The troops are beggining to speak out

[ljb]

This snippet from the Washington Post.
For Marines, a Frustrating Fight
Some in Iraq Question How and Why War Is Being Waged

ISKANDARIYAH, Iraq -- Scrawled on the helmet of Lance Cpl. Carlos Perez are the letters FDNY. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York, the Pentagon and western Pennsylvania, Perez quit school, left his job as a firefighter in Long Island, N.Y., and joined the U.S. Marine Corps.

"To be honest, I just wanted to take revenge," said Perez, 20.

Now, two months into a seven-month combat tour in Iraq, Perez said he sees little connection between the events of Sept. 11 and the war he is fighting. Instead, he said, he is increasingly disillusioned by a conflict whose origins remain unclear and frustrated by the timidity of U.S. forces against a mostly faceless enemy.

"Sometimes I see no reason why we're here," Perez said. "First of all, you cannot engage as many times as we want to. Second of all, we're looking for an enemy that's not there. The only way to do it is go house to house until we get out of here."
There is more see link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20794-2004Oct9.html

[cj]

A 20 year old kid with no experience in life whatsover. He quit school and being a fireman in NY after 9-11? What was he, a 17yo high school student/firefighter?

Is this the best you can do? Even if the above seems a little fishy, what did this guy expect? To be chasing Usama through the streets of Baghdad with his M16? Please ljb, you can do better than this.

Most troops are happy to be doing the job they do, even in Iraq. I know them, I don't have to dig through the internet ti find little snippets from some 20yo who probably knows nothing about anything.

[ljb]

cj,
This is an article in the Washington Post. There are others with complaints. I give these troops credit for speaking out against a Wrong War at the Wrong time. They may suffer consequences but that is one of our basic rights in America. The right of free speech. At least it is so far, with the patriot act this right may be compromised.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Tom]

Wrong war at the wrong time......real good thing for the folks at home to be singing out.
Let me refresh your memory - the part is not programmed by the DNC - that the UN was in the same opinioin as Bush about hte dnger of Iraq . Reread this..especially paragraph about the WMD danger.




Text of UN Resolution 1441
Iraqi Disarmament - November 8, 2002, approved unanimously by the 15-member security council.
THE SECURITY COUNCIL,



RECALLING all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its president,




Buy the book The Threatening Storm: The Case For Invading Iraq by Kenneth Pollack

RECALLING also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

*******
RECOGNIZING the threat Iraq's noncompliance with council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
********


RECALLING that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized member states to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,


FURTHER RECALLING that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,



DEPLORING the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programs to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 km, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programs, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,



DEPLORING FURTHER that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,



DEPLORING the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,



DEPLORING ALSO that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,



RECALLING that in its resolution 687 (1991) the council declared that a cease-fire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,



DETERMINED to ensure full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions and recalling that the resolutions of the council constitute the governing standard of Iraqi compliance,

RECALLING that the effective operation of UNMOVIC, as the successor organization to the Special Commission, and the IAEA is essential for the implementation of resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions,



NOTING the letter dated 16 September 2002 from the minister for foreign affairs of Iraq addressed to the secretary-general is a necessary first step toward rectifying Iraq's continued failure to comply with relevant council resolutions,



NOTING further the letter dated 8 October 2002 from the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director-general of the IAEA to General (Amir) Al-Saadi of the government of Iraq laying out the practical arrangements, as a follow-up to their meeting in Vienna, that are prerequisites for the resumption of inspections in Iraq by UNMOVIC and the IAEA, and expressing the gravest concern at the continued failure by the government of Iraq to provide confirmation of the arrangements as laid out in that letter,

REAFFIRMING the commitment of all member states to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighboring states,



COMMENDING the secretary-general and members of the League of Arab States and its secretary-general for their efforts in this regard,



DETERMINED to secure full compliance with its decisions,



ACTING UNDER CHAPTER VII OF THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS,



1. DECIDES that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);



2. DECIDES, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the council;



3. DECIDES that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programs to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;



4. DECIDES that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the council for assessment in accordance with paragraph 11 AND 12 below;



5. DECIDES that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the council 60 days thereafter;

6. ENDORSES the 8 October 2002 letter from the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director-general of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;

7. DECIDES FURTHER that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq , to facilitate their work in Iraq:


-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;

-- All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to Presidential Sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998);

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq's chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programs and the associated research, development, and production facilities;

-- Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient U.N. security guards;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare, for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or
close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof;

and

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;



8. DECIDES FURTHER that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or of any member state taking action to uphold any council resolution;



9. REQUESTS the secretary-general immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;



10. REQUESTS all member states to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programs or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;



11. DIRECTS the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director-general of the IAEA to report immediately to the council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;



12. DECIDES to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;



13. RECALLS, in that context, that the council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;



14. DECIDES to remain seized of the matter.



Look over additional UN Security Council Resolutions



George Bush's January 2003 State of the Union Address



Timeline:Iraq | Gen. Tommy Franks and Operation Enduring Freedom


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Search Amazon.com for books on the United Nations.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This page was last updated 13 February, 2003 .




Dalebroux Home | Search | Links | Alice Bean Sprouts | Bigalk History | Contact Me | Guestbook

[boxcar]

You're missing the point, Tom! First, that last Unified Numbskulls resolution was just a mere formality. Forget about the part where it says Saddam will "suffer severe consequences" if he doesn't cooperate. That was just an idle threat that should not have been taken literally and most certainly not seriously. (Besides the Security Council was coerced and forced to vote unamiously on that resolution by that arm-twisting BushWhacker in Texas.) The real purpose behind 1441 was that it was meant to spearhead another decade of empty and meaningless resolutions. Haven't you figured out how the U.N. works yet -- that vaunted institution of unquestionably high moral integrity?

Boxcar

[Lefty]

lbj, Most of the troops are woth the Pres. Oliver North is over there with them constantly and puts them on TV. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 but whole groups of them. They blve this war needs to be done and that we will win. Brave guys and gals all!

[ljb]

Tom,
Could you parse that down to a page or two?
Cj,
More
"The reality right now is that the most dangerous opinion in the world is the opinion of a U.S. serviceman," said Lance Cpl. Devin Kelly, 20, of Fairbanks, Alaska.

Lance Cpl. Alexander Jones, 20, of Ball Ground, Ga., agreed: "We're basically proving out that the government is wrong," he said. "We're catching them in a lie."
Boxcar,
Your paranoi is affecting your thought patterns.
Lefty,
Ollie North, he is with faux isn't he?
Remember the graph Lefty, remember the graph.

[Tom]

So you cite some 20 year old as you definitive source?
Ljb, quit trying put words into our troops mouths.
lsbets tells a totally different stroy and he is there, and so we are hearing it from HIM, not filtered through quasi news agencies.

[sq764]

Guess this dude is part of the 44%..


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1168009/posts

"If the election were held tomorrow, those active-duty, reserve and veteran votes would go to Mr. Bush by a margin of 52 percent to 44 percent, according to the June 20 to 23 bipartisan Battleground Poll of likely voters that Ms. Lake conducted with Mr. Goea"

[lsbets]

If I were a writer with an agenda I could make an article read whatever way I wanted it to. I would never attempt to say that anything close to 100% of the soldiers think we should be here, but I think a large majority do. One of my best NCOs doesn't think that we should be here because he doesn't think the Iraqis will embrace democracy, but guess what? He doesn't voice that opinion to his troops (that would be piss poor leadership on his part), and he does nothing but soldier 24/7. He understands what it means to be a soldier and a leader. And guess what he says about the people back home who are using this war as a political tool against President Bush? He thinks they should shut the hell up because they are encouraging the people who are trying to kill us. And this is a man who is voting for Kerry. As Tom said, I base this on the fact that I am here and know what is said both publicly and in the tents. One thing that I do know for a fact, 11% of my soldiers have requested extension packets to stay here an extra six months. You don't see the Washington Post reporting that.

[kenwoodallpromos]

The guy sounds like Kerry in Nam. Soon he will get rice shot in his butt and chicken out. Not to worry.
The Post calls 1 asshole out for revenge "the marines". They are idiots and so is the marine.
Not even being close to being in the same league with Isbets and the Real soldiers there who do not have only personally defective motves.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
If I were a writer with an agenda I could make an article read whatever way I wanted it to. I would never attempt to say that anything close to 100% of the soldiers think we should be here, but I think a large majority do. One of my best NCOs doesn't think that we should be here because he doesn't think the Iraqis will embrace democracy, but guess what? He doesn't voice that opinion to his troops (that would be piss poor leadership on his part), and he does nothing but soldier 24/7. He understands what it means to be a soldier and a leader. And guess what he says about the people back home who are using this war as a political tool against President Bush? He thinks they should shut the hell up because they are encouraging the people who are trying to kill us. And this is a man who is voting for Kerry. As Tom said, I base this on the fact that I am here and know what is said both publicly and in the tents. One thing that I do know for a fact, 11% of my soldiers have requested extension packets to stay here an extra six months. You don't see the Washington Post reporting that.

Isbets,

Hope all is going well over there.

I disagree about something fundamental to this whole Iraqi search for WMD's which has now become the expansion of democracy to the midEast.

That idea is that "democracy" will stop the spread of terrorism, OR make Iraqi's happy. What makes people happy is security, and the ability to "pursue happiness" as Jefferson said and trust in their leaders and a constitutional system that gurantees certain freedoms..

A democracy allows people to choose a leader. It does not guarantee peace, and a government is only as good as its leaders. Right now this has become an experiment, not a certainty, and certainly the election of Allawai will do nothing to dissade Al Queda to give up in the war on terror. In fact will the Iraqi people embrace a person with former ties to the CIA of this country? And what if the leader of Iraq is someone like a Islamic Cleric ( I hear a lot about elections but have no idea who is even running over there or any kind of registration)? How will we deal with a demcoracy that chooses a leader we don't approve of, like Iran, pre-Shah in the 50's? We overthrew a democracy back then to appoint the Shah. We see this to an extent in Venezuela today.

We're off the mission here which is get those terrorists reponsible for 911, not nation build.

It is difficult position to dissent on policy and still provide complete support to soldiers. I want all the protection you guys can get over there. I want Iraqi's trained fully as quickly as possible. And I'd like to see you guys out of there within 4 years, not some of you devoting a decade to securing Iraq (btw.. Allawi said a decade -- not just me). Why do you think Bush never mentions that?

Al Queda is a bunch of extremists (who Hussein never really embraced)

I have to tell you "freedom of speech" and the right to speak up when you think we're going the wrong direction as a nation is what makes America great. It's one of those things you're doing over there to help Iraqi's to their freedoms. I'm not going to blindly keep my mouth shut while I watch a stuborn leader put young men's lives at risk needlessly.

[sq764]

Secretariat, when Kerry said (before the war or 9/11) that Sadam has aided and harbored terrorists, what did that mean to you (or imply)?

Seriously, I want to know how you understood that...

[Lefty]

lbj, i'd swear you were holding the Dem handbook in one hand while you type with the other. What network does North work for? IT DOESN'T MATTER! He's standing there, on camera, talking with real troops! What diff whose camera is pointed at them?
You Kool Aid drinkers just absolutely hate fair and balanced, don'tcha?

lsbets, stay safe.

[Equineer]

Recently, on a network-affiliated nightly news broadcast, the commanding officer of a medical evacuation unit spoke out against the war in Iraq when reporters covered a privately-sponsored goodbye ceremony as he and his unit shipped out to Iraq for their second tour. Also, it was not clear whether this officer realized that his remarks were being recorded.

This officer said he was a veteran of the original Gulf War against Iraq. His current criticism focused on lack of a credible "national threat" justification, failure to plan effectively for occupation and reconstruction, and setting unrealistic political objectives for this Islamic nation.

His views are probably understandable... while the world is given a macro view of what is wrong, the medical evacuation guys actually have to touch the thousands of dead and wounded.

The economic and human sacrifices are evident... the problem seems to be that we are not effectively pursuing realistic objectives that might compensate for the sacrifices.

[lsbets]

Sec,

All is going well here. The weather has cooled down to a nice 110 or so and fall has arrived. Can't wait for Ramadan to start. We've even started singing Ramadan carols:

On the first day of Ramadan, Haji gave to me, a V-B-I-E-D.
On the second day of Ramadan, haji gave to me - 2 RPGs and a V-B-I-E-D.
On the third day of Ramadan, Haji gave to me, 3 mortar rounds, 2 RPGs, and a V-B-I-E-D.

I realize that not everyone will appreciate the dark humor that troops develop.

I have no problem with well thought out dissent and do think that it is one of the things that makes our country great. I also don't think there should be any laws prohibiting the free speech of the sound byte politicos, but they need to realize that speech has consequences, and while a thoughtful dissent ( like the one in your post) adds value to our national debate, commercialized sound bytes do encourage our enemies. No one is telling you to keep your mouth shut, but there are others who I would say that to (there is no law stopping them) and I and many others like myself blame them for many of the attacks against our troops. They have blood on their hands whether they realize it or not.

In terms of the commander of the medevac unit - he is not a leader. If he made those comments in front of his troops, he should be relieved of his command immediatly, not because he does not have the right to free speech, but because he does not understand leadership. I don't agree with everything my superiors do, but bitching goes one way in the military - up. You never, ever bitch down. Thats the way it is, and a commander who does it not fit for command.

[Equineer]

Originally posted by lsbets
In terms of the commander of the medevac unit - he is not a leader. If he made those comments in front of his troops, he should be relieved of his command immediatly, not because he does not have the right to free speech, but because he does not understand leadership. I don't agree with everything my superiors do, but bitching goes one way in the military - up. You never, ever bitch down. Thats the way it is, and a commander who does it not fit for command. As I said, it was not clear if he knew he was on the record speaking in a cluster of folks that included a reporter.

He was in civies, the "goodbye" event was at a church, and he is a respected physician when he is not a senior medical officer. He did make it clear that his entire unit would go without hesitation just as we would expect any medical unit to respond when there is human suffering.