Mullins & Mitchell heading East in another Blow at West Coast Racing. [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Suff

11-16-2004, 12:50 PM

Jeff Mullins has eyes for Florida.
By JAY PRIVMAN
INGLEWOOD, Calif. - A paucity of quality horses available to be claimed in California, the stagnant purses in this state, and the likelihood of slots-fueled purses coming soon to Florida has caused two of California's leading trainers, Mike Mitchell and Jeff Mullins, to say they will open divisions in south Florida this winter.

Mitchell said he was going to visit Florida this week and meet with Bob Umphrey, the racing secretary at Calder, and Dave Bailey, the racing secretary at Gulfstream, in hopes of acquiring stalls this winter.

The move by both trainers - who have large barns and run many horses during the course of a meet - is another blow.......

http://www.drf.com/news/article/60823.html

On a personal note I went to play the Friday Night Hollywood Card with two Friends the other Night. Thats Hollywoods BIG NITE Right? $1.00 Beers, Music and the like, Free admisison or whatever. It starts here on the East Coast at 7pm and Many guys used to like to go to SUFFOLK on Friday night and Play California and have a few Beers.

Last friday Night the card opened with a 5 horse field MDN Claimer and the 2nd race was a 10K Claiming race and ANOTHER 5 horse field. I hated to rain on thier parade but I asked them... WTF are you guys doing here?... For christsake , you can play 10 horse fields 12,500 claimers at SUFFOLK all day long... and you come down here and waste your friday night playing this crap! You gotta beat a 3/5 or 4/5 in every race. A healthy Exacta is $25.00, The doubles pay $11.00 one after another and the PIK3's pay $60.00..... I know there are exceptions..

But as I have been saying for 2+ Years.. West Coast Racing is on Life Support.
and don't even get me started on Golden Gate, Bay meadows or Turf Paradise.

WINMANWIN

11-16-2004, 02:35 PM

I agree, NO offense to the Left Coast but it ceratinly has changed
for the WORSE :( Question is, Will it Ever get better. :confused:

11-16-2004, 02:44 PM

I couldn't believe when I saw an allowance race with a purse of $39k the other day. This has to be the low point for many a year.

I remember as a teenager going to Laurel and betting features where the Allowance purse was around 10 grand. I'd then see SoCal PPs and be amazed at how high the purses were.

Now, they are just another track. I have no idea with the prices it costs to keep horses in training why anyone would race there.

delayjf

11-16-2004, 02:52 PM

I'd have to agree, about the only thing I can think that keeps owners around is they live in So Cal. Lots of money out here.

I'm wondering if the Mullins / Mitchell move might be motivated by a crack down in the backstretch.

What's the word SoCalFan?

plainolebill

11-16-2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by delayjf
I'd have to agree, about the only thing I can think that keeps owners around is they live in So Cal. Lots of money out here.

I'm wondering if the Mullins / Mitchell move might be motivated by a crack down in the backstretch.

What's the word SoCalFan?

I don't think that's out of the question, Santa Anita began testing for 'milk shakes' during the Oak Tree meet and Hol has continued it as well. Their (Mullins & Mitchell) reasoning seems like eyewash - it doesn't matter how good the horses are as long as you're better than the competition. Things should be better for Socal trainers nowadays : worker's comp rates have come down, the purses are still decent (higher than GP) and with small fields they should take down a lot of purses. I'd actually be glad to see some of these guys leave Socal, it might encourage other trainers to bring in more stock.

JustRalph

11-16-2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by plainolebill
I'd actually be glad to see some of these guys leave Socal, it might encourage other trainers to bring in more stock.

I like the fact that mullins is leaving..........but you are not going to see any other trainers coming to SoCal with the cost of living (workers comp, lower purses etc) the way it is. If they don't do something fast..........they are done.

The Hollywood meet is a shell of what it used to be. I used to love staying up for those Friday night cards.........just 3 years ago they were 100% better than they are now. The states that have slots may be the only ones left in five years.........some of those predictions we read about a few years back are starting to come true.

plainolebill

11-17-2004, 12:24 AM

I'm afraid you may be right JR.

delayjf

11-17-2004, 02:16 PM

With all the problems with So Cal racing mentioned here, how is it that they still pull in such huge daily handles??? Pick Six pools here are second to none. I've neither heard or read anywhere that the out of state handle has significantly dropped. Given the decline in the quality of racing, I can't help but wonder why it hasn't dropped.

ceejay

11-17-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by delayjf
With all the problems with So Cal racing mentioned here, how is it that they still pull in such huge daily handles??? Pick Six pools here are second to none. I've neither heard or read anywhere that the out of state handle has significantly dropped. Given the decline in the quality of racing, I can't help but wonder why it hasn't dropped.

Actually, Brad Free reported, "Hollywood pick six losing ground" in http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=60725 (subscribers only).

Six days into the meet, there was not a single carryover, and total pick six handle has plummeted some 38 percent compared with the first six days of the 2003 fall meet.

RXB

11-17-2004, 04:44 PM

Friday night at Hollywood, as with Bay Meadows, was never the big card in terms of quality or quantity of horses. At BM, it was pretty much without fail the worst card of the week.

Also, the purses at Oak Tree and the Hol fall meet are always noticeably lower than the SA winter and Hol spring meets (and of course, much lower than the Del Mar purses).

The problems at Turf Paradise are due in no small part to the slots slush fund at Sunland Park. I still think that while slots may provide a short-term cash infusion to the tracks that install them, in the longer run they will prove to be detrimental. And already, they are having the negative impact of turning viable neighbouring slots-free tracks into backwaters.

The_Knight_Sky

11-22-2004, 06:50 PM

Now why would Mr. Mullins and Mr. Mitchell race in Florida
for smaller purses at Gulfstream (as opposed to Santa Anita) ?

hmm? http://www.hoc-board.de/phpBB2/smilies/nerv/gruebel.gif

so.cal.fan

11-22-2004, 10:41 PM

The racing industry/officials/et all have quietly, but effectively cracked down on cheaters.
The exodus of the "super trainers" is welcomed by most of us here.
More smaller stables, owners and trainers will pick up the slack and we will have better racing.
Haven't any of you noticed the fields are slowly getting better at Hollywood Park? We have lots more carryovers than usual.....
You will not read this in the DRF but they have cracked down.
It's about time!

Zaf

11-22-2004, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by The_Knight_Sky
Now why would Mr. Mullins and Mr. Mitchell race in Florida
for smaller purses at Gulfstream (as opposed to Santa Anita) ?

hmm? http://www.hoc-board.de/phpBB2/smilies/nerv/gruebel.gif

Mitchell is hoping that slots will boost South Florida's purse structure. He was a guest on the Roger Stein Show on Sunday.

You can hear the archived show & interview at:

www.rogerstein.com

ZAFONIC

PaceAdvantage

11-23-2004, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by so.cal.fan
You will not read this in the DRF but they have cracked down.

Call me Mr. Naive, but why won't I read about this in the DRF? Beyer is the champion of this sort of thing, shouldn't he be writing about this?

ElKabong

11-23-2004, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by so.cal.fan
The racing industry/officials/et all have quietly, but effectively cracked down on cheaters.
The exodus of the "super trainers" is welcomed by most of us here.
More smaller stables, owners and trainers will pick up the slack and we will have better racing.
Haven't any of you noticed the fields are slowly getting better at Hollywood Park? We have lots more carryovers than usual.....
You will not read this in the DRF but they have cracked down.
It's about time!

...and it's helped their product, if ya ask me. The races are still very betable and competitive.

I have to believe you're right, SCF, the fields willl eventually get bigger. The cards are far, far better for HOL this year than last, imho.

Also, in Mitchell's interview, he did say that he's going to keep his best people in Calif and just start a new stable in Fla. No big loss for Cal racing if he still has a stable running out west (same for Wesley Ward who ran at GP last yr also).....I'll sure be watching to see how MM does at the claimbox out there in Fla ;). Who knows, maybe they'll run him off from so FLA like they did Mike Gill.

PA,

Just another imo..., Beyer didn't write too much on west coast racing as I recall. I haven't read him much the past 2-3 yrs, so if he suddenly expressed interest out there, my apologies.

Suff

11-23-2004, 05:05 AM

I'm not sure why some people want to insist that California is offering a good racing Product.

"I don't know where California is going," Mitchell said at Hollywood Park on Sunday. "No one seems to want to help the business. It's a tough place to live right now. The slot machines passing in Florida is what kicked it off for me. I've always wanted to claim in Florida. You can't find horses here anymore. There are small fields and bad horses. You're just claiming someone else's problem. It used to be there were two or three horses in every race that you could choose from. Now, there's maybe one that stands out, and everyone shakes for it. My owners want to buy, but we can't find anything.

so.cal.fan

11-23-2004, 10:47 AM

We don't have that bad a product, Suff......
Not saying it's good, but let's just say it is so....so......
If you are selective, you can still find a few good betting races.

PA
If you go to Roger Stein's website, archived shows, you will find one is missing....Nov. 20th.
Pulled, immediately..........reason.....he had a top So. Cal. vet who told you basically what I told you, but he was far more specific.
This information was, is and will be kept QUIET. Beyer or anyone else will not have access to it.
Only people who heard that Sat. morning 7:00 am radio show-live heard the true scoop......and you won't hear it again.
I wrote an email to Stein, requesting he put up the archive....never got a reply. Everyone I know listened to the show the following day, Sun. NOTHING was mentioned of the interview.
I didn't hear the show, live....but got several phone calls from Calif. horsemen who did hear it.....and were both shocked and pleased it was aired.
I can only guess what kind of pressure was put on Roger Stein to pull this recorded show.
Some friends of mine had been talking about this very subject last week before the show aired.......
El Kabong had sent me an email......asking what was going on at Hollywood Park.....he is shrewd player who noticed immediately something had "happened"............this was several days before the show aired......
Again, we can only hope this continues to be the policy in So. Cal. and hope it spreads elsewhere.

Note:
The reason most of us believe this is being done "undercover" is for legal reasons. The lawsuits that would come up, if the whole truth was disclosed would be the death of Calif. racing and perhaps even in other areas as well.
Ky. is another state that keeps this stuff quiet.
When the product (racing) starts to suffer......they take care of the problem internally.......they have ALWAYS done this in Calif.
Problem, we had certain people in high positions that just were oblivious or didn't care.........that has apparently ended.

DJofSD

11-23-2004, 11:25 AM

I don't necessarily agree that what's good for Mitchel and Mullins is good for the betting patron. To me it looks like they don't want to be big fish in a small pond.

RE P-6 deline. It would be interesting to see how the total handle for serial bets have changed with the P-4 now a part of the mix. Has the money shifted from the P-6 to the P-4?

DJofSD

so.cal.fan

11-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Interesting point, DJ
I would be interested in a stat on that, as well.
Anybody?

Dancer's Image

11-23-2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by so.cal.fan
The racing industry/officials/et all have quietly, but effectively cracked down on cheaters.
The exodus of the "super trainers" is welcomed by most of us here.
More smaller stables, owners and trainers will pick up the slack and we will have better racing.
Haven't any of you noticed the fields are slowly getting better at Hollywood Park? We have lots more carryovers than usual.....
You will not read this in the DRF but they have cracked down.
It's about time!

so.cal.fan,
This is all you have told us; but in your last post you implied that you told us more...

If you go to Roger Stein's website, archived shows, you will find one is missing....Nov. 20th.
Pulled, immediately..........reason.....he had a top So. Cal. vet who told you basically what I told you, but he was far more specific.
This information was, is and will be kept QUIET. Beyer or anyone else will not have access to it.

...Is there more that you can tell us from the Roger Stein show interview of the top So. Cal. vet? thanx

so.cal.fan

11-23-2004, 01:18 PM

DI

I sent you a private email.
I didn't hear the show, only was told about it......so of course, I am not at liberty to comment on a public forum.

ElKabong

11-23-2004, 04:15 PM

I hope the SA meet doesn't continue with the pick 5 bet they had for the Oak Tree meet. I'd hate to see the pick 4 pools get cannibalized.

Nowdays if a Mullins horse looks less than stellar, he runs the part (and, at short odds). Can't say the same for last season. HAS to be a reason for that :). Whatever they've done out there, it's worked in favor of the betting public.

Suff,

NYRA has a good pruduct most days. I'm glad you like it.

delayjf

11-23-2004, 05:11 PM

Taking a quick look at Hollywood Parks pools. Every day the Pick-six pool exceeded 115,000.00 The smallest Pick 4 pool was about 250,000.00 I took a look at the Saratoga P-6 pools and saw several non carry over days with pools less than 100,000

My point is that despite the short fields, the nation still likes betting So California tracks.

Also I noticed an on track drop in attendance and handle for Friday nights, so what's the point of racing at night??

plainolebill

11-23-2004, 05:52 PM

If we're happy then the average trainer must be ecstatic.

Originally posted by ElKabong
I hope the SA meet doesn't continue with the pick 5 bet they had for the Oak Tree meet. I'd hate to see the pick 4 pools get cannibalized.

Nowdays if a Mullins horse looks less than stellar, he runs the part (and, at short odds). Can't say the same for last season. HAS to be a reason for that :). Whatever they've done out there, it's worked in favor of the betting public.

Suff,

NYRA has a good pruduct most days. I'm glad you like it.

Suff

11-23-2004, 06:28 PM

Sure, I'm a Big NYRA Fan.. But I'm not discussing the state of California racing just to be negative about the "other coast". I used to love California Racing. It was Primo. I fell out of favor with it. I don't like it anymore. I play mainly the NYRA circuit, and then, The Kentucky Circuit(churchill (less)and keeneland (more)) and the last 2-3 years or so I've taken up Arkansas, and I play Florida (Gulfstream). I dabble in Maryland. Thats where I go with my action. This year I plan on Playing Tampa Bay downs more. Tampa has done alot with thier racing product and I want to show my support.

I think Purse reductions , short fields and higher takeout are bad for me. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my common sense feeling on it. Despite high handle or consistent handle, I worry about other things.

Take these Maiden Claiming races at Hollywood. 32K Claim price, 16K Purse. These are really not claiming races.. They are glorified maiden allowance races. When a owner/trainer is running for a 60% $9600 purse, There is very little chance someone wil step up and grab a horse for 32 grand. Because these type of runners can be bought privately on the backside from anywhere from 7500 dollars to 11 grand. Its done all day. Owner/trainers know they will never see the winners circle in these races unless they catch a weak field. This stock is loaded with problems. From Bowed tendons, to bucked shins, to bone chips. Many have confirmation errors that need work, many have respitory issues that need work. You can work on these problems various ways, by putting a horses front legs in a bucket of ice for an hour a day, or get them Veternarian services , including surgery that is cost prohibitive. Its difficult, if not impossible to properly train this level of stock when the purse structure will not support the costs. IMHO... Many thoroughbreds at all levels , suffer from these ailments. But the short fields take value away from the risk to me. I can't play a Turf Starter with bowed tendons at 9-2. But I may use him 2nd at 28-1 in a weak field. I'm mainly a WP bettor. I play Middlers and up generally. I like 7-1 and up. I adore 10-1 and up, on stock I like, because I can make money at 5-1 in the middle.. And I can put my share of $20.00 horses in the 2nd hole.

When I look at a product that Hollywood is offering.. a 5 or 6 horse field with one horse over 8-1, I'm in trouble. Because , even when I handicap that $18.00 horse into the 2nd hole, I'm not going to get 5-1 in the middle. More often than not, a 1st or 2nd fav wins and I'm crunched in the middle. That puts me in a spot where I really have to play exactas at California....and they raised that takeout recently didn't they? The whole thing unexcites me on CA racing.

I'm pretty passionate about Thorurghbreds and if someone enjoys California racing, (as the #'s indicate they do)... I'm all for it. Its just not my cup off tee any longer. But I would like to see it improve. By all means.

Comparing handle with NYRA is a bit skewed. I mean , Saratoga handles 15 Million a day on weekends. And currently holds the record for consecutive days with handle over 10 Million. 76 racing days and counting. But not only that... I can get in my car in the Morning and just about make post time at Suffolk, NYRA, Monmouth, Meadowlands, Philly Park, Penn National, Delaware, Pimilco etc.. etc.... . NYRA has much more local competition. And I'd venture to wager if you took all East Coast handle from Kentucky up the Coast.. It would dwarf the same geographic area that SoCal racing monopolizes. But thats not important to me anyway.

We have debated what Jockey colony was Tougher before.. California or NY. But lets take Tampa as another example. Tampa has a Jockey colony of 130 riders. 130! and 80 of them can ride. And I mean.. Good , talented riders. When you ask a Califonia Jockey about thier mounts.. You ask..."What races are you going in"? But when you ask a Jockey at Tampa the same question.. Its Phrased "Which Race are you in"?. The competition for mounts is fierce. Seriously fierce.
Ride or die. Dollar wise.
I think thats good for me.

I'm not representing the East Coast... I'm just discussing racing and the decline of SoCal is worthy of discussion to me.

Suff

11-23-2004, 06:45 PM

Heres some recent news on the direction of things in NY. These are

http://www.nytha.com/2001Newsletters/0110Newsletter/p01.htm
Opening day at Saratoga debuted the reduction, with takeout reduced from 15 percent to 14 percent on win, place and show wagering; from 20 percent to 17.5 percent on exacta, daily double and quinella wagering; and from 25 percent to 20 percent on Pick 6 non-carryover days. The remaining percentage is returned to the customer in the form of mutuel payoffs.

The key economic indicators moved in the right direction. Attendance, on-track handle, commingled handle and all-sources handle posted record totals. Attendance topped the million mark at 1,011,669 for a daily average of 28,102. On-track handle averaged $3,237,750 and an additional $224,667 on out-of-state simulcasts for a record daily total of $3,462,417. Commingled handle and all-sources handle on Saratoga races established North American records at $14.9 million and $15.6 million per day.

This Link is from just yesterday

http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13421771&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6

'Now you have purses higher in Pennsylvania than they are in New York, and costs to the owner are lower,' Hayward said. 'You aren't just going to lose horses to Philadelphia Park. You're going to lose horsemen, trainers, owners, fans and you're going to see potentially a lot of the breeding organization and industry leave this state.'
Hayward plans to combat this by raising purses at Saratoga, Belmont and Aqueduct. NYRA's contract to operate these tracks expires in 2007, which gives him roughly 21/2 years to right a ship that's been sailing in murky waters the past few years.

11-23-2004, 06:49 PM

Great posts suff!

ElKabong

11-23-2004, 07:24 PM

Suff,

Good stuff. Can't argue with too much of it, but like SCF sez, you can make some good dough at so cal racing if you're selective.

Sounds like you are turned off by so Cal's lack of betting opps (for you). That's a good reason not to bet so cal if ya feel that way. I feel the same way about certain tracks as well. If Nyra had superfectas for all their races I'd be betting their turf and maiden races.

But nyra doesn't offer me that opportunity, so I have to look elsewhere. I have other issues w/ nyra as well but it doesn't belong in this thread.

I'll be betting GP as well. Great place to bet maidens and teh track feed gives great shots of the horses......

so.cal.fan

11-23-2004, 07:44 PM

NYRA is the best place to bet horses......problem is, we like to bet live, on track and live in Sierra Madre, Calif.
Suff is so right about our racing being second rate.....but there is hope.
They are going to change leadership from the top on down and I have total confidence that our racing will improve.
It may take a season or two, but don't give up on us.
You guys were in trouble in NY back in the old Oscar Barrera days, you overcame that along with lots of nasty jockey scandals.
We have had some tough problems.......they are being addressed, I am sure of that.
If you live in NY or bet off track........you guys are lucky......
but keep your eye on our racing.....perhaps next year we can lure you all back into our pools again!
I haven't been betting since last Santa Anita meet, myself, but think I'll jump back into the pools, which should give all your good handicappers even more smiles....you can win some of so. cal. fan's money!
;)

Tom

11-23-2004, 10:04 PM

SoCalFan...very interesting that Stein would dummy up. Maybe a few hundred emails to him, all on the same subject might get som eresults. Perhaps somebody out there taped the show and would be iwlling to go public with it.
I sent Roger a few emails already, questioning his ethics for being part of a cover up of his own product. Maybe his conscience will get to him? Maybe Todd Shrupp has taped the show? LOL!

so.cal.fan

11-23-2004, 10:21 PM

LOL
Roger is in trouble now......Tom is after him!

RXB

11-24-2004, 02:02 AM

There's gotta be someone who knows someone else who actually heard the show and could fill us in on exactly what transpired.

Zaf

11-24-2004, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by RXB
There's gotta be someone who knows someone else who actually heard the show and could fill us in on exactly what transpired.

I agree , whats the big secret, it was said pubically over the air. Perhaps this is in discussion on the Del Mar message board.

ZAFONIC

PaceAdvantage

11-24-2004, 10:11 AM

If Stein pulled it, then I would also pull any posts discussing the content of this phantom show, since I wouldn't be able to verify anything being posted against the actual contents of the show...

Sorry, but I have to protect my ass as well.....

Dancer's Image

11-24-2004, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
If Stein pulled it, then I would also pull any posts discussing the content of this phantom show, since I wouldn't be able to verify anything being posted against the actual contents of the show...

Sorry, but I have to protect my ass as well.....

Protect your ass from what? You provide a discussion board; you're not responsible for verifying the content of any of the posts here. If I say I heard such and such on the Roger Stein show, then I am the only one responsible for that statement. Roger Stein does not have the right to tell me or anyone else that they can discuss what's on his show or not!

so.cal.fan

11-24-2004, 12:10 PM

It's no big secret zafonic.......he had on a guest who happens to be one of the top vets in So. Cal. The man was very candid, and made comments that Roger Stein probably felt could result in legal action, not because they weren't true, but because they are unproven and the racetracks don't want scandals.
It is my opinion, that much of the cheating in So. Cal. is going to be stopped, and that it will not be made public the means of the industry to do it.
This is not a bad thing for those of us who bet in Calif.

fouroneone

11-24-2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by delayjf
Taking a quick look at Hollywood Parks pools. Every day the Pick-six pool exceeded 115,000.00 The smallest Pick 4 pool was about 250,000.00 I took a look at the Saratoga P-6 pools and saw several non carry over days with pools less than 100,000

My point is that despite the short fields, the nation still likes betting So California tracks.

Also I noticed an on track drop in attendance and handle for Friday nights, so what's the point of racing at night??

California Tracks get run with little competition. Either with a first post at 4pm eastern or 7pm eastern, there are usually only trotters and casino tracks for competition.

On the other hand, the big markets: New York, Florida, Kentucky, and Maryland all have similar first posts, yet still pull in handle comparable to californias.

IMHO Calif. Tracks should have much higher handles then they do now.

RXB

11-24-2004, 12:15 PM

God forbid that the bettors might actually find out what's really going on.

"You don't need to know what's going on," the racing officials said. "Just keep betting. Trust us. You know you can trust us."

Dancer's Image

11-24-2004, 12:18 PM

so.cal.fan,
If Roger pulled the archived show, then he is as mistakenly paranoid as our own fearless leader (PA). He provides a radio forum and as such is not responsible for the views expressed on his program(other than his own of course!).

But your mention of this prominent vet who made the accusations on Roger's show....perhaps he received legal advice that his comments could be libelous and maybe he requested that Roger pull the show? That makes sense!

so.cal.fan

11-24-2004, 12:37 PM

DI
It does make sense and I'm pretty sure that is what happened.
Roger Stein isn't a bad guy, neither is our own PA.
Unfortunately, the legalities of this kind of thing can get sticky and neither Roger nor any of the forums need to get any grief over this.

JustRalph

11-24-2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by so.cal.fan
DI
Roger Stein isn't a bad guy,

except when he calls Todd Schrupp a child molestor on his radio show..............now that was uncalled for..........

Dave Schwartz

11-24-2004, 01:24 PM

SCF,

I'd be interested in that show as well. COuld you send me that info?

Dave

fmhealth

11-24-2004, 05:13 PM

DI, I beg to differ with you. I host a national radio talk show. Believe me when I say, if anything inflammatory is said by my guests. We ALL get drawn into the same legal quagmire.

Since my show is on "health & fitness", I literally hear from "Big Pharma" on a monthly basis. Complaining about the criticism that my guests as well as myself direct toward them. I simply offer them a national forum from which they can refute any or all indictments. NOT ONE COMPANY has ever had the "bravado" to debate me "live" on the air. All I get is a litany of threats from their legal dept. demanding that I "cease & desist".

Since I started three pharmaceutical companies when I was a young man & a productive member of society. I KNOW how much profit (usually 90%+) is involved. So they back-off and look at other venues. While the first amendment is still alive & well in America. You have to use it wisely in the litigious era in which we all live. I would venture to say that that show might have been pulled because the host decided that it represented "one windmill" he didn't want to attack.

PaceAdvantage

11-25-2004, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
Protect your ass from what? You provide a discussion board; you're not responsible for verifying the content of any of the posts here.

You're joking, right? Either that, or you are incredibly naive.

I have no way of verifying whether or not whatever was said on Stein's show was true or not. Therefore, it would be quite irresponsible for me to allow stuff I can't verify...stuff that could potentially damage the reputation and LIVELIHOOD of a trainer and could EASILY lead to a lawsuit. Why do I need that kind of headache? I don't make a dime off this place.....now I have to risk a lawsuit? No thanks.

An analogy would be if the NY Times were to print a letter to the editor claiming a certain celebrity molests children. Do you honestly think, whether true or not, the Times wouldn't get sued? And they would certainly be libel if the allegations turn out to be PROVEN FALSE.

Dancer's Image

11-25-2004, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You're joking, right? Either that, or you are incredibly naive.

I have no way of verifying whether or not whatever was said on Stein's show was true or not. Therefore, it would be quite irresponsible for me to allow stuff I can't verify...stuff that could potentially damage the reputation and LIVELIHOOD of a trainer and could EASILY lead to a lawsuit. Why do I need that kind of headache? I don't make a dime off this place.....now I have to risk a lawsuit? No thanks.

An analogy would be if the NY Times were to print a letter to the editor claiming a certain celebrity molests children. Do you honestly think, whether true or not, the Times wouldn't get sued? And they would certainly be libel if the allegations turn out to be PROVEN FALSE.

No, I'm not joking nor am I naive. Here is what you said...

If Stein pulled it, then I would also pull any posts discussing the content of this phantom show, since I wouldn't be able to verify anything being posted against the actual contents of the show...

Sorry, but I have to protect my ass as well.....

...now, it's not a question of if Stein pulled the archived show, that is a matter of fact. So why haven't you pulled all the posts in this thread discussing the content of this phantom show? And there have been about 30 posts in this thread alone; so have you verified all these posts, as you say that you must? You allow stuff to be posted here everyday that you can't verify so why all of a sudden do you now have to protect your ass? Because Roger Stein says you can't discuss what was on his show? Gimme a break, that's ridiculous! I did not hear the show so i don't know precisely what was alleged by this prominent socal vet; but if someone heard the show and came here and posted that this prominent vet said such and such, then your ass has nothing to be protected from!

PaceAdvantage

11-25-2004, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
...now, it's not a question of if Stein pulled the archived show, that is a matter of fact. So why haven't you pulled all the posts in this thread discussing the content of this phantom show?

Isn't it obvious? There has been NO discussion of any SPECIFICS from the show! Exactly my point.

And there have been about 30 posts in this thread alone; so have you verified all these posts, as you say that you must? You allow stuff to be posted here everyday that you can't verify so why all of a sudden do you now have to protect your ass?

Are you arguing for arguments sake? I am having trouble comprehending what exactly your point is here in this quote. I never said I had to verify every post. What I said was, I won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification. Why is this so difficult to UNDERSTAND?

Because Roger Stein says you can't discuss what was on his show? Gimme a break, that's ridiculous!

I've never spoken in any way shape or form to Mr. Stein, nor have I ever listened to any of his shows. Where are you getting all this from?

I did not hear the show so i don't know precisely what was alleged by this prominent socal vet; but if someone heard the show and came here and posted that this prominent vet said such and such, then your ass has nothing to be protected from!

Of course it does, ESPECIALLY if this vet happens to be telling stories that aren't true (I'm not saying that he is....hell, I don't even know who this vet is....in fact, I don't know anything much about this story, which is precisely why I stated what I have stated from the beginning).

I'll always err on the side of caution. And, bottom line, since it's my board, and therefore, my ass, I think you ought to just respect my wishes.....thanks....

Dancer's Image

11-25-2004, 02:51 AM

PA now posts...

Are you arguing for arguments sake? I am having trouble comprehending what exactly your point is here in this quote. I never said I had to verify every post. What I said was, I won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification. Why is this so difficult to UNDERSTAND?

...my point was to cut and paste exactly what you said, which was this...

If Stein pulled it, then I would also pull any posts discussing the content of this phantom show, since I wouldn't be able to verify anything being posted against the actual contents of the show...

Sorry, but I have to protect my ass as well.....

and now you're saying something else. I was responding to your original post, not what you are now saying. I still do not know what you have to protect your ass from. You run a discussion forum about thoroughbred horseracing; if someone comes here and posts that they heard on the Roger Stein show that such and such did so forth and so on, why do you have any liability? And just because this is your site, that doesn't mean you can fairly suggest what I or any other poster can say on this forum. For you to say that I or any other poster can't discuss the content of the Roger Stein show is just arrogant on your part.
Now what you are saying in this last post, ie. that you won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification, that I can understand. But if I, (or any other poster) should post here that I heard on the Roger Stein show that a prominent Socal vet made allegations against certain Socal trainers, that is different than me making those allegations myself. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

ratpack

11-25-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by The_Knight_Sky
Now why would Mr. Mullins and Mr. Mitchell race in Florida
for smaller purses at Gulfstream (as opposed to Santa Anita) ?

hmm? http://www.hoc-board.de/phpBB2/smilies/nerv/gruebel.gif

Not sure of all the reasons but one for sure is that these 2 trainers have said that every time they claim a horse their is a 5 way shake.

Seems like more of a chance to claim better horses and then ship them back to California after the meet is over.

CryingForTheHorses

11-25-2004, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by ratpack
Not sure of all the reasons but one for sure is that these 2 trainers have said that every time they claim a horse their is a 5 way shake.

Seems like more of a chance to claim better horses and then ship them back to California after the meet is over.

You hit the nail on the head,Nothing wrong with what they want to do, As long as they adhere to the Florida State rules.Horses from all over the country and lots more come out of Ocala for the winter Gulfstream meet and their will be lots of liplickers ( claims).This is a game to a lot of these big claiming outfits, Anybody hear if Mr Gill will gets stalls?..It will make for a very interesting meet

Dancer's Image

11-25-2004, 07:26 PM

McSchell,
Looks like Gill is going to Oaklawn (not that he couldn't go to GP also)...

_
Gill to stable at Oaklawn
By MARY RAMPELLINI
Michael Gill, the nation's leading owner, is sending a full barn of horses to Oaklawn Park. The Hot Springs, Ark., track is known for its active claim box and Gill is known for his aggressive claiming practices.
Gill's stable has been allotted the maximum 40 stalls, and trainer Mark Shuman is the leading candidate to oversee the outfit. Gill said he is also interviewing a couple of others for the post. Shuman is one of Gill's chief trainers and is based on a farm in Pennsylvania.
"We're welcoming [Gill] and quite a few others," Pat Pope, racing secretary at Oaklawn, said. The meet opens Jan. 21. "He'll bring quality horses, and I know everywhere he goes he seems to trade horses."
Claiming is a popular pastime at Oaklawn, where Gill has never raced on a full-time basis. Pope estimates that on average four to five horses a day are claimed during the meet.
"It's a good fit for me," said Gill. "I go [to a meet] and buy horses, sell horses, and claim horses. That's my sense of how to do this business, and [officials] assured me that's how people do business there."
Gill said aside from Oaklawn's claiming reputation, he was drawn to the track because of its rich program for 3-year-olds. He was negotiating to buy at least two proven 2-year-olds earlier this week. He also wants to bring some of his better older horses to the meet, including Forest Music and Highway Prospector.
Gill said Oaklawn was attractive for one other reason. He wants to spread out his 440-horse racing stable more in the coming year in order to be effective in his goal of setting a record for owner wins in a year. One of the tracks he branched out to this year was Lone Star Park.
Gill said he wants to break Dan Lasater's record of 494 wins by an owner in a year this year, and would like to start the process all over again in January. He had won 432 races through Thursday. Lasater set his record in 1974.
"I'm trying to get the world record for wins," said Gill. "I'm [63] away right now, and I'm averaging 10 1/2 wins a week."
Aside from Gill, other new faces expected for the meet include D. Wayne Lukas, who has asked for stalls at Oaklawn.

PaceAdvantage

11-25-2004, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
PA now posts...

Are you arguing for arguments sake? I am having trouble comprehending what exactly your point is here in this quote. I never said I had to verify every post. What I said was, I won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification. Why is this so difficult to UNDERSTAND?

...my point was to cut and paste exactly what you said, which was this...

If Stein pulled it, then I would also pull any posts discussing the content of this phantom show, since I wouldn't be able to verify anything being posted against the actual contents of the show...

Sorry, but I have to protect my ass as well.....

You are right, those are two different things, so I shall further clarify by saying this is what I meant:

I won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification.

Even if I did have access to the show (which I don't) and could verify what was SAID on the SHOW, this still doesn't prove or disprove the actual VALIDITY of what was being SAID on the show. Thus, I could still get in trouble.

If any lawyer out there wants to take up this argument, fine, but I'm done with this thread. I think you all understand my point.

If my position about this one tiny little specific matter upsets you this much, well then, I apologize, but that's the way it is....

PaceAdvantage

11-25-2004, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
And just because this is your site, that doesn't mean you can fairly suggest what I or any other poster can say on this forum. For you to say that I or any other poster can't discuss the content of the Roger Stein show is just arrogant on your part.

Oh really? I have guidelines for what can or can't be said. They are in the user agreement you "checked" when you registered for this board. In case you forgot, they are:

By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

So you see, I can certainly suggest what you or any other poster can say on this forum. And unless you are a lawyer fully briefed on libel law, I doubt you can say with 100% certainty what kind of trouble I could get into if somebody really wanted to press the issue.

ranchwest

11-26-2004, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You are right, those are two different things, so I shall further clarify by saying this is what I meant:

I won't allow ALLEGATIONS that are potentially DAMAGING to a person's reputation and CAREER to be posted without proof or verification.

Even if I did have access to the show (which I don't) and could verify what was SAID on the SHOW, this still doesn't prove or disprove the actual VALIDITY of what was being SAID on the show. Thus, I could still get in trouble.

If any lawyer out there wants to take up this argument, fine, but I'm done with this thread. I think you all understand my point.

If my position about this one tiny little specific matter upsets you this much, well then, I apologize, but that's the way it is....

I help run a board and we came to the conclusion that it is unwise to allow messages to be posted that one might have reason to suspect might be untrue or damaging in an illegal manner. When you go to court the only thing you know is that at least two attorneys are making their daily incomes off of your being there.

PaceAdvantage

11-26-2004, 10:41 AM

I've thought more about what Dancer's Image had to say, and I am beginning to see his point. What if someone came on here and described what they heard on the Stein radio show? Whether the allegations on the Stein show were true or false, would a person or this site be held liable for merely repeating what they had heard on that particular show?

My guess would be YES, but I don't know. If I'm wrong, please explain how, preferably in legal terms if you can....

Thanks.

Tom

11-26-2004, 10:51 AM

Legal terms? The only legalstuff I know starts with "You have the right to remain silent..."
But that might apply here. Whatever PA feels comfortable with is the rule. Respect him. We are all fre to go start our own webpages and not make money anytime we don't like it here.
Legal or not, it is not a good thing to spread third hand comments that could hurt someone. True or not.

Dancer's Image

11-26-2004, 10:57 AM

Thank you, PA, for trying to see my point! It just aggravated the hell outta me (although I admit to being easily annoyed) to have Roger Stein, by his act of pulling his archived show, tell us what we could or could not discuss!

I don't know Mullins or Mitchell myself, but if you go back and read through what has been posted in this thread so far, the clear implication is that they are cheaters! I don't like that; I always pull for the underdogs, hell I'm now a Scott Peterson and Ron Artest apologist; I think it would be much better to have all the facts discussed about Mitchell and Mullins rather than the innuendos and insinuations that have been allowed to stand here.

Seriously PA, I don't think you or your site can be held responsible for what some poster like myself says he heard on another radio talk show. I often listen to the Raceday Las Vegas radio show with Ralph Siraco and will sometimes post something interesting from that show. That show used to be archived, but for some reason, cost probably, it is no longer archived. So by your reasoning, you would have to pull any post discussing that show since you can't verify the content? That just doesn't seem right; likewise for the Roger Stein show; we should be allowed to discuss that show! Perhaps you could insert a standard disclaimer into any post which says that the views expressed in this post are solely the views of the poster and not this discussion board?

Happy Thanksgiving, I'm really not trying to be difficult, it's just something that comes naturally for me. LOL

ranchwest

11-26-2004, 11:43 AM

I'm not an attorney.

However, it is my understanding that statements that are false, misleading and/or libelous are not excused by being couched in the context of a quote.

The problem with a message board comes when you leave up a message that you have reason to believe is improper. Once you have reason to believe it shouldn't be on your board, you have a responsibility to remove it.

When we asked one attorney, he quoted case law regarding newspapers. We found that the problem is that newspapers cannot remove from print what they have already printed. Internet sites can.

Now, the above is what my understanding is. I could easily be wrong, but I would personally prefer not going to court.

DJofSD

11-26-2004, 11:55 AM

CryingForTheHorses

11-26-2004, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
McSchell,
Looks like Gill is going to Oaklawn (not that he couldn't go to GP also)...

_
Gill to stable at Oaklawn
By MARY RAMPELLINI
Michael Gill, the nation's leading owner, is sending a full barn of horses to Oaklawn Park. The Hot Springs, Ark., track is known for its active claim box and Gill is known for his aggressive claiming practices.
Gill's stable has been allotted the maximum 40 stalls, and trainer Mark Shuman is the leading candidate to oversee the outfit. Gill said he is also interviewing a couple of others for the post. Shuman is one of Gill's chief trainers and is based on a farm in Pennsylvania.
"We're welcoming [Gill] and quite a few others," Pat Pope, racing secretary at Oaklawn, said. The meet opens Jan. 21. "He'll bring quality horses, and I know everywhere he goes he seems to trade horses."
Claiming is a popular pastime at Oaklawn, where Gill has never raced on a full-time basis. Pope estimates that on average four to five horses a day are claimed during the meet.
"It's a good fit for me," said Gill. "I go [to a meet] and buy horses, sell horses, and claim horses. That's my sense of how to do this business, and [officials] assured me that's how people do business there."
Gill said aside from Oaklawn's claiming reputation, he was drawn to the track because of its rich program for 3-year-olds. He was negotiating to buy at least two proven 2-year-olds earlier this week. He also wants to bring some of his better older horses to the meet, including Forest Music and Highway Prospector.
Gill said Oaklawn was attractive for one other reason. He wants to spread out his 440-horse racing stable more in the coming year in order to be effective in his goal of setting a record for owner wins in a year. One of the tracks he branched out to this year was Lone Star Park.
Gill said he wants to break Dan Lasater's record of 494 wins by an owner in a year this year, and would like to start the process all over again in January. He had won 432 races through Thursday. Lasater set his record in 1974.
"I'm trying to get the world record for wins," said Gill. "I'm [63] away right now, and I'm averaging 10 1/2 wins a week."
Aside from Gill, other new faces expected for the meet include D. Wayne Lukas, who has asked for stalls at Oaklawn.

OAKLAWN PARK has seen the lite!!
THEY Welcomed Mike Gill, Great news..Did you notice..How he is at Lonestar?...Hoping him and Frank are getting ready to stomp the bashers to the ground.

Equineer

11-26-2004, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by DJofSD
If the repeat of the content of the broadcast is true and accurate you have no exposure. It's called hear-say.

If what was said on the radio broadcast is true then it is not libelous, by definition.

DJofSD For two message boards in the open-source community, an attorney who specializes in information technology law offered up his pro bono opinion that the 1996 Federal Communications Decency Act provides that suppliers of online computer services, such as Internet message boards, are NOT liable for information posted by their users.

In this respect, he approved a boilerplate disclaimer obtained from other established boards. It clearly states that posters rather than the board are responsible for message content.

In your opinion, did he steer us correctly?

PaceAdvantage

11-26-2004, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Equineer
In this respect, he approved a boilerplate disclaimer obtained from other established boards. It clearly states that posters rather than the board are responsible for message content.

In your opinion, did he steer us correctly?

But this is akin to the disclaimer on the back of your baseball or hockey arena ticket -- "We're not responsible if you get whacked in the head with a puck or ball" --

but you know damn well if someone is seriously injured, they are going to sue, and that disclaimer does NOT protect the arena from a lawsuit. This fact I know.

So, I think we may be back at square one. I think I am siding with what ranchwest just wrote. If you KNOW its improper, and you don't remove it, you're liable. There is actually a clause somewhere which states that if the board ACTIVELY edits its content (as this board does), then the board is LIABLE for EVERYTHING that is written. If they DON'T ACTIVELY edit the content, then they are NOT liable.

Clear as mud....maybe not?