craps test---your guess?

[formula_2002]

Using a Hoyle computer crap game I tested a betting strategy.
The object was to see how many times $1000 could be won before a $5000 bank roll was tapped out.

So far I have completed 22 events, either winning $1000 or losing $5000.

$100 Pass or $100 don’t pass betting while taking 2 times odds.

I must have rolled the dice at least 1000 times.

Any guess on how I did.

Take is about less then 1.41 %

Joe M

[sq764]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Using a Hoyle computer crap game I tested a betting strategy.
The object was to see how many times $1000 could be won before a $5000 bank roll was tapped out.

So far I have completed 22 events, either winning $1000 or losing $5000.

$100 Pass or $100 don’t pass betting while taking 2 times odds.

I must have rolled the dice at least 1000 times.

Any guess on how I did.

Take is about less then 1.41 %

Joe M

do you actually have a job?

[PaceAdvantage]

See, what the hell was the point of that reply? If you've got nothing constructive to say, best not to say anything. It will save me some disk space....

[John]

Formula,

my Brother is in to craps, was a dealer for awhile. I will be with him tomorrow. Iwll ask him.

[John]

Joe

My Brother said, 5.000 times 22 is 110.000 you lost about 70 thousand.

[Zaf]

Joe,

You should check out Win Craps, You can simulate millions of rolls really fast !!!

You can also program auto bet files to test any systems you may create. Should be light speed faster than Hoyle.

ZAFONIC

[betovernetcapper]

I'm going to ignore the odds bets because they are paid out at fair odds and wins and loses should cancel each other out.
So 1000 $100 bets with a negative expectation of 1.41 should result in a loss of something like $1410.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by John
Joe

My Brother said, 5.000 times 22 is 110.000 you lost about 70 thousand.


I
Actually I loss $5000 two times and won $1000 20 times
for a net prodit of $10,000

That was very surprising.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by betovernetcapper
I'm going to ignore the odds bets because they are paid out at fair odds and wins and loses should cancel each other out.
So 1000 $100 bets with a negative expectation of 1.41 should result in a loss of something like $1410.

You are right, that’s about what I would expect. However I made $10,000.. That is a greater deviatation then I would think normal.

[Zaf]

Joe ,

I just set up my win craps to play exactly that way. I could probably complete the 22 events you did in less than 5 minutes.

Tune in a little later for the results, Handicapping the 8th at Sam Houston at the same time :D

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by zafonic
Joe,

You should check out Win Craps, You can simulate millions of rolls really fast !!!

You can also program auto bet files to test any systems you may create. Should be light speed faster than Hoyle.

ZAFONIC

Thanks, I'm looking into it.

[sq764]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
See, what the hell was the point of that reply? If you've got nothing constructive to say, best not to say anything. It will save me some disk space....

you're right, I should have told him to go jerk off and get a life... sorry

[Zaf]

Joe,

Here it is. On Win Craps

$100 Pass Line bet
$200 Odds when point was established.



Won $1000 19 times

Lost $5000 3 times

Profit again :D

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

z, i cannot get the hyper-drive to work. what results do you get for sample e-3

thanks

Joe M

[Zaf]

not sure what you mean by sample e -3 as i am statisically challenged :confused: Could you clarify.

Did you set up an auto bet file ?

Example


When...
Next roll is a come out roll
then...
Bet $100 on Pass Line
When...
A point is established on any number
then...
Bet $200 on Pass Line Odds

When you set this up you should be able to run the Hyperdrive.

ZAFONIC

[Zaf]

In addition I am using version 4.6 , an old version. I haven't used it in a while , but when I saw your post , I thought it may be useful to you.

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Z, its a one of several sample auto bet files.
with the game board on screen, hit contol key f4.


then hit "edit" in the dialog box header,
then click on "paste from"
that will bring up several sample auto bet files.
highlight "sample-e3"

[Zaf]

JOE ,

Mine is labeled sample 3.bet, mind you I am running an older version , is this one right :


' These Auto-Bets switch back and forth between the Pass Line and Don't Pass
' The thing that determines which side will be bet is a flag called:
' "Make bets on the Don't side"
'
' 20 % of the Bankroll is bet, but only if the Bankroll is positive
' Bets are also checked for a minimum value.
' Check both "Auto-Take" and "Auto-Lay Full Odds" from the Auto-Play screen
' if you want odds played.
While . . .
Flag "Make bets on the Don't side" is True
then . . .
Go to "Don't Pass Betting"
PassLine Betting
When . . .
Pass Line has won each time
Bankroll is greater than $ 0
then . . .
Bet 20 % of Bankroll on Pass Line
When . . .
Pass Line has lost each time
Bankroll is greater than $ 0
then . . .
Bet 20 % of Bankroll on Don't Pass
When . . .
Pass Line has lost each time
then . . .
Display message: "Switching bets to the Don't side now"
Set flag "Make bets on the Don't side" to True
Do this . . .
Go to "Increase bets to a minimum value"
Don't Pass Betting
When . . .
Don't Pass has won each time
Bankroll is greater than $ 0
then . . .
Bet 20 % of Bankroll on Don't Pass
When . . .
Don't Pass has lost each time
Bankroll is greater than $ 0
then . . .
Bet 20 % of Bankroll on Pass Line
When . . .
Don't Pass has lost each time
then . . .
Display message: "Switching bets to the Do side now"
Set flag "Make bets on the Don't side" to False
Increase bets to a minimum value
While . . .
Pass Line is greater than $ 0
Pass Line is less than $ 5
then . . .
Bet $ 5 on Pass Line
Display message: "Increasing the Pass Line bet to a minimum of $5"
While . . .
Don't Pass is greater than $ 0
Don't Pass is less than $ 5
then . . .
Bet $ 5 on Don't Pass
Display message: "Increasing the Don't Pass bet to a minimum of $5"
Check that at least one bet is made
While . . .
Flag "Make bets on the Don't side" is False
Pass Line is equal to $ 0
then . . .
Bet $ 5 on Pass Line
Display message: "Making a minimum Pass Line bet"
While . . .
Flag "Make bets on the Don't side" is True
Don't Pass is equal to $ 0
then . . .
Bet $ 5 on Don't Pass
Display message: "Making a minimum Don't Pass bet"

ZAFONIC

[Zaf]

I just ran the above scenario, basically like a see-saw that goes no where.

Total rolls 10,084

Sim Hours 100 hrs.

High + $ 98.00

Low - $241.00

ZAFONIC

[Zaf]

I let it go to 30,000 rolls, 300 sim hours

and it showed a loss of $1100.

300 hours at the table , hopefully the deficit could be made up in comps :D

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by zafonic
I let it go to 30,000 rolls, 300 sim hours

and it showed a loss of $1100.

300 hours at the table , hopefully the deficit could be made up in comps :D

ZAFONIC

Z, thanks for these efforts. Can you tell what the $% loss was for the above.

Thanks
Joe M

[John]

Zafonic and JoeM

I go to Foxwood a few times a month with my Brother,I go and sit in the Horseracing room. I would love to play craps if there was a simple way like JOEM's bet the pass line. My Brother is really into it.He plays numbers and moves his money up top to get better odds and all that stuff. If you guys know a way to win at craps I would be interested.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by John
Zafonic and JoeM

I go to Foxwood a few times a month with my Brother,I go and sit in the Horseracing room. I would love to play craps if there was a simple way like JOEM's bet the pass line. My Brother is really into it.He plays numbers and moves his money up top to get better odds and all that stuff. If you guys know a way to win at craps I would be interested.

In the long run, there is no way to beat craps come/don’t come bets (or any casino game).
But betting the pass or don’t pass line is craps is perhaps the least damaging casino game (1.4 vig).
I'm looking into what the short term probability of showing a profit may be.
Kind of like walking between the rain drops.

Formulas are great but I like working with empirical data where ever possible

I think it’s fair to say, that betting about 1% of your bank roll on each come-out roll will give you a lot of play and not get too badly hurt. It appears by the method I'm looking at you may have more winning days then losing days..But oh those losing days.

Simply, bet the pass and take odds. If that wins. repeat the bet. if it looses, switch to the dont on the next come-out and lay odds.

This will allow you to capatialize on a come or dont come streak.
Keep doing this until you have reached you predetermined goal and go and have a nice dinner and go home.

set a limit on your losses. It you hit that limit walk away and come back another day.

[howardjim]

A '79 book, "Beat The Casino" by Frank Barstow had several useful approaches to promote action and minimize losses.My wife and I employed several to wile away the racebook gaps over the years.They involved raising and lowering bets and switching and tracking pass/don't decisions.Another played the numbers and don't pass simultaneously.

Tom Ainslie also wrote a useful guide titled something like "How To Bet In A Casino."

Both are survival guides promoting win stops much lower than loss stops, the best bang for your buck.

Good racing to all.

[Zaf]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Z, thanks for these efforts. Can you tell what the $% loss was for the above.

Thanks
Joe M

Total $ amount of :

Bets Decided : 44,262

Bets Won : 21,583

Bets Lost : 22,679

Net Loss : - $1096.00 , - 2.48 %

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

zafonic

That is a verying interesting program. Again, thanks for your time.

2.40 is quite a difference from th expected mean of 1.4.



Joe M

[Zaf]

Originally posted by formula_2002
zafonic

That is a verying interesting program. Again, thanks for your time.

2.40 is quite a difference from th expected mean of 1.4.



Joe M

Thats only one run I can do a few more , the program is lightning fast.

ZAFONIC

[Zaf]

Run 2

30,045 Rolls

Net Loss - $488 , - 1.11 %


Run 3

30,025 Rolls

Net Loss - $195 , - .43%



Run 4

30,013 Rolls

Net Loss - $875 , - 1.99 %


Run 5

30,014 Rolls

Net Loss - $123 , - .26%


ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Z, using "sample 3.bet" can you determine the following?

Playing $100 line bet and 2x odds.

How many times $1000 could be won before a $5000 bank roll was tapped out ?

In my Hoyle example I had 20 winning sessions of $1000 and two losing sessions of $5000.

Thanks

Joe M

[Zaf]

The autobet file for sample 3 is complex, not sure I can modify it properly to produce what you want.

ZAFONIC

[freeneasy]

when using a computer, is the programme set up ad-infinitum without any limitations to the possibility of any future result. that is is it programmed to allow boxcars to show up on say 30 straight rolls? however astromomical the limitations to that possibility is its still possible and if your game ( i have a hand held crap game) cannot be programmed to at least a certain degree of impossibility then you can beat your game all day long because of its limitations.
try this
figure out the
odds against the field bet only. 6-1
odds you get on the field bet, 1-1
odds you get when you hit the 2 or 12 when playing the field, 2-1
some places give you both the 2 and the 12 at 2-1 others only give the one or the other at 2-1 and it'll designate that on the table
what are your true odds on playing the field bet.
corralate that into the number of throws against you
count and keep track of the number of field numbers and non field numbers
when the number of throws against the field bet has been reached then the number of throws favoring the field bet should start to show.
bet
if you lose then that will further enhence the odds of the field bet being in your favor
ex. the field bet is 6-1 against
if the dies are thrown 21 times with the non field numbers showing up 18 times and the field numbers showing up 3 times then the score is tide at 18 to 3 and theres no advantage cause thats the way its supposed to be.
if after 21 throws the non field shows up 19 times and the field shows up 2 times then advantage goes to the nf numbers. its an advantage but a small one.
if after 27 throws the count is 27-2 then youve got 2 field numbers that need to come out in order to bring the odds against the field bet back into balance which would even the "score" out at 28 to 4
if the field bet continues to lose then that means theres a trend going against the balence of the dice and your betting against a trend that cant be stopped until it ends on its own
but that means when the tide changes and the trend against the field bets ends then theres going to be a whole lot of field numbers showing up and when they do you can let your wadgers ride 3,4,5,6,7 times in a row easy.
anyway its a little more complicated then that but basically its pretty simple ( if yogi didnt say that then i dont know who did)

i used to beat my hand held with it all the time so be a little bit careful with results cant be programmed to ad-infinitum:(

[formula_2002]

I'll write a dbase program for it and get back to you with the results.

Joe M

[Zaf]

As freeneasy mentioned the games where Field bet that pays double for both the 2 and 12, has no negative expectation for that particular bet. Perhaps the only bet in gambling with no vig (house edge). Could a betting system turn this in favor of the player ???

ZAFONIC

[freeneasy]

basically you can play any number on the dies using the same principles.
take #7.
its probables are 6-1
i think the payoff is 4-1
if you count 36 throws, at the end of 36 throws the "score" should
be 30 to 6, meaning the score should be all tied up, even-steven at 30 to 6.
any divation from the natural balance of that score means that whatever side is diviatating from the natural balance of the #7 showing up 6 times out of 36 rolls will have to come back into play in order to preserve the percentages and probabilities that govern the 6 ways out of the 36 possibilities that the #7 can be made from throwing two six sided dice.
lets say you throw the dice 36 times
7 shows up twice
so in the next 36 rolls the 7 should make its normal 6 showings but it, the #7, needs to show up another 4 times to "make up for" or balance out the previous 36 rolls where it failed and should have shown up, the #7, 4 times in 24 of those 36 throws.
so theres a probability here that in the next 36 rolls the 7 will show up some 10 times.
thats a fairly rich deck
and the good thing about it is that the casinos cant change the deck on you. their stuck. they cant do nothing to stop the count!
but now you got to take into consideration the 4-1 payoff on a 6-1 probability, this should be factored in as well.

[BetHorses!]

What if I told you guys I bet only on the hardway combinations and that I almost always win, you would think I am nuts and tell me the hardways are sucker bets with a big edge to the house right? What if I offered to play a game of craps with you and I will bet only the hardways 4, 6, 8, and 10 with you booking the action.

For Example I will have 5 dollars riding on all the hardways and when a hard combo comes up you pay off at casino odds. When hard 4 or 10 comes up you pay 7 to 1 which gives me $35. When hard 6 or 8 comes up you pay 9 to 1 giving me $45. Every time a 7 or a soft 4, 6, 8, or 10 is rolled you win $5. Would you play me?

If you answer YES I will travel to you if your answer is NO Why not?

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by BetHorses!

For Example I will have 5 dollars riding on all the hardways and when a hard combo comes up you pay off at casino odds. When hard 4 or 10 comes up you pay 7 to 1 which gives me $35. When hard 6 or 8 comes up you pay 9 to 1 giving me $45. Every time a 7 or a soft 4, 6, 8, or 10 is rolled you win $5. Would you play me?

If you answer YES I will travel to you if your answer is NO Why not?
Bet, every time a seven comes up you loose ($5x4)=20$ not $5.

[BetHorses!]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Bet, every time a seven comes up you loose ($5x4)=20$ not $5.

very good formula but if you can sell it where you only pay $5 when seven comes up its a great hustle. You would have a 31.8 percent edge on hard six and eight and 38.8 percent on hardway four and ten. Guaranteed money maker

[John]

Bethorses,

I don't know much about Dice, So who do you sell the seven to ?

Also can you outline your betting strategy.

Hardways is when both dice roll up the same number. I think.

[BetHorses!]

Originally posted by John
Bethorses,

I don't know much about Dice, So who do you sell the seven to ?

Also can you outline your betting strategy.

Hardways is when both dice roll up the same number. I think.

John

Its just a hustle. Casually mention to a craps player that you play only the hardway numbers and always win. He will proceed to lecture you how its a sucker bet and you can't possibly win. Tell him something like you always roll doubles then offer him to be the house and book your rolls. If he agrees to what I outlined earlier (charging you only $5 when seven comes up instead of $20) you can't lose. Don't forget to send me my cut lol

[John]

bethehorses
_____________

I get it know. Thanks for the explaination. nice scam.

I see you live in Queens. How many times have you SOLD the Brooklyn bridge.

JOHN

[joeprunes]

I play craps 2 to 3 times a week. field bets,horn bets and hard ways are not good bets to make. Yes you can make money on them if you get REALLY lucky. The saftest way to play craps is to make place bets,which is not a contract bet like the pass line. you can take them down any time you want.
After a person gets a point place a inside bet,being 5,6,8,9 on them if you get no hit in three rolls take them down if you want to play longer wait for more roll if no hit take down . If you get a hit take your money,and take down your bets. You always want to make a profit before you press. The average person will 7n out in 3.6 rolls .There is so much to this game. looking for trends ,charting the table, etc....joeprunes

[Zaf]

Hi Joe,

I had a feeling this thread would catch your interest ;)

ZAFONIC

[Suff]

Originally posted by zafonic
Hi Joe,

I had a feeling this thread would catch your interest ;)

ZAFONIC

Yea... I know. Lol. I kept thinking... Wheres Joe P , the craps wizard.

Joe, I'm going to get down to Mohegan real soon... Maybe next month. I'll give you a Call.

[formula_2002]

Here are some figures I'm using in my craps program


*loose on the pass line
Store 50.70701% to loose

*win on the pass line
Store 49.2929% to win

*loose on the don’t pass line
Store 49.2929% to loose

*win on the don’t pass line
Store 47.9293 to% win

Derived these numbers by calculating every possibility in craps, which is not as difficult as it may seem once you have the structure developed.

[formula_2002]

craps program returned these results;

straight line pass betting

bets decided 47,500

# wining session in sets of 50 decisions: 388
# loosing sessions in sets of 50 decisions : 454
# of break even sessions in sets of 50 decisions:108

probability of showing a profit vs loss in sets of 50 decisions;= 46%

probability of showing a loss in set of 50 decisions=48%


overall net loss: $634.
total bet $ 47500

1.33% loss

[Zaf]

So basically if you play the low vig bets , the casino will grind a small percentage of your bankroll.

How can we adjust our play to profit from the occasional positive swings ???

ZAFONIC

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by zafonic
So basically if you play the low vig bets , the casino will grind a small percentage of your bankroll.

How can we adjust our play to profit from the occasional positive swings ???

ZAFONIC

I'm going to see how that s-3 method of play works(alternating pass/dont pass) based on sets of various quanities.

We all know what the answer is in the long run, but we'd be interested in short term probability.

[sq764]

Originally posted by formula_2002
I'm going to see how that s-3 method of play works(alternating pass/dont pass) based on sets of various quanities.

We all know what the answer is in the long run, but we'd be interested in short term probability.

I was paging through one of James Quinn's books and he spoke of the dentist who ate lunch twice a week at the casino. He would bring $50 to play at the craps table each time. He would let it ride on the pass line for 15 passes. Some days he would lose, other days he would win thousands..

It would be interesting to see what the optimal amount of passes would be if you just blindly bet the pass line.

[joeprunes]

I find it hard to believe some on can bet 50 bucks and parlay it to thousands.
As far as win craps there is a big difference when the real person tosses the dice ,dice bouncing into chips,into walls, intermediate timming,drinks, dice tossed hard as hell or hardly at all ,corners of the dice hitting the table and bouncing all over,too many variables.
Now just this year alone I`ve been to the casino over 125 times, spending hrs. the most passes I`ve seen with one shooter is 7. The most Iever had was 5. But the way to make money is to toss numbers. Now there I held the dice for an hr. The most I seen was 1 1/2 hr and thousands was won.
Its all about tossing numbers on place bets or some like come bets which I dont play.

Zafonic when are you going back to the city? We can meet some time at the casino with some of the other guys,suff.john and a few others and go to the race brook and then the tables..
.....joe

[Lefty]

You could play a lifetime and not witness 15 passes. Most I ever saw was 11 and then one night at Horsehoe a shooter made nine, sevened out and then the next guy made nine. But usually a player can play a long time before he even sees 4 passes in a row.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Lefty
You could play a lifetime and not witness 15 passes. Most I ever saw was 11 and then one night at Horsehoe a shooter made nine, sevened out and then the next guy made nine. But usually a player can play a long time before he even sees 4 passes in a row.

$50 initial bet, 11 passes = $102,400...

not bad

[Lefty]

Yeah, but casinos got these little things they call limits. They may get hurt but the limits keeping them from getting killed.

[formula_2002]

I was very fortunate the past few months having gone to Mohegan and Borgatta a few times.

I had two of those 7 straight passes and 1 five straight pass days..

Made alot of money for myself and the boys and girls.


Great fun..But I want to give it back very slowly.

Half the fun for me at the table is going in with a fixed set rules for playing , setting up rules for leaving the table and then sticking to them.

The stuff I'm doing here will be included in my next strategy when I go back.

After getting wacked with a 15% to 25% take on horses, the 1.4% vig in craps is a wonderful thing.

[joeprunes]

You beat me to it lefty our tables have a 3000 limit.
So if you could make 5 passes that will be 1600 which is pretty damn good . But 5 passes are really tough...jp

Formula when are you going to Mohegan again?

[sq764]

Originally posted by Lefty
Yeah, but casinos got these little things they call limits. They may get hurt but the limits keeping them from getting killed.

Well, most vegas casinos have $5,000 limit and most offer double odds too.. So you could play $15,000 on the pass line..

So you would hit your $25,600 bet before you would have to take some off the table

[Pace Cap'n]

In some casinos the betting limit applies to one bet only, and in some it applies to the total amount of your action on the table.

On a pass line parlay, if you got into them pretty good there is a good chance they would waive the limit if you wanted to let it ride one more time.

In "Scarne on Dice", he states the best chance for the player is: Pass line, double odds, and one come bet with double odds. For agressive play, make two come bets with double odds.

[joeprunes]

If anyone is interested;

On come out you have 8 ways to win and 4 ways to lose.

* Once past come out your chance of winning the PL bet is .406060 (almost 41%)

* You have a 22.222 % chance of winning on the come out roll.

* The house advantage is 1.41 % ....jp

[Lefty]

formula, when you talk horses and craps, you're talking apples n oranges. Horses have a 25% or more take or do they? Just playing favs bts that, so you can get selective and get overlays. At craps, that 1.4 is a constant and no overlay possible.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Lefty
formula, when you talk horses and craps, you're talking apples n oranges. Horses have a 25% or more take or do they? Just playing favs bts that, so you can get selective and get overlays. At craps, that 1.4 is a constant and no overlay possible.
Win pool take of course ranges from about 15% to 18%, with exacta's as high as 25%.

I can get more action and get hurt a heck of a lot less with craps.

Just look at it this way. If you were able to outperfom the horse racing public by 90%, you would still be a loser. Don't even go there!!

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Lefty
formula, when you talk horses and craps, you're talking apples n oranges. Horses have a 25% or more take or do they? Just playing favs bts that, so you can get selective and get overlays. At craps, that 1.4 is a constant and no overlay possible.
Win pool take of course ranges from about 15% to 18%, with exacta's as high as 25%.

I can get more action and get hurt a heck of a lot less with craps.

Just look at it this way. If you were able to outperfom the horse racing public by 90%, you would still be a loser. Don't even go there!!

[Lefty]

form, I can get ovs on horses and thereby make profit. Craps is a minus expectency game, fun but there are no pro craps players but plenty pro horseplayers. Have fun, hit and run and enjoy.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Lefty
form, I can get ovs on horses and thereby make profit. Craps is a minus expectency game, fun but there are no pro craps players but plenty pro horseplayers. Have fun, hit and run and enjoy.

Lefty, I have given up trying to make money on the horses.
I have convinced myself that its a no win game.
I wish you continued good fortune.

[formula_2002]

A one additonal comment about horses vs craps.

I have a 200,000 horse data base of All-Ways/Bris data files that I use to develope a mirade of systems, all of which were doomed to failure . Cost of that data is about $20,000

I can generate a 200,000 random number data base in about 20 seconds at no additional cost.

I'm up $20,000 already;)
In about 1 minuet, I'll be up $60,000!!

[sq764]

Originally posted by formula_2002
Lefty, I have given up trying to make money on the horses.
I have convinced myself that its a no win game.
I wish you continued good fortune.


I am curious what specifically convinced you it was a no win game? Did you find out that you couldn't consistently turn a profit or that it's impossible for anyone to do so?

I ask because there are times when I hit a frustration level where I think either I have no clue or the game can't be beat... Other times, I go on a nice 'pace' and profit month after month..

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by joeprunes

Formula when are you going to Mohegan again?

Most likely not until May.

I'll be in Las Vegas in April.. There's a craps table at Caesars that owes me a bit of money.

If I get to Mohegan sooner, I drop you a line.

Joe M

[Zaf]

Originally posted by joeprunes


Zafonic when are you going back to the city? We can meet some time at the casino with some of the other guys,suff.john and a few others and go to the race brook and then the tables..
.....joe

Joe,

Just got back from NY , Thanksgiving with the family. Got to the Meadowlands last night but no casino.

If I am heading your way in the near future I'll give you a shout. I haven't been to Mohegan since Feburary. Love the place especially the Race Book :) .

ZAFONIC