There are a couple of members here that should not see this.

[ljb]

They like Bush think everything is hunky dorey in Iraq.
Cheney still thinks they have WMDs and are throwing flowers at the feet of U.S. Troops ;)
But any way this is a link to what some of the troops over there are doingl
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041016%2F1303052668.htm&sc=1107

[sq764]

And this is different from any other war...how?

[Tom]

Ljb has a habbit of focusing on the 2% and ignoring the 98%.
Like Abbu Grad...this is a side bar story. It will be investigated and live goes on.

[JustRalph]

they will lock them up. and they probably deserve it. The biggest problem they have with mounting a defense is, the others ran the mission with apparently no problem (that has been reported)

So, they used their own judgement and did not rely on their command structure to make the decision. The command structure was apparently right. This will be their downfall.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Congrats on your impartial post.

[PaceAdvantage]

Remember, folks like LJB and John Kerry will most likely NEVER support a war of any LENGTH. Sure, they'll support the short stuff like Afghanistan, but anything longer than a couple of months, and it doesn't get any support.

Just look to the first Gulf War, when we supposedly had a GRAND COALITION, which John Kerry has said is needed (GLOBAL TEST) in order to go to war. Lots of MAJOR countries were in our coalition back then.....

BUT.....

JOHN KERRY VOTED AGAINST THE FIRST GULF WAR.

Why hasn't the Bush campaign made more of an issue of this fact?

[Equineer]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Remember, folks like LJB and John Kerry will most likely NEVER support a war of any LENGTH. Sure, they'll support the short stuff like Afghanistan, but anything longer than a couple of months, and it doesn't get any support.

Just look to the first Gulf War, when we supposedly had a GRAND COALITION, which John Kerry has said is needed (GLOBAL TEST) in order to go to war. Lots of MAJOR countries were in our coalition back then.....

BUT.....

JOHN KERRY VOTED AGAINST THE FIRST GULF WAR.

Why hasn't the Bush campaign made more of an issue of this fact? History would suggest that you have things backwards.

Disdain was Kerry's motive for voting against the 1st Gulf War.

Democratic Presidents have taken us into the great "manly" wars like WW-II, Korea, and Vietnam. By comparison, Republican Presidents seem to prefer short "wussy" wars like Grenada, Panama, and Iraq (twice).

When Bush says he will never activate a draft, that is equivalent to promising he will not go to war with North Korea or Iran. In the aftermath of Vietnam, the Republican Party simply outsmarted the Democrats by embracing draft dodgers, just as they have embraced other single-issue factions.

History is a great teacher, so men of real courage will see beyond Republican smokescreens and mirrors, and they will vote solidly for Kerry. :D

[Buckeye]

Lincoln was a Republican.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by ljb
But any way this is a link to what some of the troops over there are doingl
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041016%2F1303052668.htm&sc=1107

There is an obligation one soldier has to another even if it means looking into the head of the lion.

Unfortunately, good men and women are sacrificing for a wrong headed president AND congress..

Joe M

[Tom]

WWII, Korea, Vietnam. Yup "manly" wars. For the records:

1. WWII - we won it, but it was JAPAN who entered us, not democrates.
2. Korea - Demos did and at best it was a tie, more like a loss-we could not win it so we quit fighting (was Kerry around back then, too?)
3. Vietnam - Dems again, and...oh, yeah we LOST that one. Remeber the helciopters taking everyone off the embassy roof while the Vietcong entered the city, remeber us pushing helicopters over the sides of carriers?

Yep, it don't get any "manlier" than that. So, if you wnat a "manly" war, where your win rate is 33% and you can count on losing at least 50,000 soldiers, then by all means, vote for Kerry.


Does this crap ever stop???????

[Suff]

They're putting Rank and File Soldiers in Prison for not standing up and saying that what was Going on at ABu Garhib was wrong. The case has been made that these Privates and low ranking soldiers should have taken a stand and said "This is wrong".

I agree the circumstances in this case are not comprable. But I still have to hear all the evidence before I indict the soldiers. Perhaps the situation was such that someone needed to stand up and say "This is wrong". I'll wait unti I get more information to make a Judgement.

[sq764]

No matter how many ways you twist, spin and cut it, it's insubordination!!! Period!!

You're there to do a job, to follow orders.. If you do not, there are consequences..

If you're at your job and your boss tells you something to do and you say 'it's wrong', chances are he's going to say "That's great, now go f-ing do it"

[Tom]

I don't think any soldier should have been punished for Abbu Grad. sucs to be a suspect in a war zone.
And, I agree, Suff-give them the benifit of the doubt. If what they say is true, then action needs to be taken against their superiors.
Using soliders in non-war activites is wrong. And no one can say we are doing all we can in Iraq.

[Equineer]

Originally posted by Buckeye
Lincoln was a Republican. True, I was only counting modern foreign wars. My point was that it is ironic for true warrior mentalities to be Republicans. We recently elected Republicans to get us out of Korea and Viet Nam, and to also end the military draft. I didn't consider needing a civil war to satisfy the most vocal modern hawks because they seem to resist military service. :)

[BetHorses!]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Just look to the first Gulf War, when we supposedly had a GRAND COALITION, which John Kerry has said is needed (GLOBAL TEST) in order to go to war. Lots of MAJOR countries were in our coalition back then.....

BUT.....

JOHN KERRY VOTED AGAINST THE FIRST GULF WAR.

Why hasn't the Bush campaign made more of an issue of this fact?

I think (hope) they will hit the airwaves big with this very soon. Its mind boggling the Bush campaign has not made more of this yet.

[Equineer]

BetHorses,

Kerry voted NO on Warner's Senate Bill S Joint Res 2 - Congress (1991-92), but this bill never passed Congress because it was never voted on by the House.

Here is a much more significant damnation of Kerry's opportunistic ambivalence towards the First Gulf War:
http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=1261
Poor Wallace Carter's head must have been spinning after receiving those two letters only nine days apart.

Finally, this article explains why Kerry and Bush were both wrong about the current invasion of Iraq:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20040818.html

Looking ahead to the next invasion, here is Colin Powell's condemnation of inequities in our Viet Nam military draft, from Powell's "My American Journey."

"I particularly condemn the way our political leaders supplied the manpower for that war," he wrote. "The policies -- determining who would be drafted and who would be deferred, who would serve and who would escape, who would die and who would live -- were an anti-democratic disgrace. I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed and so many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us) managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country."

Some but not all exclusions for the privileged minority have since been revised. Our draft regulations still need more work.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Equineer
History would suggest that you have things backwards.

Disdain was Kerry's motive for voting against the 1st Gulf War.

Democratic Presidents have taken us into the great "manly" wars like WW-II, Korea, and Vietnam. By comparison, Republican Presidents seem to prefer short "wussy" wars like Grenada, Panama, and Iraq (twice).

When Bush says he will never activate a draft, that is equivalent to promising he will not go to war with North Korea or Iran. In the aftermath of Vietnam, the Republican Party simply outsmarted the Democrats by embracing draft dodgers, just as they have embraced other single-issue factions.

History is a great teacher, so men of real courage will see beyond Republican smokescreens and mirrors, and they will vote solidly for Kerry. :D

I said nothing about HISTORY. I said KERRY. TODAY. NOT 60 YEARS AGO.

[Lefty]

eq, guess you've forgotten that Clinton was a draft dodger of the first order; didn't even go into the National Guard and protested Vietnam on foreign soil. You embrace guys like this and disavow a man whose first priority is to keep us safe.

lbj, with all these recent starter threads you seem as desperate as Kerry himself! Guess the Dem memo got to you ok...

[Tom]

Lefty, did you see the movie Every Which Way But Loose?
Theat motorcycle gang that Philo (Clint) beat up everytime thier paths crossed, sitting in thier house, all beat up, bandaged, whinning about what to do to stop Philo. That is the DNC. The leader of the gang, that is Ljb. :D

[DJofSD]

You guys remember the new economy, don't you?

Well, we're entering the new era of warfare. We need to have a Global Test for methods of war.

DJofSD

Right turn, clyde.