Beyer: Pletcher is a ------

[linrom1]

Cup Day true test of trainers, too
By ANDREW BEYER
GRAND PRAIRIE, Texas - In an era when horse racing appears to be plagued by illegal drug use, when trainers regularly accomplish feats that defy logic, when bettors routinely factor "juice" into their handicapping, one event in the sport remains free of scandal and suspicion.

Before the 21st Breeders' Cup World Thoroughbred Championships are run at Lone Star Park Saturday, trainers, horses, and veterinarians will be subjected to scrutiny without parallel in America racing. The Breeders' Cup organization has the resources (and the will) to do what individual racetracks cannot.

And yet, ironically, the integrity of the event produces even more cynicism among America's already cynical racing fans. When miracle-working trainers send top horses to the Breeders' Cup, and those horses run poorly, fans wonder about the legitimacy of their feats on the other 364 days of the year was tainted.

Of course, every racing jurisdiction tests horses for illegal drugs, but cheaters always manage to stay a few steps ahead of the chemists. So the most effective way to deter cheating is through close surveillance.

The Breeders' Cup's security program grew out of its efforts to address a different problem. In the early 1990's, its races were tarnished by conspicuous breakdowns of horses - notably the horrific death of the celebrated filly Go for Wand. Starting in 1993, the organization assembled a team of veterinarians from major racing jurisdictions to inspect all the horses as they trained. These vets, savvy about the realities of the modern game, began consulting with stewards, racing commissioners and security officials at the tracks that host the event, and a system evolved.

A week before the Breeders' Cup, security personnel are on duty at the barns housing the horses. And they know what they're doing. "The individuals in charge of security are well informed," said Pam Blatz-Murff, senior vice president of operations for the Breeders' Cup. "They're not just hired by a security firm. They're horse-conscious."

In the 24 hours before post time, the security guards monitor the movement of anyone who goes into the stall of any horse entered on the card - the supporting races as well as the championship events. When a vet enters a stall, he has to register and he is observed while he is with a horse. If he administers an injection, the security personnel have authority - granted by the racing commission - to confiscate the syringe so the contents can be tested.

There was one loophole in this system, and in 1999 it made headlines. James Bond, who trained Behrens, the favorite in the Classic, and Val's Prince, the top American contender in the Turf, declared that he would not stable his horses at Gulfstream Park. He would van the horses from a training center 100 miles north of the track so that they would arrive shortly before their races. A rival trainer, Michael Dickinson, was so suspicious of the motive behind this plan that he hired a private investigator to follow the van carrying the horses.

When the story broke, with a track press release saying the purpose of the surveillance was to "observe any improper prerace administrations," many people thought the idiosyncratic Dickinson had lost his mind. But after both the Bond horses ran dismally, suspicious minds wondered if the surveillance had something to do with it. And the Breeders' Cup subsequently adopted a rule requiring every horse to be on the grounds the day before the race.

Certainly, racetrack people are a little paranoid about drugs. As Bond observed in the aftermath of the Behrens flap, "Any time you do good, people say, 'He's using something.' "

But it is hard to suppress suspicions when trainers enjoy extraordinary success throughout the year but flop in the Breeders' Cup. And it happens that the nation's two leading trainers of stakes horses have dismal Breeders' Cup records.

Todd Pletcher's powerful stable dominates almost every major track in the East, yet his career record in the Breeders' Cup is 0 for 12. However, most of his entrants didn't figure strongly - until this year, when he will saddle at least three solid contenders. So maybe his winless record will prove to be a short-lived aberration.

Bobby Frankel has compiled one of the most extraordinary records in the history of his profession. During the last five years he has won with more than 25 percent of his starters, and dramatically improved most of the horses he has acquired. But in the Breeders' Cup his career record is 2 for 57. Last year he saddled eight horses, four of them favorites, and they all lost. Sightseek, who looked unbeatable in the Distaff, finished out of the money at 3-5. Peace Rules, a paragon of consistency, finished 13th and last in the Mile.

Chronic failure in the Breeders' Cup casts a shadow over a trainer's other accomplishments. Maybe that is unfair - like denigrating a great ballplayer because of a sub-par World Series - but the Breeders' Cup has become a uniquely definitive test of both horses and trainers. A trainer can earn plenty of money and fame during the rest of the year, but at the Breeders' Cup he can prove his legitimacy to a cynical world.

[JustRalph]

Whoa.......Andy! I guess somebody had to say it........again....and out loud this time..............

[Niko]

Let's get a few of the other big boys to start sounding off!!
Jerry Brown at Thorograph is. An idea over there is to keep track of who's the vet for what trainer. Probably a great hidden handicapping angle.
Too bad the cloud hangs over the game. Takes it away from the really good trainers.
What's the penalty if a vet gets caught? I think they should have their license suspended permantly or at least for a few years.

[the little guy]

That's why Beyer's the man. He has unquestionable integrity and is never afraid to speak his mind. He is beholdant to nobody.

[azibuck]

I haven't seen this since karlskorner not only saw the battery in Santos's hand, but described it in detail.

Where... what... how the...? Can someone beat me over the head with how Beyer is calling Pletcher a crook?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm with azibuck on this one.

You guys are loopy if you get from this article that he's calling Pletcher a crook. On the contrary, he gives the man many outs, including that fact that he's ONLY RACED 12 horses in the BC to date, and MOST of them were NOT strong horses going in.

Another BS inflamatory headline. I'm tempted to edit the title of this thread it's making me so damn angry.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, I did actually edit the title of this thread, but I thought better of it, and put it back the way it was. I strongly disagree with the title of this thread, and I would suspect Mr. Beyer would as well.

[JustRalph]

I like the context in which Beyer presented this information. He did cover both sides of the story (gave them an out) but I think the implication was pretty much apparent. I think he is only saying what a bunch of cappers have been saying for a long time.

I do also agree that the title of the thread is a little inflammatory.....but I sure did jump in and read it when I saw it.

[First_Place]

"Bobby Frankel has compiled one of the most extraordinary records in the history of his profession. During the last five years he has won with more than 25 percent of his starters, and dramatically improved most of the horses he has acquired. But in the Breeders' Cup his career record is 2 for 57."

I'm not surprised. Shame-shame, Bobby.

FP

[WJ47]

I'm planning on betting several Frankel horses tomorrow, against my better judgement. I lost alot of money on Frankel's solid looking horses last year. If great horses like Ghostzapper, Midas Eyes, and Cajun Beat perform exceptionally poorly at this Breeder's Cup, I'm really going to get suspicious! I keep thinking back to the losing streak that Frankel had last year and the rumors that there was some sort of security at his barn.

As far as Pletcher goes, he has some excellent chances to win tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how his horses run, but Pletcher seems pretty straight laced to me. I think that he probably wins alot of races because he gets so many good horses.

[Macdiarmadillo]

Bad examples used against Frankel, IMO. Sightseek was 0-fer at Santa Anita before the BC. After, too. Sour grapes from Andy? Many thought Peace Rules was done by the time the BC came around; they were proved right, and seems to be a thing with Frankel where the stable has fired all its guns before October/November, exactly when the BC happens.

Midas Eyes in that bad post? Cajun Beat running a step slower this year vs. last? I don't see them winning because of those factors. Just my opinion.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"Because of the weather or the way the racing surface is maintained, the inherant speed of a track can change day-to-day."
Beyers fails to remember that last years' SA BC occurred on a hot, smoggy day on a very screwed up track. I biought the above book for its chapter on track bias.
Last year I predicted longshots to do well because of the track and I was correct.
Beyers is already setting up his excuses becauser this year there has been a noticeable slow rail last week and this week.

[Niko]

I agree Mac, there are a LOT of Frankel horses I bet against because of peaking too early or other factors in the cup but,
How come these guys don't win when tracks put security outside of their barns. Ask Joe Takach about this one, he got banned from Santa Anita for a short while just a couple of months ago for speaking his mind. Mullins has security for 3 weeks and doesn't win a thing (coincidence?). Takach is much more knowledgable on the security issues, times and dates etc so I can't give you those. Just know have a friend who's in constant contact with him.
Don't know why Beyers going after Pletcher. I actually didn't have him on my very short list. Also I truly believe some of the move ups are legitimate. But why do some hot trainers suddenly start losing when tracks watch their barns?

I suppose Baseball players don't take steroids because it hasn't been detected or is illegal? Barry Bonds denies it. Sure he was on Balco's calender but that was just a suggestion of what they would do (as Bonds suggested), also the player that just implicated him is probably lying or as some grudge. I agree with Beyers subject matter and so do a lot of other knowledgable people.
The TWO things I wish he would do are:
Don't personally attack individual trainers until you have a solid base of proof or suggested evidence and explain what that is, it might come back to bite you in the ass,
Give some other specific examples of when hot trainers who had a message sent to them by the track and suddenly when cold.

P.S. I was outraged by the battery instance with Santos myself but let's not forget about Patten and his ride on (can't remember the horse).

[PaceAdvantage]

So, I guess Pletcher is answering the question today. This headline is a crock....Pletcher ain't no crook, he's a damn good trainer with damn good horses.

[Niko]

As you can see in above post, that's why Pletcher's not on my short list. Good horses, good trainer.

[cj]

See Frankel is his same old self though. To be honest, I didn't give his horses much chance other than Ghostzapper, but seeing how his others have done ZERO again, I'd look elsewhere.

[cj]

Glad I didn't listen to my own post, couldn't ignore the huge figure edge he had!

[Fastracehorse]

Pletcher is: ( 6 0 0 0 .00 ) at Aqu so far - and non-believers of doping should see this as strange.

Why??

How come??

Too small a sample to be relevant??

Fluke??

His stock doesn't handle the big A??

fffastt

[PaceAdvantage]

Pletcher got off the snide today.

[hurrikane]

Pletcher typically runs about 18% at the big A.

so, I would say, yes, 6 is to small a sample.

He is pretty streaky and runs better at certain tracks.

[Zman179]

Linrom1 had better be careful with his threads. To insinuate that someone said something when in fact that person said nothing of the sort, could open up that person (in this case Linrom1) to a civil suit for slander.

I'm quite sure that he doesn't do THAT well on the horses to pay for lawyers.

[cj]

Of all the supposed "juice" or "super" trainers, I'd have to say this was the first time I've ever heard Pletcher mentioned. I think Beyer was off base here, and linrom wasn't even in the park.

[the little guy]

I am not going to accuse anybody of anything, and certainly Todd Pletcher is an exceptional trainer with exceptional horses, but I'm surprised at the reactions around here. Whether true or not, Pletcher's name constantly comes up when juicing is mentioned, and it seems that posters here may be the only ones that have never heard this. Considering he uses the same vet as others whose names are often bandied about this hardly comes as a surprise.

I would also like to add that the reports coming from Lone Star are that there was little to no monitoring done at the barns this year.

[Blackgold]

Beyer is a whiner because his figs don't transfer track to track, so he says everyone is doping.

Couple weeks ago in closing days at SA the 7/5 FAV ran out of the money because the public jumped on his high DMR fig. The exacta returned $344.

One of my favorite plays is to look for sprints where the runners' figs are coming from different tracks and gladly take the Beyer happy public's money. . . that's where you find the dope(s).

[Observer]

Trainers having "off days" at the Breeders' Cup couldn't possibly be explained as maybe some trainers overthinking the day?? Almost along the lines of trainers holding their talented 3yo males out of the Juvenile for a shot at the following year's Kentucky Derby!!

A trainers' annual stats are supposed to transfer perfectly into a one-day event???!! I think not.

So if the fingers are going to be pointed with serious accusations at certain trainers for their lack of performance on Breeders' Cup day, what do you all say about high-profile jockeys who end up with similarly poor records on Breeders' Cup day, as in the case of Edgar Prado??

Pointing fingers and making unsubstantiated accusations are a very dangerous and sad thing.

[JustRalph]

I think the fact that the best horses and trainers in the world are all in the same location for a day, may explain some of this stuff. Frankel often beats up on much less guality stock. But not on Breeders cup day.

I am starting to think that excuse for Frankel is wearing thin though. By the sheer number of starts in the Brd. Cup, I am wondering about Frankel.

Pletcher, Who knows? He has much better horses nowadays

[cryptic1]

I understand that Frankel liked only two of his horses to win
at LS and one of them won. Just because the public bets
most of his horses heavily, it doesn't necessarily follow that
they will always run to their odds. When you have large
fields of good horses the unanticipated will occur. You only
have to look at the prices at the Breeder's Cup every year to
recognize that. Frankel's lack of success at the Breeder's may
be a function of many variables not just a lack of a magic
elixir. The Stronach horses run drug free, GZ is not the
product of any magic. Given excellent stock Frankel doesn't
need an elixir to win. Frankly its tiresome hearing these
insinuations and aspersions without any concrete evidence.


cryptic1

[cj]

I agree somewhat about Frankel, I've actually hit on 3 of his BC winners, Ghostzapper, Squirtle Squirt, and Starine. I handicapped them as the best in the race, or at least overlaid at the odds. Very few of his his others have I actually liked in the race.

Frankel is a "move up" trainer, like a few others we all know. They move up big time when he FIRST acquires his stock, but afterwards, the horses are a known quantity. So on BC Day, there aren't really any big surprises.

By the way, Allen Jerkens continued his horrible BC record on Saturday, maybe he's a juicer! :p

[Observer]

Originally posted by cj
...By the way, Allen Jerkens continued his horrible BC record on Saturday, maybe he's a juicer! :p

Now that you mention it, just what did happen with Society Selection??
:rolleyes:

[Fastracehorse]

Pletcher's stats as of today in DRF: ( 12 1 2 0 .08 )

Dutrow's : ( 7 2 2 1 .29 )

=====================================

Pletcher yearly: ( 834 214 .25 )

Dutrow yearly: ( 508 136 .27 )

=====================================

Pletcher had a 7:5 get thumped today - not included in above.

Dutrow won at least the 9th - not included in above.

======================================

What is my point?? Answer: Beyer isn't far off base.

Beyer's problem is that he has a vendetta vs. certain trainers - that isn't subjective or fair.








fffastt

[PaceAdvantage]

So, good trainers are supposed to win at a constant clip based on recent history?

Huh?

Ever heard of statistical streaks? Do great hitters in baseball hit a constant .333? Or do they have runs of .400+ and lows in the .200s???

Do jockeys go on cold streaks? Do horses go on cold streaks?

Of course they do!

Unless you have proof, stay quiet. AND if you have PROOF, please report to the proper authorities IMMEDIATELY!

[hurrikane]

FFFAAASSTTTT

your stats are way to generic,

anyone says Pletcher is crook doesn't follow trn barns, their stock, track, and the jocks they use during the year.

why doens't anyone complain about the 1 fer 47 trainer that wins a friggin raced with a nothing jockey... and kills my bet
why did they beat my bet. It must be crooked. They must be wrong. No way they can beat my horse. FOUL! FOUL!

Now I'm not naive but why don't they look at who is pumping the drugs at this level..this is where it would happen most. Uh..gee...no press? go figure.

But no one knows them..why bitch..who would listen.

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally posted by Observer
Now that you mention it, just what did happen with Society Selection??
:rolleyes:

Awaiting a report from the search party.

[Fastracehorse]

Proof?? I have none.

PA,

I have learned not to be too inflammatory on this subject - it's like politics and religion. I have bit my tongue however.

I was letting a foremost authority on the subject ( Andy Beyer ) and stats speak for me.

If Pletcher improves over his start, and I have seen that happen, good for him.

Re: Cold streaks - we all have them - But PA: The more important question to me is: What about the long and lengthy hot streaks??

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

You are right, my stats are not a scientific assessment - more anecdotal.

In science, one does not need definitive proof - but enough converging evidence is enough to define proof - that is scientific.

I think I have enough converging evidence over the years to confidently say that drugs are a big part of tb racing.

About Pletcher, I have nothing against him - and I did say yesterday that Beyer was vindictive to Pletcher - which makes his attack weak.

One interesting thing Beyer did say was:'That 'cappers adjust for drug use.' I shamefully do this.

fffastt

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
I am not going to accuse anybody of anything, and certainly Todd Pletcher is an exceptional trainer with exceptional horses, but I'm surprised at the reactions around here. Whether true or not, Pletcher's name constantly comes up when juicing is mentioned, and it seems that posters here may be the only ones that have never heard this. Considering he uses the same vet as others whose names are often bandied about this hardly comes as a surprise.

I would also like to add that the reports coming from Lone Star are that there was little to no monitoring done at the barns this year.

Flashback to 1996 breeders cup..Ricks Natural Star the laughing stock of the breeders cup.He was put in a barn away from the other contenders, Didnt have any securty at his stall or walking to the track..The breeders cup people were hoping something would happen so he couldnt run..Even know he didnt belong IT wasnt any reason NOT to protect him, Any kook could have done something to him..As for vets..Yes he had the " state vet" feel his legs and watch him walk!..Thats it..So telling me the securty is tougher ..maybe for the top horses,.Also have to laugh when they say security knows horses, Hell they run from them..Tod is a remarkable trainer and it seems to me if you think back to 1995 when F Passero had that 15 in a row win steak at Gulfstream Park..Beyer had a lot to say about that! Juiced horses lmao..They just got beat plain and simple..Why would they "juice" their horses to lose?

[cj]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Why would they "juice" their horses to lose?

Noone claims they juiced their horses to lose. The claim is they aren't able to provide the juice needed to win when security is tight.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cj
Noone claims they juiced their horses to lose. The claim is they aren't able to provide the juice needed to win when security is tight.

I see what you mean..Love the word "Juiced" Thats so funny to me!.
Lets put it this way.(Horsemans terms).For a horse to be ready for a race everything has to be "perfect".I myself have seen my own horse feeling great in the morn, Walk to the paddock like they were 'Bill The Bear" and after they walked around with the saddle, you can sense a change..I cant explain it, Its like a horse knows its outclassed.Im sure we all would love to have that special "Rocket Juice". So the " Juice to win' lies on whether the horse is 'Ready' to run!

[cj]

Tom,

Do you really think illegal medications play no part in racing? Where there is money, there will always be people trying to steal it one way or another. I find it naive to believe some aren't at least trying to cheat.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by cj
Tom,

Do you really think illegal medications play no part in racing? Where there is money, there will always be people trying to steal it one way or another. I find it naive to believe some aren't at least trying to cheat.

Good question Cj, There are people doing horrible things now a days for money, Myself I have never been part of anything like that so I cant answer that honestly.I do know when I win a race I know I was honest in everything I done prior to the race.I really dont think there is a wonder drug that makes a horse run faster..Comes down to proper maintence of the horse. period..If the horse isnt up to par on race day even know he is the favorite..You as the bettor are being cheated.Favorites get beat everyday..WHY..Lots of trainers think if I drop him down he will win..Not so if he has issues.. Same with million dollar runners..They have to be perfect to win!

[Show Me the Wire]

Run faster. What does that mean? Does it mean a horse actually moves faster through increased muscle twitching or sustain its top speed for a longer period of time or distance, if you prefer.

Carrying more oxygen in the blood increases muscle performance through the blockage of lactic acid build-up. If a drug enhances blood to carry more oxygen it will inhibit the build-up in lactic acid resulting in the horse carrying its top speed over a longer distance of the race.

McShell you say there is no drug that can make a horse run faster. Well I disagree because there is a drug that can do the above and it is originally known as EPO. I say originally because there is at least a second generation of this type of drug.

So, I at least know of one drug that can make a horse run faster, in the sense the horse carries it top speed for a longer distance allowing the horse to run a faster time over the distance.

Bottom line is I disagree with your assertion about the absence of wonder drugs.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[the little guy]

In 2002 at Saratoga, as some of you may remember, three Todd Pletcher trained horses died in a week, all after running devastatingly impressive races. Left Bank stretched out to 1 1/8 miles in the Whitney, sat off a fast pace and blew away Street Cry, Lido Palace and Evening Attire. Warners, a promising but so far disapointing 3YO, won by 10 ( while dropping from 2-1 to even money as the field left the gate ) and a 2YO filly dueled through excruciating fractions in the Adirondack, only to draw away and win by 5 or more. All three of these horses were dead within days.

Coincidence?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
Run faster. What does that mean? Does it mean a horse actually moves faster through increased muscle twitching or sustain its top speed for a longer period of time or distance, if you prefer.

Carrying more oxygen in the blood increases muscle performance through the blockage of lactic acid build-up. If a drug enhances blood to carry more oxygen it will inhibit the build-up in lactic acid resulting in the horse carrying its top speed over a longer distance of the race.

McShell you say there is no drug that can make a horse run faster. Well I disagree because there is a drug that can do the above and it is originally known as EPO. I say originally because there is at least a second generation of this type of drug.

So, I at least know of one drug that can make a horse run faster, in the sense the horse carries it top speed for a longer distance allowing the horse to run a faster time over the distance.

Bottom line is I disagree with your assertion about the absence of wonder drugs.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

OK what is EPO, Please give me the drug name!..Then Ill post more, Havent heard of this..Maybe it has a proper name. Thanks..

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
In 2002 at Saratoga, as some of you may remember, three Todd Pletcher trained horses died in a week, all after running devastatingly impressive races. Left Bank stretched out to 1 1/8 miles in the Whitney, sat off a fast pace and blew away Street Cry, Lido Palace and Evening Attire. Warners, a promising but so far disapointing 3YO, won by 10 ( while dropping from 2-1 to even money as the field left the gate ) and a 2YO filly dueled through excruciating fractions in the Adirondack, only to draw away and win by 5 or more. All three of these horses were dead within days.

Coincidence?

Very interesting,I think I remember something like that..Did they do autopsies on the horses?..Remember Swale..He did the same thing.We had a horse do the same thing here after running her eyeballs out..died 2 days after her race..seems she burst a blood vessel in her head from trying so hard..

[Show Me the Wire]

McShell:

erythoprotein.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
McShell:

erythoprotein.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

I bad. Correct spelling of EPO, Erythopoietin.

Perplexed you never heard about it. Lots of press coverage given to EPO in horse racing publications, including articles in the DRF.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[JustRalph]

Mcshell, you never heard of EPO? Come on ?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by the little guy
In 2002 at Saratoga, as some of you may remember, three Todd Pletcher trained horses died in a week, all after running devastatingly impressive races. Left Bank stretched out to 1 1/8 miles in the Whitney, sat off a fast pace and blew away Street Cry, Lido Palace and Evening Attire. Warners, a promising but so far disapointing 3YO, won by 10 ( while dropping from 2-1 to even money as the field left the gate ) and a 2YO filly dueled through excruciating fractions in the Adirondack, only to draw away and win by 5 or more. All three of these horses were dead within days.

Coincidence?

Whether it was a coincidence or not, I wonder how the press and folks on this message board would have treated this tragic occurance if the trainer had been D. Wayne Lukas and not Todd Pletcher (yes, I know Pletcher was an assistant for Lukas, so maybe this is a bad example)

It infuriates me when certain trainers get a pass when their horses are injured or die, but others get put on the hot seat time and time again.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Whether it was a coincidence or not, I wonder how the press and folks on this message board would have treated this tragic occurance if the trainer had been D. Wayne Lukas and not Todd Pletcher (yes, I know Pletcher was an assistant for Lukas, so maybe this is a bad example)

It infuriates me when certain trainers get a pass when their horses are injured or die, but others get put on the hot seat time and time again. Yes, Pletcher should have, at the very least, have been questioned in that situation.

The industry has its collective head buried in the sand which has effectively aided and abetted the cheaters. " Why should I worry, they never do anything anyway " seems to be the general feeling.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Mcshell, you never heard of EPO? Come on ?

Ralph to be very honest?? No I havent!!
I did ask my vet today and had a great learning chat

Epo is a hormone given to stimulate the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells, Thus creating more oxygen to the blood and muscles.This can do several things to a horse,The worst, recent studies have show that giving this drug may also have a reverse effect.Further studies have shown this drug to make a horse"s imumune system shut down.And also make its own immune system attack itself??..Sounds scary to me

Ralph you must remember I am not a crook and never think of ways to cheat with my horse,I guess people that are evil will know about how to do these things. I tend to shy from this kind of stuff.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Ralph you must remember I am not a crook and never think of ways to cheat with my horse,I guess people that are evil will know about how to do these things. I tend to shy from this kind of stuff.

Ok......I take it you don't bet on many races.........? If you were a capper you would have heard about it running through the Texas tracks last year..........point taken.

[Show Me the Wire]

McShell:

I assume you do not mean Ralph and I are evil, because we know about EPO.

It is very unusual to hear you say you never heard of this drug. You would have to be living in a cave, not to hear about this drug due to the significant horse racing press coverage given to it over the last few years.

If I recall correctly on the LA. circuit specific written warnings about the high level of hormones in winning horses were given to owners and trainers. No names were disclosed and no disciplinary action taken.

Additionally, NYRA issued a statement about its ability to test for EPO and mandatory testing of horses stabled a NYRA tracks.

This specific drug has been and is still a hot topic in racing. Disturbing that horsemen could still be so naive about it.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
McShell:

I assume you do not mean Ralph and I are evil, because we know about EPO.

It is very unusual to hear you say you never heard of this drug. You would have to be living in a cave, not to hear about this drug due to the significant horse racing press coverage given to it over the last few years.

If I recall correctly on the LA. circuit specific written warnings about the high level of hormones in winning horses were given to owners and trainers. No names were disclosed and no disciplinary action taken.

Additionally, NYRA issued a statement about its ability to test for EPO and mandatory testing of horses stabled a NYRA tracks.

This specific drug has been and is still a hot topic in racing. Disturbing that horsemen could still be so naive about it.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

Yes it is disturbing!..LMAO NO I dont think you and Ralph are evil..And NO Ralph I dont gamble. Here in South Florida as others members will tell you The only news we get is either in the forms or the internet,I think our newspaper horse racing writers suck! Im sure this kind of drug scandle was splashed all over the news in New York and Cali.Like I said Im the kind of trainer that just worries about his own doings,I dont tend to worry about the other guy, Guess I figure if he is doing something wrong he will get caught.When you have horses that are running on a wing and a prayer, Drugging them to win is the last thing on your mind!.Im the kind of trainer that was raised to look after horses the old way.Dont get me wrong, I will help and do what I have to get them ready..But all within the rules of racing

[the little guy]

EPO stories have been all over Daily Racing Form for more than a year. But, I have another question...You're a TRAINER? And you've never heard of EPO?

Come on.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
EPO stories have been all over Daily Racing Form for more than a year. But, I have another question...You're a TRAINER? And you've never heard of EPO?

Come on.

Yes I am a trainer..AND a damn good 1..Take a moment to look at my website instead of always trying to BELITTLE me.

[midnight]

Odd. I've gone through my entire 2002 database, which is every track averaging $500,000+ handle per day. No Thomas Schell listed as trainer. Wild Excess, which Lisa McFarlane did ride in 2002 when it won at 24-1, was trained then by Barry Croft.

I've been gone for a while and only have a current database from August of this year to the present. Again, no Thomas Schell as trainer. Do you list somebody else as your trainer?

I'm not trying to start anything. I don't read these boards from cover to cover, and I'm merely curious.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Yes I am a trainer..AND a damn good 1..Take a moment to look at my website instead of always trying to BELITTLE me. Belittling you based on your posts is pretty easy, and frankly, considering some of the things you post, I've been very kind.

On you declaring yourself a " damn good " trainer, well, ya know, self praise is no praise at all. And if you were so " damn good " I would believe someone here might have at least heard of you.

[delayjf]

Mcshell,

Can you comment about the usage of creatine in horses??

and how about steroids, which I understand if legal in horse racing. I know some here disagree, but both substances can and does improve speed.

I can understand why a trainer might stiff a horse. Suppose he heard that some bridge jumper was going to unload on his horse. But one would not need drugs to do the job. No kidding, I had a trainer tell me that if he wanted to stiff a horse, he simple feed him just prior to walking him over.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by delayjf
Mcshell,

Can you comment about the usage of creatine in horses??

and how about steroids, which I understand if legal in horse racing. I know some here disagree, but both substances can and does improve speed.

I can understand why a trainer might stiff a horse. Suppose he heard that some bridge jumper was going to unload on his horse. But one would not need drugs to do the job. No kidding, I had a trainer tell me that if he wanted to stiff a horse, he simple feed him just prior to walking him over.

As Im to beleive the harness racing people came up with Creatine , It was used at first hoping to give a horse more air but really worked better as a muscle stiffness med, Lots of guys would give it on race day,It didnt work..Vets here hardly use it.There are several steriods you may give ,If your talking equipoise or are you talking about cortizone.I love to put gelding on equipoise as it beefs them up and gives them heart and makes them agressive. Go to my webpage and you will see all the examples.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Good name. LOL.
This website of the HBPA 2002 says lack of Nat'l testing and banned lists cause lots of practical and reputation problems.
There are many banned drugs and many are mispelled or have other names or initials.
To blast Tom is unfair because no one has complete knowledge of racing as it is a sport that is very information intensive in all aspects. I would not expect you, for instance, to know what I know about various subjects.
Tom does not have a lot of horses but all his horses have performed well and he gets maximum effort out of them without doing them harm.
In my historically short contact with him, I can tell you that I have personally done very well the few times I was aware of his horses racing.
I have personally profited financially from knowing Tom and learned a lot of valuable things from him.
I suggest you search these forums for Tom's posting and learn some things.
http://www.hbpa.org/resources/MedicationPolicy.pdf

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
Belittling you based on your posts is pretty easy, and frankly, considering some of the things you post, I've been very kind.

On you declaring yourself a " damn good " trainer, well, ya know, self praise is no praise at all. And if you were so " damn good " I would believe someone here might have at least heard of you.

A comment like that and NOT researching ALL my previous posts YOU and others would KNOW my I am not down as trainer for my horse!!
What do you think I pretend I am a trainer?..Just because someone has different views then you doesnt mean they dont know their stuff.And really..Tell me What is a trainer??,Ill bet you have never spent 15 hours mucking stalls training riding doing them up.feeding them..Do you think I would have time to listen to all the bullshit all them trainers in the trackside kitchen have to say?..Do you think I would have time to sit back and watch tv??..Get real bub!
Guess you need to go to Ft Eries stats,Lok at Gulfstream 35 wins 1994 F Passero, look up the 15 in a row at Gulfstream 1995 F Passero, Look up Woodbine 93 wins 1995 F Passero, I was his assistant during that time,I ws the guy in the barn with the vets (Have SEVERAL outstanding recommendations) Have had my own stable and have always maintained a 30% win average, Trained mostly in Canada and Now get a stall which I pay a percentage to the trainer and do all my own work as my wife gallops them, yes she rode Wild Excess for me, with Barry as the trainer, Need to look up Fast Departure for Larry Pilotti a 10 yr old that everybody lauged at me..I won 5 with him...Another 10 yo Air Cool..David Vivian..I won 3 in a row!!..I am just a very small guy who does know horses,I dont have the pull to get a stall but I like the arrangement I got. Go ahead and look me up..Oh Yeah I was also Asst Trainer of the year at Wooodbine in 1995 Unanimous decsision.Been with the horses since 1972 and got my trainers licence in 1982 ad WON with my very first horse.Yes nobody has heard of me,Words are crap I know, Just give me a horse and Ill show you! Thats why I have my own small stable..I love this game.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
Good name. LOL.
This website of the HBPA 2002 says lack of Nat'l testing and banned lists cause lots of practical and reputation problems.
There are many banned drugs and many are mispelled or have other names or initials.
To blast Tom is unfair because no one has complete knowledge of racing as it is a sport that is very information intensive in all aspects. I would not expect you, for instance, to know what I know about various subjects.
Tom does not have a lot of horses but all his horses have performed well and he gets maximum effort out of them without doing them harm.
In my historically short contact with him, I can tell you that I have personally done very well the few times I was aware of his horses racing.
I have personally profited financially from knowing Tom and learned a lot of valuable things from him.
I suggest you search these forums for Tom's posting and learn some things.
http://www.hbpa.org/resources/MedicationPolicy.pdf While I appreciate what you're saying, I have only " blasted " Tom for what he said here, which was confrontational and shockingly naive ( even more so now that I find out he's a horseman ). He also made a number of preposterous accusations about me which had absolutely nothing to do with what I had said. While I hear where you're coming from as to the massive amounts of different drugs being used, EPO is pretty much in a class by itself. It has been far and away the number one drug discussed nationally over the last year plus. Most states now use a test for EPO, which is also well publicized, and just the fact that it seems most posters here are very knowledgable about it speaks volumes. I don't think it is unfair to be surprised that a self-professed " damn good trainer " should have at least heard of EPO.

Tom may very well be a terrific horseman, but I don't think he has been treated unfairly here, at least in response to his many posts.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I am here to learn information.
I personally have no recollection specifically of EPO but I seldom read the form as my betting is usually just off the program or information from betting sites.
I use the form mainly for my place/show betting which I have not done as much of lately as ny speed track betting.
Can you tell me how I can see your show? Thanks:
Actually, CapperLou, unlike you I do in fact do a show on television where, also unlike you, I give out opinions before the races are run.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
A comment like that and NOT researching ALL my previous posts YOU and others would KNOW my I am not down as trainer for my horse!!
What do you think I pretend I am a trainer?..Just because someone has different views then you doesnt mean they dont know their stuff.And really..Tell me What is a trainer??,Ill bet you have never spent 15 hours mucking stalls training riding doing them up.feeding them..Do you think I would have time to listen to all the bullshit all them trainers in the trackside kitchen have to say?..Do you think I would have time to sit back and watch tv??..Get real bub!
Guess you need to go to Ft Eries stats,Lok at Gulfstream 35 wins 1994 F Passero, look up the 15 in a row at Gulfstream 1995 F Passero, Look up Woodbine 93 wins 1995 F Passero, I was his assistant during that time,I ws the guy in the barn with the vets (Have SEVERAL outstanding recommendations) Have had my own stable and have always maintained a 30% win average, Trained mostly in Canada and Now get a stall which I pay a percentage to the trainer and do all my own work as my wife gallops them, yes she rode Wild Excess for me, with Barry as the trainer, Need to look up Fast Departure for Larry Pilotti a 10 yr old that everybody lauged at me..I won 5 with him...Another 10 yo Air Cool..David Vivian..I won 3 in a row!!..I am just a very small guy who does know horses,I dont have the pull to get a stall but I like the arrangement I got. Go ahead and look me up..Oh Yeah I was also Asst Trainer of the year at Wooodbine in 1995 Unanimous decsision.Been with the horses since 1972 and got my trainers licence in 1982 ad WON with my very first horse.Yes nobody has heard of me,Words are crap I know, Just give me a horse and Ill show you! Thats why I have my own small stable..I love this game. You were Frank Passero's assistant????? Now that's funny. I was in the Press Box at Gulfstream when Frank invited himself up to defend himself against what he felt were unfair allegations. That was quite hilarious. Frank really seems to be flourishing now. Truly a shame to see a wonderful horseman, one who did so much for the game, falling on hard times.

As usual, you suggest I said things I didn't. I never said you weren't a trainer. And I don't need to read ALL of your posts ( just as I wouldn't ask you to read all of mine ) as I am only responding to ones I have read.

Good luck with your horses, I truly wish you all the best, just stay away from that cayenne pepper.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
I am here to learn information.
I personally have no recollection specifically of EPO but I seldom read the form as my betting is usually just off the program or information from betting sites.
I use the form mainly for my place/show betting which I have not done as much of lately as ny speed track betting.
Can you tell me how I can see your show? Thanks:
Actually, CapperLou, unlike you I do in fact do a show on television where, also unlike you, I give out opinions before the races are run. One more thing I meant to add, as a trainer ( Tom, not you ) I would think it would be essential to know all drugs that are tested for, if for no other reason than to not accidently administer them.

[kenwoodallpromos]

http://www.hbpa.org/NewsDisplay.asp?STORYID=2302.
Little Guy that last comment about cayenne pepper showeed you to be a real asshole. No wonder you like that jackass Beyer.
L<osers like you always have to find someone else to Blast to try and bring them down to your level.
I'll match race predictions with you anytime.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
http://www.hbpa.org/NewsDisplay.asp?STORYID=2302.
Little Guy that last comment about cayenne pepper showeed you to be a real asshole. No wonder you like that jackass Beyer.
L<osers like you always have to find someone else to Blast to try and bring them down to your level.
I'll match race predictions with you anytime. First of all it was a joke. I assume, since you called me an asshole, that you know Frank Passero, Tom's boss at the time, was caught putting Cayenne Pepper on his horses genitals.

I am also proud to be a friend of Andy Beyer's, a man who has done great things for the game, unlike Frank Passero.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I just searched you posts: you sure like to speak badly of anyone who has an opinion and you are very pompASS.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
I just searched you posts: you sure like to speak badly of anyone who has an opinion and you are very pompASS. Any other obscenities you need to refer to me with?

[chickenhead]

Originally posted by the little guy
Frank Passero, Tom's boss at the time, was caught putting Cayenne Pepper on his horses genitals.

so, in other words, they caught him red-handed?

LMAO!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
First of all it was a joke. I assume, since you called me an asshole, that you know Frank Passero, Tom's boss at the time, was caught putting Cayenne Pepper on his horses genitals.

I am also proud to be a friend of Andy Beyer's, a man who has done great things for the game, unlike Frank Passero.
Ok EXPERT!!. You want to talk about Frank...Why would you degrade a person that has done what he has,, Also if you did your homework..You will see he was never caught doing ANYTHING..He was even found not guilty..Want to argue about it some more?? Figures you are a friend of Andy Beyer as Andy and Frank clashed all the time.Frank never done a thing wrong..BUT win races

[the little guy]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Ok EXPERT!!. You want to talk about Frank...Why would you degrade a person that has done what he has,, Also if you did your homework..You will see he was never caught doing ANYTHING..He was even found not guilty..Want to argue about it some more?? Figures you are a friend of Andy Beyer as Andy and Frank clashed all the time.Frank never done a thing wrong..BUT win races Once again, I am proud to be associated in any way with Andy Beyer and if you feel the same way about your association with Frank passero that is certainly your right.

Once again, I wish you all the best with your horses, both current and future.

[midnight]

Well I got an indirect answer to my question, which is that Mr Schell isn't listed as the trainer of record on his horses. That's not unusual, and it satisifies my curiosity.

It's too bad that I couldn't get a direct answer, but I guess that everybody involved was too busy bitching at each other to take the necessary 30 seconds.

Anyway, this thread is off-topic now and has turned into a pissing match.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by midnight
Odd. I've gone through my entire 2002 database, which is every track averaging $500,000+ handle per day. No Thomas Schell listed as trainer. Wild Excess, which Lisa McFarlane did ride in 2002 when it won at 24-1, was trained then by Barry Croft.

I've been gone for a while and only have a current database from August of this year to the present. Again, no Thomas Schell as trainer. Do you list somebody else as your trainer?

I'm not trying to start anything. I don't read these boards from cover to cover, and I'm merely curious.

Very sorry Midnite,
I didnt mean to indirectly answer your question, Does a horse Thrilla In Manilla ring a bell to you?.Are you a horse person or are you a capper?.I guess I indirectly answered your other questions, Thanks

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey Kenwoodallpromos, what's with the asshole comment? That's not called for.....cool it.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by the little guy
Once again, I am proud to be associated in any way with Andy Beyer and if you feel the same way about your association with Frank passero that is certainly your right.

Once again, I wish you all the best with your horses, both current and future.

I guess I should of said thats funny you are a friend of Andy..Him and Frank I am told (Was always at the barn) always fought.
I have nothing against Andy Beyer, Im kind of marveled at what he does.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
I guess I should of said thats funny you are a friend of Andy..Him and Frank I am told (Was always at the barn) always fought.
I have nothing against Andy Beyer, Im kind of marveled at what he does. That's actually why I thought it was funny as well. There are a number of funny stories of Frank being upset by Andy.

[tholl]

So what exactly was Passero's edge in 1995 if it was not pepper related? Just a big fluke ? Why has he never reproduced that performance ?
IMO Beyer is great for racing, hes one of the very few journalists brave enough to voice an opinion. If we had more like him maybe we would have less of this " "super trainer" " BS that is ruining the sport that we all love.

[tholl]

Originally posted by the little guy
That's actually why I thought it was funny as well. There are a number of funny stories of Frank being upset by Andy.

Would love to hear one or two of those, please !

[kenwoodallpromos]

OK.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Mr Beyer's column describes his impressions of the 1940 Santa Anita Handicap after watching newsreel footage of the race at the National Museum of Racing in Saratoga Springs, New York. After viewing the film Mr Beyer wrote: The film of the race is a newsreel that shows highlights interspersed with shots of cheering crowds — not the seamless start-to-finish coverage that modern racing fans enjoy. I could not see enough of Kayak II’s rally to judge how much momentum he had as he gained on Seabiscuit in the stretch. But after watching how emphatically Haas put his mount under wraps in the last sixteenth of a mile, I believe that Kayak II would have won if he had been permitted to do so.
___________
What % of horseraces does Beyer think is not honest? What % of Pletcher's wins?

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
Mr Beyer's column describes his impressions of the 1940 Santa Anita Handicap after watching newsreel footage of the race at the National Museum of Racing in Saratoga Springs, New York. After viewing the film Mr Beyer wrote: The film of the race is a newsreel that shows highlights interspersed with shots of cheering crowds — not the seamless start-to-finish coverage that modern racing fans enjoy. I could not see enough of Kayak II’s rally to judge how much momentum he had as he gained on Seabiscuit in the stretch. But after watching how emphatically Haas put his mount under wraps in the last sixteenth of a mile, I believe that Kayak II would have won if he had been permitted to do so.
___________
What % of horseraces does Beyer think is not honest? What % of Pletcher's wins? In those days there was a rule which allowed owners of multiple horse entries ( say in this case Kayak was 1 and Seabiscuit was 1a ) to tell the stewards beforehand that they preferred one half of the entry to win over the other. I do not know the name of this rule, but if you would like I will find out tomorrow, and I know it was allowed in at least stake races. In these situations, if the two horses were close at the end, it was considered OK, as long as the stewards were notified beforehand, to hold one back in order to let the other half of the entry win. It is common knowledge that this was the case in the 1940 Santa Anita Handicap as far as Kayak and Seabiscuit were concerned. I believe Andy made this clear in his article, as while I didn't go to the museum with him that day, I certainly spent most of the day at the track with him.

Andy Beyer is the most outspoken critic, and somewhat the only critic, of perceived misuse of illegal medication in horse racing. You may choose to ignore this problem, but few, if any, other horseplayers do. The universal use of the term " super trainers " stems directly from Andy Beyer. The blind eye turned towards problems in racing is very much responsible for many of the problems facing the game today. If more people were like Beyer, perhaps this situation would not be the epidemic it is today. If you don't like what he says, that's certainly your perogitive, but make no mistake that you are very much in the minority of law abiding racetrackers if you fault Mr. Beyer for his initiative.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I research lists of penalties that trainers get for drugs found in a horse (and in the case of Rhoda March, a mule). So I know a lot violations exist.
I also see that the large majority of those drugs are pain relieving drugs, not enhancement drugs.
One of the reasons I make 20%+ profit on bets is because I make it my business to learn the rules and how the rules are broken; along with the means by which the racing industry intensifies competition within a race.
As a matter of fact, most of my various handicapping and picking methods utilize knowledge of when horses are and are not likely to do well; and what effects racing industry procedures including race conditions and surface variations have on a race.
My latest handicapping method is to predict when a less-than-even odds horse will not do well due to overwork, and I can bet on all longshots in the race at odds of 8-1, 10-1, or 20-1. I making increasing profit with the "false favorite" angle.
But you and Beyer seem to make blanket statements that the major reason certain trainers win at a high rate is due to unsubstantiated doping.
One of those often accused by some is owner Gill, even after he publicly announced the reason his claimers do so well.
I have not personally researched Pletcher's horses who improve dramatically, but a careful examination of most horses' past performances often reveal the cause for that improvement.
I saw the past performance of a horse once who won every other race and there did not seem to be any reason; I had to study its PP for 30 minutes before I figured out the Ca. horse only won when it traveled the length of Ca but lost when it stayed only in either Northern or Southern Ca.
I ended up making some overlay money on that horse and knew when to lay off of it.
I think some trainers are just better at knowing how to get the most out of horses anf there are a lot who just go through the motions to get the day rate.
I would suggest you may want to do what I do and study thoroughbreds from a medical standpoint and also learn when a horse may be stretching its energy potential. It helped me.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by tholl
So what exactly was Passero's edge in 1995 if it was not pepper related? Just a big fluke ? Why has he never reproduced that performance ?
IMO Beyer is great for racing, hes one of the very few journalists brave enough to voice an opinion. If we had more like him maybe we would have less of this " "super trainer" " BS that is ruining the sport that we all love.

I left Frank just after the streak ended ( Personal reasons).Whether you want to beleive it or not, I was the guy in the barn with the vets tending the horses, Lisa was his only rider,If you notice he has never repeated this feat and I dont think anybody ever will.Lok up his stats for the woodbine meets and Gulfstream during that time..Hell he even thanks me and my wife Lisa in his book Winning ways. The great thing about Frank..He knew where to run them and I knew how to fix them up.We were a great team.

[the little guy]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos

But you and Beyer seem to make blanket statements that the major reason certain trainers win at a high rate is due to unsubstantiated doping.
First you come here, and in your second or third post to me, you call me an asshole. You have no apology for this. Then you write a long post, altering an article Beyer wrote about Seabiscuit, where he was recounting a reasonably well known ( in racing circles ) incident, one that was misrepresented in the Seabiscuit movie. I took the time to explain to you what the real situation. You follow this up without any sort of " thanks, I didn't understand that ". Whatever.

But now, you say I " seem to make blanket statements that the major reason certain trainers win at a high rate is due to unsubstantiated doping ". NOWHERE have I made these statements. Who are you to put libelous words in my mouth?

This is the final correspondance/post I will have with you and I would like you to do the same with me. I also believe that this site would benefit from your removal.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"The industry has its collective head buried in the sand which has effectively aided and abetted the cheaters."
Since little guy said his comment to Tom was a joke, I apologize.
My post about Seabiscuit was a cut and paste and unaltered.

[Observer]

Y'all need to take a step back and cool it .. this thread is absolutely insane.

[PaceAdvantage]

Good advice Observer....good advice...

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by midnight
Well I got an indirect answer to my question, which is that Mr Schell isn't listed as the trainer of record on his horses. That's not unusual, and it satisifies my curiosity.




midnight,

Just a .02 cent's worth, & I don't know Mcshell & never met him.....

Three or four times a month I go to a farm in SE Dallas county to watch horses work in the mornings. The owner/ breeder that runs the place does 95% of the training for his horses right there on the farm. The trainer's duty (for most of his runners) is to saddle 'em, give a leg up, then unsaddle them. That's it.

The o/b buys the horses, trains them at his farm's training track, places them in races from his office, etc...Also has a vet treat them at the farm.

I dunno how many in the business do it like this, but you can't always tell WHO trains the horse by the names in the stupid DRF. It's also why I use trainer stats a lot less than I did and when I do use them, I use em differently. .....just an fyi.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by ElKabong
midnight,

Just a .02 cent's worth, & I don't know Mcshell & never met him.....

Three or four times a month I go to a farm in SE Dallas county to watch horses work in the mornings. The owner/ breeder that runs the place does 95% of the training for his horses right there on the farm. The trainer's duty (for most of his runners) is to saddle 'em, give a leg up, then unsaddle them. That's it.

The o/b buys the horses, trains them at his farm's training track, places them in races from his office, etc...Also has a vet treat them at the farm.

I dunno how many in the business do it like this, but you can't always tell WHO trains the horse by the names in the stupid DRF. It's also why I use trainer stats a lot less than I did and when I do use them, I use em differently. .....just an fyi.

The hardest thing in this business is having someone you can trust!.So many owners get lead down the garden path listening to lying trainers. Nothing is worse then your trainer telling you " everything" is ok with your horse then going to the barn and seeing for yourself that things arent as peachy as your trainer tells you, IMO the hardest thing for a trainer is to tell the owner something is wrong, Yes lots of owners/breeders train and enter their own horses and have a program trainer to just saddle and give the jock a leg up. another thing I find very discouraging is trying to get a stall for your runner, The small guy doesnt have a shot at getting a stall, Even if you like to run often.The small guy has it a lot harder then say a Tod Fletcher as the small guy will have to ship into the track to either run or breeze in the morn.IMO the tracks make it a lot harder for the small guy to suport racing!

[ElKabong]

Mcshell,

Yeah, he said every one of his first few trainers were "crooks" and took him to the cleaners so he decided to buy a farm and train on it. Too bad, he's gonna get out of racing soon. The industry here needs folks like him (people with $$ willing to invest and compete).

[delayjf]

Mcschnell,

If trainers were attempting to use creatine in the manner in which you described, no wonder if didn't work. Creatine is fuel that the muscles can use in anaerobic exercise. (sprinting, weightlifting etc) Body builders and weightlifters use it and its affectiveness is well documented (in humans). The idea is to super-saturate the muscles with creatine which allows the muscles to work harder and longer. But it takes a period of weeks to get the effect. Assuming horse muscle physiology is simular to humans, the same loading phase would be required. I have never heard or read anything about creatine being used to clear the lungs. Sounds like your describing Clenbuterol.

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
... say a Tod Fletcher ...

I would imagine you mean to be referring to Todd Pletcher??? Is it really that difficult to get someone like Todd Pletcher's name right??? He's only among the very top trainers in the game.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: