Unbelievable/Joe Sharp Blackberry Wine

[jahura2]

5th at Oaklawn today. Joe Sharp trainee Blackberry Wine , already a 2 time winner at Fairgrounds wins an 87K MSW at the Arkansas track. The trick for Mr. Sharp is to have your 2 time winner disqualified due to an illegal dewormer BOTH TIMES, but still despite having won 2 races on the track be allowed to go somewhere else with his charge and take down an even bigger purse.
This is the second example of Sharp sending a previous winner up to OP after getting the purse taken away at Fairgrounds and winning a high price MSW at OP. See Sycamore Lane , Feb 15th at OP in the second race.
Something is seriously wrong here. I know technically these horses were still maidens but no suspensions or moratorium for Sharp horses and he gets to take down even bigger purses. Wow

[deelo]

5th at Oaklawn today. Joe Sharp trainee Blackberry Wine , already a 2 time winner at Fairgrounds wins an 87K MSW at the Arkansas track. The trick for Mr. Sharp is to have your 2 time winner disqualified due to an illegal dewormer BOTH TIMES, but still despite having won 2 races on the track be allowed to go somewhere else with his charge and take down an even bigger purse.
This is the second example of Sharp sending a previous winner up to OP after getting the purse taken away at Fairgrounds and winning a high price MSW at OP. See Sycamore Lane , Feb 15th at OP in the second race.
Something is seriously wrong here. I know technically these horses were still maidens but no suspensions or moratorium for Sharp horses and he gets to take down even bigger purses. Wow

Hard to fault the guy for taking advantage. If regulators don't give a shit about common sense rules regarding this why not capitalize. Every bettor in the country knows the horse should have lost its condition.

[cj]

Feels like a logical rule would be if you get DQed out of a win, you still lose the condition.

[jay68802]

48 days between the DQ's. The trainer already knows what he has positives for. Still run's the horse, and wins, while using the same med. Had 8 positives, and can take the horse to a different track and run. Shows just how little the current system is doing.

[Bigadam119]

Still wondering how he wasn’t on the indictment...

[clicknow]

I already posted about this incident earlier this afternoon right after the race:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2573608&postcount=44

Ialso attached the article about the previous DQ, etc.

Made me mad, too----I posted about how he was so far out ahead of the rest of the field, it was like he was running on the track alone......what was it, 12 or 14 lengths or something......unreal to watch.

I"ve decided to just finish out the OP season and then decide if I still wish to participate in this sport, unless I see some strong actions to change things and pass the horse racing integrity act, etc.

[jay68802]

But Oaklawn has some of the strictest drug rules in racing.....:ThmbDown:

[classhandicapper]

Feels like a logical rule would be if you get DQed out of a win, you still lose the condition.

I don't think owners would go for a rule like that.

There are too many horses that will never be competitive beyond a handful of easy conditions. Sometimes you know it before the horse has won anything. If you win and get DQ'd, that's painful enough as far as trying to earn enough to pay your bills. If you also lose the condition, it would be too much.

Maybe in some cases you could say "if you win an ALW race and get DQ'd you can't drop back to maiden", but you have to keep that ALW condition.

[Tom]

Feels like a logical rule would be if you get DQed out of a win, you still lose the condition.

Good idea. This Joe Sharp is either not very bright or not very honest.

You decide. :rolleyes:

I don't think owners would go for a rule like that.
Bottom line, tough S***.
I'm sure washing hands is an inconvenience for cooks - do we let them not do it.

Stop worrying about the kitchen staff and worry about the customers.
If these crappy trainer don't like it and leave the game mood! As you say, their horses are not worth much anyway.

We can survive with less than a dozen racetracks. Probably much better than today.

[jay68802]

I don't think owners would go for a rule like that.

Major reason the sport is in this situation. All the horses trained by Servis and the others that were indicted, were stopped from racing because of the use of PED's. Why not this horse? Just because he was not indicted? The "not fair to the owners" excuse is just that, an excuse. Racing steps in when the publicity is bad, but in this case, goes back to business as usual. Same thing as the rule that allows owners that have a trainer suspended, run the horse under another trainer.

If the owners are stopped from running, or lose a condition, it might slow down the drug abuse.

[green80]

a lot of owners are not at the track or even in the same state as their horse when it's running. They have no clue what the trainer is giving the horse.

[Tom]

a lot of owners are not at the track or even in the same state as their horse when it's running. They have no clue what the trainer is giving the horse.

Again, Tough S***.

It is the owner's responsibility.
He owns the horse, he hires the trainer.
He should be the PRIMARY recipient of all penalties.

When you get your car hit by a Fed Ex truck, do you make excuses for the Fed Ex CEO because HE was not in the truck?

[clicknow]

But Oaklawn has some of the strictest drug rules in racing.....:ThmbDown:

Never heard anyone claim that? :confused:

They are on-board with the new plan along with Churchill Downs Inc., New York Racing Association Inc. Stronach Group, Del Mar, Keeneland, Lone Star Park, Remington Park, Los Alamitos Racecourse, and Tampa Bay regarding Lasix use (would be banned for 2-year-old horses within 24 hours of a race and in 2021, would extend to all horses in any stakes races).

They have boosted their drug testing budget every year, (enhanced daily testing and out-of-competition testing) but I have never heard that it's stricter than any other race track?

Their breakdown rate was below the 5.2 average of all tracks last I heard.

They know how to treat their customers and horsemen; they re-surface their track every year; they are in a town that supports racing, they are very innovative and offered lasix free racing with a 10% bonus were pioneers in simulcasting.

But it's always been common knowledge that Cella was openly critical of the NTRA in the early days and has never been a full member so do not report to JC equine injury database.

So I personally have never heard they have "the strictest drug rules in racing"? other than boosting their testing a tad every year.

[Robert Fischer]

there are no clean tracks

between non-tested substances, designer substances that a virtually undetectable, and layoffs/breaks/foal-juvenile substances that greatly enhance performance but will be out of their system by the time they are entered...

there are no clean tracks...

The FBI doing surveillance and going through peoples private texts and phone records, and leveraging/turning a snitch, is about the only way it's even possible to catch anyone.

That's part of the reason horse racing and every sport or entertainer who uses their body to make a living has a high rate of PED use. There's guys who read the weather forecast and guys who do cooking shows who are on PEDs...

at some of the ones recently mentioned on this page, i've seen occasions where three top doping operations have had horses in the same race.

[classhandicapper]

I'm not debating the case of a horse potentially being drugged. Those punishments should exist outside the purse distribution anyway.

I'm talking about mythical trainer "Mr Clean".

He has a very good horse he knows can beat maidens, but decides to run in a NW1 because he thinks the horse might be able to win the bigger purse and because the race is on the schedule at the right time and at the right distance etc... So he takes a shot against tougher, wins, but gets DQ'd.

The horse is still technically a maiden.

There's no way it's acceptable for him to lose that ALW condition too.

At worst, if you really want to bend the rules you can say if you win an ALW and get DQ'd, you are ineligible to run against maidens (though I even hate that idea) or you can write ALW races that specifically say "no maidens", but you can't punish a guy because his horse got DQ'd over and above the already huge punishment of losing the purse.

If a rule like that was in place, fewer horses would run out of their conditions to take a shot at a small stakes or anything else.

[onefast99]

Again, Tough S***.

It is the owner's responsibility.
He owns the horse, he hires the trainer.
He should be the PRIMARY recipient of all penalties.

When you get your car hit by a Fed Ex truck, do you make excuses for the Fed Ex CEO because HE was not in the truck?

Did the owners of Major League Baseball teams know about their players using steroids during the steroid era?

[jay68802]

Never heard anyone claim that? :confused:

They are on-board with the new plan along with Churchill Downs Inc., New York Racing Association Inc. Stronach Group, Del Mar, Keeneland, Lone Star Park, Remington Park, Los Alamitos Racecourse, and Tampa Bay regarding Lasix use (would be banned for 2-year-old horses within 24 hours of a race and in 2021, would extend to all horses in any stakes races).

They have boosted their drug testing budget every year, (enhanced daily testing and out-of-competition testing) but I have never heard that it's stricter than any other race track?

Their breakdown rate was below the 5.2 average of all tracks last I heard.

They know how to treat their customers and horsemen; they re-surface their track every year; they are in a town that supports racing, they are very innovative and offered lasix free racing with a 10% bonus were pioneers in simulcasting.

But it's always been common knowledge that Cella was openly critical of the NTRA in the early days and has never been a full member so do not report to JC equine injury database.

So I personally have never heard they have "the strictest drug rules in racing"? other than boosting their testing a tad every year.

Was being sarcastic. The horsemen know what is being tested for. And what they can use, because it is not being tested for. The drug rules are easy to get by. Sort of like telling a drug addict on parole, we are going to test you weekly for cocaine and opiods. But not for pot.

[proximity]

since the vast, vast majority of horses break their maidens in maiden races, why even pollute the thread with such an incredibly hypothetical example?

even more laughable is the opinion that there are owners for 30% trainers who just innocently stumbled into the situation like they're the jed clampett of horseracing. absurd.

[clicknow]

Again, Tough S***.

It is the owner's responsibility.
He owns the horse, he hires the trainer.
He should be the PRIMARY recipient of all penalties.

Owner is also primary recipient of all VET BILLS.

Agree.

[clicknow]

Was being sarcastic. The horsemen know what is being tested for. And what they can use, because it is not being tested for. The drug rules are easy to get by. Sort of like telling a drug addict on parole, we are going to test you weekly for cocaine and opiods. But not for pot.

Okay, I gotcha. ;)

I sometimes think fans don't even know what they want. They SAY they want certain things, but when I'm at the track and listen to conversations I'm convinced they don't really care. I see the track personnel inspecting lip tatoos, and the horse is standing there all jiggly and electrified....while just standing there. Others are coming around the corner in the paddock area and they're lit......I don't mean like the normal high strung nature of a thoroughbred, I mean lit up.

And the fans are like "oh he's ready to go" or "oh look at him, he doesn't even want to stop to have his tatoo read".....and they LOVE these hopped up horses who act like wall streeters in the 80s who just ducked out of the mens room after a little visit with their cocaine. (I remember when they were admired, too, greed is good, right?)

Then the horses who look like they are going to fall asleep in the post parade. It's late afternoon, they've been dehydrated from lasix for many hours, and pumped thru with anti-inflams for most of the month.......they should be napping in their stall and instead they are having to race.

And, fans love big fields, so you're going to get a certain amount of druggers.

We need some serious regulation here.

[tbwinner]

who CARES about the owner here??? If they knew something they bet and screwed the BETTORS out of their wagering dollars. Two times, now possibly three times!!!!

[cj]

Agree with most here, owner is ultimately responsible. Maybe it would make them think twice about who they send their horses to in the future.

[green80]

Again, Tough S***.

It is the owner's responsibility.
He owns the horse, he hires the trainer.
He should be the PRIMARY recipient of all penalties.

When you get your car hit by a Fed Ex truck, do you make excuses for the Fed Ex CEO because HE was not in the truck?


I disagree.


I guess if a jockey commits a foul or uses a buzzer they should fine or suspend the owner of the horse by your line of thinking. That should stop anyone from wanting to own horses and put an end to racing.

[BIG49010]

Agree with most here, owner is ultimately responsible. Maybe it would make them think twice about who they send their horses to in the future.




I agree 100% with CJ, and a battle that is waged by the majority of the horse owners is the deduction of the losses from racing, against winnings. The IRS thinks that if you loose money every year, which the majority of owners do on a regular basis, it is a hobby! If you think it is a business, and you want to deduct expenses, then you can't say your not responsible for any of the decisions that are made, that just isn't the way business is conducted.

[jay68802]

I disagree.


I guess if a jockey commits a foul or uses a buzzer they should fine or suspend the owner of the horse by your line of thinking. That should stop anyone from wanting to own horses and put an end to racing.

The jockey is an employee. The owner and trainer make the decision to dope a horse.

[Appy]

I never met Joe Sharp, so I don't know his inclinations. But I heard all his positives were for the same substance and that substance was an ingredient in the wormer he used. He mentioned it was a wormer product new to him The active effects of some wormers can be for a period of 120 days. I am liberal enough to believe that is a mistake an honest guy could easily make. I sure can't name every single ingredient in the wormers I use. And even if I could I don't know enough to know what each one is or why it's in there. You just assume it is a legally acceptable substance in an over the counter product that everyone uses. Unless they prove the wormer was illegally laced with a banned PED and he knowingly administered it knowing that, I think he might deserve a pass on these infractions. But if the wormer was simply a cover for the PED I would recommend no mercy.

[Appy]

Forgot to mention owners are responsible for paying the bills. They are seldom to never in the barn on a day to day or even weekly basis. They usually do their horse business over the phone. It is the trainer who is responsible for seeing that the horse's needs are provided, including vet care. Trainers get day pay and % of purse. It is very possible that misdeeds occur without owner knowledge. But for owners who are willing to do anything to win, influencing a trainer, or vet, to employ 'unusual methods' is another thing entirely. In any case of infraction the trainer is always at fault even if he attempts to shift the blame to the vet.

[jay68802]

I never met Joe Sharp, so I don't know his inclinations. But I heard all his positives were for the same substance and that substance was an ingredient in the wormer he used. He mentioned it was a wormer product new to him The active effects of some wormers can be for a period of 120 days. I am liberal enough to believe that is a mistake an honest guy could easily make. I sure can't name every single ingredient in the wormers I use. And even if I could I don't know enough to know what each one is or why it's in there. You just assume it is a legally acceptable substance in an over the counter product that everyone uses. Unless they prove the wormer was illegally laced with a banned PED and he knowingly administered it knowing that, I think he might deserve a pass on these infractions. But if the wormer was simply a cover for the PED I would recommend no mercy.

The mitigating circumstance. OK. Why was he allowed to run the horses that he gave the wormer to? How long to get the first bad test? Two, three weeks? After he was notified of the first positive, he continued to enter horses that had been given the wormer. And they were allowed to run. Could be said he was knowingly entering horses that were considered to be using a PED. And was allowed to by the State Racing Commision.

[Michael]

The part that drive me crazy? When you actually follow these stories you find Bret Calhoun had a positive for levamisole on January 18. He was fined $1000 and the horse placed in last place. (LA stakes) After he agreed with the penalty (prior to Risen Star) ... they let him run the horse again! but even better... the dq allowed his horse to pick up an allowance weight lower bc he "lost" the race.

Long story short. Bret is freakin married to Joe Sharp's mother. (Sara Escudero) and their barns are located across from each other. Sharp got caught post race for Blackberry wine. (Risen Star Feb 15) When he obv knew Bret got the dq.

Garbage like this... is why racing will NEVER make a come back.
Even better... the artcles written to tell the public? they're written after all this happens.

The real issue.. there's no downside to cheating. All that really happens is the trainers assistant or his wife put their name in the pps and take over these same horses.

[Robert Fischer]

some owners just like to go to a high percentage barn. Those guys aren't cheaters, but they want to go to successful operations.


Some other owners have connections to vets and chemists and drug dealers, and they start with super-juicing good horses for one of the most famous super-juicing stakes winning guy, and then they go out to the side and find another guy to super-juice with on the east coast, and use the same drugs/vets/chemists/drug-dealing connections to brazenly cheat and win huge stakes on the east coast.

Some of the owners go to the south-central US and use their drugs/vets/chemists/drug-dealing connections with established super-trainers, and they win meet titles and a bunch of purse money....


it varies...

some owners are definitely directly and intentionally initiating and leading a PED operation.

[Tom]

Did the owners of Major League Baseball teams know about their players using steroids during the steroid era?

Not the same thing.
They own the teams, not the players.
Players are human being under contract they THEY entered into.
And if they violate laws, the players serve the time.
Horse do not dope themselves.
Players do.

[green80]

The jockey is an employee. The owner and trainer make the decision to dope a horse.




Why is the jockey an employee and the trainer not? The owner pays both.



I've never seen an illegal drug appear on my vet bill. I also have never had a trainer tell me he was giving one of my horses something illegal but I suspect it has happened.

[Tom]

Why is the jockey an employee and the trainer not? The owner pays both.



I've never seen an illegal drug appear on my vet bill. I also have never had a trainer tell me he was giving one of my horses something illegal but I suspect it has happened.

I think he means jockey do not dope horses. Trainers do.
Why hold the jock responsible for what he didn't do? Unless he knew, then I say, yes, he is just as guilty.

[hopbet]

ALCON:
This horse is running at OAKLAWN on Saturday, any comments or opinions?

HOPBET

[jay68802]

ALCON:
This horse is running at OAKLAWN on Saturday, any comments or opinions?

HOPBET

Let me know if he is on drugs or not, so I can handicap the race.

[clicknow]

ALCON:
This horse is running at OAKLAWN on Saturday, any comments or opinions?

HOPBET

Yes, race 4 today, M/L is 3-1.

At those odds which will probably go lower, not playing him to win I think I like the :4: or :9: --- and longshots :8: or :3: :1: and him for my lower exotics. Haven't capped my wagers yet, just going off my virtual stable so far. Sat. aren't that great for longshots though.

[Afleet]

ALCON:
This horse is running at OAKLAWN on Saturday, any comments or opinions?

HOPBET

looks impossible to beat, but i will pass on low odds. Shooters Shoot looks interesting. Much better opportunities later in the card IMHO. He would be live in the Oaklawn Stakes later in the card

[Waquoit]

Not the same thing.
They own the teams, not the players.
Players are human being under contract they THEY entered into.
And if they violate laws, the players serve the time.
Horse do not dope themselves.
Players do.

Wrong answer. Of course the owners knew about steroids.

[clicknow]

Horse do not dope themselves.

Even if some of them wish they could......I can think of a few that were not treated well