Job prospects slim for US programmers

[Secretariat]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=711&e=10&u=/usatoday/20041014/tc_usatoday/endangeredspeciesusprogrammers

[JustRalph]

For 20 years education reformers have predicted this. Why does it surprise you? For many years the Education system in this country has lagged behind those countries that are "suddenly" taking our jobs. I distinctly remember the news mags interviewing the first groups of Tech concentrated schools in India and Japan. They all have targeted this market for years. They are winning the battle. Let me give you a little hint.........the programmers over there are generally considered better.

The programmer types quoted in the article are basically asking for protectionism. Protectionism doesn't work..........ask the steel workers.........

[Secretariat]

JR,

Tell Dave Schwartz the programmers over there are better. Hogwash...They work cheaper, and corps profit the difference. It's as simple as that

[Dave Schwartz]

Sec,

Actually, JR is probably right. The big thing is that they are so grateful to have jobs that they work like slaves. When was the last time you heard an American (especially a young one) say "I am really thankful for my job?"

Of course, on an indivdual level, there are some people with more talent than others. <G>



Dave

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Sec,

Actually, JR is probably right. The big thing is that they are so grateful to have jobs that they work like slaves. When was the last time you heard an American (especially a young one) say "I am really thankful for my job?"

Of course, on an indivdual level, there are some people with more talent than others. <G>

Dave

Dave,

I disagree that foreign programmers are better. I've seen no studies to indicate that. You are right that they work like slaves, and are paid pretty much like it. Beleive me I talk to a lot of Americans who say I am really thankful for my job. THey're just trying to hold onto an American way of life, rather than living with 5 other people to get by.

The bottom line is we are losing one more industry. I am just curious. Bush says the answer is in education. If you had to tell a young man or woman to choose a profession what profession would you suggest young men go into?

I figure your main options are:

1. The military.
2. Nursing
3. Walmart

As to manufacturing....there are no more manufacturing jobs in this country for upcoming people to deveote their life to. It is a sad commentary that peope have to spend fortunes to train for a profession, and then that profession becomes obsolete, and they then have to borrow and retrain again.

Bush kept mentioning No Child Left Behind in the Debates rather than address jobs. Not once did he address displaced workers. No Child Left Behind is a high school program.

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Beleive me I talk to a lot of Americans who say I am really thankful for my job. THey're just trying to hold onto an American way of life, rather than living with 5 other people to get by.


Spoken like a person connected somehow with politics---and total bs.

As far as programmers from India being better than US progammers--I don't know---but I can tell you that my company has a lot of outside programming done and it is done locally by Indian immigrants (US citizens) and they are not cheap.

[sq764]

"I figure your main options are:

1. The military.
2. Nursing
3. Walmart"


Sec, are you completely out of your mind or just drunk tonight?? If you work hard enough and learn, you can do whatever you want to do.. If you want to study to be a nurse, you can make $75K right out of college..

Any parent would have to be a flat out ass to say that to a teenager..

[Tom]

I think after the election, Sec will be going against Kerry for the Wal Mart greeter position.
BTW Sec, thanks for your daily propaganda post from the DNC. Thoughts and ideas so easy to have when they are not your own:eek:

[Equineer]

Few of the good systems programmers from my era had to work more than a dozen years. From 1975 through 1981, when I was in Silicon Valley, you couldn't go to lunch without getting a job pitch with stock options.

This week, I read about three new "Valley kids" who recently sold their E-mail application to Yahoo for $25+ Million... total elapsed time from scratch startup to sale was less than 12 months. They initially funded themselves by selling a car.

There is still opportunity for talent that is willing to sign in rather than punch a clock.

[hurrikane]

Equineer. you are exactly right. And that is the american dream. Not guarenteed a job by the frigging government.

Why do so many people in this county walk around with and attitude of entitlement.

Wake up, suit up, go kick some ass and quit all the friggin whining.

[ljb]

Bush says education is the answer.
from SQ764
If you want to study to be a nurse, you can make $75K right out of college..

Tell that to a 48 year old who just lost his/her job.

[sq764]

Wow, who knew there was a 48 year old age cap on nurses now..

Thanks for the newsflash LJB.. Your posts are actually getting dumber each day leading up to the election.. Must be a Dem thing

[chickenhead]

Bright people (like all of us :D ) will always find a way to do well....I don't think that has changed or will change...I am a little worried about people that just plain aren't packing a lot of horsepower, their prospects are looking pretty dim. Worse than they were 20 years ago. They are competing with the world now.

We need to have a much smarter education system....

[Secretariat]

Myth?

Not quite.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6530638

[sq764]

Sec, who said it was a myth?

The thread was pointing out that if you bust your ass, there are plenty of opportunities out there.. period..

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by sq764
Sec, who said it was a myth?

The thread was pointing out that if you bust your ass, there are plenty of opportunities out there.. period..

For nurses, Walmart, temporary help...

My post was about programmers....there isn't plenty of opportunity out there for a person with a BS in Computer Science or Info Technolgy anymore. THe Reuters article reinforces that.

Yes, it is wonderful that India has prgoramers who'll work for peanuts, but it's a sad commentary that thousands of young No Child Left Behinders who've been advised to go into Info Technology and have amassed college loans are now told to suck up that college debt, forget your BS and go back to a Community Collge to learn how to be a nurse or operate a Forklift or be a Walmart Greeter. I don't consider this economic progress. I realize that you do.

[Dave Schwartz]

Sec,

I can mostly agree with you. Today's "programmer" is not the same as those of 20, or even 15 years ago.

When I began programming (during the late stone age - 1979), programmers came from two directions: colleges and self-taught hobbyists. While superficially that has not changed (i.e. people are still learning on there own), it is almost impossible to get a job in corprate America if you aren't "papered."

BTW, the same thing was true of engineers back then. There were many "bootstrap" engineers that learned by OJT and a little night school. They had no problems getting a job without a degree.

That has all changed now.

And another thing that has changed is the horizontal skill level of the programmer. Most corporate IT departments have gotten so large over the years that people specialize more. Where it used to be one programmer that did it all (and therefore had to know it all), now there is a web specialist, a database specialist, a communication specialist, etc.

As things have become more specialized the job definition of the project manager has changed tremendously as well. In fact, every manager position fits into this category. The question is: "How much can you get from your people for the least amount of money?"

SInce they wrok cheaper off-shore, managers look there for the cheaper answer.

Even at Wal-mart this is true. Those management guys at Wal-mart do wonders with low-income people. Same at the fast food restaurants.


In my opinion (and this is not something that I haven't said before) both Dems and Reps are selling us down the river by permitting jobs to leave this country without the appropriate tariffs on the products coming back. Bush's administration is doing it now, but don't forget that Clinton did it in a far bigger way. If you doubt that, just look at NAFTA and all the jobs that went to China.

I really hope that someday the Left and the "lower-case" Right (i.e. worker bees who have a conservative bent) can come to understand that big business traverses both parties and that they are the real "enemy" (for lack of a better word).


As always, your response was well thought and well-stated (although I certainly reserve the right to disagree with you often <G>). Thanks for taking the time.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[sq764]

There isn't a lot of opportunity for a 5'5" white guy in the NBA, so those people need to look elsewhere for a job..

Do you know how many people have jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with their degree?? Me for one..

The world doesn't work the way your mind does (thank God).. You seem to be implying that every person that works towards a degree in college should have a job available for them, IN THEIR MAJOR... This is just a ridiculous thought..

How many people do you know are doing exactly what they wanted to do in their job? How many are even doing anything related to their major?

[chickenhead]

as a "bootstrap" engineer myself, I'm happy to say that opportunities still exist....it's not easy, but what's the fun in doing things that are easy? I find in general people are much more interested in "what can you do" vs. "what degree do you have"...once your foot is in the door you will sink or swim on your own merit either way...

As for programmers...I know many who are doing just fine, two of them I know very well because the company I helped found hired them.....we started 3 years ago in about the worst business climate you could find for a tech start-up, yet here we are still in business looking to hire more people.....

[Dave Schwartz]

Chickenhead,

I'd say that the best chance for a "bootstrap" kind of guy would be in the small dot-com world. At a small company you've got a much better chance that the hiring decision is based upon merit as opposed to just "From where did you graduate?" and "Who have your worked for in the past?"

I have a cousin who has worked all over the aerospace industry in the last 40 years; Teledyne, Hughes, even Rockwell at one time. But now he finds that with no college degree, his options are very limited. And he also struggles with the fact that his "qualification level" places him at a salary about 30-40% above the recent college graduate.

He has had long periods of frustrating work droughts, often winding up with consulting gigs instead of a 9-5, January-to-December, job.

Personally, I perfer working for myself. I have only fired myself once. Okay, twice, but the second one I hired myself right back. <G>


Dave

[chickenhead]

Dave,
Completely agree about the small business comments...I have worked for some large companies, but I only got that work as they acquired small companies that I worked for...

I would have a difficult time walking "cold" into a Cisco or Alcatel and getting a job that i felt was up to snuff...I could get a job, but probably not what I wanted right off the bat. I say "cold" because I have one caveat...I'm only 27 but have been working tech since I was 19....8 years is not long, but long enough that I have a lot of former comrades who are now working all over the place, it is much much easier for me to get a job at any place where i know someone, regardless of company size. Goes back to the old saying...

re your cousin, I can imagine aerospace would be tough...not a lot of mom and pop solid rocket booster companies....