Detroit fans [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

freeneasy

11-20-2004, 08:16 PM

thats for sure. i mean he had a right to be angry with his defender, but the way he attacked was vicious and certainly had the appearence of intent to harm and cause injury. the man charged forward with a pretty good head of steam and threw what looked to be something of a two handed cross chop blow to the adams apple. weather wallace knew it or not that first blow that he threw could have easily and i do mean easily caused a life long injury and without getting carried to far away from the truth here it also could have resulted in a death blow.
suspention? you bet. banned from basketball? he could have killed the man, you bet.

JustRalph

11-20-2004, 08:40 PM

Watch the news for riots here on the Ohio State Campus. After beating Michigan today they are going to go nuts.

They have done it before.........although they hammered some kids last year for rioting. A couple even got jail time.......so who knows.

kenwoodallpromos

11-20-2004, 11:50 PM

The BBaller who went into the stands is a rapper.
Some higherups are actually not just blaming the fans.
I heard my Warriors and the Clippers got in a big fight also, but no players were able to hit their target. LOL.

Valuist

11-22-2004, 12:34 AM

He's a basketball player who thinks he's a rapper. Just like Shaq and Iverson and the others. I knew Artest would get a sizable suspension but I think it was too much. There's no question he was provoked. Wallace should've gotten a much stiffer suspension. 6 games? He instigated the whole incident. But if one only saw newsclips and not the entire scenario, they are getting a biased opinion. Most of the news clips showed only one fan throwing a beer on Artest; not the chairs and bottles that got thrown at the Pacers (not too mention the shower of beer, pop and food they all got). More and more of these moronic fan incidents are coming up all the time.

Equineer

11-22-2004, 12:44 AM

Valuist,

Although Artest certainly went berzerk, I too was amazed by the edit job that ESPN did on their coverage of magnitude of fan aggression towards the players.

Valuist

11-22-2004, 12:52 AM

On Friday night, ESPN wasn't holding back. Steven Smith and Greg Anthony were ripping apart the Detroit fans and they showed the full incident. It really wasn't until Saturday that the mainstream media picked it up, showing only what they wanted to. David Stern wields a lot of power; I wouldn't be surprised if he told ESPN to calm down on ripping the fans. Hearing Smith and Anthony on Sportscenter tonight it sounded like somebody giving a coerced confession. It was 180 degrees different from Friday night.

JustRalph

11-22-2004, 09:26 AM

If you make four million dollars a year and somebody throws a cup of beer on you, do you risk the four milliion by acting like an idiot? It speaks to the lunacy of the NBA players. They are a league of thugs and miscreants. End of story. Only ten percent of them could qualify for basic jobs. Yet the NBA turns them into millionaires. Spoiled millionaires with multiple children born out of wedlock etc. They are a disgrace.

Valuist

11-22-2004, 09:55 AM

Ralph-

So if we see a millionaire its ok for us to throw beer in their face, pelt them with bottles, folding chairs, coins and whatever food we can get our hands on? How about movie stars? I didn't see Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez getting pelted after that terrible movie they made.

Tom

11-22-2004, 10:36 AM

Artell got what he deserves- a year off without pay. He wanted time off to promote his rap music, now he has time off due his "crap."
The fans who got involved deserve to be arrested and prosecuted, but the players have to be held to a higher standard-they are supposed to be professionals.

kenwoodallpromos

11-22-2004, 10:54 AM

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kenwoodallpromos

11-22-2004, 11:11 AM

This is the earliest BBall riots I could find. Sounds like the players were not involved:
(In 1923, Douglas cut a deal with the owners of Harlem's Renaissance Casino, which opened in 1922. Douglas organized a group of black basketball players and agreed to call the team the Renaissance, providing the casino with publicity. In return, the casino allowed the team to practice and play home games at the epicenter of the "renaissance" of black artistic expression in Harlem, located at 137th Street and Seventh Avenue, during the '20s. The Rens were another form of that expression in "New York's Prettiest Dance Hall" -- as advertised in the New York Amsterdam News -- between dances and big bands, that is.

"It was twofold: People came to see the team and came to dance," said John Isaacs, who played with the Rens from 1936-41 and roomed on the road with Hall of Famer Pop Gates, one of the nation's finest all-around players. "Once the game was over, people stayed. It was like, 'Let's go back to dancing.'"

Whether they were home or on the road, the Rens maintained a hectic schedule throughout the year, often playing more than 120 games.

"We played every day and twice on Sunday," said Jim Usry, a member of the Rens from 1946-51. "We played all over -- Hartford, New Haven, Springfield. We'd play a road game in the afternoon and play back in New York that night."

The Rens took on all comers, playing against semipro, black college and other professional teams, including the premier team of that era, the Original Celtics. Featuring Dutch Dehnert, Nat Holman and Joe Lapchick, the Celtics were known as extraordinary passers and showmen who revolutionized the way basketball was played.

The games featuring the Rens and Celtics were hot tickets, with some contests drawing as many as 15,000 fans. The games were hard fought and civil on the court, but off the court was a different story.

"There were race riots that took place during five of their games," said Richard Lapchick, son of Celtics center Joe Lapchick. "But the players believed that they represented a game that was something special in their lives."

Valuist

11-22-2004, 12:58 PM

It will be interesting to see what happens this Thanksgiving. The Colts play at Detroit in the early game. In smaller markets like Indy, often the players from other sports are friends. If any team is capable of embarrassing an opponent right now, its the Colts.

Equineer

11-22-2004, 01:54 PM

MTV sources are hinting that Pro-Life advocates Pat Robertson, host of the 700 Club, and Puff Daddy, founder of the Famous Breeders Association (FBA), have discussed issuing a joint condemnation of NBA Commissioner David Stern for succumbing to pressure from the Conservative Media Alliance (CMA) and other Pro-Abortion lobbies.

MTV reporters are following investigative leads claiming that CMA-hired Pro-Abortion goons instigated recent fan violence against the NBA players.

NBA players are currently the most popular celebrities in the FBA-sponsored "Rock The Bassinets" campaign featured on the official FBA web site. Of the nearly two-million Breeding Pledges submitted to date, over half of the respondents selected an NBA player as their primary Pro-Life mating choice.

Members of Puff Daddy's posse have reportedly volunteered to help the NBA beef up courtside security in order to protect players from attacks by radical Pro-Abortion extremists. Posse members especially cite concern for the safety of Cleveland Cavaliers star LeBraun James, who has been the first-choice selection in more than three-hundred thousand Breeding Pledges.

;)

Jeep

11-22-2004, 02:52 PM

Hey, what do you expect? There's no hockey this year.

JustRalph

11-22-2004, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Valuist
Ralph-

So if we see a millionaire its ok for us to throw beer in their face, pelt them with bottles, folding chairs, coins and whatever food we can get our hands on? How about movie stars? I didn't see Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez getting pelted after that terrible movie they made.

You twist my words. There are police and security officials who can deal with this kind of thing. It has happen in other stadiums etc. I never said it was ok to throw things are millionaires. I say these guys know the environment they are in and this stuff goes with the terroritory. Especially in the NBA. But you don't go into the stands.............period. If you are smart, you don't go into the stands.............that is...........

Valuist

11-22-2004, 03:05 PM

OK, I agree players shouldn't go into the stands. But fans shouldn't go onto the floor, nor should they be throwing objects at players. Fans think because they pay money they are "entitled" to be a part of the action. Thats bullshit. Hopefully those in the crowd will be identified and prosecuted.

PaceAdvantage

11-22-2004, 03:54 PM

Attention Kenwoodallpromos (what does this name mean, anyway?), and Equineer:

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That is all.

BillW

11-22-2004, 04:05 PM

The fans should be treated as the law prescribes (and to the full extent of the law).

The players, in addition to any legal issues are in an employment situation. There is absolutely no reason that an employer should tolerate that behavior. Hell, if a waitress got into an altercation with a customer, would you not expect her to be fired? What if a cop in the execution of his duty got into an altercation with a citizen - same situation. These guys have just been suspended. Seems to me that they got off easy (relative to their relationship with their employer)- in any other venue, this behavior would not be tolerated by an employer and result in a termination.

Valuist

11-22-2004, 04:50 PM

I don't think anyone is justifying their (the players) behavior. But I don't hear much outcry for the disgraceful behavior of the fans.....a trend we've seen on the rise in the past 5-10 years.

But let me guess, cause the players make a lot of money the fans are basically entitled to bring guns in and start shooting if they want. If you don't think the fans are in the wrong you may want to look in the mirror and question your own ethics. This sense of "entitlement" by the fans is getting awfully old.

BillW

11-22-2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Valuist
I don't think anyone is justifying their (the players) behavior. But I don't hear much outcry for the disgraceful behavior of the fans.....a trend we've seen on the rise in the past 5-10 years.

But let me guess, cause the players make a lot of money the fans are basically entitled to bring guns in and start shooting if they want. If you don't think the fans are in the wrong you may want to look in the mirror and question your own ethics. This sense of "entitlement" by the fans is getting awfully old.

I don't disagree, but there are two completely different issues here 1) NBA issues as an employer and a business providing a product to the public and 2)Legal issues. On Item one - see my original post. Also security is an issue that the NBA needs to address and is part of this issue. The fans being to blame for the players actions should not even enter this conversation here. Item two - the fans and players should be agressively dealt with just as in any other occurance where the law is broken. Usually there isn't an outcry over these matters under other common circumstances (assault and battery cases in public). I do expect swift action on the part of law enforcement though (and any outcry supporting the fans behavior would be totally unacceptable).

I do think it is critical to seperate this into these two issues. And BTW the sense of entitlement is not solely with the fans, this exists in general across our society and I think it's a bunch of crap. :rolleyes:

Bill

delayjf

11-22-2004, 05:32 PM

IMHO, the reason the negativity is being leveled at the players is that more and more NBA players are being precieved as gangsters and thugs. Artest has been suspended I think 7 times. He has refused to take medication that has been perscribed to him to control his behavior.

I'm not supporting what the fans did, they deserve to be prosecuted for their deeds. As a man I can understand the mentality that if you throw something in my face, it's go time. But as a citizen, being provoked does not exempt me from the law. I don't know who that man on the floor was, he had no right to be there and should be arrested for tresspassing or whatever. But he was also no threat to the Pacer player who ran over and leveled him with a running sucker punch.

My only regret was that it wasn't me, ( assuming of coarse I lived). I'd be giving Edwards a call for legal advise and scouting out the Keenland sales for Kentucky Derby candidates, buying my dream car and making plans for a new home. That punch is going to cost him much more than the 3.4 million he's going to lose while suspended.

Personally I'm sick of all the "hey look at me", in your face BS that you see from athletes after a good play. Anymore, a guy can't make a tackle without having a dance to go along with it.
My solution, simple, don't show it on TV, pan to the fans in the stands. I'd rather see some drunk guy in a dress wearing a pigs nose spill his beer on the guy next to him than Terrill Owen's dance routine after a touchdown. Remember the days when about the most an athlete would say when the camera was on them was "hi Mom"

Valuist

11-22-2004, 06:01 PM

There have been thuggish athletes for years. This is not new. But in recent years we have seen quite a few incidents involving fans that we didn't used to see. Fans years ago would never have run onto a field to attack a coach or umpire (as has happened in recent years). To many of these rich fans think they paid a lot to see the game so they're entitled to be a part of the game. Calvin Klein walked onto the court to talk to Latrell Spreewell in the middle of an NBA game. The changing behavior of the fans is what is most disturbing about this, IMO.

schweitz

11-22-2004, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Valuist
Fans years ago would never have run onto a field to attack a coach or umpire (as has happened in recent years).

The father-son tag team that attacked the first base coach never did a day of jail time---to me that is just unbelievable.
If ever an incident was crying for a message to be sent it was that one.

sq764

11-22-2004, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Hmmm...fans acting inappropriately....gee, if I didn't know any better, and I only had sq764 as a buddy, I'd think this kind of thing only happened in NY, specifically at Yankee stadium....lol

Wonder of wonders.....every city has idiotic fans....who knew?

FINALLY, you admit New York fans are idiotic :-)

sq764

11-22-2004, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Jeep
Hey, what do you expect? There's no hockey this year.

I think the NHL is realizing quickly that they aren't playing and no one cares....

kenwoodallpromos

11-22-2004, 10:24 PM

Can anyone tell me what business Artest had lieing on the scorer's table as a visiting player?

GameTheory

11-23-2004, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
Can anyone tell me what business Artest had lieing on the scorer's table as a visiting player? I find it funny that so many have said Artest was showing "restraint" by not getting into it with Wallace prior to the cup being thrown at him. (Extra funny considering Wallace could easily crush Artest and 90% of all other NBA players -- I would probably bet on Wallace in a fight with Shaq.) He was lying on that table *mocking* Wallace (who is a beloved icon in this city). He made himself such an easy target lying there, he was practically begging for something to be thrown at him. No one should have, of course, but Artest knew exactly what he was doing and was intentionally trying to incite Wallace when he fouled him with one hand (with no play on the ball) and swatted Wallace's head with his other hand, and continued to incite him up to the point of getting hit with the drink. I think he was intentionally trying to get Wallace suspended. Well, he got his wish.

As for the fans' behavior, I hope a few of them do go to jail, and I really hope that David Stern mandates that next time Indy comes to town that the game will be played in an empty arena with no fans.

Valuist

11-23-2004, 09:35 AM

As a penalty to Detroit, I think they should have to forfeit their remaining home game with Indy. If the Pacers weren't leading when the game was called, the Pistons would've forfeited that game.

GameTheory

11-23-2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Valuist
As a penalty to Detroit, I think they should have to forfeit their remaining home game with Indy. If the Pacers weren't leading when the game was called, the Pistons would've forfeited that game. That would be ok by me, but I think what would surely be widely shown images of them playing a basketball game in an empty arena (with just media people and such there) would be a more powerful message because everyone would see it. They've done that with soccer games. The point of this is punish the Detroit *fans* and the Detroit organization (who would lose tons on tickets & consessions), not neccessarily the Detroit team itself. That's what the suspensions are for.

I'm saying this as a Pistons fan myself who lives just a few minutes from the Palace.

I think people enjoy "hating" the other team too much. I'd like to see at least one team in some sport somewhere in the world go out of their way to create a atmosphere of sportsmanship in their own arena. I'd like them to get up and annouce before each game that the way we do things here is to applaud the sporting event you're here to see. We cheer for the home team, yes, but we don't boo the opponents. We applaud both teams when they are introduced. We applaud the winner of game, whoever it is. And we appreciate great plays no matter who makes them. I think if you really pushed that idea for a while you could have a city embrace it. Wouldn't that be a great atmosphere to take your kids to rather than a bunch of drunk a-holes screaming obscenities?

One of the best things I've ever seen in sports was in the 80's when the Tigers' Milt Wilcox nearly pitched a perfect game against Toronto in Toronto (he missed it by two outs). By the 6th or 7th inning when people realized it was a possibility, the home crowd starting cheering their own players being called out because they knew they were on the verge of seeing something great. I'm not sure that would happen today. (Or maybe it would happen in Toronto, but not in the U.S.)

Valuist

11-23-2004, 10:15 AM

Game Theory-

I like your idea but we both know David Stern would never do it. Stern cares about 2 things: money and the image of the NBA.

Milt Wilcox?? There's a name I hadn't heard in years. The gods of fate were in order that day. Milt Wilcox wasn't worthy of a perfect game.

BTW, do you miss the old DRC?

kingfin66

11-23-2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Valuist
Milt Wilcox?? There's a name I hadn't heard in years. The gods of fate were in order that day. Milt Wilcox wasn't worthy of a perfect game.

What about Don Larsen and Tom Browning to name a couple who aren't worthy of perfect games? Oh yeah, what about David Wells?

Valuist

11-23-2004, 10:58 AM

I can't really judge Larsen. Long before my time. David Wells has been a pretty solid pitcher over the past 15 years; certainly much better than the likes of a Wilcox. Browning was ok. Don't forget the immortal Lem Barker (not Banker). But Milt Wilcox?

kingfin66

11-23-2004, 10:59 AM

But really, if you go out there and retire 27 straight, don't you deserve it. Even mediocre pitchers can have a great day. Unfortunately, Mr. Wilcox came to pitch in Seattle after his mediocre days were over and he was just plain terrible.

Valuist

11-23-2004, 11:03 AM

If you can go out and retire 27 straight, I guess you deserve it. It has to be one of the most impressive feats in all of sports. But its just hard to associate "greatness" with the likes of a Milt Wilcox. He's the kind of pitcher that you'd watch on TV and think to yourself, "damn, I could hit that guy."

Somehow we've managed to work Ron Artest, riots, Milt Wilcox and Tom Browning all into the same thread.

GameTheory

11-23-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Valuist
Somehow we've managed to work Ron Artest, riots, Milt Wilcox and Tom Browning all into the same thread. Much less eclectic than the workings of Mr. Artest's brain...

Valuist

11-23-2004, 11:20 AM

Does he have one?

Valuist

11-23-2004, 01:56 PM

They've identified the fan who threw the beer at Artest. Its the same moron who was wearing the Wallace jersey and walked onto the court with fists clenched toward Artest. He has a longer rap sheet than Artest (no 'rap' pun intended).

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/melee23e_20041123.htm

kenwoodallpromos

11-23-2004, 01:56 PM

c. Any club personnel not seated on the bench must conduct themselves in a manner that would reflect favorably on the dignity of the game or that of the officials. Violations by any of the personnel indicated shall require a written report to the Basketball Operations Department for subsequent action.
d. The bench shall be occupied only by a league-approved head coach, a maximum of three assistant coaches, players and trainer.
_______________
Artest was in violation of NBA rules by lying on the scorrer's table.

Equineer

11-23-2004, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Valuist
They've identified the fan who threw the beer at Artest. Its the same moron who was wearing the Wallace jersey and walked onto the court with fists clenched toward Artest. He has a longer rap sheet than Artest (no 'rap' pun intended).This wingnut in an old Wallace campaign jersey just adds credence to the way MTV reported this story! :)

Valuist

11-23-2004, 03:24 PM

Ken-

Are you saying the problem with Artest wasn't going into the stands or throwing punches but him laying on the scorer's table?:confused:

The Artest issue is settled. He's done for the rest of the year and will not be getting paid. The issue with the fans hasn't been settled. If you're going to penalize Artest, penalize the morons who instigated the whole thing.

11-23-2004, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Valuist
... If you're going to penalize Artest, penalize the morons who instigated the whole thing.

That would still be Artest in my opinion, with a dash of Ben Wallace thrown in.

Artest commited a ridiculous foul in a game that was over. Wallace decided to start a fight rather than let the official's handle the game.

Of course the fans are far from blameless, but that's where it started.

Valuist

11-23-2004, 03:37 PM

Wallace should've gotten a stiffer penalty, IMO. It did not appear to be a particularly hard foul, and Wallace started getting in Artest's face and pushed him. I also think Steven Jackson should've gotten a bigger punishment than Artest. Artest was just going after who he thought threw the beer at him. Jackson looked like he just wanted an excuse to start kicking everyone's ass. Nobody said the players were without fault but if the fans aren't punished as well, it sends a bad message.

GameTheory

11-23-2004, 04:09 PM

Wallace should have gotten a lesser penalty, like one game, actually, if you go by what they usually get for those kind of things. Players getting into shoving matches is not uncommon, and really shouldn't be a big deal. Ejection and a one game suspension is common for a shove, or even an elbow to the head. It will be interesting to see if they increase the penalties for all players for this kind of stuff when a riot doesn't break out afterward. Artest is solely responsible for the fan altercation -- he could have just had the guy ejected, even arrested. He started beating up on a random guy, after all -- the guy he started hitting had his drink still in his hand...