If you want to dance, you gotta pay the band - Whip Abuse

[Scanman]

Mike Smith and Irad Ortiz got a nice reminder concerning the use of the whip overseas: https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/Jockeys_Smith_Ortiz_fined_and_suspended_for_Saudi_ Cup_rides_123#

I wouldn't be surprised if the owner covers the fine, but I do hope their suspensions are honored upon their return.

In the words of the greatest rider of all time - Willie Shoemaker once said, "'I guess more horses are whipped out of the winner's enclosure than whipped into it".

So true!

[davew]

Why would the owner cover a $210K fine?

Do you think the whipping caused the drift?

[Scanman]

Why would the owner cover a $210K fine?

Do you think the whipping caused the drift?If the owner's instructions were to "win at all costs", then the rider had the green light, provided the owner agreed to cover the fine. Though, punishing the rider is not the answer. Until the rules are changed to DQ the horse and all purse money is lost, riders will continue to violate the rules.

Maybe, though in this case, it looks like it was Irad's intention to herd/block/interfere with Maximum Security. I've seen plenty of occasions when the whipping action had caused a horse to veer right or left.

[ubercapper]

If the owner's instructions were to "win at all costs", then the rider had the green light, provided the owner agreed to cover the fine. Though, punishing the rider is not the answer. Until the rules are changed to DQ the horse and all purse money is lost, riders will continue to violate the rules.

Maybe, though in this case, it looks like it was Irad's intention to herd/block/interfere with Maximum Security. I've seen plenty of occasions when the whipping action had caused a horse to veer right or left.


Punishing the rider "is" the answer. They can choose to violate the rules or not, regardless of instructions.


American Jockeys need to start riding as if these whip rules are in place, because they will be soon enough. You can watch countless races and see horses veering in the opposite direction of the whip as if jockeys don't realize they don't like it.



I recently watched the Hyacinth Stakes from Japan and noted the decided lack of whipping (compared to American races) as well as the fact all the horses ran straight and appeared to be giving their best efforts. Note the winner was given a total of two strikes the entire length of the stretch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tLqNdd-f8

[Tom]

Isn't the whip an integral tool in herding? :lol:

American riders should be doing a LOT of things differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWlTlplbISY

[Suff]

I checked and Saudi Arabia has no PETA. Now what twitter?

[Robert Fischer]

Maybe, though in this case, it looks like it was Irad's intention to herd/block/interfere with Maximum Security. I've seen plenty of occasions when the whipping action had caused a horse to veer right or left.

Officially, the fines were whip infractions, and had nothing to do with the herding from Ortiz in the stretch of the Saudi cup.

as an aside regarding the herding itself; Leave your guesses as to 'intent' out of the whole equation.

intent is irrelevant
these are skilled jocks who can whip righty while herding right, or vice versa

[BlueChip@DRF]

For a second I thought you were advertising for a band called Whip Abuse.

I would like to see races (especially maiden races) run without the whip. Why beat up something that doesn't understand just yet? Has there ever been a superstar horse that ran good enough to win just by shaking the reigns? How many times was Secretariat whipped in his Belmont Stakes run?

I've seen the windmill technique used in the Australian circuit. But this was back 15-20 years ago.

[SharpCat]

Punishing the rider "is" the answer. They can choose to violate the rules or not, regardless of instructions.


American Jockeys need to start riding as if these whip rules are in place, because they will be soon enough. You can watch countless races and see horses veering in the opposite direction of the whip as if jockeys don't realize they don't like it.



I recently watched the Hyacinth Stakes from Japan and noted the decided lack of whipping (compared to American races) as well as the fact all the horses ran straight and appeared to be giving their best efforts. Note the winner was given a total of two strikes the entire length of the stretch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tLqNdd-f8


You must have missed the horse on the 4-5 lengths back on the rail in the red and white silks. He was given 15 strikes before he reach the final 100yds.

[SharpCat]

I've seen the windmill technique used in the Australian circuit. But this was back 15-20 years ago.


You still windmill technique used in Australia especially in a close finish. They changed there whip rules in 2009. Jockeys are allowed no more than 5 strikes prior to the final 100yds, from which point there are no restrictions.

[Afleet]

Mike Smith and Irad Ortiz got a nice reminder concerning the use of the whip overseas: https://www.horseracingnation.com/news/Jockeys_Smith_Ortiz_fined_and_suspended_for_Saudi_ Cup_rides_123#

I wouldn't be surprised if the owner covers the fine, but I do hope their suspensions are honored upon their return.

In the words of the greatest rider of all time - Willie Shoemaker once said, "'I guess more horses are whipped out of the winner's enclosure than whipped into it".

So true!

Ortiz fine well deserved; Mike Smith not so much

[Scanman]

Officially, the fines were whip infractions, and had nothing to do with the herding from Ortiz in the stretch of the Saudi cup.

as an aside regarding the herding itself; Leave your guesses as to 'intent' out of the whole equation.

intent is irrelevant
these are skilled jocks who can whip righty while herding right, or vice versa
Your comment about the fines is pointless. I already knew what the fines were for.

I was answering davew's question - Do you think the whipping caused the drift? Your reference to my response to his question is also pointless. My answer to davew was simply my opinion. You're free to agree or disagree with it.

This thread is about how the use of the whip and the rules that apply outside the US verses our rules here. If you can't post comments that are applicable to the thread, then move on to a different thread or start your own concerning herding.

[Scanman]

Punishing the rider "is" the answer. They can choose to violate the rules or not, regardless of instructions.


American Jockeys need to start riding as if these whip rules are in place, because they will be soon enough. You can watch countless races and see horses veering in the opposite direction of the whip as if jockeys don't realize they don't like it.



I recently watched the Hyacinth Stakes from Japan and noted the decided lack of whipping (compared to American races) as well as the fact all the horses ran straight and appeared to be giving their best efforts. Note the winner was given a total of two strikes the entire length of the stretch.]I agree with most of what you wrote. I just believe that there would be a greater incentive for an owner not to have his rider "win at all costs", violate the rules and if the financial goal is achieved; the owner would cover whatever fine the rider received.

If the owner were to lose all purse money via a DQ for a rider violating the whip rules, then likelihood of the "win at all costs" instruction would cease and the rider would have no incentive to violate the rules.

[Scanman]

For a second I thought you were advertising for a band called Whip Abuse.

Too funny! Perhaps a DEVO cover band.:headbanger:

[dilanesp]

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/smiths-saudi-suspension-to-be-upheld-in-california/