Inside horse on a photo finish

[timtam]

I was at Penn National and one race finished in what appeared to be a dead heat and the outcome was the inside horse got the nod. I said to a teller a guy who was there for years told me ," that the inside horse ALWAYS has the advantage in a photo finish" I guess I didn't appear to buy that conclusion by the look on my face but he said ," if you learn one thing today at the track the inside horse ALWAYS has the advantage in a photo finish I've been here 30 years and its ALWAYS that way" ....Is this old jovial teller telling the truth or is there some validity to that????

[cj]

From what I understand, it all depends on the angle of the camera.

Of course, with the actual photo the placing judges view there is no angle, but the video you are seeing, live or replay, will be at a slight angle from one side of the finish line or the other. So, it depends on the track. At Penn, it must be inside, as I doubt this guy is wrong after 30 years. But at other tracks, it is the opposite. I know at Laurel the outside horse always does better in the photo than it appears on live video.

[DJofSD]

The teller was probably talking about the TV camera and not the photofinish camera. Very often the TV camera is not on the finish line and therefore the angle will mislead you as to which horse crossed the finish line first (actually the plane like in football).

Go back and ask him if that's what was meant.

DJofSD

[cj]

Originally posted by DJofSD
The teller was probably talking about the TV camera and not the photofinish camera. Very often the TV camera is not on the finish line and therefore the angle will mislead you as to which horse crossed the finish line first (actually the plane like in football).

Go back and ask him if that's what was meant.

DJofSD

I think that's what I said too, but maybe not as clearly.

[Dave Schwartz]

FWIW -

My old friend, Ken Klein (who some of you met at Saratoga a couple of years ago) taught me that the best way to judge a photo finish is to look at the shadow on the ground. It helps straighten out the camera angle (which is usually from just in front of the finish line and favors the inside horse).


Dave Schwartz

[sq764]

Originally posted by timtam
I was at Penn National and one race finished in what appeared to be a dead heat and the outcome was the inside horse got the nod. I said to a teller a guy who was there for years told me ," that the inside horse ALWAYS has the advantage in a photo finish" I guess I didn't appear to buy that conclusion by the look on my face but he said ," if you learn one thing today at the track the inside horse ALWAYS has the advantage in a photo finish I've been here 30 years and its ALWAYS that way" ....Is this old jovial teller telling the truth or is there some validity to that????

Watch the Meadowlands (harness and t-bred).. The outside horse has a massive advantage when it comes to photos due to the camera angle.. You are looking from a bit before the finish line at camera angle..

[JackS]

A photo finish viewed on a TV monitor will almost always go to the outside horse. This has been my experience and in a close race when my horse is the outside horse, I have an increased expectation of a win while the photo is being examined..

[Buddha]

I too have rarely seen a photo go to hte inside horse, at least at Mountaineer. Always seems to go to the outside.

[azibuck]

I was sitting in the grandstand at FL once, right at the wire, and I watched a close finish where I thought my horse lost. I was totally deflated because I was sure I'd lost and it killed my Pick 4. So I sat there for 5 minutes, disgusted. They posted the results with my horse up and and I just about jumped out of my seat.

I said out loud, "you gotta be kidding me?!" A guy a few rows behind me says to me, he says, "Have you ever gone and looked at the wire on the photos? It's like this," and he kind of put his hand at an angle.

The old crooked wire trick. I'm sure they move it too, angling it to benefit whatever horse the stewards have.

My sure-thing single lost the next leg to kill my Pick 4 anyway.

[JackS]

Buddha- I've seen races in which it appeared that the inside horse headed or nosed the outside horse yet the outside horse gets the photo. In such a race I've often stated to my buddy, "the horse was outside, don't give up yet"

[JackS]

azibuck- I don't think the wire is angled it just appears to be. Unless you placed your body in an exact line with the wire, it would appear to be angled. If it is angled, there would have to be a ligitimate reason.

[Milleruszk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by azibuck

The old crooked wire trick. I'm sure they move it too, angling it to benefit whatever horse the stewards have.

I'm as cynical as the next horsplayer but this is even too much for me to believe! LOL

[maxwell]

I don't look; it's too painful most of the time. :D

[kenwoodallpromos]

I would think the outside horse has an advantage if it appears larger due to being closer to the camera but the downward camera angle may mute that point.
Do any tracks use color photofinish cameras?

[azibuck]

I refuse to use those smiley things, emoticons? You either get me or you don't.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by maxwell
I don't look; it's too painful most of the time. :D

I don't mind losing a photo every now and then.........it's the 20-1 shot coming off the turn with a hundred bucks of my money that always seems to start playing bumber cars down the stretch........now those kill me!

[CryingForTheHorses]

At the finish line you have a mirror , The image in reverse would show the inside horse and then the outside thus showing who's nose was in front, Both images are dispayed to the stewards, If they are even in both images It is considered a dead-heat. The mirror is there to prove that there isnt an advantage or any angle discrepancy's. Now when you do have a photo finish..The image is either taken from the outside image or the mirror image, Depending on where the winner was,Either on the inside or outside.If the wnner was on the inside,The picture would be taken from the outside, If the winner was on the inside, The picture would be taken by the mirror

[Dan Montilion]

Photos?

The only photo I've been involved in lately was in a booth with a spinning seat at Sam Walton's place.

Dan Montilion

[Suff]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
A, Both images are dispayed to the stewards,

Point of information. Stewards don't Judge Finish's. Placing Judges do. Different operation. The reverse image Photo's are delivered in a Squared and Plum Photo on a FIXED screen. The Finish Line is then PULLED into the picture until it makes contact with a Horse Part. Then the head placing Judge makes a call... The other Judges (typically there are 3 in a Placing Judges Box) Then Concur. Might seem elongated or complicated but when they do 100's a year for Order of finish, superfecta and trifecta photo's... they're quite effecient. I was In the Placing Judges Box at Saratoga a couple of years ago when there was a photo. The whole operation took 20-30 seconds. When your sweating out a 5 minute photo.. Most of that is the development of the image, The electronic delivering of the image to the machine, and the Communications with the Mutuals Department. as far as any confusion in the Placing judges respomsibility, They are quite clear and simple in order to call who hit the wire first.

To the naked eye I always give the unofficial nod to the outside horse... I've won a few on that DOWNWARD bob that even caught me off gaurd once or twice.

[DJofSD]

Here's a bit of technical information concerning the photofinish and the mirror. It's all about geometry. The fundamental underpining is this: three points define a plane. The plane is the finish line or more correctly, the finish plane. We say the horse that crosses that plane with the tip of its nose, first, is the winner.

Our three points are: the actual tip of the nose, the "normal" image of the tip and the "reverse" image from the mirror.

How the photofinish camera works is another matter. Suffice to say it is called a high speed camera.

DJofSD

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Suff
Point of information. Stewards don't Judge Finish's. Placing Judges do. Different operation. The reverse image Photo's are delivered in a Squared and Plum Photo on a FIXED screen. The Finish Line is then PULLED into the picture until it makes contact with a Horse Part. Then the head placing Judge makes a call... The other Judges (typically there are 3 in a Placing Judges Box) Then Concur. Might seem elongated or complicated but when they do 100's a year for Order of finish, superfecta and trifecta photo's... they're quite effecient. I was In the Placing Judges Box at Saratoga a couple of years ago when there was a photo. The whole operation took 20-30 seconds. When your sweating out a 5 minute photo.. Most of that is the development of the image, The electronic delivering of the image to the machine, and the Communications with the Mutuals Department. as far as any confusion in the Placing judges respomsibility, They are quite clear and simple in order to call who hit the wire first.

To the naked eye I always give the unofficial nod to the outside horse... I've won a few on that DOWNWARD bob that even caught me off gaurd once or twice.

Thanks Suff..I forgot about the palcing judges

[JackS]

I once read of a scam performed by an on track shark. The shark would posisition himself at the finish line and close one eye to determine which horse won in photo finishes.
The shark always had a $100 ticket on the loser but was willing to split his losing ticket with anyone holding a winning ticket on the horse that actually won.
Any patron who was nervous enough to actually split his bet automatically lost 50% of his winnings.
According to the writer of this little story, the shark was never wrong.

[freeneasy]

i heard this once from a guy at the track he said. on more then one occasion when a big favorite is in a photo with another horse, that for whatever their own reasons will be, if the track doent want the favorite to win, or they want a big carryover for the next days pick 6, that what they will do and get away with as well, is put up what he called a "splash photo" that is they will replace the oridginal photo with a photo finish of a past race involving two horses with of coarse the same silk number as the two horses being involved in the photogragh that you are looking at now. so if the photo actually shows the favorite to win the race then the track will put up a "splash photo" of a horse with the same number as the favorite showing him getting beat out at the wire. now i know that a thing like this has probably never ever taken place;) but hey, sometimes it seems like "only the shadow knows":D

[JackS]

Free- I've heard the same story several times and doubt this could happen at any of the majors. It would probably take a conspiracy to accomplish and to get away with it.
On the other hand at Who NO's Where Downs- ,who knows? It does sound like something doable in an atmosphere of less scrutany, supervision and official policing.

[Observer]

A "splash photo" .. WOW .. do you know the trouble it would be to get a photo similar to the actual events??? Not only would you need to have the horse's numbers match .. but what about the horse's coat color?? What about silks color??? Go ahead and call me niave .. but I can't see how this would work.

Some of these posts here recently have me wondering .. is there anything in this game that people believe is not crooked???

[kenwoodallpromos]

Just the track crews. LOL.

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally posted by Observer
.. is there anything in this game that people believe is not crooked???

The Beulah Twins.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Observer
A "splash photo" .. WOW .. do you know the trouble it would be to get a photo similar to the actual events??? Not only would you need to have the horse's numbers match .. but what about the horse's coat color?? What about silks color??? Go ahead and call me niave .. but I can't see how this would work.

Some of these posts here recently have me wondering .. is there anything in this game that people believe is not crooked???

you think there's anything in this game that is crooked?

[JackS]

How many times have you heard someone around you who just lost a photo finish say "it has to be fixed, they gave it to the other horse''?

[Observer]

Originally posted by JackS
How many times have you heard someone around you who just lost a photo finish say "it has to be fixed, they gave it to the other horse''?

The impression I'm getting is that everyone thinks everything is fixed .. especially when they lose.

[Observer]

Originally posted by sq764
you think there's anything in this game that is crooked?

To be honest with you, I think this world is filled with far too many crooks .. and it's getting really depressing.

[freeneasy]

like observer said, the tracks have to much to lose on a single foul up. but i dont know sometimes it seems like you can hide an elephant in that toteboard.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
The Beulah Twins.


Nope..............they are Crooked as hell..............





In all the right places! :)