Patriotic duty to our country

[ljb]

Wrap the flag around these facts.

It's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of the major political parties. There are some surprises here. Be sure to read to the end where the TV pundits who jabber about military service have their military credentials exposed.

Democrats

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts.
* John Edwards: did not serve.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star,Vietnam.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze
Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam;
Bronze Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Bomber pilot, many missions. Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Avoided service. with student deferments. Entered draft but received 311.
* Jimmy Carter: Annapolis grad. Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Said to have served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
* Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple
Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
* John Dingell: WWII vet
* John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea


Republicans

* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* House Whip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had "other priorities." Several deferments, the last for wife's pregnancy.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism

* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight
instructor.
* George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four
years);
questions about his service remain.
* Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
* Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple
Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
* Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
* Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross,
Silver
Stars, Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
* Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
* Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve


Pundits & Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.

So interesting which party and people wrap themselves in the
American flag...

[sq764]

I must have missed the part next to Kerry's name that said there were still some questions about his service (like the one you put next to Bush's)

[sq764]

Originally posted by ljb
Wrap the flag around these facts.

It's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of the major political parties. There are some surprises here. Be sure to read to the end where the TV pundits who jabber about military service have their military credentials exposed.

Democrats

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V Purple Hearts.
* John Edwards: did not serve.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star,Vietnam.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze
Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam;
Bronze Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Bomber pilot, many missions. Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Avoided service. with student deferments. Entered draft but received 311.
* Jimmy Carter: Annapolis grad. Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Said to have served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
* Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple
Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
* John Dingell: WWII vet
* John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea


Republicans

* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* House Whip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had "other priorities." Several deferments, the last for wife's pregnancy.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism

* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight
instructor.
* George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four
years);
questions about his service remain.
* Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
* Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple
Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
* Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
* Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross,
Silver
Stars, Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
* Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
* Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve


Pundits & Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.

So interesting which party and people wrap themselves in the
American flag...

Curious, where does Michael Moore fit on here?

[Equineer]

Originally posted by sq764
Curious, where does Michael Moore fit on here? LJB omitted many pundits/journalists.

Michael Moore would have been listed with Thomas Paine. :)

[kingfin66]

Kind of one-side to just list the Democrats' service, then put derisive notes next to the Republicans. I was born in 1966. Although I find any war an important part of our nation's history, I have never really cared whether our elected officials have served. I know all the arguments people have for why it is important, but to me it is not a huge issue. It didn't bother me that Clinton didn't serve and wouldn't bother me if Bush hadn't served.

As far as the talking heads go, who really cares if they served or not? The thought of Michael Moore in boot camp does bring a perverse pleasure...My guess would be that it is more important for broadcasters to have background in their chosen field (i.e. education and experience). This makes Michael Medved's career path stand out. Wasn't he a movie critic for a long time? Hearing him on the radio reminds of one of Dana Carvey's SNL characters, The Effeminate Heterosexual. But I digress, this thread can really be summed up as SO WHAT, and WHO CARES?

[delayjf]

lbj,
I assume you supported Bill Clinton where was he in Vietnam???
Care to compare an contrast his service with Bush senior???

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Equineer
LJB omitted many pundits/journalists.

Michael Moore would have been listed with Thomas Paine. :)

Now that is a laugh riot. Most of what Paine published was accurate..........you show your true lunacy in that last post

[Equineer]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Now that is a laugh riot. Most of what Paine published was accurate..........you show your true lunacy in that last post You are getting campaign weary, JustRalph... they would get listed together because they both espoused getting rid of the current government.

What day of the month do you check the mailbox? :)

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by sq764
I must have missed the part next to Kerry's name that said there were still some questions about his service (like the one you put next to Bush's)

Excuse me SQ.. Are you now claiming that whether Kerry actually served is at issue? I gotta tell ya. I have respect for many posters on this board, Repubs or Dem's, but the ones who attack Kerry's heroic service in Nam as an issue in this campaign especially from people who've never faced combat is repulsive.

[lsbets]

Sec,

I question several aspects of Kerry's service and have faced combat and will be facing it again in about 3 days. Sorry if you find it repulsive, my questions come from experience.

[kenwoodallpromos]

You forgot veterans Eisenhower, ended Korean war; Nixon, ended Vitnam war; ford; you listed Reagan, ended cold war; Bush, ended Iraq occupation of Kuwait; Baby Bush, ended reign of Hussein.
--------------------
Demos- Roosevelt, in at start of WWII; Truman, in at start of Korean War; Kennedy-Johnson, in at start of active fighting of Vietnam.

[PaceAdvantage]

How come no left-leaning pundits on the list? Where did Alan Colmes serve for instance? I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

Al Franken....where did he serve?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Al Franken....where did he serve?
Saturday night live and the battle of "Horrible Writing" not to mention a bunch of stupid movies.............where he played himself. I mean....he played the idiot.........

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
How come no left-leaning pundits on the list? Where did Alan Colmes serve for instance? I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

Al Franken....where did he serve?

Al Franken used to serve deserts at Howard Johnsons.
It is his day job to fall back on!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Excuse me SQ.. Are you now claiming that whether Kerry actually served is at issue? I gotta tell ya. I have respect for many posters on this board, Repubs or Dem's, but the ones who attack Kerry's heroic service in Nam as an issue in this campaign especially from people who've never faced combat is repulsive.

Kerry is a liar and a coward. He ran like a little girl from combat with three paper cuts first chance he got and then turned his back on the REAL heros he was not fit to serve with. Adn consorted with the enemy. Did you forget Kerry burned villages and other war crimes, by his own admission. Yeah, I got major problem wiht that scum bucket pretending to be a war hero when he is a gutter traitor. The majority of switg boat vets agree.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Tom
Kerry is a liar and a coward. He ran like a little girl from combat with three paper cuts first chance he got and then turned his back on the REAL heros he was not fit to serve with. Adn consorted with the enemy. Did you forget Kerry burned villages and other war crimes, by his own admission. Yeah, I got major problem wiht that scum bucket pretending to be a war hero when he is a gutter traitor. The majority of switg boat vets agree.

Did you serve Tom? The men on Kerry's boat disagree with you. most of these allegations are a backlash to Kerry's comments after the war. Somebody signied off on those medals. Call those men liars. He didn't sign off on those medals. The Navy has already said everything was appropriate. Your story is dead and debunked, and the continued accusation is repulsive. But keep it up because it seems to be rallying Dems.

[Tom]

Then why is he afraid to reveal his records?
Bush did.
What is he hiding, sec....the names of the people he burned alive?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Tom
Then why is he afraid to reveal his records?
Bush did.
What is he hiding, sec....the names of the people he burned alive?

Good God...Go to bed Tom.

[PaceAdvantage]

Answer Tom's question for a change. Why won't Kerry sign off on all of his military records. It's a simple, straightforward question that should have an easy answer from such a passionate supporter of Mr. Kerry's.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Answer Tom's question for a change. Why won't Kerry sign off on all of his military records. It's a simple, straightforward question that should have an easy answer from such a passionate supporter of Mr. Kerry's.


makes me wonder what the hell is in those records. I thought for sure he would release them in October just to take the heat off of him about it. When he didn't.........I got real interested.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Answer Tom's question for a change. Why won't Kerry sign off on all of his military records. It's a simple, straightforward question that should have an easy answer from such a passionate supporter of Mr. Kerry's.

Kerry has signed off on every document, but one, and his record has been scoured, and the Navy said he derserved all of his medals. Do you want a pound of flesh as well?

Sick.

[Secretariat]

btw...

You can view all his records for yourself.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

[ljb]

Don't waste your time Sec,
These wingnuts don't want the truth, it hurts them too much. :D :D :D

[cj]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Kerry has signed off on every document, but one, and his record has been scoured, and the Navy said he derserved all of his medals. Do you want a pound of flesh as well?

Sick.

Which one, and why?

[cj]

Originally posted by Secretariat
btw...

You can view all his records for yourself.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

All of them, or only the ones he has "signed off?"

[Equineer]

CJ,

This election has certainly made some strange bedfellows.

You, Tom, and JustRalph?

I would bet that you would be clanging their heads together if they were your neighbors. :)

As for Kerry's records... I do know a well-placed source who says what remains hidden as allegation or fact amounts to questioning how many dependent "kin" Kerry should have owned up to, at least financially.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey VetScratch, aren't you NOT supposed to be here? Attempting to constantly come off as a know-it-all isn't flattering. Believe me when I say this.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Equineer
CJ,


As for Kerry's records... I do know a well-placed source who says what remains hidden as allegation or fact amounts to questioning how many dependent "kin" Kerry should have owned up to, at least financially.



You don't know shit.

[ElKabong]

Originally posted by Secretariat
btw...

You can view all his records for yourself.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/military_records.html

I don't see an MTSR or an AAR for the PH #1...That's the PH that Kerry's upward chain of command denied Kerry when Kerry came begging for a PH. Hibbard and Schacte both told Kerry "no" to his request, Kerry only got that PH when Hibbard and Schacte left Vietnam.

I've provided you links and quotes to this before. If you want, I'll do it again.

Btw, Kerry has about 100 pgs of Military doc's he's hiding from the public. Why do you think that is??

If Kerry didn't have anything to hide, he'd have signed the 180....But he didn't... He's hiding some BAD sh!t.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html

94 pages of records unreleased?

[Equineer]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Hey VetScratch, aren't you NOT supposed to be here? Attempting to constantly come off as a know-it-all isn't flattering. Believe me when I say this. Five different posts above wondered what Kerry might be hiding.

You got the only answer that I have heard from anyone in the Washington loop.

And Vetscratch is not here, although I am often Skyped-up with her and other colleagues.

Why don't you invite her back? She knows much more about Thoroughbreds and the "hands on" horse industry than I do (but I may have an edge in software/handicapping).

Are knowledgeable people intimidating? You seem to have an aversion to voices in this forum that obviously like research and analysis better than monotonous sound bites.

[Equineer]

Originally posted by ElKabong
You don't know shit. Ok... so what's the real story about Kerry's records?

[boxcar]

Secretariat wrote:

Kerry has signed off on every document, but one...

Which just happens to be the most important one

Sick

As you deservedly should be for supporting this gutless, opportunistic traitor.

Boxcar

[Tom]

Originally posted by Equineer
Ok... so what's the real story about Kerry's records?

The real story, KatEQVetUs, is that he is afraid to reveal them. As a candidate for commander in chief, he is afraid to show his military record. Although he has already revealed his ture colors, or color.....YELLOW

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Equineer
Are knowledgeable people intimidating? You seem to have an aversion to voices in this forum that obviously like research and analysis better than monotonous sound bites.

You offer no research, no analysis. Just partisan baloney mixed in with long windedness masking itself as intelligence.

I've been reading this same song and dance since 2001, since before VetScratch....another incarnation, whom you're probably "related" to as well.

Cut the bullshit.

[Tom]

KatVetEQUs...may I be Frank??? Or would that be in-sain?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by boxcar
Secretariat wrote:

Kerry has signed off on every document, but one...

Which just happens to be the most important one

Sick

As you deservedly should be for supporting this gutless, opportunistic traitor.

Boxcar


Gutless? Were you in Nam? Have you won a Silver Star, or were you passing out flyers in Alabama in a failed Senate campagin, getting drunk ,and snorting coke during Nam?

[JustRalph]

Hey Sec.........How many guys in Nam had a man assigned to carry an 8mm camera around to film his exploits? I can only think of one.............

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Hey Sec.........How many guys in Nam had a man assigned to carry an 8mm camera around to film his exploits? I can only think of one.............

That's what you've got...I just wish GW had carried around an 8 mm in Alabama so we could have followed his heroics.

[Tom]

Jr...this ones is done-stick a fork in him. He has nothing left to argue so he just spins everything around.

[boxcar]

Secretariat asks:

Gutless? Were you in Nam? Have you won a Silver Star, or were you passing out flyers in Alabama in a failed Senate campagin, getting drunk ,and snorting coke during Nam?

So...going by your twisted logic...just because I wasn't in 'Nam that makes me somewhat less of a man than the lying slimebucket you adore? The guy lucked out big time. For three little scratches, requiring nothing more than bandaids, if that, he gets 3 PHs and a quick ticket back home.

If this traitor doesn't have anything to hide, and he's so big, bad and brave, then why doesn't he sign off on his 180 and release all his records?

And if this gutless wonder is so big, bad and brave, why won't he release his senate intelligence attendance records? Maybe because he's the #1 Slacker in the Senate?

And if this self-proclaimed hero is so big, bad and brave, why did he refuse interviews with O'Reilly and Woodward? These guys a little too tough for your big brave hero?

Kerry is as phony as a $3. bill, and you're too blind with your hatred for Bush to see it. May you and your blind guide Kerry both fall into the ditch together. You deserve each other!

Boxcar

[Secretariat]

Boxcar,

>So...going by your twisted logic...just because I wasn't in 'Nam that makes me somewhat less of a man >than the lying slimebucket you adore? The guy lucked out big time. For three little scratches, requiring >nothing more than bandaids, if that, he gets 3 PHs and a quick ticket back home.

Your above statement reveals your ignorance about war.

>If this traitor doesn't have anything to hide, and he's so big, bad and brave, then why doesn't he sign off on >his 180 and release all his records?

I’ve posted the link previously to his site where you can review them.

>And if this gutless wonder is so big, bad and brave, why won't he release his senate intelligence >attendance records? Maybe because he's the #1 Slacker in the Senate?

You got to be kidding. Mr. Crawford Texas has been AWOL for most of his Presidency. So you attack Kerry because he’s campaigning.?

>And if this self-proclaimed hero is so big, bad and brave, why did he refuse interviews with O'Reilly and >Woodward? These guys a little too tough for your big brave hero?

Who would want to do an interview with a sexual harasser? Woodward doesn’t have a show?

>Kerry is as phony as a $3. bill, and you're too blind with your hatred for Bush to see it. May you and your >blind guide Kerry both fall into the ditch together. You deserve each other!

I am seeing Bush with 20/20 vision, and I see his gutlessness quite clearly. That’s the problem.

[sq764]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Boxcar,

>So...going by your twisted logic...just because I wasn't in 'Nam that makes me somewhat less of a man >than the lying slimebucket you adore? The guy lucked out big time. For three little scratches, requiring >nothing more than bandaids, if that, he gets 3 PHs and a quick ticket back home.

Your above statement reveals your ignorance about war.

>If this traitor doesn't have anything to hide, and he's so big, bad and brave, then why doesn't he sign off on >his 180 and release all his records?

I’ve posted the link previously to his site where you can review them.

>And if this gutless wonder is so big, bad and brave, why won't he release his senate intelligence >attendance records? Maybe because he's the #1 Slacker in the Senate?

You got to be kidding. Mr. Crawford Texas has been AWOL for most of his Presidency. So you attack Kerry because he’s campaigning.?

>And if this self-proclaimed hero is so big, bad and brave, why did he refuse interviews with O'Reilly and >Woodward? These guys a little too tough for your big brave hero?

Who would want to do an interview with a sexual harasser? Woodward doesn’t have a show?

>Kerry is as phony as a $3. bill, and you're too blind with your hatred for Bush to see it. May you and your >blind guide Kerry both fall into the ditch together. You deserve each other!

I am seeing Bush with 20/20 vision, and I see his gutlessness quite clearly. That’s the problem.

Come on Sec.. I am not an OReilly fan by any means, but is that really the best excuse you have for Kerry not being on his show?

What 'hard news' shows has Kerry participated in? seriesly (John Stewart doesn't count)

[Equineer]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You offer no research, no analysis. Just partisan baloney mixed in with long windedness masking itself as intelligence.

I've been reading this same song and dance since 2001, since before VetScratch....another incarnation, whom you're probably "related" to as well.

Cut the bullshit. I'm flattered... what better endorsement! :)

As others have noted about neo-cons here, when the truth stings, attacking the messenger is always the response.

Readers make their own judgments about contributions... all serious posts stand on their own merit.

There is no fault in criticizing me or others, but where are your meat and potatoes?

Your plate is empty when all you can do is make negative remarks about posters instead of engage in debates.

Editorial opinions without supporting arguments amount to nothing more than sound and fury.

[JustRalph]

Here is some info about kerry and the missing records.......

Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge
Dated: Wednesday, October 13 2004 @ 07:00 AM PDT
Viewed: 12654 times
-- by Thomas Lipscomb
An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves" opens a door on a well kept secret about his military service.

The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration's secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry's discharge as being subsequent to the review of "a board of officers." This in it self is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.

According to the secretary of the Navy's document, the "authority of reference" this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry's record was "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163. "This section refers to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry's involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn't have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all. The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry's status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been no response to that inquiry.

The document is dated February 16, 1978. But Mr. Kerry's military commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966. His commitment should have terminated in 1972. It is highly unlikely that either the man who at that time was a Vietnam Veterans Against the War leader, John Kerry, requested or the Navy accepted an additional six year reserve commitment. And the Claytor document indicates proceedings to reverse a less than honorable discharge that took place sometime prior to February 1978.

The most routine time for Mr. Kerry's discharge would have been at the end of his six-year obligation, in 1972. But how was it most likely to have come about?

NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr. Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September 1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy, was easier than finding "dirt."

For example, while America was still at war, Mr. Kerry had met with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegation to the Paris Peace talks in May 1970 and then held a demonstration in July 1971 in Washington to try to get Congress to accept the enemy's seven point peace proposal without a single change. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs, a former presidential candidate, in prison just for demonstrating for peace negotiations with Germany during World War I. No court overturned his imprisonment. He had to receive a pardon from President Harding.

Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received a less than honorable discharge."

The "board of officers" review reported in the Claytor document is even more extraordinary because it came about "by direction of the President." No normal honorable discharge requires the direction of the president. The president at that time was James Carter. This adds another twist to the story of Mr. Kerry's hidden military records.

Mr. Carter's first act as president was a general amnesty for draft dodgers and other war protesters. Less than an hour after his inauguration on January 21, 1977, while still in the Capitol building, Mr. Carter signed Executive Order 4483 empowering it. By the time it became a directive from the Defense Department in March 1977 it had been expanded to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct, dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records. In those cases the directive outlined a procedure for appeal on a case by case basis before a board of officers. A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or an honorable discharge.

Mr. Kerry has repeatedly refused to sign Standard Form 180, which would allow the release of all his military records. And some of his various spokesmen have claimed that all his records are already posted on his Web site. But the Washington Post already noted that the Naval Personnel Office admitted that they were still withholding about 100 pages of files.

If Mr. Kerry was the victim of a Nixon "enemies list" hit, one might have expected him to wear it like a badge of honor, like many others such as his friend Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, CBS's Daniel Schorr, or the actor Paul Newman, who had made Mr. Colson's original list of 20 "enemies."

There are a number of categories of discharges besides honorable. There are general discharges, medical discharges, bad conduct discharges, as well as other than honorable and dishonorable discharges. There is one odd coincidence that gives some weight to the possibility that Mr. Kerry was dishonorably discharged. Mr. Kerry has claimed that he lost his medal certificates and that is why he asked that they be reissued. But when a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and all medals and honors are revoked as well. And five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr. Kerry's medals were reissued.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Equineer
I'm flattered... what better endorsement! :)

As others have noted about neo-cons here, when the truth stings, attacking the messenger is always the response.

Readers make their own judgments about contributions... all serious posts stand on their own merit.

There is no fault in criticizing me or others, but where are your meat and potatoes?

Your plate is empty when all you can do is make negative remarks about posters instead of engage in debates.

Editorial opinions without supporting arguments amount to nothing more than sound and fury.


Ahhhh, the important distinction in this case being that *I* don't come on here and attempt to preach at every turn.

Yes, I may respond to posts made, but I rarely preach. You preach in almost every post you make, trying in vain to convert the masses to your side of the fence.

Therein lies the difference, and therein lies the reason why I require nothing but editorial opinion. Supporting arguments may or may not arrive at my choosing. I am not trying to convert anyone. I don't really care who you vote for.

But, I won't stand idly by while you lie, scratch and claw your way to towards another fantasy convert.

Truth be told, you and your bretheren have wasted your time here all these many months. All will be for naught come Tuesday night.

[Equineer]

PA,

You question preaching? Post after post after post, ad nauseum, consist of pro or con opinions on candidates and issues.

As the board sponsor, you seem to have the customary roles of forum moderator and posters juxtaposed.

Unless, that is, you never meant Off Topics to be a discussion forum.

Elsewhere, boards open forums, and posters expect that a forum moderator may have a perspective, or even an agenda. However, since the purpose is discussion and debate, it is the posters who don't care what the moderator's position is, while the moderator may certainly choose to debate but should enforce the posted rules concerning vulgar language, legal breeches, and commercial solicitations.

When you simply post:

"You offer no research, no analysis. Just partisan baloney mixed in with long windedness masking itself as intelligence,"

or

"But, I won't stand idly by while you lie, scratch and claw your way to towards another fantasy convert,"

you certainly aren't debating, so what is your purpose?

I am one of the least likely targets if you are monitoring language, legalities, and commercialism. But you already know that. Why don't you take a whack at reasonably debating against whatever you mean by "baloney" or "lies?"

When all you have to offer is partisan invective, as Bush would say, "you can run, but you can't hide!"

Readers aren't dumb. Rather than debate, you moderate to further your agenda and substitute invective for moderation.

[boxcar]

Secretariat wrote:

I wrote:

So...going by your twisted logic...just because I wasn't in 'Nam that makes me somewhat less of a man >than the lying slimebucket you adore? The guy lucked out big time. For three little scratches, requiring >nothing more than bandaids, if that, he gets 3 PHs and a quick ticket back home.

Your above statement reveals your ignorance about war.

Yeah...I may be ignorant about war, but not about human nature nor am I a bad judge of character. If I had been in 'Nam, I wouldn't have been walking around with a video camera slung over my shoulder looking for photo ops. Nor would it have ever occurred to me to plot and scheme my way out of serving on the basis of three tiny, insignificant, nothing wounds. And most especially, I wouldn't have betrayed my brothers-in-arms and in POW camps by putting them unnecessarily in harm's way after my discharge with grossly exagerated antiwar rhetoric, which provided and comfort to the Communist North and fueled their propaganda effort.

>If this traitor doesn't have anything to hide, and he's so big, bad and brave, then why doesn't he sign off on >his 180 and release all his records?

I’ve posted the link previously to his site where you can review them.

You pathetic, lying, steaming pile of cow pies. You know fully well, that Kerry has not signed off on his 180. I know he has posted some of his records -- those records which he wants us to see, but not those records that he doesn't want us to see. So again, if this big, bad, brave hero of yours has nothing to hide, why hasn't he signed off on his 180?

In fact, if this big, bad, brave hero of yours has nothing to hide, why hasn't he released his medical records?

>And if this gutless wonder is so big, bad and brave, why won't he release his senate intelligence >attendance records? Maybe because he's the #1 Slacker in the Senate?

You got to be kidding. Mr. Crawford Texas has been AWOL for most of his Presidency. So you attack Kerry because he’s campaigning.?

I thought we were discussing Kerry's character (or more apprropriately his lack thereof!) and his records here. Why do you bring a straw man into the discussion by bringing up Bush? Bush can't get Kerry's records released.

Moreover, you moron, it is because he's campaigning that the public should find out as much as possible about this candidate for whom you want everyone to elect.

Should we infer from your above stupid comment, that it's best not to question candidates? That it's best that the public be kept in the dark as much as possible? That it's far better for presidential candidates to cherry-pick what they want to the public to know, and the rest of it is best swept under the rug?

>And if this self-proclaimed hero is so big, bad and brave, why did he refuse interviews with O'Reilly and >Woodward? These guys a little too tough for your big brave hero?

Who would want to do an interview with a sexual harasser?

For how long now have you found ignorance to be so blissful? How long have you been basking in the depths of its darkness? Can you provide any proof to us that O'Reilly is a sexual harrasser? Have you heard the alleged tapes of which his accuser spoke? Are you at all aware of the fact that O'Reilly made a public statement on his Factor show a few nights ago? And that in that statement, he stated unequivocally that the entire matter had been dropped by both sides!?

And knowing all too well (and painfully, I might add) how a liberal mind works, permit me to head you off at the pass with your retort: If O'Reilly had reached a settlement out of court with his accuser, that kind of news would have been splattered all over the liberal rags and other mainstream media (as it was, for example, with Whacko Jacko's settlement). Someone (the gal's attorneys, for example) would have leaked something by now.

Woodward doesn’t have a show?

Are you asking me or telling me? You don't know who Woodward is? Have you ever heard of or have you ever READ the WASHINGTON POST? Woodward just happens to be one of this country's most famous and well known reporters. Got it now?

>Kerry is as phony as a $3. bill, and you're too blind with your hatred for Bush to see it. May you and your >blind guide Kerry both fall into the ditch together. You deserve each other!

I am seeing Bush with 20/20 vision, and I see his gutlessness quite clearly. That’s the problem.

Bush has more character in a strand of hair than Kerry has in his whole body! Bush released his military records; for if he hadn't that, too, would have been front page news. Bush interviewed with O'Reilly and took his questions. And Bush interviewed with Woodward the NEWSPAPER REPORTER (just in case you still don't get it) and answered his tough, penetrating, incisive questions.

Conversely, all your big, bad, brave hero Kerry has done during this campaign is lie and cover up, lie and cover up, lie and cover up. It was the DNC and his campaign that went around the country taking his book "The New Soldier" off the bookshelves because they didn't want the public to see what a commie-loving' sympathizer this antiwar activist was and still is!

And wasn't it your big, bad, brave hero (the great liberal advocate of free speech) who threatened lawsuits by an army of lawyers to stop the airing of "Stolen Honors"? He had nothing to hide, did he?

And finally, your last staement is very revealing. You know fully well that Kerry is morally bankrupt and is a big fat zero politically. He's accomplished virtually diddly squat in his 20 year career in the Senate. He's been AWOL from more senate intelligence meetings than he cares to remember. And this wanna-be-commander -in chief, this "retroactive genius" (to borrow Krauthammer's phrase) knows everything there is to know about fighting wars, for he has "promised" Americans that he'll fight a "smarter and more effective" war (from the comfort and safety of the Oval Office, of course). And what's even more remarkable, he's going to do this even though this war is a big "mistake" -- even though the war is all wrong every way imaginable -- even though he has insulted, demoralized and denigrated our troops, our allies, the Iraqi people and the interim Iraqi goverment in the process.

The reason your last remark is revealing is because it ended in a negative remark against Bush. And so...you're vote, in the final analysis, will not be "for" Kerry nearly as much as it will be "against" Bush. My observation therefore, stands: You're blinded by your rage...by your hate for Bush. And it's this hate that has blinded you as to what kind of a morally bankrupt character Kerry really is. And not only this: But Kerry is no more qualified to be president than the man in the moon. As stated previously, he's a big fat zero all the way around.

And in case you're wondering: I did state previously and honestly on this forum that my vote will be one that is more against Kerry than for Bush. But I was able to look at both guys objectively, and while Bush has made several blunders during his last four years, and while I would dearly love to see a real conservative in the WH, nonetheless when it comes to qualifications and character, Kerry can't hold a candle to Bush. After all, nearly everything is relative.

Boxcar

[cratman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7578-2004Oct28.html

Here is an article on the O'Reilly matter.

[JustRalph]

If being an accused Sex Harrasser means "no public interviews' then Bill Clinton is going to have a bunch of free time.

[Tom]

"Readers aren't dumb. Rather than debate, you moderate to further your agenda and substitute invective for moderation."

You got that right. Readers know what a classless bottom feeder you are. When are you going to post some more private messages and emails? Fact is, YOU are the lowlife with no sense on this board. Check out the number of members, then subtract the 9 or 10 that are YOU, and you tell me if you think they come here to read YOUR drivel and crap. We do just fine without you.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey vEtQuineer, please do this for me, cause I need a little entertainment today.

Please, please, PLEASE, describe to me, in agonizing detail (I know you're good at that) my AGENDA.

I'd love to know what my agenda is, as seen through your eyes.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Hey vEtQuineer, please do this for me, cause I need a little entertainment today.

Please, please, PLEASE, describe to me, in agonizing detail (I know you're good at that) my AGENDA.

I'd love to know what my agenda is, as seen through your eyes.

Jesus.....! It's another one of those "user" against the "moderator" trolls. These people have been around since the days of the early single telephone line 2400 baud modems.

I am sure somewhere back in the mid 1800's VetQuineer's gr-great grandfather was working as a telegraph operator and sending unwanted telegraph drivel to every morse code reader down the line............. Hey Vettie! Tap out a Smiley for me!

[Equineer]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I'd love to know what my agenda is, as seen through your eyes.Well, besides being a handicapper/player, I think you wear at least two other two hats:

Bouncer at the Club Neo-Con, and

D. Wayne Lukas Apologist.

I tend to agree with you on the latter, but you have less than 48 hours to abandon Bush and help save the nation! :)

[Equineer]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Jesus.....!Careful, JR... you claim to be atheist/agnostic, but you are also a gambler. Even at prohibitive odds, there is a chance that non-pious expletives might just tempt God to stop your disability checks! :) <your smiley, as requested>

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Equineer
Even at prohibitive odds, there is a chance that non-pious expletives might just tempt God to stop your disability checks! :) <your smiley, as requested>

I wish someone was sending me a check for staying at home.

I worked today........moved a client from one office to another. Six station network and all the trimmings...........on a Sunday!

You see..........tempting the hand of God...............

Lately I have started praying to Elvis..........

I find I get the same results as when I pray to God
http://www.elvis.com/images/mainpage/epe_mp_elvis03.jpg




that's a joke .........don't send me hate letters............

[First_Place]

Golly gee, look at all them warmongering chickenhawks (i.e. neo-CONS) in that list, especially that li'l rodent Paul Wolfowitz.

FP