue apply to wagering accounts (Pinnacle and others say our funds are put in a safely insured escrow account)?

7a. At any time during 200x, did you have an interest in or a signature or other authority over a financial account in any foreign country, such as a bank account, securities account, or other financial account?

7b. If "Yes" enter the name of the foreign country.

Also, there is also form TD F 90-22.1 to think about.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Dave,

You wrote "I believe there is an issue of how long you are out of the country. I think if you are a resident of another country and gone for over one year you are exempt from taxation."

That's true if you do not earn too much. It is the first $80,000 you earn that is exempt from taxes. So if you start making a million bucks a year from wagering, you can't move to a Carribean island and pay no taxes. <G>

Ceejay wrote "But if you are a US resident betting abroad?"

As I understand the tax law, it makes no difference. Uncle Sam wants his cut. You are allowed to deduct foreign taxes paid. For example, say you won ten million dollars in Sweden and the Swedish government taxed you five million. You could take a tax credit for this five million. So you would owe no US taxes on the remaining five million. But say you won ten million in Canada where gambling winnings are not taxed. You would owe about 3.5 million to the US government.

Mike Nunamaker

[Dave Schwartz]

Ceejay,

>>But if you are a US resident betting abroad?<<


From the US? I am sure you must pay taxes on the money and will be prosecuted if you get caught not paying.


Dave

[Valuist]

A heads up for those who have Pinnacle accounts. I've only had an account with them for about 4 months and never had a problem but a potential one did arise yesterday. I went to check the account history and it was a little less than I expected. Before I left work yesterday, I bet a set of Pic 3s on races 7-9 at Hawthorne. Shortly after I left work, Hawthorne decided to cancel the races due to the blizzard. Pinnacle graded that wager as lost. I did submit an inquiry and I don't anticipate a problem but had I not, that money would never have been recovered. Always good to check the account history detail.

[rrbauer]

On cancelled races, scratches from "pick" bets, etc., they are usually late in processing the refund. Even if the bet ticket says that the bet lost, there can be a refund show up later.

They handle the scratches from pick bets the best of anyone. They refund all of the money going on the scratched horse(s) even if it is in a downstream leg and an earlier leg was a loser.

[Valuist]

Rr-

You are correct. They did end up re-grading the wager and refunding the money.