Colllusion in the Classic? Frankel & Ramsey Have a Pow-Wow

[Pace Cap'n]

A recent Bloodhorse article by Steve Haskin relates a conversation between Bobby Fankel and Ken Ramsey in which they discussed how best to use their horses, Ghostzapper and Roses in May.

The article can be found at:

bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=25182

Some selected excerpts:

_____________________________________________

"If we lay first and second and the jockeys keep them slow and don't kill each other trying for the lead, they'll finish one-two," Frankel assured Ramsey. "You know what I'm saying? If they're not stupid and they stay cool, we'll be one-two."

Earlier that morning, Ramsey and Romans had plotted their own strategy. Romans originally had considered gunning Roses and May to the lead, establishing a clear advantage while setting a stiff pace, then killing off everyone near him by taking them out of their game plan. But after the draw, that scenario changed.

"We got to sit down and plot some strategy, right?" Ramsey said to Romans as they watched Roses in May gallop.

__________________________________________

Such a discussion may give pause to some bettors who might have handicapped the race differently had they known the pace scenario was being choreographed.

Nick Kling speaks to this in his column (in the bottom half) for the Troy Record:

www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13307411&BRD=1170&PAG=461&dept_id=31001&rfi=6

Selected quotes from the article:

____________________________________________

(By a fan, not Kling) "For (Frankel and Ramsey) to plot strategy (unknown) to the racing public and insure that they both run 1-2 is in my opinion a bigger scandal than the Pick 6 fix 2 years ago. At least those races were run fairly."

Nationally-known racing expert Bennett Liebman, Coordinator of the Racing and Gaming Law Program at Albany Law School, had opinions relatively similar to Ferrara's. Liebman said, "Talking strategy with your opponents in horse racing is never a good idea and should not be considered in the best interest of horse racing." However, he added, "In this case, I would certainly absolve Ramsey of any wrongdoing. There's no indication that he instructed his rider not to win or that he instructed his rider to employ tactics that might compromise his ability to win."
"In the big picture, I would not see any significant collusion or any race manipulation (indicated by the Haskin article)," Liebman said.
Ferrara and Liebman may be correct. If that is the case, then the rules of racing should be amended to prohibit this practice. Even if there is no nefarious intent, the message sent to the betting public is that its interests do not count.

____________________________________________

All of this raised several questions in my mind.

Is it a common practice for the connections to mutually stratigize?

Would it REALLY make any difference?

Was Bobby Frankel less confident of GZ's chances than everyone else seems to have been? Or just taking every precaution?

And what would a Breeder's Cup be without at least a little controversy?

[Buckeye]

I don't like it.

It shows a lack of confidence in his horse to do it alone. I am seriously reconsidering my vote for HOY.

Might even drop him to third, Azeri second.

[TOOZ]

I'm sure this nonsense happens all the time. However, again it just gives the impression that this "sport" is nothing but an insider game. You would think that top trainers and owners would follow a code of conduct, but they are such egomaniacs, their hubris gets in their way.

Jockey's giving high fives to each other after races, talking to each other during warm ups, talking to each other during the race, all the same garbage. Since some of these terrible riders are making peanuts as a living, I can see them trying anything to get cash to survive. Just like little kids, they can't keep their mouths shut, even for a few minutes.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by TOOZ
I'm sure this nonsense happens all the time. However, again it just gives the impression that this "sport" is nothing but an insider game. You would think that top trainers and owners would follow a code of conduct, but they are such egomaniacs, their hubris gets in their way.

Jockey's giving high fives to each other after races, talking to each other during warm ups, talking to each other during the race, all the same garbage. Since some of these terrible riders are making peanuts as a living, I can see them trying anything to get cash to survive. Just like little kids, they can't keep their mouths shut, even for a few minutes.

I just love this site!!, I can see your concern about all of what each person said..I as a owner have thought the same as all oof you, This goes on all the time, even 5k races trainers chaw at each other before the race.Im sure Mr Frankel was just chirping like he loves to do, Im also sure he wouldnt even think of doing anything wrong,Hell he wanted to win as bad as the other guy.I am starting to very aware of the bettors side of the coin as all I have been is with the horses so I have that kind of info, You guys have the other (wow Am I learning ).Jockeys talking to each other before the race, I really wouldnt think they are "planning" because there are too many ears ie ponyboy ect. Do they fix races?..I myself have never saw that.The kind of statments listed in this story does make the public wonder and it does put "another" black mark on the racing industry. Whether the remarks were made to benefit the outcome of the race or whether they were made in lack of confidence of their horses, Im sure we will never know.

[sjk]

I don't see anything wrong with it.

I have always assumed that when two horses are together on a lead clear of the field one jockey is always yelling at the other to slow down do they could run 1-2. Is there something wrong with that?

[TOOZ]

Really, this is no BS. Was at the Meadowlands last night. Hoosier is simulcasted there. After one of the races, a 3500/4000 claimer, the winning and second place jockeys gave each other high fives like they were in the derby, it was so blantant, they almost knocked each other over. Why this is necessary, someone explain to me. Give me another sport where the loser congratulates the winner during the execution of a play, in this case a race. Does a baseball pitcher high five the guy who just hit a home run off of him? Does a defensive back high five a receiver who just caught a touchdown? Does a center high five an opponent who just dunked on him? If you saw such conduct, what would you think? Well, that's what I think.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by TOOZ
Really, this is no BS. Was at the Meadowlands last night. Hoosier is simulcasted there. After one of the races, a 3500/4000 claimer, the winning and second place jockeys gave each other high fives like they were in the derby, it was so blantant, they almost knocked each other over. Why this is necessary, someone explain to me. Give me another sport where the loser congratulates the winner during the execution of a play, in this case a race. Does a baseball pitcher high five the guy who just hit a home run off of him? Does a defensive back high five a receiver who just caught a touchdown? Does a center high five an opponent who just dunked on him? If you saw such conduct, what would you think? Well, that's what I think.

You are asking a question and not explaining the race...DID the 2nd place jockey whip and slash all the way to the wire?..DID the winner strangle his horse hoping that the 2nd place horse won??..Was it a heated duel?..Did the horse "just win" under a drive or did he win easily?.Whats wrong with a high 5 for a heated duel..whats wrong with a high 5 for a easy win..Just wondering..Just letting all of you know I will protect the integrity of racing and comments like this are totaly ludricrous

[TOOZ]

Racing integrity is oximoronic.

[WINMANWIN]

If anyone thinks that Jocks and trainers try 100% all the time to WIN races is NAIVE. Obviously horses are just jogging on some race days, and there jocks and connections know this. We as Cappers are suppose to digest who's prepping ETC. Advantage
JOCKS AND TRAINERS :o In therory, every jock is expected to give an honest EFFORT all the time.:eek: LOL, What a JOKE !!!!!!!
The bottom line is, at the larger scale tracks, the STIFFS, bad trips
non-trys, Dont happen AS OFTEN as THE SMALLER TRACKS DO.
lets PUT THE CARDS ON THE TABLE, I will stake my life on it, if 100% of jockeys that are POLYGRAPHED, were questioned, about TRYING AND GIVING THERE MAXIMUM EFFORT, with a minminum of 50 rides in there lifetime, EVERYONE WOULD FAIL THAT POLYGRAPH TEST :cool:

[WINMANWIN]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
You are asking a question and not explaining the race...DID the 2nd place jockey whip and slash all the way to the wire?..DID the winner strangle his horse hoping that the 2nd place horse won??..Was it a heated duel?..Did the horse "just win" under a drive or did he win easily?.Whats wrong with a high 5 for a heated duel..whats wrong with a high 5 for a easy win..Just wondering..Just letting all of you know I will protect the integrity of racing and comments like this are totaly ludricrous


Its just that when you have a husband and wife in a race, such as ROSEMARY HOLMESTER AND HER HUBBY JOSE FERRER, THAT
RACE FRQUENTLY together all the time at Calder, it makes a capper ponder sometimes..........:( Another embarrassment infront of millions watching was when Santos when a Major race some years ago, and Herbie Castillo who finished 2nd on Vison or Verse High fived him, 2 brother - in laws congratulating one another......Who cares anymore, when you have a guy like Stronach owning 14 tracks and winning almost every Big race
that his tracks RUN, its becoming like the ARABIANS in Dubai, why not run the races and have no betting. :rolleyes:

[Figman]

Lets look at the parameters.

The exacta in the Classic paid $46.60.

The winner's share of the purse was $2,080,000
The runnerup gets less than 40% of that or $800,000.

If you're not going all out for the win, how much do you have to be on the exacta to make up $1,280,000 shortfall that occurs when you are only trying for second?

[foregoforever]

Originally posted by Figman
Lets look at the parameters.

The exacta in the Classic paid $46.60.

The winner's share of the purse was $2,080,000
The runnerup gets less than 40% of that or $800,000.

If you're not going all out for the win, how much do you have to be on the exacta to make up $1,280,000 shortfall that occurs when you are only trying for second?

No one was only trying for second. The point of the alleged collusion was to slow down the pace so that the closers - Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, etc. - wouldn't be in the picture at the end. Recall what happened to MDO last year after his speed duel with Congaree.

[WINMANWIN]

T be honest, Frankel trains NOTHING TO LOSE for Ramsey. I'm sure they are somewhat friends, and told Ramsey, GHOSTZAPPER
is a super freak horse, When Frankel tells his friend, this is the best horse I ever trained, and the pp's were drawn, If I'm Ramsey
I tell Roman's and the Jock, just to stalk him, They did and the race was run the whole way Zapper 1st and MAy 2nd. Why would
Ramsey destroy his horse, and COMMITT SUICIDE fractions Zapper is committed to the lead from the 1 hole, As Frankel told him: rolleyes: Ken Ramsey LOVES TO WAGER on his horses and others, He's known to be the king of the PICK 6, HE LOVES THE ACTION ! It would not surprise me, If Ramsey pounded the exacta box of HIM AND FRANKEL STRONG.........:D Afterall, he
probably wanted to get some cash back after his 3 TO 5 SHOT KITTENS JOY came in 2nd and possibly should have been moved up, with the questionable DQ....;)

[WINMANWIN]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
I just love this site!!, I can see your concern about all of what each person said..I as a owner have thought the same as all oof you, This goes on all the time, even 5k races trainers chaw at each other before the race.Im sure Mr Frankel was just chirping like he loves to do, Im also sure he wouldnt even think of doing anything wrong,Hell he wanted to win as bad as the other guy.I am starting to very aware of the bettors side of the coin as all I have been is with the horses so I have that kind of info, You guys have the other (wow Am I learning ).Jockeys talking to each other before the race, I really wouldnt think they are "planning" because there are too many ears ie ponyboy ect. Do they fix races?..I myself have never saw that.The kind of statments listed in this story does make the public wonder and it does put "another" black mark on the racing industry. Whether the remarks were made to benefit the outcome of the race or whether they were made in lack of confidence of their horses, Im sure we will never know.

Mcschell, I am certainly not implying the sport is crooked all the time. That all races are predetermined. If one takes it some steps further, this is how it works in my mind. lets say you have an 8 horse field. Trainer knows his 3 to 5 shot is a cripple and wont hit the board, co choice at 8 to 5 is rdy to be laid up for 8 mths after todays jog. Imagine knowing this little tid bit of info possibly once every mth, I know, if I was privy to this info 1 race a mth, I can confidently say, I would be a winner every mth. They bet multiple exacta combonations, so the pools dont get so scrutnized, and obviously, they dont know for sure who's gonna finsh 2nd 3rd or even WIN some times, but they have a good idea. If 90 % of the public's money is wasted on 2 stiffs that have no shot in the EXOTICS, and the inside action, doesn't have to use them. BY GOLY, THE GAMES GETS A WHOLE LOT EASIER:eek: Lets also not forget, whenever you hangout in a room with your colleagues for hrs upon hours, and shower, sauna, play cards, shoot the bull,
etc, you have a tendency to get close to one another, and sorta become like family:o I'm not saying they are not competitive, but
at times, if it benefits many parties, why not let up somewhat and give a 80 % effort instead of really trying.........:eek:

[kenwoodallpromos]

I see a lot of "stiffded" horses; they are almost always slowed down to preserve their energy for the next race when too far behind. Sometimes given an easy race on the turf to darken form.

[Observer]

Originally posted by foregoforever
... The point of the alleged collusion was to slow down the pace so that the closers - Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, etc. - wouldn't be in the picture at the end. ...

Wouldn't the blame be on the jockeys of Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, etc. for not being aware that the pace was slowed down .. and allowing those horses to go 1-2 all the way around.

Seriously .. Azeri was in perfect position until Day eased her back from Ghostzapper (when the pace was nice and comfy) .. to me .. Castellano appeared suprised .. and seemed to do a double-take when she wasn't there anymore .. meanwhile .. Azeri was just coasting along .. it wasn't that Azeri was quitting .. it was still too early in the race.

Seems to me .. that whenever there is an anticipated speed duel in a major race .. it almost never develops .. because everyone is so afraid of what the speed is going to do .. that the speed actually ends up geting away with going easy.

[cj]

Pat Day is sure to NEVER show speed unless his horse is 3-5.

[Skanoochies]

What the hell, hockey players knock the sh*t out of each other for seven games then line up and shake hands when its over. Boxers do the same for for twelve rounds then hug each other after its over. Watch the field after an NFL game, all sorts of guys looking for someone on the other team to say hello and shake hands. Its called sportsmanship. If two jockeys start high fiving halfway down the stretch, then we have a problem. After the finish line who gives a damn.:D

[Observer]

Originally posted by cj
Pat Day is sure to NEVER show speed unless his horse is 3-5.

This is not true ..

when Wild Again won the first running of the BC Classic .. he led under Day at every call, except the first, when he was 2 heads back in third .. and he went off at a hefty 31-1.

when he rode Cat Thief to victory in the BC Classic in 1999 .. Cat Thief was right up on the pace established early with Old Trieste before taking command and going on to win by 1 1/4 lengths. And that afternoon .. Cat Thief went off at a healthy 19-1.

So the "NEVER" theory "unless his horse is 3-5" has no foundation.
;) :D ;)

[kgonzales]

Originally posted by Observer
This is not true ..

when Wild Again won the first running of the BC Classic .. he led under Day at every call, except the first, when he was 2 heads back in third .. and he went off at a hefty 31-1.

when he rode Cat Thief to victory in the BC Classic in 1999 .. Cat Thief was right up on the pace established early with Old Trieste before taking command and going on to win by 1 1/4 lengths. And that afternoon .. Cat Thief went off at a healthy 19-1.

So the "NEVER" theory "unless his horse is 3-5" has no foundation.
;) :D ;)

Don't forget Commendable in the 2000 Belmont.

[JustRalph]

kgonzales

who is in the pic in your avatar?

[azibuck]

There's 3 examples right there. I'm sure there's at least 3 more no one's thought of. So let's see, times Day showed speed on a < 3-5, 3. Times he didn't, ... , um, where's my calculator? No, not my wager calculator.

Seriously, I love it when someone says "never" or "always" and people take it literally. The exceptions prove the rule.

[Observer]

Originally posted by kgonzales
Don't forget Commendable in the 2000 Belmont.

True .. and he was a nice price also .. and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples .. I thought the BC Classic examples were best, since this is the race on this topic.

:D

Oh, and for the record, I take everything literally!
:p :D :p

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by JustRalph
kgonzales

who is in the pic in your avatar?

Looks like either Lee Harvey Oswald, or Woody Guthrie.

[RXB]

Oswald, yeah. He was trying to seed an appreciation of leftist American folk music into the poor peasant masses of the Soviet Union. This was a pic of him from his greatest concert success during his time in the USSR, "Bolsheviki Moskva."

"The gambling comrade is rich, and the working comrade is poor, and I nyet got no home in this world anymore."