Red vs. Blue States [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Equineer

11-21-2004, 10:34 PM

That factoid squares with an anonymous 1999 white paper entitled "Coalition of the Poor and Naive," which used census demographics to map a plan for exploiting poor and politically naive voters.

One part of the plan called for wooing the Latino vote by encouraging and legalizing a massive infusion of Spanish speaking workers into key states. By projection, 2010 was targeted as the national turning point when legalized Latino voters could outnumber black voters.

A second but longer range tactical recommendation was aimed at neutralizing so-called Clinton Republicans. The white paper envisioned "outsourcing this traitorous herd of middle class voters into extinction."

Some Democrats insist that Karl Rove authored these plans, asserting that Rove has always believed the future of the Republican Party depends upon building a dependable coalition of voters who respond to primitive emotional sound bites.

;)

Steve 'StatMan'

11-21-2004, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Equineer
Some Democrats insist that Karl Rove authored these plans, asserting that Rove has always believed the future of the Republican Party depends upon building a dependable coalition of voters who respond to primitive emotional sound bites.

;)

Of course, the vast majority of the Union Vote and the Black Vote goes to the Democrats, because their leaders tell 'their people' to vote that way. Sounds like the Dem's have had a pretty 'dependable coaltion of voters who respond' to their leader's agendas for decades. If this premise is indeed true, then maybe the Repub's realized they need to keep up with the Jones's in this regard. :cool:

Tom

11-22-2004, 10:48 AM

This sounds like watching the one voted off Survivor when they show up on the morning show Fridays-crying the blues about how unfair they were treated. blah blah blah.
Loser talk is always boring.

ceejay

11-22-2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Equineer
That factoid squares with an anonymous 1999 white paper entitled "Coalition of the Poor and Naive," which used census demographics to map a plan for exploiting poor and politically naive voters.

One part of the plan called for wooing the Latino vote by encouraging and legalizing a massive infusion of Spanish speaking workers into key states. By projection, 2010 was targeted as the national turning point when legalized Latino voters could outnumber black voters.

A second but longer range tactical recommendation was aimed at neutralizing so-called Clinton Republicans. The white paper envisioned "outsourcing this traitorous herd of middle class voters into extinction."

Some Democrats insist that Karl Rove authored these plans, asserting that Rove has always believed the future of the Republican Party depends upon building a dependable coalition of voters who respond to primitive emotional sound bites.

;)

Can you please provde a reference to this "white paper?" Or were the winks ;) indicating a joke (I'm kinda slow).

Equineer

11-22-2004, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by ceejay
Can you please provde a reference to this "white paper?" Or were the winks ;) indicating a joke (I'm kinda slow). Just having some fanciful fun with the unfortunate truth that campaigns are becoming strategic gaming exercises that are often detached from political idealogies.

Topcat

03-22-2005, 02:56 AM

I found this factoid interesting. from NY Times Magazine. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/magazine/21WWLN.html?oref=login

Break it down by county to county and it is the opposite.
This is just the same sort of loser rationlization you see at the race track from people who have no clue why they lost.
Thanks for the link just the same.

Suff

03-22-2005, 06:56 AM

Break it down by county to county and it is the opposite.
.

Break what down county by county and it becomes the opposite?

Can you provide a source for that? Or an explanation?

Topcat

03-22-2005, 10:14 AM

Break what down county by county and it becomes the opposite?

Can you provide a source for that? Or an explanation?

A.C. Nielsen Spectra Demographics which can take data down to the zip code.

Suff

03-22-2005, 10:36 AM

A.C. Nielsen Spectra Demographics which can take data down to the zip code.

I see.

SO when that happens.... as you suggest something that is posted here becomes the opposite. I was wondering what "that" is.

If you point me to a link I'll go work on it myself.

But what I was asking before I do that was.. You said when it done by county it becomes the opposite?
Per Captia Income?

Topcat

03-22-2005, 01:21 PM

SO when that happens.... as you suggest something that is posted here becomes the opposite. I was wondering what "that" is.

If you point me to a link I'll go work on it myself.

But what I was asking before I do that was.. You said when it done by county it becomes the opposite?
Per Captia Income?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Per capita income. Levels of wealth.

A.C. Nielsen Spectra is a subscription site but I imagine you can find it elsewhere. I also looked at Infinet's Household Panel data. Freevies are the secretary of state voter summaries that each state put out summarize votes.

All the hired hands break it down by congressional district-that is why you won't hear Carville repeating such "factoids" he knows it isn't so and it just comes across as sour grapes. There is a much better argument to be made that the Democratic Party is the one reaching out to minorities-these sort of "factoids" might make someone feel good, but it undermines the Party by sendign a mixed message.

The Red State/ Blue State split is largely driven by ethnic breaks and in particular African American vote going 84% for the Democratic candidate. African Americans as a group are lower income and in the context of the article “. African American voters are driving the county by county trends. Just look at S. CA. Orange County is the wealth producer and went over welmingly for Bush. LA County which is heavy African American went for Kerry. It is why Utah goes overwhelmngly for GOP candidates. It is about as white as saltine crackers. Minnesota and WI are the better arguments but those two states Kerry won by a narrower margin than Bush one Ohio. It was was 11,000 in WI and if not for the vote from the few ethnic areas in WI Kerry loses that state. MN has a long tradition of the Farm-Labor Party which the Democratic party wisely co-opted.

African Americans are about 12% of the population and that means that a little over 10% of the vote goes for the Democratic or about 20% of the Dems vote comes from African Americans. That is why Donna Brazile is concerned about recent trends and recruiting by the GOP among African Americans . Without the African American vote the Democratic Party would not have won a national election since the 60s. Or put conversely, If the Republican party had to rely on minority voters they would be holding as few seats as Libertarians. I do find it sad that the vote in the 21st century is still split among ethnic lines although the GOP is approaching 50/50 among Hispanic voters with Bush getting 45% of that vote and the Hispanic vote is the fastest growing ethnic group.

This doesn't deny the idea that there are liberals and conservatives I just find the “factoid” an ineffectual arguement.

The Democratic Party chose to outsource much of it’s voter drive and did too much of it through somtietime unprofessional organizations and that is why the Republicans Ken Mehlman out perfomred the Democratic Party at the district level. He had mutliple voluteers at the dictrict level and keyed on districts they knew they needed to turn out. Ken Mehlman was the real guy the Democrtic Party shoudl ahve feared not Rove but Mehlman was content to fly under the radar screen unlike some Democratic operatives who hogged the camera away from Kerry.

Ironci isn’t it: The party of so-called “small goverment” uses a central approach and the party of
“big goverment” uses a decentrlized approach and loses- and after the election the party of the poor has elites trying to sell the public that they are really the party of the affluent. Whew-if this keeps up you can pencil in the GOP candidate for prez in 2008.

Topcat

03-22-2005, 01:42 PM

Oops that should read :Freebies are the secretary of state voter summaries that each state put out summarize votes. :not freevies-

ElKabong

03-22-2005, 02:19 PM

Interesting, yet the more affluent counties in New Jersey voted in greater numbers for GWB.

Only could find this study (1989) that registered household income for NJ. I assume these counties are still atop the list?

http://www.wnjpin.state.nj.us/OneStopCareerCenter/LaborMarketInformation/lmi01/njinct1.htm

And here are the election results by county from the 04 election.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/PresidentialByCounty.aspx?oi=P&rti=G&sp=NJ&tf=l

Cape May, Hunterdon, Monmouth, Morris, Ocean, Salem, Somerset, Sussex, Warren counties all went to GWB.....

Looks as if 6 of the 7 most affluent counties voted, in majority, for Bush.

Another writer might have printed the headline "Poor, less skilled workers in Blue states vote Democrat, whereas their more affluent counterparts vote Republican".

Suff

03-22-2005, 03:07 PM

.

Another writer might have printed the headline "Poor, less skilled workers in Blue states vote Democrat, whereas their more affluent counterparts vote Republican".

Or another Poster might have chosen Massachusetts or Connecticut instead of the State where the Democratic Governer got embroiled in a Same Sex infidelity scandal shortly before the national election. However, was still was carried by Democrats.

I encourage comparisons between Red & Blue States. I'd really like to see Red States improve and carry thier own Budgets, instead of the wealth distribution system in place now, where the wealthy Blue States carry the majority of the federal Outlays.

sq764

03-22-2005, 04:24 PM

I encourage comparisons between Red & Blue States. I'd really like to see Red States improve and carry thier own Budgets, instead of the wealth distribution system in place now, where the wealthy Blue States carry the majority of the federal Outlays.
Since California and New York combined contribue almost 1/4 of the outlay, that's not a very fair argument.

ElKabong

03-22-2005, 05:38 PM

Or another Poster might have chosen Massachusetts or Connecticut instead of the State where the Democratic Governer got embroiled in a Same Sex infidelity scandal shortly before the national election. However, was still was carried by Democrats.

I encourage comparisons between Red & Blue States. I'd really like to see Red States improve and carry thier own Budgets, instead of the wealth distribution system in place now, where the wealthy Blue States carry the majority of the federal Outlays.

Good points suff. I'd like to encourage something else as well fro S and grins... Let's ship all the illegals from Mexico in the US southwest to Mass, Conn, NJ, etc and watch your state funds get sucked dry by these freeloaders. Our schools have to educate their kids, our hospitals have to give them free medical treatment for routine care, oftentimes beyond such, their mere presence in the numbers they have has lowered the salary for manual laborers, eliminated many jobs traditionally held by teenagers looking for extra $ to go out on dates or routine youthful expenditures, as well as skilled craftsmen & laborers....I know a guy that used to be a carpenter/ handyman. Made $12 an hr 7 years ago (here, that certainly isn't/ wasn't great pay, but not that bad considering what he did). Was given the ultimatum of working for half that $12 an hr or get out....He's doing something else now.

If Mass had that problem you'd be up a creek. Imagine paying those state income taxes you fork over up there on half your salary.....

I'm gonna cut my post short, but I worked for a local electronics corp that was bought out by Raytheon in the mid 90s. Talk all you like about receiving higher pay in Mass....I know better thru experience. My salary went a helluva lot farther than my Mass counterparts. Their cost of living and state income taxes there sucked out the higher salaries. My lifestyle/ standard of living was far better than theirs, compadre. Ask Lsbets as well about the quality of life and cost of living here vs the east coast. He's explained it before previously here.

Bottom line, swap the "illegals" scenario and you're on the bottom of the pile in a hurry. As a registered Independant, I look at this as a WASHINGTON problem, not a GWB problem, or a Clinton rear view mirror problem. Every day of my life we've had illegals cross the border. Democrat, Republican, doesn't matter. No administration has ever touched the problem and it needs attention. Until then, the #'s will always read the way they are.

Suff

03-22-2005, 08:08 PM

If Mass had that problem you'd be up a creek. Imagine paying those state income taxes you fork over up there on half your salary.....

.

All Big Citys have immigration problems. And not only are we paying the NUT for our social ills, we are paying the NUT for huge chunk of the Red States.
We're over run by illegals here? You don't think so? Believe me. We are.

And have you been to NYC lately? Makes Texas look like Leave it To Beaver.

The truth is... Liberal States generate the economic power that Drives this country.

You mentioned Lifestyle and Standard of Living? Yours is/was better? How do you define that? I can offer up some standards, and encourage you to pick any congregate group and you'll find BLUE States "embarass" Red States.

What Standards would you like to use?
% of Students that Graduate High School?
& of students that Go On to a 4 year College?
% of Students with Post Graduate Degrees?
% of Homeownership?
% of Divorce?
% of citizens that own a Car?
% of Citizens that Take a Vacation 1x or 2x times per year?
% of citizens Living In Poverty?
Literacy rates?
Neo-natal care?
% of residents with Health Insurance?
% of Residents with a 401K, or other retiremnet vehicle?
% of Residenst with Solid Credit, or credit cards?
% of residents that use PUBLIC LIBRARY?
% of Book Sales demographics from Borders and Amazon?
% of citizens incacerated or on Parole or probation??

I could go on... And You know I could. The fact is, that Poverty rates, and illiterate rates in some RED States are bordering close to some 3rd world countrys.

And the BLUE states are paying the way for these SOCIAL failures of Conservative culture.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/sr132.pdf

Kentucky, W. VA, Miss, ALA, are the biggest drag on our entire economy. The contribute nothing,,, not one net Tax dollar to the Federal Budget. Niether does New Mexico.. who for every $1.00 it pays in Federal Tax's...The BLUE STATES Kick back damn near $2.00 to keep them solvent.

Its all there in the MAP...

And consider some popular right-wing rhetoric -- . You see, RePugs have a favorite word to describe us "socialists." They are forever braying about "redistribution." Come to find out, red states have been major beneficiaries of redistribution. You can drive all over the south and west on interstate highways, passing hydroelectric dams and military installations all built with tax dollars from the blue states. And let's not forget agricultural subsidies and price supports, again financed with taxes collected in New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts and California. As for California, by itself, is the seventh largest economy in the world. Mississippi isn't.

While we're at it, let's just ask why the US has price supports and farm subsidies. Here's the answer. To protect farmers from the ravages of the "free market." It seems we New Deal liberals decided that feeding the nation was hard work worthy of decent remuneration. The "free market" in the 1920's had driven farmers into destitution. Franklin Roosevelt fixed that with the result that American farmers are the most productive on the face of the earth. They are also quite prosperous -- thank you very much. In fact, they're so prosperous, they think they're Republicans.

The truth is that the red states are prosperous because the blue states agreed that preserving our agricultural base in the "global market" was a good idea. Will Republican congressmen from those red states return the favor by helping preserve our manufacturing base? Oh, hell no. The fact is that many poor white farmers in the south and west have turned into rich white farmers, thanks to "redistribution" in the form of progressive taxation on the millionaires who live in the Hudson valley. Will 'Republicans in the south and west agree to similar efforts to end urban poverty -- the way we ended rural poverty in the thirties and forties? Oh, hell no.

Tom

03-22-2005, 08:35 PM

OK, then, We agree - rasie taxes in BLUE states because they are the wealthiest people. :lol:

ElKabong

03-22-2005, 08:51 PM

Suff, you ask>>You mentioned Lifestyle and Standard of Living? Yours is/was better? How do you define that?

I define that from personal experience. When Raytheon bought out our division some of Raytheon's Mfg personnel came down to look at our plant & check things out to see what could be consolidated, and so forth. Comments of how far our salaries go vs theirs (as in homes owned, automobiles in the lot, cost of living, etc, etc) was a gripe for them. Keep in mind we're talking about engineers and tech's. Traditionally a tightwad group.

We also had managers move to Boston (and Tucson and LA) and they complained the adjusted pay hikes weren't enuff to offset the move to Mass.

That's an odd survey you go by, suff. In 20+ years of working for a company (the locally owned and later, Raytheon) that employs over 15,000 employees, no one ever asked me how many vacations per year I took....funny stuff, man.

ElKabong

03-22-2005, 09:24 PM

And have you been to NYC lately? Makes Texas look like Leave it To Beaver.

...

Texas has double the Hispanic population than that of NY state's. In fact you can take all 5 states you listed and the total # of Hispanics still doesn't equal the # of Hispanics in Texas.

Besides suff, this is starting to run down a racial path, not one of illegal aliens. My arguement is all about "Illegals", not US citizens..."Makes Texas look like Leave it to beaver" doesn't belong...The greater proportion of the illegals are in the southwest USA, not in NYC.

sq764

03-22-2005, 09:52 PM

% of Students that Graduate High School?
% of Homeownership?

Let's take 2 of your first 4 and you tell me which side they favor:

Home ownership Rankings:

1)West Virginia

Graduation Rates by State:

1) Iowa
2) North Dakota

sq764

03-22-2005, 10:02 PM

And in this day and age, these 2 standards are just stupid to even mention
There's more information at your fingertips online than any library can hold..

% of residents that use PUBLIC LIBRARY?
% of Book Sales demographics from Borders and Amazon?

Equineer

03-23-2005, 12:45 AM

Suff,

Here is an interesting demographic...

Historically, and certainly today, a very aggressive foreign policy has been the trademark of the neo-con movement.

Given this, one would think neo-cons would be worldly-wise.

However, when neo-cons are asked, "What is a passport?" - the most common responses are:
A Honda car.
A Scotch whiskey.
A Hunter ceiling fan.

Suff

03-23-2005, 07:23 AM

Suff, you ask>>You mentioned Lifestyle and Standard of Living? Yours is/was better? How do you define that?

Mass.

That's an odd survey you go by, suff. In 20+ years of working for a company (the locally owned and later, Raytheon) that employs over 15,000 employees, no one ever asked me how many vacations per year I took....funny stuff, man.

My Point is... Its Myth to think quality of Life Statistics favor RED States.

State legislators, Governers and Policy managers attempt everyday, to get the type of Numbers that have been produced by Blue States, and in Particular, North East States. Across the Board in Most Social Catergories, Blue States show more success in the areas I mentioned.

lsbets

03-23-2005, 07:31 AM

Suff

03-23-2005, 07:44 AM

Let's take 2 of your first 4 and you tell me which side they favor:

Home ownership Rankings:

1)West Virginia

Graduation Rates by State:

1) Iowa
2) North Dakota

Don't you understand that I Don;t want to debate politics and culture with you? By your own admission you have limited experience with it. And I doubt your intentions in a thread like this. Because I doubt you have any serious interest in the TAX BASIS of the RED/BLUE States.. But in fact, are just looking to debate something, anything, and if it involves me, even better.

Plus your not intellectually capable , nor honest enough to participate.

My Post said take any group of Stats, in a Congragate. You listed 2, then only listed the top 1 and 2. In Most of these Categorys... when you take the TOP 10 States, 6 or 7 of them are BLUE States... In any Category or any single category you can find exceptions, but as far as "across the Board".. Its not a debatable point that Blue States have success's exceeding other parts of the Country.

But More importantly... I posted this Tax Graph a couple of years ago... Long before you were even interested in Politics. This isn't really your Forte. Your simply looking for trouble. Your doing Google search's to grab something contrdictory to mine and jumping in with it, simply to argue the other side. I doubt't you've given provincialism much thought over the last 15 years or so. Maybe the 15 minutes you took to look up the stats was fruitful for you... But You did'nt address the Point , the broader point of where Blue State Social and Cultural Statistics stack up vs the RED States.

Suff

03-23-2005, 07:46 AM

Suff

03-23-2005, 07:52 AM

http://www.taxfoundation.org/sr132.pdf

Kentucky, W. VA, Miss, ALA, are the biggest drag on our entire economy. The contribute nothing,,, not one net Tax dollar to the Federal Budget. Niether does New Mexico.. who for every $1.00 it pays in Federal Tax's...The BLUE STATES Kick back damn near $2.00 to keep them solvent.

Its all there in the MAP...

It Just Kills them when you show them clear as day, that BLue States pay the Bills.

It tears them up.. because they are High and Mighty with that "Individual Responsibility" and that "Get a Job" mentatility and the "Welfare Lovin Liberals" chant they like to sing..

But them you show them.. right here in black and white.. A huge chunk of Red States..and most Southern States pay NO Federal Tax.. NONE.. Th eFedral Govt. spends more Money in the State then the Citizens contribute.

And it is so odd that it isn't one or two.. its entire geographic areas... and its mostly RED States

Would anyone care to address that? Where's "RED STATES ROCK" Ralph? Huh? Jesus if yoru gonna tell me how to live, and what prays I should saying and how to get medical care for my Dying Mom, and your going to give my Job to an Illegal alien, and your going to take away my Overtime, Could you at least PAY YOUR OWN GODAMN BILLS!!

Kreed

03-23-2005, 08:08 AM

I dont mind helping Red States financially --we live in the UNITED States-- but
I resent their Activism on matters that are so old & UNprovable and their only
"contribution" being stuck in Time on religion. I think its about time we TAX
EVERY church, EVERY religion: NO FREE RIDES on property & assests. Then,
maybe their God du jour will have the opportunity to "send" them funds. It's
time to see real miracles. PS: I say this even for my Church & Religion. PAY
YOUR WAY, please. Have a happy day, i'm off to wall st to make MONEY ---
it's my contribution to the world.

Suff

03-23-2005, 08:10 AM

Suff, I grew up in the Northeast, and I gotgta tell you - I would never move back there again, its way too expensive. My wife and I live much better in Texas than our friends who we grew up with do in NJ. The plain fact is the cost of living is much higher in the northeast and the salary difference doesn't cover it. I've lived in both places. I'll take Dallas over anywhere in NJ any day.

I've lived all over the country. Its nice when a Dollar goes Further. When I lived in San Diego, I had a Townhouse, with a Pool, Jacuzzi, Tennis Courts, when I lived in Miami, I rented a House for $1500.00 a Month, 3 beds, Golf course, Country Club, Pool, Tennis, Gated Community...

It is nice when Bucks go further...

JustRalph

03-23-2005, 08:51 AM

Where's "RED STATES ROCK" Ralph? Huh?

Don't try to drag me into this quagmire. I don't need to have you calling me Stupid and fat, again.........I see lots of good points on both sides. But I won't get baited into this.

Suff

03-23-2005, 09:00 AM

Don't try to drag me into this quagmire. I don't need to have you calling me Stupid and fat, again.........I see lots of good points on both sides. But I won't get baited into this.

lol.. Did I call You stupid or fat? If I did, I'm sorry. I meant portly and intellectually challenged. :D

JustRalph

03-23-2005, 09:17 AM

lol.. Did I call You stupid or fat? If I did, I'm sorry. I meant portly and intellectually challenged. :D

Nice......

sq764

03-23-2005, 09:19 AM

Your too stupid to understand why they are relevant.
Your problem, as everyone knows, is that you don't know much of what you speak.. All you can do is shoot insults, it shows your lack of intelligence..

It's sad when you cannot even defend your position, because you failed to do any research. You're pathetic.

sq764

03-23-2005, 09:21 AM

Nice......
Don't even bother with him, he's trailer park trash just looking for an argument. That's all the mindless can do. He's an uneducated, lonely, sad human.. Let's just thank God no woman has agreed to procreate with him as of yet.

sq764

03-23-2005, 09:23 AM

Nice guy you defend here. You post that everyone is on notice, but you sit back and watch Suff, within 3 posts, call someone stupid, then another person fat and stupid.. Totally unprovoked.

If you want to know who's ruining these threads, look very closely to your 'friends'..

Suff

03-23-2005, 10:17 AM

Jesus Christ what do I do with a Godam Guy like you.. Man Am I looking foward to meeting you some day. The more you come after me.. The more I am tempted to get on 95S and come see you..

I'm hurling insults? Where? I have an entire post of statistics and hypothesis here? Where is the Insult until you said it was "stupid" to use the category of Book Sales and Book Reading. I responded that your to stupid to even make that surmastion. And you are. I have many facts included in my posts.. but as I said to you.. I don't want to debate you.. because you have proven yourself as a Trouble maker ...and I don't want to deal with you. And you know that. But yet you persist.

All Big Citys have immigration problems. And not only are we paying the NUT for our social ills, we are paying the NUT for huge chunk of the Red States.
We're over run by illegals here? You don't think so? Believe me. We are.

And have you been to NYC lately? Makes Texas look like Leave it To Beaver.

The truth is... Liberal States generate the economic power that Drives this country.

You mentioned Lifestyle and Standard of Living? Yours is/was better? How do you define that? I can offer up some standards, and encourage you to pick any congregate group and you'll find BLUE States "embarass" Red States.

What Standards would you like to use?
% of Students that Graduate High School?
& of students that Go On to a 4 year College?
% of Students with Post Graduate Degrees?
% of Homeownership?
% of Divorce?
% of citizens that own a Car?
% of Citizens that Take a Vacation 1x or 2x times per year?
% of citizens Living In Poverty?
Literacy rates?
Neo-natal care?
% of residents with Health Insurance?
% of Residents with a 401K, or other retiremnet vehicle?
% of Residenst with Solid Credit, or credit cards?
% of residents that use PUBLIC LIBRARY?
% of Book Sales demographics from Borders and Amazon?
% of citizens incacerated or on Parole or probation??

I could go on... And You know I could. The fact is, that Poverty rates, and illiterate rates in some RED States are bordering close to some 3rd world countrys.

And the BLUE states are paying the way for these SOCIAL failures of Conservative culture.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/sr132.pdf

Kentucky, W. VA, Miss, ALA, are the biggest drag on our entire economy. The contribute nothing,,, not one net Tax dollar to the Federal Budget. Niether does New Mexico.. who for every $1.00 it pays in Federal Tax's...The BLUE STATES Kick back damn near $2.00 to keep them solvent.

Its all there in the MAP...

Suff

03-23-2005, 10:18 AM

Nice......

You serious? Beyond me. I've never met you.. don't know what you weigh... and I put a smiley face beside my comments..... :D

and as usual.. when some facts are presented that people do not agree with.. it gets personal.

JustRalph

03-23-2005, 10:27 AM

You serious? Beyond me. I've never met you.. don't know what you weigh... and I put a smiley face beside my comments..... :D

and as usual.. when some facts are presented that people do not agree with.. it gets personal.

I just don't want to get pulled into this crap. Thats all. It takes a bunch more than that to get me truly pissed........you know that. But.....I just don't have the stomach for the argument anymore................this place just isn't as much fun as before.

sq764

03-23-2005, 10:27 AM

Jesus Christ what do I do with a Godam Guy like you.. Man Am I looking foward to meeting you some day. The more you come after me.. The more I am tempted to get on 95S and come see you..

Hey no one's coming after you big daddy.. You're the one hurling the insults, calling me stupid.. I post a thread about basketball, nothing at all to do with you and you just have to get involved and jump in with more insults.. Don't sit there and play the innocent victim when you start this bullshit, totally unprovoked. Shall we call you Barry Bonds now and feel sorry for you?

You have, however, completed the final step of the online Napolean, with the 'I am going to beat you up' reference.. You don't know me from Adam, so I would be careful what you wish for..

Have a nice life..

Suff

03-23-2005, 10:30 AM

I just don't want to get pulled into this crap. Thats all. It takes a bunch more than that to get me truly pissed........you know that. But.....I just don't have the stomach for the argument anymore................this place just isn't as much fun as before.

Ok.. Just so wer'e square. I didn't intend on insulting you.. I mighta had a few beers in me when I did... because I don't recall it. My Affcetion for this place also ebbs and flows... and I hope you feel better about it with time and events.

PaceAdvantage

03-23-2005, 10:33 AM

The IGNORE function is working on this board, last time I looked. Why don't a few of you take advantage of it?

And Suff, you criticize more than a couple folks on here for using "Google" to get their facts to post. Where did you get your facts? Have you spent years studying in the academy, or working for government agencies that compile all the stuff you post? Have you done first hand research somewhere other than the internet?

To be honest here Suff, from one Blue state guy to another, you're coming off here as more than a bit arrogant....you've posted all this stuff before about how superior the precious Blue states are....you throw out all these stats.....

Stats are good here, but they don't work in the horse racing topic....strange...

Suff

03-23-2005, 10:46 AM

The IGNORE function is working on this board, last time I looked. Why don't a few of you take advantage of it?

To be honest here Suff, from one Blue state guy to another, you're coming off here as more than a bit arrogant....you've posted all this stuff before about how superior the precious Blue states are....you throw out all these stats.....

Stats are good here, but they don't work in the horse racing topic....strange...

I have had the material for 3 years your right.. Not 3 minutes...

I steered the direction of the converstaion this was when someone made the point about "wealty more affluent" voters , went overwhelming for BUsh

and I steered the conversation this was when ElkaBong said BLUE STATES would be at the Bottom if not for thier Social and Cultural Ills...

I was "responding"... and I assume, maybe improperly , because you side frequently with Red State Voters.. You don't see that.

ANd yes.. I have been Poltically aware for 30 years, and have inumerable books, biographies, and historical accounts on subject like this and more..

and in Case you missed it... The thread Title is RED Vs Blue..

I have posted relevant information.. that as of yet.. has gone unresponded too ....

PaceAdvantage

03-23-2005, 01:12 PM

But why criticize where people get stats or facts from? If they're valid, it doesn't matter where they come from.

NoDayJob

03-23-2005, 03:19 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, this food fight is as good as, maybe even better, than those on the old DRF or Yahoo forums. Keep it going folks and PA will have you for lunch! Ha, ha!

NDJ

Tom

03-23-2005, 07:18 PM

Red states vs Blue states is a crock of crap. ALL states have both red and blue people in them. I live in a blue state has anyone here ever mistook me for a liberal democrate?:rolleyes:

PaceAdvantage

03-23-2005, 07:52 PM

Good point Tom. Why divide....unite! We're all Americans.

Suff

03-25-2005, 11:10 AM

Living in Reality, Part I: Debunking Conservative Mythology

Conservative Myth #1: The Federal “Guv’ment is Bad! (Except for when we conservative piggies in red states gorge ourselves at the federal trough):

As that excellent table provided by the Tax Foundation indicates, the red states, while paying lip service to hating the evil federal guv’ment, sure don’t mind sucking up federal dollars. This chart clearly indicates that the so-called “conservative” red states are collecting more federal pork than they pay in taxes. Red, a color once associated with Communism—that seems to be an appropriate color for these conservative hypocrites. Check out these facts:

Alabama, that conservative bastion of America, collects $1.61 in federal expenditures for every dollar of tax revenue it pays the federal government.
Massachusetts, which conservatives claim is the Soviet Union of American states, collects only 79¢ in federal expenditures for every dollar it contributes. Us liberal commies in Massachusetts, how dare we finance that highway in Alabama or that welfare queen in Indiana!
With the exception of Maine and Hawaii, the top 20 states who got more federal expenditures than they paid for are red states that went to Bush in the election.

Here are some amazing facts about welfare, that evil bane of conservatives. Did you know that the top ten states in terms of federal expenditures for welfare per dollar in taxes paid are RED STATES! (Well, except Washington, DC, which isn’t a state.)

Check out the facts (expenditures paid out to welfare for every tax dollar paid in):

1. D.C. ($6.17) (This isn’t a state, so we’ll disregard it).

2. North Dakota ($2.03)

3. New Mexico ($1.89)

4. Mississippi ($1.84)

5. Alaska ($1.82)

6. West Virginia ($1.74)

7. Montana ($1.64)

8. Alabama ($1.61)

9. South Dakota ($1.59)

10. Arkansas ($1.53)

Oh my. All you red states and your welfare queens, shame on you!

All that talk of self-reliance and hating to pay federal taxes by the red states sure seems to ring hollow when you study the facts. Cutting back the federal government sure doesn’t seem like a good idea for all these parasitic red states, yet that’s what they want. We shall see how “self-reliant” these states are when they try to build highways or pay for their state services without generous federal subsidies.

We blue states get less than what we pay for from the federal government, but we’re liberals and are glad we’re helping those poor cornpones in the red states so they can keep themselves afloat.

The myth: We don’t need no federal guv’ment in red states. We believe in self-reliance.

The reality: The red states would go broke without federal subsidies. And they should thank the blue states for their generosity in paying more to and receiving less from the evil guv’ment than the red states.

Conservative Myth #2: We in the Red States Have Higher Family Values

Here are some amazing facts [Special hat tip to Factory of Infinite Bliss].

The ten states with the highest divorce rates are red states (# of divorces per 1000 residents):

1. Nevada (9.0)

2. Arkansas (7.1)

3. Oklahoma (6.7)

4. Tennessee (6.6)

5. Wyoming (6.5)

6. Indiana (6.4)

7. Alabama (6.2)

8. Idaho (6.2)

9. New Mexico (6.0)

10. Florida (5.9)

The ten lowest state divorce rates belong to blue states except one (in bold):

1. Massachusetts (2.4)

2. Connecticut (2.8)

3. New Jersey (3.0)

4. Rhode Island (3.2)

5. New York (3.3)

6. Pennsylvania (3.3)

7. Wisconsin (3.4)

8. North Dakota (3.4)

9. Maryland (3.5)

10. Minnesota (3.6)

Myth: We conservatives in red states believe in family values.

Reality: Maybe we don’t.

lsbets

03-25-2005, 01:11 PM

Yeah, gay marriage - Massachusettes is a real bastion of the family. Better yet - the Kennedy family - yeah, those are some family values there. Cut the lecture crap Suff, you're not nearly as superior as you think you are. I wouldn't raise my children in Massachuttes if I made three times the money I do now.

Look at population trends over the last 20 years Suff, it seems the public prefers red states to blue states and are voting with their feet.

Tom

03-25-2005, 01:26 PM

Suff

03-25-2005, 01:27 PM

Yeah, gay marriage - Massachusettes is a real bastion of the family. .

I think Gay people make equally as good a family unit as straight people do. You find homosexulity a threat to the Family. I do not.

Better yet - the Kennedy family - yeah, those are some family values there.

Most successful political Familys model themselves after the Loyalty, determination and desire for public service that the Kennedys have demonsrated. From Joe Sr as the First CEO of the SEC, and US ammbassodor to England, to Joe JR who was shot down , and gave his life in WW1 , to jack who served heroically on PT109 in WWII , to Kathleen Kennedy Towsend who serves as Lt Gov of Maryland.. and Bobby who served as AG and gave his life in service to America, as Did Jack.. and to all the Congressman and senators, and public servants the family has produced. I'm quite proud of the Kennedy Family. And quite Proud of Massachusetts.

I'll tell you this, we're about a 10th the size of Texas, yet make 10 times the impact on our country and the world. Boston itself, with Fidelity and others control near 10% of every trade done on the NYSE and NASDAQ. People come from all over the world for our schools. The best and brightest are here. Our Hospitals are world class and unparrell'd. Our population is among the most educated, healthiest, spiritual and family based societies in the History of mankind.

If you don't want to raise kids here... thats your choice. But thats not factually based.

Cut the lecture crap Suff, you're not nearly as superior as you think you are. I wouldn't raise my children in Massachuttes if I made three times the money I do now.

Me? Me personally? Superior? LMAO. I'm an idiot. I drink to much, I use drugs, I chase women (unsuccessfully) I gamble to much (also unsuccesfully) , I swear profusely. I'm selfish, grandiose, idealogical, stubborn, prideful ...and those are my good points,

I'm superior to nothing or no one. I was just posting some facts. :eek:

lsbets

03-25-2005, 01:29 PM

"The best and brightest are hear."

Note the spelling on here. Yeah, you proved your point. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Suff

03-25-2005, 01:31 PM

Suff, you are the one living the myth. As I posted earlier, NO states are filled wtih red or blue people. NY is a blue state, but in my area, is very red. As sare other areas. There is zero correation between your stats and people - just fun with numbers.

oh no thomas.. The #'s are very real.

And please.. Tom.. Picture them reversed? Imagine if The Repugs had these stats in thier favor?

OH MY GOD! would we be hearing it.. Box Car would be having a Seizure trying to tell us how they pay for our socialism...LMAO>. Poor Boxie. I pay his Bills and it kills him.

Suff

03-25-2005, 01:35 PM

"The best and brightest are hear."

Note the spelling on here. Yeah, you proved your point. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Huh? what are you talking about? LOL.. Gotta wait to finish editing!!

Hey.,, You have an easy target with me.. so your not gonna get any points for pointing out my faults,

I just put up the numbers.. The facts. You want to argue the numbers...go right ahead..

Your wasting your time with me. I've been doing this 30 years. I love it.

lsbets

03-25-2005, 01:37 PM

lsbets

03-25-2005, 01:38 PM

Damn Suff, I caught you before the edit - this thread is living in real time. :)

Suff

03-25-2005, 01:43 PM

Suff - Joe Sr - you mean the Nazi supporter? When you mentioned Jack, you left our his incredible devotion to his wife. I noticed you left out the family connections to organized crime. Where did their money come from? Oh yeah, you left the family's wonderful driving skills.

I don't find homosecuality a threat to anything, but I do define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Redefining that to make people feel better about themselves weakens the family and is wrong.

10 times the impact on the country? I would beg to differ Suff. Mass couldn't survive without the other 49, Texas would be a prosperous nation on its own. I think your drinking and drugs might have made you slightly delusional. ;)

Ok.. Forget the Kennedys.. I'll agree with you. They suck..

I also define christian Unity as between a Man and Woman. But I define A civil marriage as a Union between two people.

I posted the Numbers... You have an issue with them? Or are you angry with me that I posted them? That they blow many myths out of the water?

You know I'm having fun with this? If I worried too much about what people thought about me.. You think I would type 1/2 the stuff I do?

You gotta meet me to understand the whole thing... Are you coming up to Saratoga this year? You said you might? I hope you do..

Hey I have an ALL STAR LINEUP lined up.. My Headliner is CJ! Coming From Belgium.. he' anutha misguided conservative.. but I like him anyway..

lsbets

03-25-2005, 01:55 PM

Suff - notice the smileys - that means having fun, not angry. We've had some decent PMs, and I decided to jump in and have some fun.

I should be packing. I have a customs inspection very, very soon (I can't say exactly when, its a national security issue ;) ), but, as I always do when I have to pack, I procrastinate.

I might show up at Saratoga, I have to see how things go when I get home. I plan on exploring some independent business opportunities when I get home, so if it all works out, then I'll be able to travel up there. I really don't feel like working for someone else anymore. After commanding a company in combat, I don't think I have the patience to deal with a boss (other than my wife). I was working on some business opps before I was called to active duty, and my wife has been a great promoter of mine while I am away. I sent her a picture of me getting an award the other day from my Commanding General, and she e-mailed it out to about 100 people that day. I didn't come here to open doors for myself, but if they are open when I get home, I plan on walking in.

Tom

03-25-2005, 03:36 PM

oh no thomas.. The #'s are very real.

And please.. Tom.. Picture them reversed? Imagine if The Repugs had these stats in thier favor?

OH MY GOD! would we be hearing it.. Box Car would be having a Seizure trying to tell us how they pay for our socialism...LMAO>. Poor Boxie. I pay his Bills and it kills him.
that;s not the wy I meant it - I meant the numbers are irrelevant since we are all Americans and all pay to some degree no matter where we live. If conservatives used the reverse of the number, I would tell them the same thing. If NY were to have one more "red" vote the "blue, the state would change colors -so what.
Maybe that's the proble wiht our gov'nt - they are looking at states instead of people.
This is why I strongly support ditching the electoral college and let the chips fall where they may.

BTW, :) on this discussion, too. You are not on my ignore list because you are sincere, honest, and make legitimate arguments, some which have changed my mind on things in the past. I'll take a thread or two with you over countless threads with other "lemmings anyday. :ThmbUp: