Azeri in Classic

[Wiley]

http://bc.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=25042

[betchatoo]

I think it's a big mistake, I would be shocked if she can race with the big boys in this

[ceejay]

Damn. I don't think she would finish ITM in the Distaff wanted to beat her there!

[Bubbles]

What an idiot Paulson is...

[SAL]

Unanimous decision huh? One word: DORKS!!!

She won't make the superfecta.

[cj]

I give Azeri ZERO shot in the Classic.

That said, what does it matter? They don't need the purse money they MIGHT get in the Disaff, they probably have Older Female Champ wrapped up, and they are at least giving her a chance around a second turn this time. I didn't like them trying her in the Met because she was trying one turn mile AND going against colts. I can't really fault them trying though.

One thing we know for sure, Lukas and Paulson aren't looking at any type of speed figures to determine placement like a lot of the trainers do. If they did, no way she would be in this race.

[Valuist]

The Distaff has gotten a lot more interesting. She won't make the octafecta in the Classic.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally posted by cj
I give Azeri ZERO shot in the Classic.

She has no chance at winning this race and if she loses in the Classic no one will be suprised but if she were to lose the Distaff, which I thought she would? Who knows, its idiotic and degrading to a Mare that has had such a great career to send her out like this.

[Pace Cap'n]

Running in the Classic is not likely to do her in.

I guarantee you she has every bit the chance Volponi did.

And it certainly spices up what was looking to be a rather drab affair.

No way I'm predicting a win for her but it will be fun to watch and who knows?

Go AzerI!!!!!!!!!

[KirisClown]

Bad move, she should have gone for a 2nd Distaff.

If she can't hold on against Storm Flag Flying at 10F, how is she going to hold off a horse like Pleasantly Perfect?

[Speed Figure]

Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
Running in the Classic is not likely to do her in.

I guarantee you she has every bit the chance Volponi did.

And it certainly spices up what was looking to be a rather drab affair.

No way I'm predicting a win for her but it will be fun to watch and who knows?

Go AzerI!!!!!!!!!
I feel the same way. She's facing better horses than he did, but you never know.

[rrbauer]

Volponi ran a Beyer 116 when he won the Classic and he was not hard to use in that race given his proclivity to run big fresh, his good works and he caught a field that he could track from his inside post.

He also ran a 112 at 1 1/4m at Belmont and a 112 at 1 1/8m at Saratoga the following year.

Azeri, in my opinion, has distance limitations just running against her own sex. She ran a 112 at Oaklawn this year at 1 1/16m, her best and she was fresh; a 106 at Saratoga going 1 1/8m and a 97 at Saratoga going 1 1/4m.

Coming back in 20 days at 1 1/4m against males gives her three strikes before the race starts.

[Dancer's Image]

I agree with almost everyone in this thread that Azeri has no chance of winning the Classic.

That being said I admire Paulsen for taking the chance. Azeri deserves a shot at being called the greatest filly/mare to ever race against the boys! Because that's how she'll be remembered if she should do the impossible and actually win! I will be rooting for her with my heart, but not my wallet.

[keilan]

Pace Cap'n said

Running in the Classic is not likely to do her in.

I guarantee you she has every bit the chance Volponi did.

And it certainly spices up what was looking to be a rather drab affair.

No way I'm predicting a win for her but it will be fun to watch and who knows?

Go AzerI!!!!!!!!!

Pace Cap’n,

Let me tell you a quick story about the year Volponi won.

I received an email about 3 days before Breeders Cup Day. The message was brief and it said something to the effect -- Volponi is ready to run a huge race, the blinkers are going back on, make sure you use!!

Well I took that advice – I included him in both the p3 and p4 tickets and then did something that will live with me for a long time – I keyed him in the Superfecta for 2nd and 3rd only. I would have cashed the Super that day if I had keyed Volponi 1st on any of my tickets. In Canada it paid $166,000+. Yep his odds were too long for me to use in the top spot – another painful lesson.

The author of that email was rrbauer. One of the top two players I’ve known.

rrbauer didn't mention that he had used Volponi in his post but I can tell you that he had a very good day thanks to Volponi. Sorry for the loose lips tonight Rich but I've been sipping a little vino looking over this Saturday's line-up.

Here's part of another excellent piece of wagering advice he posted a few days back in the thread "figuring pick 3 odds" that most seemed to skip over --- pay attention to #2 in particular --it will serve every player well.


It's not easy, but it is "do-able". Two caveats gleaned from thousands of P3 plays:

1. Do not bet into small pools. They are unreliable where payoff estimates are concerned.

2. Do not put a price/value win bet proposition in the first leg at risk by stringing it out over two more races in P3 bets. Take the money now!


Pace Cap'n --- your guarantee might be a tad overstated. :) :)

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Originally posted by keilan
--- pay attention to #2 in particular --it will serve every player well.

2. Do not put a price/value win bet proposition in the first leg at risk by stringing it out over two more races in P3 bets. Take the money now!



Is there some rule somewhere that says it is illegal to bet to win AND play p-3's too? I must have missed that one.

Let's see......I like a 8-1 shot and in the next 2 races I hate both favorites and like three horses in each race to beat the favorite. I can't play pick-3's because I "have" to just bet win "to get the money now". Makes wonderful sense to follow that rule.:rolleyes:

Does anybody ever try to bet into all possible pools when they have a strong opinion? I guess it's a well kept secret that when you like a horse and have a decent opinion on the race, you should bet win, exactas, trifectas, superfectas, pick-3's, and pick-4's when possible.

[Pace Cap'n]

I will gladly concede your points from a handicapping standpoint, as you both have my utmost respect as handicappers.

It was a poor analogy on my part. Just trying to compare one longshot to another. Upsets do happen, but I agree the current one would be a lot less likely.

A software program I use on occaision also picked Volponi on top. And I didn't use him. It even had (If you chose to toss the favorite) the cold super for Sarava's Belmont and I didn't get any of that either. So, keilan, I can relate.

Anyway, as a racing fan, it doesn't bother me at all to see her run in the Classic. As a bettor, she won't be getting much, if any, of my money.

Thanks for the replies.

Steve

[keilan]

InsideThePylons-MW said


Is there some rule somewhere that says it is illegal to bet to win AND play p-3's too?

I must have missed that one. Let's see......I like a 8-1 shot and in the next 2 races I hate both favorites and like three horses in each race to beat the favorite. I can't play pick-3's because I "have" to just bet win "to get the money now". Makes wonderful sense to follow that rule.

Does anybody ever try to bet into all possible pools when they have a strong opinion? I guess it's a well kept secret that when you like a horse and have a decent opinion on the race, you should bet win, exactas, trifectas, superfectas, pick-3's, and pick-4's when possible.


Hey Pylons – where have you been? I’ve missed your sunny disposition

What you say goes without saying – hell yeah get involved in all the pools but don’t forget to take the W/P – exactor – tri’s and anything else available in this race. Make sure you don’t waste a bullet by taking a chance of being beat somewhere else. If you don’t get this part, I guess I over-estimated you.

The OTHER thread was about figuring pick 3 odds, did you take time to read the thread or did you just decide to dive in. :D :D

[Valuist]

Getting back to the original subject, who knows why Paulson wants the other race. As for Lukas, he already has a contender in the Distaff (Stellar Jayne). He probably has more loyalty to Spendthrift than he does to Paulson.

[keilan]

Pace Cap’n –concede nothing – I was just giving you the raspberries about your analogy. All in good fun.

They still gotta run the race :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Lukas had a front page article about him and Azeri in the DRF a few weeks ago. Reading the article, one came away with the 100% opinion that Lukas did NOT want to go in the Classic.

There was no doubt anyone who read that article would think that Lukas wanted to go in the Classic with Azeri. But he also said in the article that he will do WHATEVER Paulson, the owner, wants to do.

I don't agree with Azeri going in the Distaff, as I don't think she can win. I also didn't think the Yankees would lose 4 straight to the Red Sox, so what do I know?



PS. I also had Volponi.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
I agree with almost everyone in this thread that Azeri has no chance of winning the Classic.

That being said I admire Paulsen for taking the chance. Azeri deserves a shot at being called the greatest filly/mare to ever race against the boys!

Apparently the Met Mile wasn't good enough for you? How can you admire Paulson for sending the leading earnings mare of all time into a field where she will get drowned in her last career start?

[PaceAdvantage]

Now now....there were plenty of naysayers who said Azeri was finished after the Met Mile.....but she came back and beat the top mare out there, so let's not be too hasty and say she will be drowned.....

Before you know it, the "she's going to break down" posts are going to start up, and THEN what are we gonna do?

[PaceAdvantage]

Ahh, here's the link to the DRF article from a short time ago:

http://www.ntra.com/news.asp?type=bcnews&id=12531

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Originally posted by keilan
Hey Pylons – where have you been? I’ve missed your sunny disposition
The OTHER thread was about figuring pick 3 odds, did you take time to read the thread or did you just decide to dive in. :D :D

keilan,

Didn't see the other thread. Just stop in occassionally.

Been trying to play a few holes of golf or hit some range balls with the few moments of spare time I now have.

You know I have to chime in when I see narrow minded non-aggressive "rules" on how to bet the money.

It's almost time for my winter disposition.:D :eek:

[depalma13]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Lukas had a front page article about him and Azeri in the DRF a few weeks ago. Reading the article, one came away with the 100% opinion that Lukas did NOT want to go in the Classic.

There was no doubt anyone who read that article would think that Lukas wanted to go in the Classic with Azeri. But he also said in the article that he will do WHATEVER Paulson, the owner, wants to do.

I don't agree with Azeri going in the Distaff, as I don't think she can win. I also didn't think the Yankees would lose 4 straight to the Red Sox, so what do I know?



PS. I also had Volponi.

I think that article in the DRF was a ploy to keep Sightseek out of the Distaff. When she wasn't pre-entered, Azeri was a lock for the Classic.

[rrbauer]

InsideThePylons wrote:



"Is there some rule somewhere that says it is illegal to bet to win AND play p-3's too? I must have missed that one."

Comment:
There is no rule. There was no rule inferred. It was a simple suggestion based upon what experience has taught me.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Now now....there were plenty of naysayers who said Azeri was finished after the Met Mile.....but she came back and beat the top mare out there, so let's not be too hasty and say she will be drowned.....

Before you know it, the "she's going to break down" posts are going to start up, and THEN what are we gonna do?

I think the "breakdown" posts have run their course. Paulsen obviously knows that is a risk with every horse that runs. And the talk from Laura De Seroux about an injury has been put to bed. I just don't understand what he is trying to prove? I read the article and thought for sure that Lukas was hinting that there was no way she would run in the classic. I guess Paulsen is in for the greatest glory or nothing at all. It will be a damn shame if this really is her last race and she finishes up the track..........

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by elysiantraveller
Apparently the Met Mile wasn't good enough for you? How can you admire Paulson for sending the leading earnings mare of all time into a field where she will get drowned in her last career start?
Winning the Distaf again for her would be the iceing on the cake, If she wins the classic these guys will be heros..You cant win if you dont try..I do hope she does well

[KingChas]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Now now....there were plenty of naysayers who said Azeri was finished after the Met Mile.....but she came back and beat the top mare out there, so let's not be too hasty and say she will be drowned.....

Before you know it, the "she's going to break down" posts are going to start up, and THEN what are we gonna do?

She will be near the front for a short while,then when the real running begins she will stagger home again against the boys like has been proven before.I would love to book her bets.No direspect to the champion LADY!

Last time I said she staggered PA said she passed every one after the the finish this time I hope she doesn't pass out.I love the way DWL covers his ass on running her in the classic "She's in the best shape Humanly possible"-How bout horseracing possible?

[BIG RED]

Came right to the end, didn't read prior. Azeri should not be here. LS will be hard, even after all the rain, will not soften. Nice horse but not great, throw out!

[freeneasy]

paulson: d-man, if we run azeri in the classic i cant see how she can lose, being that she'll be the best mare in the race.

lucas: kiss, kiss, ahh excellent observation al, excellent, kiss, kiss.

paulson: yeah d and not only that but since everyone was expecting us to scratch we now have the element of suprise, see no one was expecting us to pull a double triple thunder blunder by keeping her in a race where she'l have to take on
12 of the best proven males in the country
at an unproven distance of a mile and a quarter,
where theres going to be no lead to speak of and
no room to breath, and
all that on only 20 days or so of a much needed rest.

lucas: kiss, kiss, genius boss, shear genius. now i know why your da boss and iam just the dumb ass whipping boy.

paulson: yeah, do ya see it d? do you see the strategy now?

lucas: kiss, kiss, i sure do boss, i see your strategy as plain as my nose in your ass. throw her to the wolves once more and hope that this time she stays in tact juuust long enough to outrun em and keep her ass from getting schredded to pieces. brillient boss, just brillient. kiss, kiss, kiss. (and this time with lipstick)
cant win if you dont try is true but theres no sense in trying if you cant win. obviously they think they can but i say its two jerks whose reality is marred with inadiquate reasoning.
azeri might be able to run but she sure wont be able to hide. and when she gets beaten they should have a speacial losers circle ready for lukas and paulson so's them two can get together and their pictures taken while wking each other off. and if she wins another race after this then its just going to be a testimony to her true desire to lead.
this is a great horse in a great race and the only testimony shes going to have when this race is over is " the trainer made me do it" and "the owner made me do it". cause this aint the kinda race where "you gotta believe"

[depalma13]

Azeri sits in 4th 3-5 lengths behind Roses in May, Ghostzapper, and Funny Cide. By the Mile pole, Roses in May checks out (the extra weight will become an anchor he won't overcome). A few strides later, A rank Funny Cide finally succumbs. That leaves Azeri chasing a tiring Ghostzapper. At the eighth pole, they are even, Azeri slowly taking command. Dynever, Pleasantly Perfect and Perfect Drift loom large. One of the three get her in the final strides and the other two round out the superfecta.

She looks spectacular on the track, training better than any other horse on the grounds, other than Kitten's Joy. With a little racing luck, I believe that is the way this race unfolds.

Pat Day almost lost the mount because of his ride in the Personal Ensign, where she ran 3/4's in 109 3/5. A time that would compromise every single one of thes males on a two turn course. Her last race was a workout. As Pat Day said, he had Tamweel any time he wanted her. That race was a lesson. The Classic was their plan the whole year. Lucas has her ready for the best effort of her career.

[SAL]

You're dreaming. Azeri drops off sooner than that and finishes in the bottom third of the field at the wire.

And Lukas and Paulsen are proven to be idiots once more.

[PaceAdvantage]

More often than not, females run better than most expect in the big races....I'm not saying she is going to win, and I wouldn't have run her in this spot, but I think she easily finishes in the top half of the field....

I wouldn't be shocked at a money spot.....

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, after taking my first look at the PPs, I can understand why Paulson wants to go in this race....it's not that tough....

The only horses who are clearly superior off the Beyers are Ghostzapper and Roses in May, and even Roses in May might not be all that better than Azeri on her BEST day.

I'm talking about Azeri running a TOP effort. If she runs a top effort, she is in the money no problem. If Ghostzapper throws in a clunker, and Roses In May gets burned early, who is so much more superior than Azeri that she can't be considered a contender under that scenario?

Perfect Drift can't buy a win, and his last two figs can be matched by Azeri....Birdstone can be beaten by Azeri on her best day if he doesn't improve much...same with Funny Cide, who we all know doesn't like to win all that often....Newfoundland is about equal to Azeri....Bowman's Band has been running sub par lately....Pleasantly Perfect has one big scary Beyer, but THAT'S IT, so he's beatable, and Dynever is....well....he's Dynever, and we all know he's beatable.

So, with all that said, at first glance, a case can easily be made for Azeri running in the money with a top effort....and if someone stubs their toe, she just might win.....it's a longshot, but I now know why Paulson is taking the plunge....

I hope he pulls it off....

[SAL]

See, that's just it PA. She needs about half the field to run a sub-par race just to be considered for the exotics. I just don't see that happening in this race. I still say she has no shot.

[depalma13]

Originally posted by SAL
You're dreaming.


You're right, it's going to be very tough to get both Dynever and Perfect Drift into the superfecta. ;)

[freeneasy]

but like sal was saying and i was going to say something to just that effect, and that is in order for azeri to win this race, its just going to have to depend, and i think the key word here is depend, on to much and to many things to fall, happen and go her way. azeri needs a combinations of to many things to take place in order for her to win this race. if every horse in this race is ready for bear including azeri then she should find herself on the back end of the best effort of her carreer.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course. She needs to match and probably surpass her career high, and Ghostzapper and Roses in May have to throw in clunkers, along with another horse most likely.

But that doesn't mean she doesn't belong. She fits in this spot. Best mare in training, best mare to race in the past few years....why not? If she doesn't fit, what does that say for a bunch of others in this race, who really have no shot?

[PaceAdvantage]

She doesn't like the rail, isn't that what they said after the Met Mile? What does Pat Day do? He puts her on the rail....

What are people saying about Lone Star today?? Dead Rail? He puts her on the rail.

What did Javier Castellano do immediately? He got OFF the rail.

Despite all that, Azeri certainly doesn't disgrace herself, and most certainly would have had a higher placing, although some will probably argue that she had a dream trip behind the pace saving all the ground....

Whatever..point is, she belonged in the race. She beat Birdstone, the mighty 3yo champ (NOT)...she beat Funny Cide, the darling and JOCKEY CLUB GOLD CUP WINNER...LOL

She beat everyone except those we thought she'd have a tough time beating...the best four in the race.....

Not too shabby....and certainly much better than bottom third of the field, as most were predicting....

Hey, Bobby Frankel came real close to eating some heavy duty crow, as he said in that BloodHorse article "If Azeri finishes first second or third, she deserves HORSE OF THE YEAR"

LOL

[SAL]

I dunno, I don't think Lukas and Paulsen entered her on hopes of beating half the field. So she outfinished some runners. So what? the fact remains that she was beaten at least 10 lengths and didn't look like a threat at any point of the race. She did NOT belong in this race, sorry.

[OTM Al]

5th in that field was better than I thought she'd get. Good show by her, best that could be expected, but still not where she belonged

[Zaf]

She did better than I thought, but I agree Big Deal.

ZAFONIC

[RXB]

Yeah, Day put her on the rail. She missed the start by a length, and if he doesn't go to the inside she's stuck behind a wall of horses. The inside had nothing to do with her not being in the money; she had a clean trip and just isn't fast enough.

I've been a huge Azeri admirer from the very start of her career, but she was never good enough to beat the very best male horses.

[Zaf]

Don't get me wrong , I love Azeri, Its the connections I don't like :mad:

ZAFONIC

[RXB]

One other point: if there was a "dead rail" then how did Ashado and Speightstown win so convincingly?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by SAL
I dunno, I don't think Lukas and Paulsen entered her on hopes of beating half the field. So she outfinished some runners. So what? the fact remains that she was beaten at least 10 lengths and didn't look like a threat at any point of the race. She did NOT belong in this race, sorry.

Some runners? She outfinished 8 runners, which is over 60% of the field...a far cry from the bottom third.

She did not belong eh? She was two lengths behind Perfect Drift and less than 3 lengths behind last year's BC CLassic winner.....

She most certainly belonged. If the grand wizard Bobby Frankel says "if she finishes first second or third, she should be HOY", what is 2 3/4 lengths out of HOY mean now?

[PaceAdvantage]

I give up. Paulson should be shot. Azeri stinks. She should have just stayed in California and kept beating up on the same runners again and again, just like she did the whole first part of her career. Where's the glory in that?

They criticize Azeri when she's managed ultra-conservatively, and they criticize her when they take risks.

Hopefully, they retire her now so I don't have to get so worked up about this anymore.

[Zaf]

She's a great horse. I don't think anybody would question that. It's nice that she was around as long as she was. Unlike these other Duckers.

ZAFONIC

[so.cal.fan]

"What an idiot Paulson is..."

Greedy fool comes to mind as well.
Most horsemen and fans I know here in So. California share your opinion of him Bubbles.

That wonderful mare ran her heart out, we can only hope she is not injured or has lost her spirit.

Shame on Paulson.........:mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

so.cal.fan, I have always respected your opinion, and I agree with you often. But on this point, I can't come to terms.

They were saying the same thing after the Met Mile. Yet, she came right back and beat Sightseek (where was Sightseek on Saturday)?

Owners and trainers take shots all the time. Why bust on these two for doing the same?

It made the whole day and the race itself that much more interesting, and Azeri certainly didn't disgrace herself out there.

When all is said and done, Azeri's finish shuts up all those who had her finishing last, or third from last, or breaking down, which is what they always like to say.....and proved she belonged in the race.

People can say she didn't belong until they're blue in the face, but Azeri's race today proved she DOES belong at that level. So I suggest all the naysayers just admit you're wrong. If you can't, then I want you to all start bashing Funny Cide and Birdstone the same way, if and when they should enter another Grade 1 race.

[so.cal.fan]

We just know this guy, Paulson, Mike, and he is not a very nice man.
We love Azeri, always have. She's a fine mare.

[SAL]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage

People can say she didn't belong until they're blue in the face, but Azeri's race today proved she DOES belong at that level. So I suggest all the naysayers just admit you're wrong. If you can't, then I want you to all start bashing Funny Cide and Birdstone the same way, if and when they should enter another Grade 1 race.

Admit we're wrong? Beating some runners in the race is not the same as winning the race. I feel that she did not have a chance to win this race. Period. It's about beating all the runners, not 60%.

Don't get me wrong, I have bet females against males many times (and cashed). But Azeri had no business in this race and I will never be convinced otherwise.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by SAL
Admit we're wrong? Beating some runners in the race is not the same as winning the race. I feel that she did not have a chance to win this race. Period. It's about beating all the runners, not 60%.

Yes, admit you're wrong when you said she doesn't belong. BELONGING in the race is not the SAME as saying she's a likely WINNER of the race. I didn't think Funny Cide had much a shot at all to win this race, but I think he BELONGED. Nobody was ragging on his connections, but he got beat by Azeri.

I didn't think Birdstone had much of a chance to win against the older horses, but of course he BELONGED in the race. Nobody would dare give Zito crap about taking a shot, and he got beat by Azeri as well.

So tell me again she did not belong.

[SAL]

PA, I'll admit I'm wrong when you can give me a reasonable explanation of how a horse belongs in a race when he/she has no chance of winning it.

[Observer]

Originally posted by SAL
give me a reasonable explanation of how a horse belongs in a race when he/she has no chance of winning it.

This is racing, and anything can happen. With the attitude of entering a race only if you can win, then field sizes would be even smaller. Look at all the longshots that won on the BC card. If that isn't reason enough, I don't know what is.

Wilko - yeah, lots of people were clammering that he had a shot at winning the Juvenile!

:rolleyes:

[SAL]

Observer, I can see your point about field sizes. Maybe I just have negative view of it because of my dislike for DWL. I think Azeri should have run in the distaff, and running in the classic was a poor decision.

As for Wilko, the horse had never run on the dirt before, so his ability was an unknown factor. His winning the race was not that big a shock to me, even at 28-1. To me, 15-1 was an underlay on Azeri.

What the hell do I know, Lukas got Cat Thief to win the classic a few years ago, and I still can't figure out how he pulled that off.

[keilan]

PA,

You’re right about this but you already know that. If race secretaries were only going to write races where every horse had a legitimate shot at winning the fields would only be about 4 or 5 horses long.

It’s a bullshit argument that Azeri shouldn’t run in the classic because she had little chance of winning. There were probably 6 or more horses in the race today that I would have booked bets against them winning.

Really who gives a rats-ass where Paulson runs his mare, he pays the bills and he gets to decide, it’s really that simple.

The part I can’t figure is why, any player would agonises over Azeri running in perhaps the most prestigious race available to her at this stage of her career.

p.s. Observer – I happen to know a few players that had Wilko on their tickets today.

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by zafonic
Don't get me wrong , I love Azeri, Its the connections I don't like :mad:

ZAFONIC

At least you're honest, Zafonic....that is precisely what this thread is all about. You and everyone else here who won't acknowledge that Azeri did belong in the Classic, for some reason (and admittedly Lukas and Paulson are easy to dislike) you don't like Azeri's connections and thus you have sacrificed all objectivity and impartiality in this discussion. How anyone could watch that race today and still try and say that Azeri did not belong in the Classic is beyond me. I was watching the race today and thinking to myself that there will be many guys posting tonight that they were wrong about Azeri not belonging in the Classic. Well, I was wrong....you Azeri/Lukas/Paulson bashers are too proud, too immature to admit when you are wrong. And the funny thing is we have it all in black and white and color...your posts, and Azeri's race on tape. I have the utmost respect for Azeri and Lukas and Paulson tonight, and little for you guys who can't admit when you're wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

This will probably be one of my last posts in this thread, because I think everything that needs to be said has been said (at least by me! ;) )

My potential last parting thought is this:

The single worst mistake team Paulson / Lukas has made with Azeri to date is switching jockeys from Mike Smith to Pat Day.

I'm not saying Smith is a better jockey overall, I'm just saying he's a better jockey for Azeri, and there was absolutely NO reason (except for personality clashes of whatever kind) to mess with that chemistry.

[Zaf]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
At least you're honest, Zafonic....that is precisely what this thread is all about. You and everyone else here who won't acknowledge that Azeri did belong in the Classic, for some reason (and admittedly Lukas and Paulson are easy to dislike) you don't like Azeri's connections and thus you have sacrificed all objectivity and impartiality in this discussion. How anyone could watch that race today and still try and say that Azeri did not belong in the Classic is beyond me. I was watching the race today and thinking to myself that there will be many guys posting tonight that they were wrong about Azeri not belonging in the Classic. Well, I was wrong....you Azeri/Lukas/Paulson bashers are too proud, too immature to admit when you are wrong. And the funny thing is we have it all in black and white and color...your posts, and Azeri's race on tape. I have the utmost respect for Azeri and Lukas and Paulson tonight, and little for you guys who can't admit when you're wrong.

OK, I'll admit , I believe she did belong in the race. I did not believe she had any shot to win. She did better than I thought she would. I am happy for that. I did not want to see her get buried.

In most typical 12 horse fields , I suppose you could say the bottom few contenders do not belong in the race. I'm sure this happens every day. She definately was not a bottom feeder in the classic field.

So, I'll say Azeri has certainly had done enough in her carrer to belong in the classic. Belong Yes, Chance to win , ????

ZAFONIC

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Winning the Distaf again for her would be the iceing on the cake, If she wins the classic these guys will be heros..You cant win if you dont try..I do hope she does well

Have to say I was excited for this filly before I saw the interview about why this filly changed hands..The lady trainer said the filly had something wrong with her tendon..Paulson sitting in his car said there was nothing wrong..Shows me this is a man with horses not a horseman..Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer..She is the one who deserves the credit for how this flly turned out. Maybe the lady was right in saying something was wrong...Obviously something is wrong. That said I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money. I also think with Paulson's attitude if D Wayne had disagreed on this race..We may have had another trainer on the program for the breeders cup

[Zaf]

Yes, she definately would of won the Distaff.

The Beyer Par for the Classic is 115.

Previous Winners have Posted :

2003 : 119
2002 : 116
2001 : 117
2000 : 116
1999 : 118
1998 : 116
1997 : 120
1996 : 115
1995 : 117
1994 : 115
1993 : 114
1992 : 114
1991 : 120
1990 : 116
1989 : 124
1988 : 122

At this stage in her carreer , she is not capable of running a number like this. The figs don't lie. Jeez I'm starting to sound like Andy Beyer. :eek:

ZAFONIC

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Have to say I was excited for this filly before I saw the interview about why this filly changed hands..The lady trainer said the filly had something wrong with her tendon..Paulson sitting in his car said there was nothing wrong..Shows me this is a man with horses not a horseman..Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer..She is the one who deserves the credit for how this flly turned out. Maybe the lady was right in saying something was wrong...Obviously something is wrong. That said I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money. I also think with Paulson's attitude if D Wayne had disagreed on this race..We may have had another trainer on the program for the breeders cup


McSchell,
You must not have had your coffee yet this AM...I'm having trouble finding the logic in your post.
First, how does Paulson sitting in his car saying there is nothing wrong with Azeri, show you that he's not a horseman? I mean Paulson never claimed to be a trainer; he's the owner; when "the lady trainer" (as you like to call Laura De Seroux) told the owner that there was something wrong with Azeri, the owner, Paulson, sent Azeri to 2 of the finest equine veterinary clinics in this country for second and third opinions, and it was after they cleared Azeri to run again, that Paulson changed trainers.
Second, D Wayne Lukas did disagree with Paulson on whether Azeri should race in the Classic. He was interviewed, and the article was in the DRF about 3 weeks ago, saying that he thought Azeri should pass up the Classic and race in the Distaff, but that he would do whatever the owner wished. There is no "may" about it; we "would" have had another trainer on the program if D. Wayne didn't accede to the owner's wishes. But isn't that the way it's supposed to be? Does the trainer not work for the owner? I guess I could envision some cases where an owner gave a horse to a trainer and said, "Do whatever you feel is best with this horse". But if I owned a horse, although I would certainly value the trainer's input, I would expect, nay, I would demand that the trainer follow my orders/wishes! Paulson listened to his "lady trainer" two years ago, when she talked him out of running Azeri against the boys, and he has regretted it ever since. In retrospect, which of course is always 20/20, Azeri should have raced against the boys in 2002 (the San Diego or the Whitney?), and then if she had lost, there wouldn't be any question about her running in this year's Classic.
And lastly, "filly hasn't really done anything since she left the lady trainer"....??? I threw my form away from yesterday. but I do recall seeing a couple of wins there in her PP's since Lukas/Day have been aboard.

[depalma13]

Originally posted by SAL
Admit we're wrong? Beating some runners in the race is not the same as winning the race. I feel that she did not have a chance to win this race. Period. It's about beating all the runners, not 60%.

Don't get me wrong, I have bet females against males many times (and cashed). But Azeri had no business in this race and I will never be convinced otherwise.

Azeri was in that race to cement her status as an all time great mare. Whether she won or not was secondary (except to gamblers). Would they have loved to win, of course they would have, but if you think winning is the only thing that matters in this case you are way off.

What mattered was if she could compete with the best horses in the world at the American Classic Distance. She proved yesterday she could. Top five in the most difficult open race in North America is a great accomplishment for any horse. Top five for a mare is legendary. Especially when you consider it was the fastest Classic in the events 21 year history. She ran the mile and a quarter in 2:01 flat.

Look at it this way. If you had a daughter and she was a world class sprinter and she had the opportunity to run against 12 of the best male sprinters in the world for Olympic Gold in the 200 meter dash. Would you tell her it was a mistake because she couldn't beat them? Would you tell her she was better off running in the 100 meters against her gender because she had always been succesful doing that. If she then went out and ran against the men and came back with a fifth place finish would you tell her she failed? Would her Gold medal against females be more of an achievement then a fifth against the opposite sex. In essence, that is what Azeri did yesterday.

She did what you and many others couldn't believe she could do. She finished ahead of horses that people didn't think she could beat. She finished just a few lengths behind the defending race champion, and most accomplished Classic Distance horse in the race. She most certainly belonged with that group yesterday.

[Observer]

Originally posted by keilan
Observer – I happen to know a few players that had Wilko on their tickets today.

Okay, so maybe Wilko wasn't the best example .. but the point was .. they shipped this horse at their own expense from England for a "shot" on an unknown surface. Yeah, at the odds he was going off at, he was certainly worth using because of his pedigree, and because of his unknown quality. I'm sure there were various people who had the various longshots on the BC card.

But the arguement was, horses should only be entered in places where they had a shot at winning .. in the case of Wilko, it could be argued his connections were hoping for a win, not necessarily believing they were going to win.

From the betting standpoint, someone somewhere is always going to have the longshot in any given race, but that's not what this arguement was about. And for the record .. I had Cat Thief when he won the Classic, and I felt he "belonged" in that spot and that he had a chance to win.

Honestly, though, this is all very silly the attention with when and where Azeri runs. No one wanted her to come back .. but despite having her worst record compiled this year, they've also been ambitious with her, and she's done some truly astounding things. For that, I am grateful they brought her back and gave more of America the opportunity to see her. I just don't like the lop-sidedness with regard to Azeri vs. every other horse. It wasn't good enough when she stayed on the same path against the same horses, but now it's not right that they're shipping her around with ambitious goals.

If people are going to be this concerned about Azeri, they need to be more concerned about a lot of the other horses that are racing at tracks all over the world, at all levels of the game.

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
..The lady trainer said the filly had something wrong with her tendon..Paulson sitting in his car said there was nothing wrong..Shows me this is a man with horses not a horseman..Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer..She is the one who deserves the credit for how this flly turned out. Maybe the lady was right in saying something was wrong...Obviously something is wrong.

Wow .. I don't know where to start on this one.

First of all, the "injury" was never confirmed by two of the top hospitals in the country .. both in Kentucky.

Second, "she hasn't really done anything since she left the lady trainer" .. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????

She's only won the Apple Blossom, Go For Wand and Spinster .. all Grade 1 races. Her Apple Blossom (first race for DWL) was absolutely spine-chilling, and her Go For Wand was absolutely breathtaking, displaying how brave she is, and her Spinster was a display of her pure talent. And even in defeat in the Personal Ensign, she was dazzling .. to go those fractions, and still be there at the end merits credit in my book.

Finally .. the "lady deserves credit for how this filly turned out" ... well, I guess it's been forgotten that Simon Bray had Azeri before "the lady" .. whose name by the way is Laura de Seroux.

[Observer]

Just wanted to add ... I think Azeri could have won the Humana Distaff with a better ride .. where she only missed by a head .. and that's another Grade 1.

And why was it acceptable that Sightseek hated Santa Anita, and thrived at Belmont, but it's been unacceptable that Azeri may actually not have cared for Belmont??!!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Observer
Okay, so maybe Wilko wasn't the best example .. but the point was .. they shipped this horse at their own expense from England for a "shot" on an unknown surface. Yeah, at the odds he was going off at, he was certainly worth using because of his pedigree, and because of his unknown quality. I'm sure there were various people who had the various longshots on the BC card.

But the arguement was, horses should only be entered in places where they had a shot at winning .. in the case of Wilko, it could be argued his connections were hoping for a win, not necessarily believing they were going to win.

From the betting standpoint, someone somewhere is always going to have the longshot in any given race, but that's not what this arguement was about. And for the record .. I had Cat Thief when he won the Classic, and I felt he "belonged" in that spot and that he had a chance to win.

Honestly, though, this is all very silly the attention with when and where Azeri runs. No one wanted her to come back .. but despite having her worst record compiled this year, they've also been ambitious with her, and she's done some truly astounding things. For that, I am grateful they brought her back and gave more of America the opportunity to see her. I just don't like the lop-sidedness with regard to Azeri vs. every other horse. It wasn't good enough when she stayed on the same path against the same horses, but now it's not right that they're shipping her around with ambitious goals.

If people are going to be this concerned about Azeri, they need to be more concerned about a lot of the other horses that are racing at tracks all over the world, at all levels of the game.

This is a nice filly, I never said I was concerned at where or when or how she ran!!.. All I did was listen to a interview on TV..Made the mistake of giving my opinion. Im just a horseman without a clue!

[Observer]

You said:

Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer

That's just completely ludicrous.

Oh, and I also forgot to mention that since Azeri left that "lady trainer" .. Azeri has become the North American Top Female Money Earner.

You can go ahead and give your opinion. Just as I can come up here and give some facts.

For a mare that has something so "obviously wrong" with her .. it's absolutely incredible, maybe even a series of major mircales, that she was able to win those Grade I events, and even not embarass herself in the BC Classic.

[freeneasy]

and approach this from 2 different level.
did she have a chance to win? yes, but only, only if a number of things went her way which would in effect cause the entire complextion of the race to change shape and thereby give her the advantages that it was going to take and the advantages that she was going to need to beat this field. this race did not have the look of giving azeri those possibilities. it was just going to be to much to hope for. so
did she have the right to win this race? with all things being equal, no.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Observer
You said:



That's just completely ludicrous.

Oh, and I also forgot to mention that since Azeri left that "lady trainer" .. Azeri has become the North American Top Female Money Earner.

You can go ahead and give your opinion. Just as I can come up here and give some facts.

For a mare that has something so "obviously wrong" with her .. it's absolutely incredible, maybe even a series of major mircales, that she was able to win those Grade I events, and even not embarass herself in the BC Classic.

This is really a confusing form,I never said anything was wrong, I JUST listened to a interview..Leading female horse under DWL..Thats great..I love the filly! AS for me being ignorant..not with the horseflesh sir just with the stats,

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
This is really a confusing form,I never said anything was wrong, I JUST listened to a interview..Leading female horse under DWL..Thats great..I love the filly! AS for me being ignorant..not with the horseflesh sir just with the stats,

McSchell.
This is a confusing thread, but it has been made so by your posts. Here you are denying that you said anything was wrong....now why would you deny that? You most certainly did say that in your post yesterday....here is the post...

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Have to say I was excited for this filly before I saw the interview about why this filly changed hands..The lady trainer said the filly had something wrong with her tendon..Paulson sitting in his car said there was nothing wrong..Shows me this is a man with horses not a horseman..Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer..She is the one who deserves the credit for how this flly turned out. Maybe the lady was right in saying something was wrong...Obviously something is wrong. That said I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money. I also think with Paulson's attitude if D Wayne had disagreed on this race..We may have had another trainer on the program for the breeders cup
------------------------------------------------------------------------




....your words specifically were, "Obviously something is wrong". Now I posted 3 points after your post that I disagreed with you on and you ignored them, but no problem, I'm a married man, I'm used to being ignored. But here's a 4th point that I just now noticed that I disagree with you about...you said, "I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money". First of all, Azeri was not humbled, she handled herself very well in the Classic. And second, if it was all about the money, Paulson could have entered her in the Distaff and taken the money. But he chose to try to accomplish something that was very unlikely, that is, to win the Classic, and I admire him for trying. Certainly, Azeri, with her stellar record over the years, had earned that right to try to beat the boys. She didn't win, but she was not humbled!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
McSchell.
This is a confusing thread, but it has been made so by your posts. Here you are denying that you said anything was wrong....now why would you deny that? You most certainly did say that in your post yesterday....here is the post...

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Have to say I was excited for this filly before I saw the interview about why this filly changed hands..The lady trainer said the filly had something wrong with her tendon..Paulson sitting in his car said there was nothing wrong..Shows me this is a man with horses not a horseman..Filly hasnt really done anthing since she left the lady trainer..She is the one who deserves the credit for how this flly turned out. Maybe the lady was right in saying something was wrong...Obviously something is wrong. That said I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money. I also think with Paulson's attitude if D Wayne had disagreed on this race..We may have had another trainer on the program for the breeders cup
------------------------------------------------------------------------




....your words specifically were, "Obviously something is wrong". Now I posted 3 points after your post that I disagreed with you on and you ignored them, but no problem, I'm a married man, I'm used to being ignored. But here's a 4th point that I just now noticed that I disagree with you about...you said, "I was very sorry to see a great filly like this humbled for the greed of money". First of all, Azeri was not humbled, she handled herself very well in the Classic. And second, if it was all about the money, Paulson could have entered her in the Distaff and taken the money. But he chose to try to accomplish something that was very unlikely, that is, to win the Classic, and I admire him for trying. Certainly, Azeri, with her stellar record over the years, had earned that right to try to beat the boys. She didn't win, but she was not humbled!

Dancer...I said the trainer said something was wrong...IN the interview!!!..Not me..Hell I havent even seen her!!...I love the filly!!..Thats why Paulson took her away because the old trainer wanted to give her time..

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Thats why Paulson took her away because the old trainer wanted to give her time..

No, the old trainer did not simply want to "give her time". Instead, de Seroux wanted Azeri retired, and had many people believing Azeri was retired, when in fact an official "retired" announcement was never made.

And there was much conflict over where Azeri was to race, especially in 2003. Paulson had his ideas, de Seroux had her ideas. Add to that Azeri's so-called "injury" that went unfounded by two top Kentucky hospitals, and you have major conflict. Bottom line here, Paulson is the owner, and Azeri is his horse.

If a trainer is going to cause conflict with the owner's wishes, it's no surprise the owner pulls the horses from that trainer.

[Observer]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
...AS for me being ignorant..not with the horseflesh sir just with the stats,

You need to show me exactly where I called you "ignorant". But you clearly are not familiar with the stats and actual storyline of Azeri.