This doesn't sound good (for Servis and Navarro)

[cj]

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/jason-servis-jorge-navarro-face-federal-indictment-in-doping-scheme/#.XmZNGGhqsKw.twitter

[dilanesp]

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/jason-servis-jorge-navarro-face-federal-indictment-in-doping-scheme/#.XmZNGGhqsKw.twitter

In one sense it does sound good. Federal prosecutors seeking serious prison time for doping trainers could be a game changer for the sport.

[pandy]

I just posted about this. Apparently a lot more names are involved including harness trainers. Navarro, obviously, is a well known juicer and I'd love to see him banned from the sport asap and hopefully face criminal charges if they can prove this.

[pandy]

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/jason-servis-jorge-navarro-face-federal-indictment-in-doping-scheme/#.XmZNGGhqsKw.twitter

Maybe this is wishful thinking but I'm hoping that it is good, in the long run, for the racing industry. These fines and suspensions that the sport hands out do not deter these crooks. I've said this for years, they are race fixers and they should be prosecuted on a federal level. They are committing a felony every time they juice a horse.

[RunForTheRoses]

This is so hard to believe they weren't just using hay oats and water. /sarcasm off

[pandy]

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/navarro-servis-among-27-indicted-on-federal-charges-related-to-performance-enhancing-drugs/?fbclid=IwAR3oFbBUwvhekPboseZE69nrfidxfPJXS2doyQ7Y 9qPNeAD5csHDLWbnNIY

[cj]

I agree it will be good for the game. I should have said doesn't sound good for the trainers named.

Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows PEDs have been being used liberally by some for a while now. I don't think it is any coincidence horses run best fresh these days and take more time between races.

Anyway, will be interesting to watch this all play out. I've always said drugging innocent animals would be a bigger black eye for the sport than anything including breakdowns.

[Suff]

This explains my hibbity-jippidies.

[rubicon55]

I think this article in AP is also related.

https://apnews.com/dc374ced6ba7ebd0d4303119a9811107

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've especially enjoyed Servis' moral indignation when accused of cheating in the past.

[cj]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1153126

Indictment link is in the article above.

[cutchemist42]

Just saw on Twitter now. Glad to see them being caught.

[groupie doll]

This doesn't sound good, but at the same time... good.

[GMB@BP]

Most shocking thing I have heard since the Kobe death.

[Tom]

I've especially enjoyed Servis' moral indignation when accused of cheating in the past.

You used Service and moral in the same sentence....heh heh heh!

High time the entire industry was put under a microscope. Anyone operating within the rules should not have any concerns.

[GMB@BP]

27 trainers.....lets wait till "lets make a deal" starts, might find out much much more about drugging.

[groupie doll]

Was it 27 barns (trainers) or 27 individuals?

[Robert Fischer]

i don't like any of this shit

i don't like doping horses

i don't like inconsistent standard accepted practices

i don't like details of phone conversations leaked out in media

i don't like 'deals' involving co-defendants

:ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[Robert Fischer]

Beware if you are playing 'move-ups' in the future...

this could have a lot of those horses not 'jumping up' for a while, and some horses with established form may not be able get as much distance at a hot pace.

If you have some strong secondary contenders, they may pay OK in a key, if the supertrainer's horses don't fire their typical effort.

[cj]

Was it 27 barns (trainers) or 27 individuals?

Not 27 barns, includes vets, suppliers, etc.

[pandy]

Beware if you are playing 'move-ups' in the future...

this could have a lot of those horses not 'jumping up' for a while, and some horses with established form may not be able get as much distance at a hot pace.

If you have some strong secondary contenders, they may pay OK in a key, if the supertrainer's horses don't fire their typical effort.



Gary Contessa may want to rethink his decision to get out of training. I agree that at least in the short term, several of the high percentage trainers that are still left could possibly go into a slump. I remember when Oscar Barrera finally got a drug positive, he went into a slump where I believe he lost 101 races in a row. Anyone who is doing something they shouldn't is most likely going to put that on hold.

[dilanesp]

i don't like any of this shit

i don't like doping horses

i don't like inconsistent standard accepted practices

i don't like details of phone conversations leaked out in media

i don't like 'deals' involving co-defendants

:ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

If you don't like illegal conduct, prosecutors are a necessary evil. Of course they can abuse their power, and of course dealmaking isn't pretty, but at the end of the day horse racing absolutely needs an influx of federal prosecutors at this point. It's the one thing that could have a real deterrent effect.

[trifecta]

Gary Contessa may want to rethink his decision to get out of training. I agree that at least in the short term, several of the high percentage trainers that are still left could possibly go into a slump. I remember when Oscar Barrera finally got a drug positive, he went into a slump where I believe he lost 101 races in a row. Anyone who is doing something they shouldn't is most likely going to put that on hold.

I'm curious to see how Saffie Joseph and Robertino Diodoro do in the immediate future.

[Irishfever]

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1256661/download

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1256646/download
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1256656/download

[Robert Fischer]

Gary Contessa may want to rethink his decision to get out of training. I agree that at least in the short term, several of the high percentage trainers that are still left could possibly go into a slump. I remember when Oscar Barrera finally got a drug positive, he went into a slump where I believe he lost 101 races in a row. Anyone who is doing something they shouldn't is most likely going to put that on hold.

What little I know of Contessa, he seems like a class act. :ThmbUp:

We saw some this sporadically last fall, but this should be more significant (still processing this info, tbh).


...

Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows PEDs have been being used liberally by some for a while now. I don't think it is any coincidence horses run best fresh these days and take more time between races.

...

Yea.
I dislike racing's lack of good common accepted standards. It's like we foster anarchy out there. We break our necks, looking the other way. Then one day, we come down with a rule of law. Same thing with 'herding', same thing with other issues...

[groupie doll]

Not 27 barns, includes vets, suppliers, etc.
Thanks that's what I thought, and that was backed up in the indictment that I just read.
It doesn't make this situation better (that it's only 27 individuals), of course, but I'd rather not assume and jump to conclusions.

[castaway01]

Thanks that's what I thought, and that was backed up in the indictment that I just read.
It doesn't make this situation better (that it's only 27 individuals), of course, but I'd rather not assume and jump to conclusions.

If you read the articles and the indictment and the amount of detailed evidence that appears to be gathered (a lot), 27 is a very good start. They have the trainer of a horse that just won a $20 million race. That HAS to deter people to not follow in his footsteps...doesn't it?

Edit: I wasn't being sarcastic, but I realized after I wrote this that some might find the $20 million worth the risk. But my point was that if they can get heavy hitters in the game, hopefully the smaller owners/trainers tempted to cheat would see that and steer clear. I don't know, probably too naïve.

[groupie doll]

If you read the articles and the indictment and the amount of detailed evidence that appears to be gathered (a lot), 27 is a very good start. They have the trainer of a horse that just won a $20 million race. That HAS to deter people to not follow in his footsteps...doesn't it?
one would hope.
More likely it will have the effect of me finding a new hobby...

[cj]

How disturbing is it that Servis and Navarro seem chummy and shared info?

[Irishfever]

How disturbing is it that Servis and Navarro seem chummy and shared info?

Kinda common within the clique of juicers.

[Blenheim]

How did all this doping go undetected by the testing labs?

~

Maybe these indictments will give impetus to the Horse Racing Integrity Act. Last I read the Act had a 4% chance of passing.

[cj]

How did all this doping go undetected by the testing labs?

~

Maybe these indictments will give impetus to the Horse Racing Integrity Act. Last I read the Act had a 4% chance of passing . . .

They make new stuff that isn't tested for to stay out of trouble. Read the indictments when you have a few hours. It is ugly.

[Irishfever]

How did all this doping go undetected by the testing labs?

~

Maybe these indictments will give impetus to the Horse Racing Integrity Act. Last I read the Act had a 4% chance of passing . . .

Because they are synthetic analogues. Many labs knew something was there but they couldnt call a positive with the way the rules are written. Thats why jurisdictions need to group families of drugs ie fentanyl carfentanil morphine derive from same chain.

That way if Mr. Underground Basement lab concocts a customized PED similar yet different to substance x. its still a positive.

Also labs only screen for "x" number of substances in any given test due to the cost but I think that is changing as testing costs come down.

[Mulerider]

How disturbing is it that Servis and Navarro seem chummy and shared info?

The indictment says that Navarro personally injected X Y Jet with PEDs fifty times "in the weeks leading up to, and on the day of, the race in Dubai."

X Y Jet, of course, died of "an apparent heart attack" on Jan. 8, 2020.

Navarro needs to be in jail for a long, long time.

[thaskalos]

And the poor misguided horseplayer keeps re-adjusting his speed/pace figures in order to cope with these sudden form reversals. :rolleyes:

[cj]

And the poor misguided horseplayer keeps re-adjusting his speed/pace figures in order to deal with these sudden form reversals. :rolleyes:

No adjustments needed, just make them really high :)

[Immortal6]

Couple of highlights “lowlights” from the indictment. Just a disgusting read through if you have the time. Details how he killed XY Jet by juicing him 50 times and how Servis gave Max Sec SGF-1000 and bribed a vet essentially to say it was a false positive for a different drug.

[Appy]

Results over the past 2-3 months make me think there has been a surge in nefarious usage recently. I want to see every one of the cheaters caught and banned for life.

[cj]

EDITOR'S NOTE: I WAS TRYING TO EDIT A TWEET THAT CJ POSTED FROM NAVARRO'S ACCOUNT BECAUSE IT WASN'T SHOWING UP...APPARENTLY, HE DELETED HIS TWITTER ACCOUNT...LMAO

[Psychotic Parakeet]

One must wonder if Coolmore will back out of their stud deal with Maximum Security? I imagine this whole situation more likely made a major impact on his worth as a stallion.

[thaskalos]

Guys...we are talking here about juicing some of the best horses in the country. If these limelight trainers are committing these crimes...can you imagine what the low-level trainers, who are struggling to survive, are doing out there? Can you fathom what these $5,000 claimers must be going through?

[Mulerider]

Guys...we are talking here about juicing some of the best horses in the country. If these limelight trainers are committing these crimes...can you imagine what the low-level trainers, who are struggling to survive, are doing out there? Can you fathom what these $5,000 claimers must be going through?

And in jurisdictions that don't give a rat's ass?

[thaskalos]

https://twitter.com/JorgeNavarroRS/status/1214929077200666637

How this pig is still training horses is beyond me.

[classhandicapper]

I'm a little surprised there aren't a few more famous names on that list. Maybe they have better lawyers.

[cutchemist42]

Guys...we are talking here about juicing some of the best horses in the country. If these limelight trainers are committing these crimes...can you imagine what the low-level trainers, who are struggling to survive, are doing out there? Can you fathom what these $5,000 claimers must be going through?

Part of me wonders though if you need certain amount of wealth to afford this level of sophisticated doping? Would low level trainers be able to operate something like that is listed?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm a little surprised there aren't a few more famous names on that list. Maybe they have better lawyers.

You haven't given any of the defendants a chance to flip on others yet.

[thaskalos]

I honestly can't tell if this latest scandal is "good for the game"...or if it's the last nail in the game's coffin. My feeling is that this is just the tip of the iceberg. No way is this just about Navarro and Servis.

[thaskalos]

You haven't given any of the defendants a chance to flip on others yet.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

Very astute observation.

[jk3521]

I'm a little surprised there aren't a few more famous names on that list. Maybe they have better lawyers.
Is there an official list somewhere? We all knew something was up with Navarro and Servis. Interested to see if some of my "favorite" trainers are involved.

[thaskalos]

Anybody betting Parx today? :)

[biggestal99]

And in jurisdictions that don't give a rat's ass?

Jersey tested Maximum security but did not test for the specific PED given to him.

States want clean racing. But the trainers are staying one step ahead of the regulators.

Allan

[Saratoga_Mike]

Great day for honest trainers like Graham Motion.

[thaskalos]

Somewhere up there...Jack Van Berg must be smiling.

[Irishfever]

The shady vets are the biggest scumbags. Dr. Grasso is named in one indictment.

Trainers are more or less pawns in the game, get caught, new name comes along and buys off the the same surreptitious vets.

They have hidden behind their professional D.V.M only to fail to hold their oath.

[cutchemist42]

https://twitter.com/BillFinley3/status/1237025200585224194?s=19


Just disgusting....

[Tom]

If you don't like illegal conduct, prosecutors are a necessary evil. Of course they can abuse their power, and of course dealmaking isn't pretty, but at the end of the day horse racing absolutely needs an influx of federal prosecutors at this point. It's the one thing that could have a real deterrent effect.

Even if "deals" are made with co conspirators for prosecution, tracks can still take action on their own. Time for a massive purge in racing - either the crooks or the customers. It's up to racing.

[dilanesp]

Couple of highlights “lowlights” from the indictment. Just a disgusting read through if you have the time. Details how he killed XY Jet by juicing him 50 times and how Servis gave Max Sec SGF-1000 and bribed a vet essentially to say it was a false positive for a different drug.

So basically the horses who crossed the wire first in the last two Kentucky Derbies, the last two three year old champions, were both juiced.

Lovely sport we have.

[dilanesp]

Even if "deals" are made with co conspirators for prosecution, tracks can still take action on their own. Time for a massive purge in racing - either the crooks or the customers. It's up to racing.

That's absolutely an important point.

[Irishfever]

So basically the horses who crossed the wire first in the last two Kentucky Derbies, the last two three year old champions, were both juiced.

Lovely sport we have.

Anybody remember Sharp Aztecas incredible 6 wide the whole way in the Pat Day Mile?

[AltonKelsey]

I just posted about this. Apparently a lot more names are involved including harness trainers. Navarro, obviously, is a well known juicer and I'd love to see him banned from the sport asap and hopefully face criminal charges if they can prove this.


uh, if navarro or servis ever start another horse again , its time to give up the game forever



lets not talk about proof. Im sure they have them dead to rights

[Robert Fischer]

Anybody betting Parx today? :)


looking that way now... Seven watch-lists popped up for horses... Four popped up for good-trainers...

Think I saw Zuleta(sp?) on one of the documents. I'll re-open that so I can see who is named, as well as use common sense on at least one of my watch-list trainers whose horses show the same features.


You playing, or just marveling at the implications?

[CaptainObvious]

uh, if navarro or servis ever start another horse again , its time to give up the game forever



lets not talk about proof. Im sure they have them dead to rights

Are you familiar with the American justice system? Anything is possible.

[Michael]

Results over the past 2-3 months make me think there has been a surge in nefarious usage recently. I want to see every one of the cheaters caught and banned for life.


When I can see horses BREATHING differently through twinspires's terrible bit rate stream... you know things are terribly wrong.

[Jeff P]

Anybody betting Parx today? :)

I am. Should I be scrambling for names of assistant trainers? ;)

Seriously though, I think there's a good chance the game will be better off because of this in the long run.


-jp

.

[GMB@BP]

I am waiting for the people that state they had no idea this was going on. Thats the sad part, everyone knows what goes on and either doesnt care or couldnt do anything about it if they did.

You hate to lump everyone into the same box but it gets pretty easy to be cynical that the majority are doing something to break the rules, you almost have to if you want to compete.

[GMB@BP]

and you really have to call into question some of these owners, like the West's, who send horses to people of these reputations. Industry insiders know whats going on and I have no doubt many owners do as well.

[Tom]

So I saw on another board that Maximum Security might set a record for being DQ'd in the Derby AND Saudi Cup!

West will go bonkers!

Name his first born Maxterisk*! :lol:

[GMB@BP]

So I saw on another board that Maximum Security might set a record for being DQ'd in the Derby AND Saudi Cup!

West will go bonkers!

Name his first born Maxterisk*! :lol:

Saudi's only care about a horse getting whipped 4 extra times

Hey, I though they were into whipping in that country?

[dilanesp]

Are you familiar with the American justice system? Anything is possible.

As far as the criminal system is concerned, they are innocent until proven guilty. Which is fine.

But horse racing as a sport doesn't have to wait. There's no due process owed on this sort of thing when it comes to racetracks and very little required when it comes to states- they can be barred from stabling at major tracks, and should be, and they should be given interim suspensions based on the showing of probable cause until their criminal charges are resolved.

I will say this. One thing that is pretty clear from the indictments is that they were tapping Servis' and Navarro's texts and phones as early as May of last year. This is an investigation that went on a long time. The chances that the defendants are actually innocent is extremely low.

[JustRalph]

Tip of the iceberg

[dilanesp]

Saudi's only care about a horse getting whipped 4 extra times

Hey, I though they were into whipping in that country?

The Saudis are extremely concerned about doping. I hate to compliment them on anything- I think that royal family is a malign influence on the world- but they have a zero tolerance doping policy over there and they promoted it in advance of the Saudi Cup. I imagine the option disqualifying Maximum Security will at least be considered in light of this.

[Irishfever]

As far as the criminal system is concerned, they are innocent until proven guilty. Which is fine.

But horse racing as a sport doesn't have to wait. There's no due process owed on this sort of thing when it comes to racetracks and very little required when it comes to states- they can be barred from stabling at major tracks, and should be, and they should be given interim suspensions based on the showing of probable cause until their criminal charges are resolved.

I will say this. One thing that is pretty clear from the indictments is that they were tapping Servis' and Navarro's texts and phones as early as May of last year. This is an investigation that went on a long time. The chances that the defendants are actually innocent is extremely low.

Feds brag about a 95% conviction rate. Cuz most cases dont get to trial because the defendants make a deal. They have the goods on them, no goin to kangaroo court with the comissions whose hands are tied.

Like one said Tip of the Iceberg, this is just one chainlink broken.

There are other covert drug runners yet to be caught.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The Saudis are extremely concerned about doping. I hate to compliment them on anything- I think that royal family is a malign influence on the world- but they have a zero tolerance doping policy over there and they promoted it in advance of the Saudi Cup. I imagine the option disqualifying Maximum Security will at least be considered in light of this.

Great thought - hope you're right!!!!!

[depalma113]

The FBI had McDonald's run an entire Monopoly Game when they knew the game was rigged, just so they could get more evidence on the culprits.

Based on that alone, it's pretty obvious they informed Churchill Downs Inc. that Maximum Security would be drugged they day he ran in the Kentucky Derby.

They couldn't let Churchill scratch him because they needed more evidence. Afterwards though, they could DQ him for anything that happened in the race.

[depalma113]

So I saw on another board that Maximum Security might set a record for being DQ'd in the Derby AND Saudi Cup!

West will go bonkers!

Name his first born Maxterisk*! :lol:

He is going to be DQ'd in every race he ran.

[pandy]

Tip of the iceberg


I'm going to watch the win percentages of any trainer I suspect in So. Cal and other jurisdictions, too. This could cause a domino effect throughout the industry where the juice trainers in other parts of the country will get worried enough to stop doping.

[Robert Fischer]

Maxterisk

always thought "Panama Lewis" would be an interesting name for a horse.

[jahura2]

looking that way now... Seven watch-lists popped up for horses... Four popped up for good-trainers...

Think I saw Zuleta(sp?) on one of the documents. I'll re-open that so I can see who is named, as well as use common sense on at least one of my watch-list trainers whose horses show the same features.


You playing, or just marveling at the implications?

Has anyone seen any other trainer names besides Servis, Navarro, and Surick on the standardbred side?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Has anyone seen any other trainer names besides Servis, Navarro, and Surick on the standardbred side?

Yes, please open the indictments posted earlier.

[GMB@BP]

The Saudis are extremely concerned about doping. I hate to compliment them on anything- I think that royal family is a malign influence on the world- but they have a zero tolerance doping policy over there and they promoted it in advance of the Saudi Cup. I imagine the option disqualifying Maximum Security will at least be considered in light of this.

One can only hope.

[Robert Fischer]

Has anyone seen any other trainer names besides Servis, Navarro, and Surick on the standardbred side?
I haven't read the documents well enough to understand them. Marcos Zulueta's name appears on https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1256656/download with some others.

had a favorite scratched to day

Some of the names ring a bell.

[biggestal99]

Anybody remember Sharp Aztecas incredible 6 wide the whole way in the Pat Day Mile?

Anyone of Navarros wins in the last decade.

A good horse juiced makes a super horse.

Allan

[CaptainObvious]

As far as the criminal system is concerned, they are innocent until proven guilty. Which is fine.

But horse racing as a sport doesn't have to wait. There's no due process owed on this sort of thing when it comes to racetracks and very little required when it comes to states- they can be barred from stabling at major tracks, and should be, and they should be given interim suspensions based on the showing of probable cause until their criminal charges are resolved.

I will say this. One thing that is pretty clear from the indictments is that they were tapping Servis' and Navarro's texts and phones as early as May of last year. This is an investigation that went on a long time. The chances that the defendants are actually innocent is extremely low.

Yeah, because horse racing has been so proactive in rooting out cheaters. It’s one slap on the wrist after another. Hopefully, this is the beginning of real change.

[GMB@BP]

One thing I wonder is if certain owners green light doping the horses while others they keep it either out of their purview or just go straight with the horses.

For example, on the west coast there is a owner and trainer who have been acquiring horses the past few years and we see big wins in top dirt races by horses who barely figured to win. You can pretty much count on it, this trainer, and look at the owner and its always the same combo....yet you dont see this really throughout the barn, the "move ups" are in the normal range.

[Irishfever]

Has anyone seen any other trainer names besides Servis, Navarro, and Surick on the standardbred side?


Harness Trainers

Nick Surick
Chris Oakes
Chris Marino
Rick Dane
Tom Guido (has a beard on paper)
Connor Flynn
Donato Poliseno

Tbred
Servis
Navarro
Tannuzzo

Interesting of note
Scott Robinson ran website selling prerace, was partner on Lost in Time a champion 2 yr old. Involved with notable driver Scott Zeron.

This Izhaki women sounds like a gem. Devils breath sounds like a potent drug masking agent that has dropped alot of horses.

[ReplayRandall]

Yeah, because horse racing has been so proactive in rooting out cheaters. It’s one slap on the wrist after another. Hopefully, this is the beginning of real change.
I thought real change started with Dutrow's 10 year ban?....It's who you know and who looks the other way.

[lamboguy]

I thought real change started with Dutrow's 10 year ban?....It's who you know and who looks the other way.ain't that the case in this game.

Navarro and Servis were pretty arrogant though and deserved to get nailed.
the main initial problem for this game now is that these guys had tons of horses and who in their right minds are going to want to train these horses that need PED's to run.

[cj]

Jersey tested Maximum security but did not test for the specific PED given to him.

States want clean racing. But the trainers are staying one step ahead of the regulators.

Allan

LOL, Drazin who sends horses to Servis and also runs MTH. Nothing to see here.

[Half Smoke]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l2QDTqHp9W7WIJXlC/giphy.gif

[cj]

and you really have to call into question some of these owners, like the West's, who send horses to people of these reputations. Industry insiders know whats going on and I have no doubt many owners do as well.

There are some owners that not only know, they orchestrate this stuff. The trainer is just a pawn sometimes.

[castaway01]

There are some owners that not only know, they orchestrate this stuff. The trainer is just a pawn sometimes.

While that's true, that's also what those who are going to defend Servis and Navarro will say.

It's like the "this is the tip of the iceberg" comments (not from you CJ). You have to actually start SOMEWHERE and punish SOMEONE at some point. It always starts with the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully something good will come of this.

[dilanesp]

While that's true, that's also what those who are going to defend Servis and Navarro will say.

It's like the "this is the tip of the iceberg" comments (not from you CJ). You have to actually start SOMEWHERE and punish SOMEONE at some point. It always starts with the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully something good will come of this.

Also, even if the trainer is a "pawn", the trainer has a legal and ethical obligation not to be one.

We lawyers face this all the time. Client asks us to do something we aren't allowed to do. We're supposed to say "no". And if we say "yes", we are on the hook along with our clients.

[thaskalos]

While that's true, that's also what those who are going to defend Servis and Navarro will say.

It's like the "this is the tip of the iceberg" comments (not from you CJ). You have to actually start SOMEWHERE and punish SOMEONE at some point. It always starts with the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully something good will come of this.

When I said "this is the tip of the iceberg"...I didn't mean that the punishment should wait until all the cheaters were rounded up. What I meant was...crucify the ones mentioned here...but don't stop there.

[dilanesp]

https://twitter.com/VinceStone11/status/1237102943267991552

[cnollfan]

I wonder how much Coolmore paid for half interest in Maximum Security, and how they feel about that now.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I wonder how much Coolmore paid for half interest in Maximum Security, and how they feel about that now.

Pending lawsuit? What's our resident lawyer think?

[cj]

While that's true, that's also what those who are going to defend Servis and Navarro will say.

It's like the "this is the tip of the iceberg" comments (not from you CJ). You have to actually start SOMEWHERE and punish SOMEONE at some point. It always starts with the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully something good will come of this.

Reading the indictments, there really is no way they were pawns here. They are clearly heavily involved.

[cj]

Also, even if the trainer is a "pawn", the trainer has a legal and ethical obligation not to be one.

We lawyers face this all the time. Client asks us to do something we aren't allowed to do. We're supposed to say "no". And if we say "yes", we are on the hook along with our clients.

Saul Goodman. :)

[onefast99]

This is an FBI investigation due to simulcast worldwide it is also an international investigation as well that has yielded a lot of damaging information against many involved in this industry. To say we have only hit the tip of the iceberg is probably a correct assumption. Now we can just sit back and await the removal of those involved in this doping scandal. There is one thing for sure a lot of trainers that left Monmouth Park because of Navarro will now return!

[Irishfever]

Reading the indictments, there really is no way they were pawns here. They are clearly heavily involved.


In this case I agree but as seen by DVM.Grasso, DVM Izhaki, DVM Fishman indictments, unscrupulous vets are as much to blame. There are many more vets that can be named so go after them too.

[foregoforever]

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/jason-servis-jorge-navarro-face-federal-indictment-in-doping-scheme/#.XmZNGGhqsKw.twitter

For those that read the linked story earlier in the day, it has been updated in the past half hour with much more information. It provides a bit easier read than the original indictment.

One paragraph that caught my eye (emphasis mine):

The details of a phone conversation between Navarro and “operators of a racing stable in California, for whom Navarro is a trainer” were also released. Discussing the horse Nanoosh, one of the operators on the call was quoted as questioning whether Navarro was “giving them [the operator’s horses] all the s–t” asking later, “Is this horse jacked out? Is he on f–ing pills or are we just f–king-.” Navarro is alleged to have replied “Everything. He gets everything.” Individual 1 cuts short the discussion, saying, “You don’t have to tell me on the phone,” according to the indictment. In his most recent start, the registered owners of Nanoosh were Rockingham Ranch, Zayat Stables LLC and David L. Bernsen.

Individual 1 is not identified.

[River11]

Gary Contessa may want to rethink his decision to get out of training.

What little I know of Contessa, he seems like a class act. :ThmbUp:




Gary Contessa is a class act, really enjoyed this interview of him at Tampa Bay.* He even gave out a winner he was running the next day at Tampa, a FTS named Chart paid $8.00. Hope he keeps training.
https://www.facebook.com/TampaBayDownsFL/videos/2775223555853774/

[cj]

One thing I've always thought was a tell tale sign was the recent fad of "training up to races". Trainers that consistently fire big off the bench is a serious red flag in my opinion. The two big name guys here were prolific with it.

[Irishfever]

For those that read the linked story earlier in the day, it has been updated in the past half hour with much more information. It provides a bit easier read than the original indictment.

One paragraph that caught my eye (emphasis mine):

The details of a phone conversation between Navarro and “operators of a racing stable in California, for whom Navarro is a trainer” were also released. Discussing the horse Nanoosh, one of the operators on the call was quoted as questioning whether Navarro was “giving them [the operator’s horses] all the s–t” asking later, “Is this horse jacked out? Is he on f–ing pills or are we just f–king-.” Navarro is alleged to have replied “Everything. He gets everything.” Individual 1 cuts short the discussion, saying, “You don’t have to tell me on the phone,” according to the indictment. In his most recent start, the registered owners of Nanoosh were Rockingham Ranch, Zayat Stables LLC and David L. Bernsen.

Individual 1 is not identified.


Likely Gary Hartunian of Rockingham Ranch, reputation of being a big time gambler asking if the hrse was locked n loaded.

[JerryBoyle]

Reading through the indicment now, and hope all these guys serve lengthy and hard time.

Curious about something - not sure how you reference an indictment, but bullet point 50.c under count four - did the FBI surreptitiously draw blood from a horse they knew the trainer was going to try and move shortly before he actually moved it? It reads like the horse was drugged on Dec 17 2018 and then moved the day after. The FBI was able to test the horse sometime inbetween there WHILE the trainer was actively trying to avoid the NJRC? That's some next level spy stuff

[classhandicapper]

Saul Goodman. :)

I'm binge watching that show now. :-)

[cj]

I'm binge watching that show now. :-)

I like it more than Breaking Bad to be honest. Slower moving but that is more my speed. :)

[classhandicapper]

I like it more than Breaking Bad to be honest. Slower moving but more that is more my speed. :)

I just finished binge watching Breaking Bad. I liked it a lot. At first I didn't like the Saul character that much, but he slowly grew on me. I'm still in the middle of the first season of Better Call Saul. So far it's very good.

[Tom]

When I said "this is the tip of the iceberg"...I didn't mean that the punishment should wait until all the cheaters were rounded up. What I meant was...crucify the ones mentioned here...but don't stop there.

Below the tip of the ice berg is the people who run the race tracks themselves. I imagine that is one huge cesspool of conflicts of interest that needs to be broken up. NO ONE associated with running a track or officiating one should allowed tho have ANY connection to the racing itself. Perhaps one of the three stewards at every track should be from the FBI.

[onefast99]

One thing I've always thought was a tell tale sign was the recent fad of "training up to races". Trainers that consistently fire big off the bench is a serious red flag in my opinion. The two big name guys here were prolific with it.

Interesting stat. I claimed one off Navarro in August it took my trainer 8 months to get her to the winners circle I have been saying for a long time on this forum that I believed that Navarro was doing some sort of juicing to his horses that wasn’t detectable by the race tracks. It took an FBI investigation to nail him and I hope he goes behind bars for a long time and never goes near another race horse again this is a huge victory for everyone owners gamblers other trainers that do it the right way score one for the good guys finally in this industry!

[GMB@BP]

For those that read the linked story earlier in the day, it has been updated in the past half hour with much more information. It provides a bit easier read than the original indictment.

One paragraph that caught my eye (emphasis mine):

The details of a phone conversation between Navarro and “operators of a racing stable in California, for whom Navarro is a trainer” were also released. Discussing the horse Nanoosh, one of the operators on the call was quoted as questioning whether Navarro was “giving them [the operator’s horses] all the s–t” asking later, “Is this horse jacked out? Is he on f–ing pills or are we just f–king-.” Navarro is alleged to have replied “Everything. He gets everything.” Individual 1 cuts short the discussion, saying, “You don’t have to tell me on the phone,” according to the indictment. In his most recent start, the registered owners of Nanoosh were Rockingham Ranch, Zayat Stables LLC and David L. Bernsen.

Individual 1 is not identified.

The Peter Miller/Rockingham Ranch horses always outperformed the other horses in his stable.

There are owners that dont give a shit about the horses they just want the wins, money, attention.

[Robert Fischer]

Is there an official list somewhere? We all knew something was up with Navarro and Servis. Interested to see if some of my "favorite" trainers are involved.

That's the elephant in the room.

[lamboguy]

This is an FBI investigation due to simulcast worldwide it is also an international investigation as well that has yielded a lot of damaging information against many involved in this industry. To say we have only hit the tip of the iceberg is probably a correct assumption. Now we can just sit back and await the removal of those involved in this doping scandal. There is one thing for sure a lot of trainers that left Monmouth Park because of Navarro will now return!you would think so, but these tracks tend to look the other way when it comes down to these big outfits. to me they are every bit as guilty as Navarro and Servis. and there might be other Navarro's and Servis's ready to step in and train for the same owners.

it really boils down to how this game is run. when a few guys control all the horses, bad things tend to happen.

[Saratoga_Mike]

you would think so, but these tracks tend to look the other way when it comes down to these big outfits. to me they are every bit as guilty as Navarro and Servis. and there might be other Navarro's and Servis's ready to step in and train for the same owners.

it really boils down to how this game is run. when a few guys control all the horses, bad things tend to happen.

That's the big question - will this have a chilling effect on others? I hope so, but I wouldn't bet too much on it.

[CaptainObvious]

I like it more than Breaking Bad to be honest. Slower moving but that is more my speed. :)

I’ll guess Navarro/Servis prefer B.B.

[Zman179]

The Saudis are extremely concerned about doping. I hate to compliment them on anything- I think that royal family is a malign influence on the world- but they have a zero tolerance doping policy over there and they promoted it in advance of the Saudi Cup. I imagine the option disqualifying Maximum Security will at least be considered in light of this.

Here’s the tricky part: If it is proven that Servis drugged Maximum Security for the Saudi Cup, could Saudi Arabia charge Servis with a crime? If so, Servis better never leave the USA ever again.

[Fightingirish51195]

Navarro had this coming. “The juice man! We **** everyone”

[Irishfever]

That's the big question - will this have a chilling effect on others? I hope so, but I wouldn't bet too much on it.



Well Surick is facing 40 yrs. 85% minimum federal sentencing must be served so I hope to hell there are no deals for the major actors to send a strng deterrent to others. Its the only way the game will get cleaned up once guys start making reservations at the Crowbar Motel.

[Zman179]

Well Surick is facing 40 yrs. 85% minimum federal sentencing must be served so I hope to hell there are no deals for the major actors to send a strng deterrent to others. Its the only way the game will get cleaned up once guys start making reservations at the Crowbar Motel.

If Surick is indeed facing 40 years in Club Fed, well...the guy is in his twenties. He will sing like a canary to get a lesser sentence. Stay tuned!

[Afleet]

the indictment left off about 20+ trainers who win at a rate 2x that of Mott and Graham.

[Afleet]

I hated betting tracks where these people ran horses. I bet I have lost tens of thousands of dollars due to one of their freaks running 20+ greater speed figure-off a long layoff

[onefast99]

I hated betting tracks where these people ran horses. I bet I have lost tens of thousands of dollars due to one of their freaks running 20+ greater speed figure-off a long layoff

I hated running against Navarro at Monmouth I had 4 seconds to him in the past 3 years and my trainer runs in the 12% win percentage range.

[baconswitchfarm]

If Surick is indeed facing 40 years in Club Fed, well...the guy is in his twenties. He will sing like a canary to get a lesser sentence. Stay tuned!


If he is facing 1 day he will sing . 😆

There are harness trainers not listed in the indictments that were picked up today so there is more to come. All the Midwest trainers using the same stuff not mentioned yet

[Gander36]

I have been advocating also suspending HORSES for bad drug tests.

If you think about it, owners and tracks would have much more to lose under this scenario, and maybe be more proactive in making sure trainers are more closely scrutinized and more harshly dealt with.

[dilanesp]

I have been advocating also suspending HORSES for bad drug tests.

If you think about it, owners and tracks would have much more to lose under this scenario, and maybe be more proactive in making sure trainers are more closely scrutinized and more harshly dealt with.

American horse racing has no guts and likes dopers. Really.

There's a lot of sports where what Justify did would have resulted in the vacation of his entire record. When Ben Johnson failed a steroids test, he ended up losing BOTH his world records, not just the Olympic gold medal. He lost everything. In horse racing, our authorities actually covered for the dopers because they wanted Justify to keep the TC and his owners to keep the money.

[the little guy]

the indictment left off about 20+ trainers who win at a rate 2x that of Mott and Graham.

Please name them.

[lex]

Reading through the indicment now, and hope all these guys serve lengthy and hard time.

Curious about something - not sure how you reference an indictment, but bullet point 50.c under count four - did the FBI surreptitiously draw blood from a horse they knew the trainer was going to try and move shortly before he actually moved it? It reads like the horse was drugged on Dec 17 2018 and then moved the day after. The FBI was able to test the horse sometime inbetween there WHILE the trainer was actively trying to avoid the NJRC? That's some next level spy stuff

I'm thinking someone tipped the NJRC about the location and they were already working with the FBI. I can't figure out how these people thought they could lie about who was training the horse.

[clicknow]

How this pig is still training horses is beyond me.

The feed gurus and chemical vets have always stayed one step ahead of the testing technology.

Not to mention Snake venom and whatnot, etc.

And the mistake has been that we haven't stripped their licenses for life.....PERIOD.

Instead we allow them to get in line for huge purses. Bill Kasner has been saying it for years that big purses draw the best cheaters.

Is this some kind of "new" conversation here? I am not even a little bit shocked.

[clicknow]

Below the tip of the ice berg is the people who run the race tracks themselves. I imagine that is one huge cesspool of conflicts of interest that needs to be broken up. NO ONE associated with running a track or officiating one should allowed tho have ANY connection to the racing itself. Perhaps one of the three stewards at every track should be from the FBI.

Don't forget the vets.

The FBI has had how many ongoing investigations through the years at Penn Nat. Tell me what has really changed there?

We keep talking about all this stuff, but nothing ever happens. Everyone knows the score. That's why people are walking away from the sport. They got tired of waiting and have found other ways to spend their recreational income.

[Elkchester Road]

The FBI had McDonald's run an entire Monopoly Game when they knew the game was rigged, just so they could get more evidence on the culprits.

Based on that alone, it's pretty obvious they informed Churchill Downs Inc. that Maximum Security would be drugged they day he ran in the Kentucky Derby.

They couldn't let Churchill scratch him because they needed more evidence. Afterwards though, they could DQ him for anything that happened in the race.
Next level post. :):ThmbUp:

[cj]

Don't forget the vets.

The FBI has had how many ongoing investigations through the years at Penn Nat. Tell me what has really changed there?

We keep talking about all this stuff, but nothing ever happens. Everyone knows the score. That's why people are walking away from the sport. They got tired of waiting and have found other ways to spend their recreational income.

To be fair the stuff at Penn was small potatoes compared to this.

[minethatbird08]

Here’s the tricky part: If it is proven that Servis drugged Maximum Security for the Saudi Cup, could Saudi Arabia charge Servis with a crime? If so, Servis better never leave the USA ever again.

In general I think the USA should take care of criminals in house so to speak. However, if your scenario were to take place I would be completely okay turning Servis over to the Saudi Arabian authorities. Obviously, I’m biased here but sick of these types being allowed to hang around the sport.

[Elkchester Road]

Also, even if the trainer is a "pawn", the trainer has a legal and ethical obligation not to be one.

We lawyers face this all the time. Client asks us to do something we aren't allowed to do. We're supposed to say "no". And if we say "yes", we are on the hook along with our clients.

Thank you for posting this. :)

[dilanesp]

The feed gurus and chemical vets have always stayed one step ahead of the testing technology.

Not to mention Snake venom and whatnot, etc.

And the mistake has been that we haven't stripped their licenses for life.....PERIOD.

Instead we allow them to get in line for huge purses. Bill Kasner has been saying it for years that big purses draw the best cheaters.

Is this some kind of "new" conversation here? I am not even a little bit shocked.

The one good thing about this is that federal prison is real deterrence. I suspect a lot of people who cheat in contests (and I will make it a broad statement- obviously, cheating goes on in all sorts of contests) have no thought that what they are doing violates a bunch of federal laws and theoretically carries decades of prison time.

In that sense, this is somewhat similar to the college admissions scandal. Rich parents have pulled strings to get their undeserving kids into college for many decades, and never thought about any of it in terms of being a potential federal crime. The indictments and prosecutions not only put some people in prison who deserved to go there, but also are a very powerful deterrent to scheming parents in the future.

This sort of thing is a deterrent no matter how bad state regulation is. The notion that perhaps the federal government has a warrant and is listening to your communications and monitoring your purchase of substances could significantly chill future cheaters.

[garyscpa]

Below the tip of the ice berg is the people who run the race tracks themselves. I imagine that is one huge cesspool of conflicts of interest that needs to be broken up. NO ONE associated with running a track or officiating one should allowed tho have ANY connection to the racing itself. Perhaps one of the three stewards at every track should be from the FBI.

So now we trust the FBI?

[luisbe]

Mark Casse has been playing to the very bone lately.

[Tom]

So now we trust the FBI?

Compared to horse trainers and owners, yes. :rolleyes:

[Elkchester Road]

I have been advocating also suspending HORSES for bad drug tests.

If you think about it, owners and tracks would have much more to lose under this scenario, and maybe be more proactive in making sure trainers are more closely scrutinized and more harshly dealt with.

You would be correct. :)

[Irishfever]

I'm thinking someone tipped the NJRC about the location and they were already working with the FBI. I can't figure out how these people thought they could lie about who was training the horse.


There was an incident several months ago at a training centre where there was a van suspiciously parked outside. The police were called and found it was fbi doing surveillance.

I heard Saratoga harness was also on lockdown today and many other trainers activities being monitored when the news broke.

I guess at Bancas farm where Grasso's clients stay, no one was allowed to leave. One trainer had 11 horses scratched at Pocono. Apparently there might be more to come yet, especially guys using the vet Skelton in the midwest.

[onefast99]

Don't forget the vets.

The FBI has had how many ongoing investigations through the years at Penn Nat. Tell me what has really changed there?

We keep talking about all this stuff, but nothing ever happens. Everyone knows the score. That's why people are walking away from the sport. They got tired of waiting and have found other ways to spend their recreational income.

Penn got rid of a few bad apples but this is a lot bigger than any Penn investigation ever was. There will be lots of names dropped by the defendants during the plea process. This investigation will cloud the Kentucky Derby and every big race where the media will continue to report on it every chance they get. In the end people will go to jail and the general public will once again forget about those who cheat until the next group gets caught. Change will come at a price to the owners in new testing procedures but those who know how to beat the system will always be part of this industry.

[the little guy]

The FBI had McDonald's run an entire Monopoly Game when they knew the game was rigged, just so they could get more evidence on the culprits.

Based on that alone, it's pretty obvious they informed Churchill Downs Inc. that Maximum Security would be drugged they day he ran in the Kentucky Derby.

They couldn't let Churchill scratch him because they needed more evidence. Afterwards though, they could DQ him for anything that happened in the race.

Elvis has left the building!!!

[Cutter14]

I've been betting for over 60 years and knew the game was legit..ha ha ITS ALL ABOUT THE BIGGEST DRUG M-O-N-E-Y...I can only hope these S O B's get what they deserve..For starters put them under a stampede...NO TRIAL NECESSARY....GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY
..

[acorn54]

Penn got rid of a few bad apples but this is a lot bigger than any Penn investigation ever was. There will be lots of names dropped by the defendants during the plea process. This investigation will cloud the Kentucky Derby and every big race where the media will continue to report on it every chance they get. In the end people will go to jail and the general public will once again forget about those who cheat until the next group gets caught. Change will come at a price to the owners in new testing procedures but those who know how to beat the system will always be part of this industry.

riddle me this onefast. if what you say is true, how is that hong kong racing can be so above board?

or did elvis leave that building too:rolleyes:

[The_Turf_Monster]

This is prevalent on every circuit I've ever watched, you can see it when it happened in the gallop out or lack thereof. Get ready to see a lot of owners leave the game when they acknowledge that the mules they bought can't actually run. Likewise get ready to lose a lot of breeding operations when people realize that their bloodstock with a G1-winning pedigree was built on drugs and not talent. As much as I want to think this will help the game, I could also see it killing it. Not to mention that there are going to be a lot of horsemen that are going to disappear because we're going to find out that they're not really horsemen

[clicknow]

To be fair the stuff at Penn was small potatoes compared to this.

Sort of like Earth, compared to size of Saturn and Jupiter.........same solar system though. ;)

[clicknow]

This investigation will cloud the Kentucky Derby and every big race where the media will continue to report on it every chance they get. In the end people will go to jail and the general public will once again forget about those who cheat until the next group gets caught. Change will come at a price to the owners in new testing procedures but those who know how to beat the system will always be part of this industry.

This is what happens when you don't address things at the time they REQUIRE addressing.

Later on it just becomes more problematic as a crescendo builds.

Many people run their own personal lives this way.....so there would of course be the same type of corresponding dysfunctionality in a larger system made up of many individuals.

[Niko]

Catching up - so many great comments.

Horse racing officials share some blame as they tried to sweep everything under the rug, hiding it from fans. Class action lawsuits vs the tracks if they can prove they had any knowledge?

I'm so jaded I don't expect much to happen, but this appears to have some serious teeth to it. I'm still waiting for a race fixing indictment and guilty verdict.

[clocker7]

Keep in mind, SDNY, with Berman in charge, allowed Michael Cohen's attorney Lanny Davis to fashion a plea deal which smeared the President as Individual 1 in a conspiracy for months.

Then, two months ago, it told a federal judge in a plea resentencing hearing that Cohen was a lousy liar, his "evidence" was worthless, and that he should remain in prision for the full term.

I simply do not trust the federal government or the FBI anymore. Especially in the jurisdiction where Epstein's video cameras forgot to work. The timing of this when the Horse Racing Integrity Act was sinking stinks.

[taxicab]

Catching up - so many great comments.

Horse racing officials share some blame as they tried to sweep everything under the rug, hiding it from fans. Class action lawsuits vs the tracks if they can prove they had any knowledge?

I'm so jaded I don't expect much to happen, but this appears to have some serious teeth to it. I'm still waiting for a race fixing indictment and guilty verdict.

+1
Some thoughts:
Shouldn't Belinda Stronach quickly stand up and start railing trainers off of her property in Florida ?
If not.......she's the biggest hypocrite going.

Let's keep it real.......the tracks know,it's just that simple.........they allow it.
Under the category of "I'm a jaded,cynical horseplayer"......I don't believe for a second the race track operators are going to do any house cleaning that would require a shred of integrity on their part.........they'll just let the high profile types that get caught.......take the bullet,and let the next bunch of juicers have their way in a few years.
Has one race track made a statement today ?
How about Oaklawn, where every single sharp can see that Roberto Diodoro is cheating/juicing to the max ?
The next few weeks the tracks will only comment on those caught in the FBI sting........not one of them will finger a "new shooter".........greedy cowards.

[dilanesp]

So now we trust the FBI?

I don't. But you don't have to. They lay out the evidence in the indictments.

[metro]

How about Oaklawn, where every single sharp can see that Roberto Diodoro is cheating/juicing to the max ?
The next few weeks the tracks will only comment on those caught in the FBI sting........not one of them will finger a "new shooter".........greedy cowards.

Will be interesting to see how Diodoro does at Oaklawn over the next few weeks. Could be some wagering opportunities there as well as some other major tracks where these high % trainers stick out like a sore thumb.

[Someday Silent]

One must wonder if Coolmore will back out of their stud deal with Maximum Security? I imagine this whole situation more likely made a major impact on his worth as a stallion.

But consider that Coolmore bought into Justify. If a $16k claimer isn't supposed to win the Derby, an Eclipse, and that Saudi race, how can a horse who was a maiden in February win the entire Triple Crown?

[Someday Silent]

I will hold onto hope that something good will come of this mess, but it all sort of makes me want to cry.

[clicknow]

How about Oaklawn, where every single sharp can see that Roberto Diodoro is cheating/juicing to the max ?

He's always been doing that. Everyone knows the high % guys and the move-em-up guys like Servis. I try to bet against them and if I don't see a play, I skip the race.

I guess that's one way of doing it. I don't feel like I'm supporting them.

what I call Saturday trainers, mostly win on the weekends and easy to avoid, actually.

I like it when you see a horse like Drip Brew, Richard and Villafranco have been trading back and forth for 2 years now.

[acorn54]

i try to refrain from american races and focus on the flats in england and hong kong. personally it bothers my conscious to be involved in an american sport that turns a blind eye to animal cruelty.

[cutchemist42]

Yeah at this point after visiting the Hong Kong site a lot and seeing how transparent it is, it really shows how ugly American racing has become. Run the races like Hong Kong please.

[jay68802]

A statement from the Jockey Club.

Statement from The Jockey Club on the Investigation by the FBI and Department of Justice
Posted on March 9, 2020
Today the U.S. Attorney’s office for the Southern District of New York announced the indictment of 27 individuals in connection with doping in the horse racing industry. The Jockey Club has long been an advocate for drug reform in racing and we commend the actions of the FBI, the Department of Justice, and their collaborating enforcement agencies. We acknowledge that indictments are not convictions and charges are not conclusive of criminal guilt. Nevertheless, these events make it clear that federal law enforcement officials view the conduct alleged as serious, unlawful, and warranting substantial attention.

The Jockey Club understands that this investigation and the criminal investigation and related prosecutions will be painful and controversial, but the integrity of the sport and the health of all racehorses demanded action. From this point forward, it will be critical to the future of the sport that the reforms that are so badly needed are pressed forward by all segments of the industry — by everyone truly interested in clean competition and the safety and welfare of horse and rider.

Equine doping has long been a concern in racing circles, but one that has been difficult to investigate or prosecute effectively because the sport’s regulatory oversight has been diffused, and often lax, across more than 30 separate state regulatory and enforcement agencies. Most people in the sport have suspected that some level of doping occurs, but evidence has been mostly third hand and circumstantial, and real information was needed to define the problem and craft a path to a solution.

At the August 2016 meeting of The Jockey Club in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., The Jockey Club told members that it had engaged 5 Stones intelligence to analyze the then current state of investigative procedures and to make recommendations for improvement. 5 Stones is a leading private investigation company with offices around the world that played a major role in the World Anti-Doping Agency investigation that resulted in sanctions against Russia for doping in the Olympic Games.

5 Stones’ investigation produced indications of significant racehorse doping and active equine doping networks within the industry. This included information supporting findings that doping is often supported by enablers composed of trainers, veterinarians, pharmacists, stable staff, and in some instances, owners.

We have pledged our total cooperation as Federal authorities continue their investigations and prosecutions.

Share This

[hyipro]

At the August 2016 meeting ?????????????, does not say much for any kind
of action or oversight..................

[Robert Fischer]

Let's keep it real.......the tracks know,it's just that simple.........they allow it.
Under the category of "I'm a jaded,cynical horseplayer"......I don't believe for a second the race track operators are going to do any house cleaning that would require a shred of integrity on their part.........they'll just let the high profile types that get caught.......take the bullet,and let the next bunch of juicers have their way in a few years.

Yea, that's my hunch as well.

Yesterday's news was shocking. It was significant. It was enough to obviously shake up the implicated parties, but also to cause temporary concern to all of the big players in the doping game.

It was shocking, in that Service was implicated. Navarro less so (as he had previously drawn attention to himself).

The implications themselves were not shocking whatsoever (there was also no shock whatsoever that some of the star horses mentioned in this thread were receiving PEDs. This was already 100% known by myself, and I would assume most sharp observers.) Rather, the surprise comes because Service had been operating an operation that was otherwise renown for class, in partnership and acquaintance with, a relatively powerful collection of people.

Some trainers and owners may be bold, and one or two may be above even an FBI investigation for the time being, but I'd have to guess that the big players in the doping game will temporarily exercise caution in their doping. We've seen patterns when the spotlight gets hot, and then the big guys continue to win with impressive statistics, but their horses are more vulnerable than usual, occasionally regress or fail to fire, and aren't defying the limitations of typical racehorses. This is a big event. Some of the networks of the implicated parties reach out to some other obvious cases, in but a few degrees of separation. It should again cause a temporary pause. It has some implications in terms of analyzing and wagering on some of the big races this weekend and in the immediate future.

We did not just 'clean up the sport'.
We did not just find out a test that cleans up doping (I missed whether we'd even implemented a test that effectively detects whatever substances were mentioned). The big players in the doping game have a full house. They have redundancy. A substance may get 'hot', but it's not their first, or only substance. There is a market for such substances, and they are already getting pushed the alternatives.

You read some of these posts about steroids, or scopolamine, or clenbuterol, etc.. and some of the posts seem to imply that when news comes up that we've solved the issue, or that whatever particular substance is 'the big issue'. They aren't. We didn't.

[Half Smoke]

.....................................





I don't think it's even possible to clean up the sport

because of technology synthetic drugs can be manufactured that mimic the effects of the original drugs

there are no tests for these drugs and when there are they will simply manufacture a slightly different version that no test has been developed to detect

this is similar to what has happened with street drugs that druggies use to get high




https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/racing-integritys-newest-threat-human-designer-drugs/

[Zman179]

Needless to say this might get pushed back a few days.
https://www.theknot.com/us/tonianne-fuoco-and-nick-surick-mar-2020

[Saratoga_Mike]

Love the reaction from Servis' owners: shocked. Yes.

I wonder if Graham Motion will pick up any of these owners? :rolleyes:

[johnhenry81]

I wonder if this explains why Benter and Woods chose Hong Kong?

[groupie doll]

i try to refrain from american races and focus on the flats in england and hong kong. personally it bothers my conscious to be involved in an american sport that turns a blind eye to animal cruelty.
I am tempted to move in this direction myself... particularly since an indictment is not a guilty charge and I have little faith at this point that any long term positive changes will come from this in American racing even if they are found guilty and a punishment handed down.
I mean, I knew Navarro and Servis (etc.) were working the system, but they weren't getting caught and i chose to believe "innocent until proven", but some of the stuff these guys are pumping into the horses is just dreadful. Maybe now there will be some repercussions, but I'm not waiting around holding me breath.

I am at the point of watching but not betting, which I never thought I'd say, but I am finding it more difficult to overlook things and who knows what else is going on that we don't know about...


This is why i (and many others) have been railing for Federal oversight the past couple of decades. It's warranted at this point or the game is over.

[sammy the sage]

Reminds of the Steriods period in baseball...they turned a blind eye til they couldn't anymore...this is more widespread than we think unfortunately....

However...some will get thrown under the bus and some will be like Teflon Baffert...:pout: :rant: :puke:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Maximum Security moved to Baffert.

[groupie doll]

Maximum Security moved to Baffert.
Not surprising since the owner already has other horses with Baffert...

[pandy]

I don't trust Baffert, I think his results are too good to be true, plus he has had enough things happen in his career that raise suspicion. If Maximum Security races again, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't, he'll have to race clean and it's hard to imagine that he'll run anywhere near as well as he has.

[onefast99]

riddle me this onefast. if what you say is true, how is that hong kong racing can be so above board?

or did elvis leave that building too:rolleyes:

Simple, they have the most advanced testing and penalties in the world. Hong Kong also has the smallest horse population in the world and it is easier to manage under one jurisdiction that prides itself on integrity. They are also the most transparent track as well. Owners pay a fee in advance for the retirement of the horse(s) they own.
It would be an impossibility for US tracks to match this system.

[PaceAdvantage]

Simple, they have the most advanced testing and penalties in the world. Hong Kong also has the smallest horse population in the world and it is easier to manage under one jurisdiction that prides itself on integrity. They are also the most transparent track as well. Owners pay a fee in advance for the retirement of the horse(s) they own.
It would be an impossibility for US tracks to match this system.Yes, it's very easy to do everything "the right way" when everything is under one management team and one security team and one vet team etc. etc. etc.

I love when people try and point to Hong Kong as the model and think why can't that work over here? It should be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy, right?

[RunForTheRoses]

I don't trust Baffert, I think his results are too good to be true, plus he has had enough things happen in his career that raise suspicion. If Maximum Security races again, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't, he'll have to race clean and it's hard to imagine that he'll run anywhere near as well as he has.


I agree. I know earlier in the thread CJ mentioned his suspicions over the style of running tops off layoffs (just paraphrasing and not saying he agrees with my post here) but who is the maestro of that maneuver?

[GMB@BP]

.....................................





I don't think it's even possible to clean up the sport

because of technology synthetic drugs can be manufactured that mimic the effects of the original drugs

there are no tests for these drugs and when there are they will simply manufacture a slightly different version that no test has been developed to detect

this is similar to what has happened with street drugs that druggies use to get high




https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/racing-integritys-newest-threat-human-designer-drugs/

I agree, though you would think some of these people who have been in the trouble in the past, which some of these 27 people have been, would not have been let continue in the sport.

[the little guy]

I wonder if this explains why Benter and Woods chose Hong Kong?

They chose Hong Kong because of pool size/liquidity.

[onefast99]

I agree, though you would think some of these people who have been in the trouble in the past, which some of these 27 people have been, would not have been let continue in the sport.

Navarro was his own worst enemy when the “vegetable juice” video surfaced on August 4th 2017 and NJ had their chance to get rid of this trainer they simply slapped him on the wrist with a $5000 fine, why? Because his 100 plus horses at MP could have severely impacted racing there if those horses left. Three years later the guy gets taken down in a huge horse doping scandal with a Mr. Peabody trainer Jason Servis as well. This industry needs to stop the insanity of not removing those who are repeat offenders quick enough!

[dilanesp]

I agree. I know earlier in the thread CJ mentioned his suspicions over the style of running tops off layoffs (just paraphrasing and not saying he agrees with my post here) but who is the maestro of that maneuver?

One example that makes me not trust Baffert is Arrogate. That career looks very suspicious.

[dilanesp]

.....................................





I don't think it's even possible to clean up the sport

because of technology synthetic drugs can be manufactured that mimic the effects of the original drugs

there are no tests for these drugs and when there are they will simply manufacture a slightly different version that no test has been developed to detect

this is similar to what has happened with street drugs that druggies use to get high




https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/racing-integritys-newest-threat-human-designer-drugs/

It is never possible to clean up 100%. But it is possible to do a lot better than the sport is doing.

[Appy]

IMO lifetime bans are in order, but I doubt even that would stop them. They would just resume working behind the scene with others at the tracks who are willing to try anything to grab quick money.
Regardless, it's always nice when the good guys come through with a cleanup once in a while.

[Jeff P]

Yes, it's very easy to do everything "the right way" when everything is under one management team and one security team and one vet team etc. etc. etc.

I love when people try and point to Hong Kong as the model and think why can't that work over here? It should be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy, right?

It occurred to me the reason the cheating operations described in the indictments (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1256656/download) grew to become SO rampant and SO widespread is because here in the US we don't have anything like the Hong Kong Model.

Instead we have more than 30 individual state regulatory bodies where many of the people doing the regulating will look the other way if they can because they don't want to come down too harshly on one of their own.

The way most of them become regulators in the first place is when the Governor's Office appoints them from a short list of names provided by lobbyists from the local horsemen's alphabet group.

Imo, under such a system there's little chance of integrity.

Imo, our system here in the US is broken because the regulatory body isn't independent from those it is supposed to be regulating.

Had we adopted something like the Hong Kong model 10-15 years ago:

I think some of the US horsemen would still be making attempts to cheat. (At this point I'm half convinced it's embedded in their DNA.)

But I also think the cheating itself would be taking place on a much smaller scale because the regulatory body would be making an effort to I don't know... actually regulate.


-jp

.

[acorn54]

Yes, it's very easy to do everything "the right way" when everything is under one management team and one security team and one vet team etc. etc. etc.

I love when people try and point to Hong Kong as the model and think why can't that work over here? It should be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy, right?

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.
the "united states is too big, alibi", grows old. if you seek and expect excellence that is what you will get most times. if you just throw up your hands in despair, you become second rate in every thing. my two cents

[dilanesp]

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.
the "united states is too big, alibi", grows old. if you seek and expect excellence that is what you will get most times. if you just throw up your hands in despair, you become second rate in every thing. my two cents

Also, "the US is so big it will be impossible to achieve HK levels of cleanness" is a good argument. "The US is so big it is impossible to implement a much stricter regime analogous to Hong Kong" is not a good argument.

[Appy]

I don't trust Baffert, I think his results are too good to be true, plus he has had enough things happen in his career that raise suspicion. If Maximum Security races again, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't, he'll have to race clean and it's hard to imagine that he'll run anywhere near as well as he has.

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

I have thoroughbreds and appaloosa together here at home and enjoy watching them out in the pastures at leisure. They run a lot, just because they like to. I know which one has the most brilliant speed and I know which one has the highest cruising speed, and I know which one has the most endurance, but I can't predict for sure which one will get back to the barn first. It varies from one time to the next. Every now and then the mare that is by far the slowest of the bunch get's back in the lead. Blows my mind. Not a one of them has ever been introduced to any drugs other than their annuals. The Tbreds have all raced at the track, but it is surprising how often one of my Appies wins the run.
Horses are horses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

.

Epogen would, no?

[Jeff P]

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.
the "united states is too big, alibi", grows old. if you seek and expect excellence that is what you will get most times. if you just throw up your hands in despair, you become second rate in every thing. my two cents

Seek and expect excellence.

Now there's a novel concept.

When is the last time horseplayers could point to a state regulatory body and think excellence?




-jp

.

[GMB@BP]

One example that makes me not trust Baffert is Arrogate. That career looks very suspicious.

You would need to study horses that move on from baffert or are taken over buy baffert, neither of which happen much.

I am dubious of all successful trainers.

[Appy]

I don't pay enough attention to drugs to even know what Epogen is, but my answer would be no. It might make him run faster and longer than he normally WOULD, but I don't believe it would make him run faster than he COULD.

[GMB@BP]

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.


this is non sense.

wasnt it the Godolphin trainer that got popped a ways back, and yet he is still training for them after getting sacked for a time.

they may not be as brazen, there are rules being broken in those countries. Exception may be hong kong where the model is completely different.

[dilanesp]

You would need to study horses that move on from baffert or are taken over buy baffert, neither of which happen much.

I am dubious of all successful trainers.

The guy who owned Dortmund took all his horses away from Baffert a few years ago. Many ran worse for Art Sherman and Simon Callaghan.

[Robert Fischer]

Maximum Security moved to Baffert.

I feel for the Wests, although you can't say it wasn't an exciting ride. You never want something like this to happen, and he's got to be shocked and disappointed. Baffert is a hall of famer, and I'm sure that 'Max' will be in good hands.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't pay enough attention to drugs to even know what Epogen is, but my answer would be no. It might make him run faster and longer than he normally WOULD, but I don't believe it would make him run faster than he COULD.

Horses get tired, right? Epogen addresses that issue. Therefore, they tire less quickly and can effectively "run faster."

[clicknow]

i try to refrain from american races and focus on the flats in england and hong kong. personally it bothers my conscious to be involved in an american sport that turns a blind eye to animal cruelty.

Exactly this.

Many people do not really see themselves as *enablers*.

[pandy]

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

I have thoroughbreds and appaloosa together here at home and enjoy watching them out in the pastures at leisure. They run a lot, just because they like to. I know which one has the most brilliant speed and I know which one has the highest cruising speed, and I know which one has the most endurance, but I can't predict for sure which one will get back to the barn first. It varies from one time to the next. Every now and then the mare that is by far the slowest of the bunch get's back in the lead. Blows my mind. Not a one of them has ever been introduced to any drugs other than their annuals. The Tbreds have all raced at the track, but it is surprising how often one of my Appies wins the run.
Horses are horses.


Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.

[AltonKelsey]

Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.




yep


thats why juicers prefer speed types





old news, at least to me

[Irishfever]

Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.

Also help with extreme speed to get position. Ever notice how Navarro horses are ridden hard or Chris Oakes horses are driven extremely tuff, grab the front at all costs.

In the past guys guys gave a couple ccs of ACTH in the jugular to stimulate an adrenal dump. But like a battery its effect wears off it you keep doing it. Other "hotshots" became available and newer exotic stuff comes along.

So now you have a mixture of painkillers, bronchiodialators and blood builders and growth factors( for muscle repair). Throw in a stimulant and you get a horse than controls races, doesn't tire easily and can feel no pain.

Yes, most jurisdictions have known whats going on. They turn a blind eye bc they don't know how to handle it adequately. They hide behind the mantra " well we've conducted 100000 tests and .0000001 came back positive. (true story as I called the commission myself to report things)

Many tracks have torn down barns and have switch to ship-in barns only. That way they can be absolved from responsibility, how could we know what they are doing attitude which is why Hong Kong is so successful. There is intense scrutiny, veterinary records logged, who can administer meds etc.

In Ontario, I know they swept two major drug fiascos under the table primarily because it involved racing "royalty" and they didn't want to tarnish the sports image.

[GMB@BP]

The guy who owned Dortmund took all his horses away from Baffert a few years ago. Many ran worse for Art Sherman and Simon Callaghan.

Dortmund's form fell off with Baffert. Not a good example.

I dont remember all of them, some of them did win if I recall.

[dilanesp]

Dortmund's form fell off with Baffert. Not a good example.

I dont remember all of them, some of them did win if I recall.

I didn't say Dortmund's form fell. That's just how I remembered the owner. Kaleem Shah was his name, I think? Candy striped silks, I remember.

A bunch of his other horses started losing. I kept track for awhile.

[Suff]

Racing universe is circling around the “good guys” like Graham Motion.

No offense Graham, but you gotta go too. Thoroughbred racing needs to be gutted. Everybody who’s made money needs to go.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Racing universe is circling around the “good guys” like Graham Motion.

No offense Graham, but you gotta go too. Thoroughbred racing needs to be gutted. Everybody who’s made money needs to go.

So the guy who has been honest, racing against dishonest trainers, needs to go b/c he's made money?

[GMB@BP]

I didn't say Dortmund's form fell. That's just how I remembered the owner. Kaleem Shah was his name, I think? Candy striped silks, I remember.

A bunch of his other horses started losing. I kept track for awhile.

And now many of his stock or winning again, is it juice as well or talented stock?

[dilanesp]

And now many of his stock or winning again, is it juice as well or talented stock?

Different horses

[Suff]

After equibase sells us corrupt figures

And after racetracks rake the take

And after trainers and owners collude at the windows

And after every one in the business wets their beak.

Then, if I’m lucky enough to hit bingo.

It time to donate.



https://i.ibb.co/k5myLhX/85005874-F2-D1-4414-B418-E66024-BD4-AFD.jpg (https://ibb.co/BcnPhgB)



.


Every cashed ticket —- don’t you know. Not once a day but every single ticket you cash.

From Chad Brown on down... everything & everyone needs to go.

Its William Wallace time——Burn It.

[Suff]

So the guy who has been honest, racing against dishonest trainers, needs to go b/c he's made money?

Yes.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes.

Illogical.

[thaskalos]

Suff...I think you should stick to taking pictures.

[Mulerider]

Would having a centralized dispensary at the track though which all medications must be purchased with a vet prescription do any good?

[johnhenry81]

After equibase sells us corrupt figures

And after racetracks rake the take

And after trainers and owners collude at the windows

And after every one in the business wets their beak.

Then, if I’m lucky enough to hit bingo.

It time to donate.



https://i.ibb.co/k5myLhX/85005874-F2-D1-4414-B418-E66024-BD4-AFD.jpg (https://ibb.co/BcnPhgB)



.


Every cashed ticket —- don’t you know. Not once a day but every single ticket you cash.

From Chad Brown on down... everything & everyone needs to go.

Its William Wallace time——Burn It.



good grief Suff, William Wallace? How did that end for WW?

[Suff]

I knew. I had a rough sketch of what was going on. Go into my gulfstream pic thread. See here.

www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155672&page=17

If I knew, they all knew.

[big frank]

The owners are always let off the hook........if the horse you own comes up positive , then the owner should be fined and given a suspension.............don't insult us West ! You never had an idea Servis was doing anything wrong ? Give me a break.......it's obvious this guy has been juicing and if you didn't know that you are not being honest ! There are certain owners who employ these juice guys for years....... A guy like Dubb in ny has had at least 5 trainers and they all were juice guys....Maybe Dubb has a juice vet on payroll....There are certain owners who use a revolving door of juice guys and they always win at high rates ! Rockingham-Hronis-Dubb--drawing away stables--gary barber--end zone athletics--Bone---flying p stable--jagger inc--ron paolucci--just to name a few

[PaceAdvantage]

So can someone spell out for me exactly what that building is that Suff circled? What is its "official" purpose.

[ctownraces@bp]

yep


thats why juicers prefer speed types





old news, at least to me


Look at who ever trains for Robert Cole Jr. great example in my book. David Wells Kevin Patterson always speed. Always have thought Cole was one of the biggest druggers in racing not facts just my opinion. Look at his numbers.

[clicknow]

I love when people try and point to Hong Kong as the model and think why can't that work over here?

You are correct, that model won't work here as presently constituted and even when not as presently constituted...... too many things are ENTIRELY different and will remain so.

But there are a few things we could look at. There are always some good idea that can be taken away from other systems.

No claiming races for instance, for me, would be a good thing. That is JMHO.


IF somebody prefers the Hong Kong model then my suggestion is to play there. Importing that system to here is not going to work here at all. It's really such an entirely different model.

[clicknow]

Racing universe is circling around the “good guys” like Graham Motion.

Christophe Clement is another good example. There are actually plenty more.

Many are the little guys with little barns who work day in and day out who are really more hurt by the cheaters than anyone else. Big barns have more horses and win some that allows them to sustain.....the little guys are really more hurt by the cheaters.

Getting rid of the bad guys, whether big or little should be the target. So I disagree with your baby out with the bathwater idea.

[jay68802]

One of the companys mentioned in the indictments was also mentioned here in 2016. The sports disenterest in doing anything is amazing.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/click-cheat-online-peddlers-racehorse-snake-oil-go-largely-unchecked/

[JustRalph]

Good post

[big frank]

Look at who ever trains for Robert Cole Jr. great example in my book. David Wells Kevin Patterson always speed. Always have thought Cole was one of the biggest druggers in racing not facts just my opinion. Look at his numbers. Perfect example indeed ! this guy has been juicing for years with several trainers....When Lake was in his prime drugging days --Cole was his big client ! To be honest for years i have paid more attention to the owners when it comes to the drug factor........ I caught some huge longshots in ny when James Ferraro was training only 3 or 4 for a big drug owner........and they won off the claim a few times at big odds....nobody was paying attention to who the owner was and was going by the 5 percent Ferraro had off the claim.........was short lived but i would not be shocked if it happened again.....Anyone remember the magic Joe Parker was performing last winter ??? guess he forgot how to train in 9 months ?

[Appy]

You are correct, that model won't work here as presently constituted and even when not as presently constituted...... too many things are ENTIRELY different and will remain so.

But there are a few things we could look at. There are always some good idea that can be taken away from other systems.

No claiming races for instance, for me, would be a good thing. That is JMHO.


IF somebody prefers the Hong Kong model then my suggestion is to play there. Importing that system to here is not going to work here at all. It's really such an entirely different model.

Claiming races is one of the very few options in racing that make it possible for those who are not rich to participate as players in the sport.
Eliminating claiming conditions would be tantamount to declaring that only North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas can compete for the title in the NCAA basketball tournament, or that if you are not a white male you have no vote, or that if you happen to be an owner you can only place your horse with a trainer selected by some track official. Claiming conditions are the lifeblood of American horse racing as a viable sport for the public at large.

[Tom]

.....................................





I don't think it's even possible to clean up the sport

because of technology synthetic drugs can be manufactured that mimic the effects of the original drugs

there are no tests for these drugs and when there are they will simply manufacture a slightly different version that no test has been developed to detect

this is similar to what has happened with street drugs that druggies use to get high

I can't be cleaned up until we stop calling it a sport. It is not a sport,. Is not remotely close to a sport. or is it a game. It is a business, a gambling business, Period.

Racing needs to be treated just like Las Vegas, every bit as strict, every bit as secure. Uniform rules, uniform penalties, plenty of third party oversight.

Those who participate in the business cannot be involved in the regulation of it.

[GMB@BP]

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

[the little guy]

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

Greg, I realize you've become incredibly bitter, and I'm sorry for that, but this is BS. Horseplayers have an absolute right to play on a level playing field, and whether or not we "knew" something was going on, does not mean we weren't wronged.

Many players bet multi-race bets. How about the Pick-4s and/or Pick-5s we have all hit that included a Servis 4:5 shot, but while we cashed for ( say ) $500, we also had the 12:1 shot that ran second to that horse, and we might have won $4K had that horse not been effectively cheated out of a win. I suppose, according to you, that's our fault. Well, I have news for you....it's not.

Most don't actually cheat, despite what you ( or anyone ) thinks. Some have, and probably some still do ( though I am guessing a lot of them are starting to think twice going forward ), but stop condemning an entire group because of the dishonest actions of some.

[Suff]

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

I’m going to the Gulfstream friday. I ENJOY IT. As far as gamble-gamble? Not a chance. I play horses for amusement. Tiny money.

[acorn54]

i am with tom on this one. tom is right, there is a conflict of interest, definitely.
with publicly traded companies you have an outside agency,(sec), watching over the hen house. and to check the legitimacy of the record keeping you have independent auditors who come in and audit the books and give their unqualified/qualified opininion. the financial records are available for public perusal.
that's what is needed transparency and accountancy, and swift enforcement of violations of standards.

[spiketoo]

Those who participate in the business cannot be involved in the regulation of it.

Oh yeah? Well, the director of regulatory and scientific affairs at the North American Meat Institute (just love that name) thinks otherwise - "It's always great to have options!"

USDA Offers Pork Companies A New Inspection Plan

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/09/17/761682926/usda-changes-rules-overseeing-how-pork-is-produced

[Lono]

What does this do too the Fig makers and Handicappers who sell info? Did they know the game wasn't on the up and up? If they did know why are they allowed to keep selling theirs products in a fixed game? is this a carnival?
WHAT ABOUT THE BETTORS? As usual no one cares.
Thru all this the bettors were only mentioned once in all the articles I read. I've been betting horses since 1965, the end is not near the END is here, screw you horse racing.
If you are STUPID enough to think this is only Servis and the Big Mouth you deserve what you get if you keep supporting this Corrupt Sport.

[cj]

Claiming races is one of the very few options in racing that make it possible for those who are not rich to participate as players in the sport.
Eliminating claiming conditions would be tantamount to declaring that only North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas can compete for the title in the NCAA basketball tournament, or that if you are not a white male you have no vote, or that if you happen to be an owner you can only place your horse with a trainer selected by some track official. Claiming conditions are the lifeblood of American horse racing as a viable sport for the public at large.

Horses don't have to be bought through the claim box. If those races go away, horses will still be sold, but now they could be examined by they buyer's vet before the sale.

The claiming game has become similar to flipping houses except the houses are living creatures that deserve better. There was a time it was fine, but things like eliminating jail time and skewed claiming tag to purse ratios have ruined it. Claiming races were the best betting races when I started in the sport 35 years ago. Now they are the worst IMO.

[dilanesp]

I would caution everyone who is immediately declaring who the "good guys" are.

In track and field, we heard for years about how Carl Lewis and several other people (often American athletes- the media portrayed PED's as a "foreign" problem, and still does) were the "good guys". It turned out Carl Lewis was the Justify of track and field- he was caught doping in the 1984 Olympic Trials and they suppressed the test. His quest to equal Jesse Owens with 4 gold medals at the (eastern bloc boycotted) 1984 Olympics was too important to track and field.

In baseball, we also heard for years about how Alex Rodriguez was clean as opposed to those "dirty" players like McGwire and Canseco and Bonds. Rodriguez turned out to be a big time doper.

My point is not to impugn any specific person, but rather to say that human nature wants to divide the world into good guys and bad guys, when what really happens is once you find out your competitors are doping, there's immense pressure to dope as well. Ben Johnson was disqualified from the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100 meters; it turned out of the 9 starters in the race, 8 of them were proven to be dopers. Johnson was just the one to get caught in a post-race test.

It is most likely the case in horse racing that the vast majority of successful trainers are dopers. That's how these things work. That's how it worked in track and field, that's how it worked in cycling, that's how it worked in baseball. There are no "good guys".

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would caution everyone who is immediately declaring who the "good guys" are.



You watch how their horses perform when they move to new trainers.

[dilanesp]

You watch how their horses perform when they move to new trainers.

Top class horses aren't moving around very much. So it's harder to detect doping. So if many of these stakes trainers are doping, you wouldn't necessarily know it.

I agree that "First off Claim" percentage is a pretty reasonable metric for doping of claiming horses.

[GMB@BP]

Greg, I realize you've become incredibly bitter, and I'm sorry for that, but this is BS. Horseplayers have an absolute right to play on a level playing field, and whether or not we "knew" something was going on, does not mean we weren't wronged.

Many players bet multi-race bets. How about the Pick-4s and/or Pick-5s we have all hit that included a Servis 4:5 shot, but while we cashed for ( say ) $500, we also had the 12:1 shot that ran second to that horse, and we might have won $4K had that horse not been effectively cheated out of a win. I suppose, according to you, that's our fault. Well, I have news for you....it's not.

Most don't actually cheat, despite what you ( or anyone ) thinks. Some have, and probably some still do ( though I am guessing a lot of them are starting to think twice going forward ), but stop condemning an entire group because of the dishonest actions of some.

I am bitter, we agree.

Horseplayers have an absolute right to a level playing field...we agree again (this a record?)

Wronged in the context of a right to a level playing field, not wronged in terms of being cheated out of ones money, as some have claimed.

[jay68802]

Some rumors floating about.

Kirk Ziadie - Suspended
Ralph Ziadie - Suspended
Georgina Baxter - Suspended

and more coming?

http://www.horseracingnation.com/news/Reactions_to_indictments_in_horse_racing_doping_sc heme_123

[Suff]

We mess with animals. Even in the name of love pet owners stuff all manner of things into animals. We mess with cows & chickens using growth hormones. We even mess with seeds and soil to grow better.

Can’t be stopped.

[thaskalos]

What we need going forward is a complete list of the "honest" trainers...so we can tell which past performances are repeatable, and which are not.

[the little guy]

I am bitter, we agree.

Horseplayers have an absolute right to a level playing field...we agree again (this a record?)

Wronged in the context of a right to a level playing field, not wronged in terms of being cheated out of ones money, as some have claimed.

No, they have been cheated out of money, just as anyone that has competed against them has also been cheated.

[Tom]

What we need going forward is a complete list of the "honest" trainers...so we can tell which past performances are repeatable, and which are not.

Trust no one.
There is no room for trust in the industry - only proof of compliance to strict rules. As verified by independent third parties.

Reading the indictment, The POS Servis should be sent away for life. Every horse he trains from 2018 on should be DQ'd and the owners forced to repay the purse money.

Every track in the country should be up late this week discussing what they are going to do about protecting the players....:lol::lol::lol:

[GMB@BP]

No, they have been cheated out of money, just as anyone that has competed against them has also been cheated.

Its like complaining about a lake of oxygen when you climb Mt Everest.

[turfnsport]

I'm sure someone can run it, I'd like to see a breakdown by owners on win % and first off the claim % for both trainers. Might be some interesting results.

Looch is saying on Twitter he did not know and did poorly with his horses with Navarro.

[Suff]

Illogical.

Not really. Glib yes. But as a precedent its used in toxic situations like this.

Many examples but recall sandusky nuked penn state. A Pound of Flesh is warranted here. Everybody in racing needs to suffer, to the point of ending independent trainers.

[lamboguy]

i suspect we are all going to be seeing commercials on televisions asking if anyone has been damaged by the trainer's and owners of these horses and should receive compensation, just like they do with the Mesothelioma.

[GMB@BP]

I'm sure someone can run it, I'd like to see a breakdown by owners on win % and first off the claim % for both trainers. Might be some interesting results.

Looch is saying on Twitter he did not know and did poorly with his horses with Navarro.

War Story?

[GMB@BP]

I'm sure someone can run it, I'd like to see a breakdown by owners on win % and first off the claim % for both trainers. Might be some interesting results.

Looch is saying on Twitter he did not know and did poorly with his horses with Navarro.

You mean like John Sadler when trains a Hronis Racing horse?

[Secondbest]

How about the Vets that were indicted. Aren't they there to see to the well being of the horses. These people are worse than the trainers. i hope they do the max.

[Suff]

For the record, Chad Brown & Graham Motion get horses that don’t need PED’s. And if they do, his owner base has a tolerance to walk away from 6 figure horses by dropping into claimers.

Centennial Farms does that. If they can’t run or breed, sell them.

Then we get this mess.

[GMB@BP]

Steve Byk's show today was great. Man was Graham Motion getting upset as he went along.

[dilanesp]

i suspect we are all going to be seeing commercials on televisions asking if anyone has been damaged by the trainer's and owners of these horses and should receive compensation, just like they do with the Mesothelioma.

Unlikely. The legal doctrines are pretty clear that bettors can't sue over stuff like this.

[clicknow]

Some rumors floating about.

Kirk Ziadie - Suspended
Ralph Ziadie - Suspended
Georgina Baxter - Suspended

and more coming?


Not sure those names would actually be a big suprise to anyone? Certainly not Ziadie?

[clicknow]

What we need going forward is a complete list of the "honest" trainers...so we can tell which past performances are repeatable, and which are not.

No, what we need is for the Horseracing Integrity Act to be brought to the front burner and approved, which would put USADA in charge of drugs & create uniformity in all states for rules & regulations.

Then people like some here wouldn't feel so bitter, and it would also get bettors who have walked away from U.S. horse racing back into the game, and others like me who have drastically reduced their *investment* in races that are held in the U.S. to open their wallets again.

[Suff]

Its like complaining about a lake of oxygen when you climb Mt Everest.

Wish you wouldn't see it that way. See it the same way you’re explaining it “cheating now, cheating then, cheating forever”. So why not burn it is my point.

I have Suffolk real-life race fixing in my theater. Now its called “they knew”.

[azeri98]

Most times when trainers get busted and are outed they are never the same, Drug O'neill, "King Cobra" Jaime Ness, among others never reach those same winning percentages. I'm waiting for the shoe to drop on Diodoro, McKnight, Joe Sharp. I always thought Rudy Rodriquez doped his horses in cycles. There should be a lifetime ban. The deterrent isn't big enough.

[Suff]

I wonder if the FBI has already sent “perserve & protect betting records “ using subpoena’s“ to ADW’s.

Maybe they’ve already penetrated the wagering accounts but maybe not. I’m sure they have shit-ton of medication related evidence, but I want to see the wagers.

Its a long snake from the backside to the windows.

I imagine there’s dozens of people trying to delete their betting accounts right about now. Its a long snake, friends, family, shills.

[cj]

I wonder if the FBI has already sent “perserve & protect betting records “ using subpoena’s“ to ADW’s.

Maybe they’ve already penetrated the wagering accounts but maybe not. I’m sure they have shit-ton of medication related evidence, but I want to see the wagers.

Its a long snake from the backside to the windows.

I imagine there’s dozens of people trying to delete their betting accounts right about now. Its a long snake, friends, family, shills.

Guessing these guys were betting somewhere that gave healthy rebates. Now we know where all the late action on Bon Raison on Saturday came from.

Nothing would surprise me. Were they betting heavy? Working with computer betting teams? Fixing races among themselves? It's all on the table IMO. Greedy cheaters have no boundaries.

[thaskalos]

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

You don't sympathize with the horseplayer because you say that he wasn't duped or wronged...since he "knew all along what he was getting into". But then you say that "Racing was wronged". Which facet of "Racing" do you suppose was wronged due to not knowing what was really going on in the game? Who in the game can honestly say that he was "duped"...since the horseplayer is not afforded this luxury? Or do you mean by "Racing" this faceless entity which amounts to little more than just the game's "reputation"?

[dilanesp]

I sympathize with the horseplayers.

Legally, GB is correct- the law leaves few outs for people who are cheated by betting coups. I suppose that's correct doctrinally; it would just open up too much of a can of worms to allow suits, and GB isn't wrong that horseplayers know that there's some possibility of chicanery when they play the horses and price that in to their decision to play.

But nonetheless, there's a difference between knowing that you live in a high crime neighborhood and that your house might be broken into, and consenting to a break-in. Horseplayers didn't consent to this, and the fact is that everyone who is cheating is injuring a whole bunch of people, including competitors, tracks, their own horses, but among the injured are horseplayers.