Illinois Casino bill......tracks get slots

[JustRalph]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/233995/illinois-close-to-approving-casinos-for-racetracks

This should be interesting

[wisconsin]

Arlington is a great location and there is lots of money around that area.

The fact that there is a rail stop there makes it the perfect set-up. It will be a huge success and is a beautiful plant.

[horses4courses]

Arlington is a great location and there is lots of money around that area.

The fact that there is a rail stop there makes it the perfect set-up. It will be a huge success and is a beautiful plant.

Having lived there in the past, I know this is true. :ThmbUp:
Hopefully, it will be a shot in the arm for racing purses.

[cj]

Having lived there in the past, I know this is true. :ThmbUp:
Hopefully, it will be a shot in the arm for racing purses.

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Rivers Casinos (about 13 or 14 miles away) generates over $400 mm/yr in revenue. Given the just-passed bill also allows for a casino in downtown Chicago and additional slots expansion in other areas of the state (in an already saturated market), I doubt AP would approach anything like that number. But even if AP gaming revenue is only $100 mm/yr, it would boost purses by over $10 mm/year, which would be a huge increase.

[castaway01]

I imagine it will help keep the tracks in business, but not sure where the horses will come from to improve the quality of the fields much.

[horses4courses]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

I agree with you if it gets funneled to state bred races.
Arlington Park should be able to attract shippers like Keeneland and CD.
Right now, they can't.

[Saratoga_Mike]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

History is on your side, but AP is one of the nicest tracks in the country. I think they'll attract new owners/trainers with higher purses. Time will tell.

[JeremyJet]

Racing has been on life support for a long long time around here. Let's hope Arlington, Hawthorne and Fairmount can get together and formulate a plan going forward that will strengthen the thoroughbred product in the state.

I'm a thoroughbred guy, but I hope this is good for the harness side as well. They should rebuild Sportsman's Park. 🤔

[The_Turf_Monster]

Iirc last time this came up, AP believed it'd have a top 5 purse structure in the country. A lot of things have changed and many towns around Chicago now have slot machines in bars

[JustRalph]

Sports betting bill coming up next

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sports betting bill coming up next

??? It's part of SB690.

[thaskalos]

With Illinois' financial wows...could legalized online poker be far behind? :ThmbUp:

[BIG49010]

The state has serious problems, I am sure they will collect the money, the big question is will racing get any of it. Churchill will increase their stock price, the Carey's will avoid bankruptcy, and the State will steal as much as possible and purses will increase to levels of 20 years ago! They have been going around in circles with the recapture for years, but the horseman never see any of it. I agree with many this is too little, too late to save racing!

[The_Turf_Monster]

The state has serious problems, I am sure they will collect the money, the big question is will racing get any of it. Churchill will increase their stock price, the Carey's will avoid bankruptcy, and the State will steal as much as possible and purses will increase to levels of 20 years ago! They have been going around in circles with the recapture for years, but the horseman never see any of it. I agree with many this is too little, too late to save racing!

Hawthorne and AP are both in great locations for casinos. Let's say HAW can get its maiden purses up near $40k, and you have a pretty good product in the fall and spring. AP is already running MSW over $30k and always has competitive turf racing. This might be the catalyst to get rid of the polytrack that is years beyond its intended life. At that point, it can rebuild what used to be a good stakes schedule. Imo you will see a product better than Marylands

[Tom]

AP with dirt would be a blessing!
Used to be a great track to play, until they let the dirt track go.

Switching to Poly made them PID Central.

[BCOURTNEY]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

Great so they will lower takeout and use the increased handle to boost purse and put in the long term fix right?

[jocko699]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Flashbackdiner]

No matter what the horses will always be secondary to whatever casino projects are in the making. Within several years they will entertain getting a decoupling bill passed because horse racing will become non profitable....of course all by design.

[Afleet]

hoping for the best but illinois is basically bankrupt and extremely corrupt. Believe they are adding all kinds of new taxes on gasoline, cigarettes and probably everything else. They are losing population. If I lived there I would leave

[Saratoga_Mike]

AP with dirt would be a blessing!
Used to be a great track to play, until they let the dirt track go.

Switching to Poly made them PID Central.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you should give it another shot. There just aren't a lot of crazy outcomes on the AP poly. The field sizes are what make the betting unattractive, imo. Hopefully that will change with bigger purses...big hopefully.

[JustRalph]

hoping for the best but illinois is basically bankrupt and extremely corrupt. Believe they are adding all kinds of new taxes on gasoline, cigarettes and probably everything else. They are losing population. If I lived there I would leave

Met with my new payroll rep this last week. He moved from Chicago 2 yrs ago. He said he regrets he didn't do it 20 yrs ago

[Tom]

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you should give it another shot. There just aren't a lot of crazy outcomes on the AP poly. The field sizes are what make the betting unattractive, imo. Hopefully that will change with bigger purses...big hopefully.

I haved 0 interest in playing any non-dirt tracks.

[LemonSoupKid]

AP with dirt would be a blessing!
Used to be a great track to play, until they let the dirt track go.

Switching to Poly made them PID Central.

Yes, many factors are involved, but it is curious that ever since they switched to poly, it went even further down the tubes. They didn't even get the writing on the wall when everyone else (Keeneland, cushion track at SA and del mar) went back ...

D. Wayne said it first, wanna destroy racing/betting?, "Put in AWS"

[Redboard]

A couple rambling thoughts. Good to hear that the state is finally doing the right thing. Because Arlington runs in the summer and in competition with SPA & Del Mar, it’s going to be tough for them to put together a decent card that would get my attention. The only way I see it happening is, if they somehow could specialize in turf races. They’re not going to beat those two tracks dirt races. At least when Arlington has to take a race off the turf , it moves to flubber which isn’t as much a difference. Maybe the Arlington million will get a purse boast now. It’s been the same for almost 40 years. According to inflation, should be $2.8 million. If they just go the statebred route then the whole thing is garbage. Welfare for the local horsemen.

[thaskalos]

Yes, many factors are involved, but it is curious that ever since they switched to poly, it went even further down the tubes. They didn't even get the writing on the wall when everyone else (Keeneland, cushion track at SA and del mar) went back ...

D. Wayne said it first, wanna destroy racing/betting?, "Put in AWS"

Arlington's problems have nothing to do with the poly...business there really tanked because of the racino-type purses being offered by the surrounding states...while Arlington's "unassisted" purses have remained puny by comparison.

With its purse problem fixed, I believe Arlington can do very well as the country's only polytrack with an accompanying turf course. There seems to be a certain similarity between poly and turf, performance-wise...and Arlington might eventually become the country's turf-racing capital. Horsemen can take their turf horses to Arlington...and keep them racing on two surfaces without ever subjecting them to dirt.

[Delta Cone]

...and Arlington might eventually become the country's turf-racing capital. Horsemen can take their turf horses to Arlington...and keep them racing on two surfaces without ever subjecting them to dirt.

Good idea if the weather cooperates. I don't think Arlington has run a single turf race this year.

Of course, May 2019 was the wettest May on record, beating the 2018 mark. Lets hope this isn't the new normal.

[wisconsin]

If they just go the statebred route then the whole thing is garbage.



Well, I thought I read somewhere there were only about 100 foals this year in Illinois.

The Illinois bred races are also now open to LA and ARK breds :faint:

[Afleet]

Well, I thought I read somewhere there were only about 100 foals this year in Illinois.

The Illinois bred races are also now open to LA and ARK breds :faint:

Illinois foals
2017: 178 foals
2016: 221 foals

this is a big problem

[Tom]

this is a big problem

Yeah, no "foalin'"! :lol:

Seriously, they can handle two days of racing a year with that!
Looks like AWS is not bringing them out of the wood work.

[zico20]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.

Not when you are talking about Fairmount Park. The quality of racing can't get any lower right now. They run two days a week, seven races with field sizes averaging six horses. Fairmount was as good as gone if they didn't get slots and sports betting. The quality will greatly improve next year. Thank God, I still like to go to the track on occasion and watch live racing.

[exactatom]

The quality of racing at Fairmount Park has to do with the management. They do ZERO to make a horseplayer want to return there. I have asked the following questions over the years to management/employees there?

1. Why do they charge betters to come bet the simulcast? I further stated that I lived in Lexington and could go to Keeneland and bet simulcast free of charge and they want to charge you $2 to get in the door. Why is that?

2. Why don't you make an effort to upkeep the facility? I went as far as to tell them that if you buy the paint, I would volunteer to paint the toteboard. It looks like it has not been touched in 20 years. For years a fixture was a man selling candy bars on a table in the men's room.

3. Why is the emphasis on selling cheap beer instead of drawing people to watch the racing? Miller Lite Beach Bikini party instead of focusing on actually having 8 horses in a field.

4. Why with a facility at the intersection of interstates do you do more to promote and make the facility a place people would actually want to visit?

5. Why is your GM a former harness guy who only got the job as his employment was a requirement to have the harness license surrendered so thoroughbred racing could expand dates?

6. Why do you not have any kind of rewards club for betters? Nothing like the few free meals you give away being to people who wager on their phones instead of through the windows.

7. When you had a local attorney spend his own money to put up the pursed that attracted a horse that ran in the Kentucky Derby, you never continued this for more than one year, why?

These guys have not cared about the product for years. They kept the place on life support waiting for the time they got gambling so they could divert the additional funds from the horsemen.

If you want to improve the quality of racing, then it starts at the top. The owner ran Ralston Purina and surely he knows how to run a company well.

My two cents from a guy who has went there for the last 35 years.

[cj]

Not when you are talking about Fairmount Park. The quality of racing can't get any lower right now. They run two days a week, seven races with field sizes averaging six horses. Fairmount was as good as gone if they didn't get slots and sports betting. The quality will greatly improve next year. Thank God, I still like to go to the track on occasion and watch live racing.

I hope for your sake you are right. All I can say is we'll see.

[mostpost]

Racing has been on life support for a long long time around here. Let's hope Arlington, Hawthorne and Fairmount can get together and formulate a plan going forward that will strengthen the thoroughbred product in the state.

I'm a thoroughbred guy, but I hope this is good for the harness side as well. They should rebuild Sportsman's Park. 🤔
Sportsman's Park will not be rebuilt. That land is now occupied by a beverage distribution company (Alcoholic) However, there is a section in the bill authorizing a new harness track in the south suburbs of Cook County; most likely near Tinley Park.

[mostpost]

At this point I think it is pretty clear better purses don't help the product. It is very possible they have the opposite effect.
Has someone hacked your account? You don't make dumb statements. Belmont and Saratoga in New York; Churchill Downs in Kentucky; Santa Anita and Del Mar in California. Those tracks have the highest purses and those tracks have the best racing. The best barns with the best horses come to where they can make the most money.

[cj]

Has someone hacked your account? You don't make dumb statements. Belmont and Saratoga in New York; Churchill Downs in Kentucky; Santa Anita and Del Mar in California. Those tracks have the highest purses and those tracks have the best racing. The best barns with the best horses come to where they can make the most money.


Sure, the big purses help the local horsemen, but they don't really help the product for gamblers. That is what I was talking about. I should have been more clear. Horses race less when the purses are big, fields shrink, etc.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Has someone hacked your account? You don't make dumb statements. Belmont and Saratoga in New York; Churchill Downs in Kentucky; Santa Anita and Del Mar in California. Those tracks have the highest purses and those tracks have the best racing. The best barns with the best horses come to where they can make the most money.

You're right CJ does not make dumb statements. The advent of slots subsidizing purses was in the mid 1990s (I believe Delaware Park was one of the first). According to the Jockeys Club, US t'bred handle was $11.3 billion in 2018, DOWN from $11.6 billion in 1996. Did all that slots money fuel handle?

On a micro level, please examine the handle-to-purse ratios of tracks with slots (PRX is a good place to start). Trace that ratio over time. What's the trend? Which tracks have the lowest ratios?

I'm not even sure why you listed those tracks? They were all built over time on the backs of horse bettors, not slots subsidies. I think AP could potentially prosper from higher purses, but second and third-tier tracks? Not likely, imo.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Sure, the big purses help the local horsemen, but they don't really help the product for gamblers. That is what I was talking about. I should have been more clear. Horses race less when the purses are big, fields shrink, etc.

Eh the impact on Maryland racing begs to differ. Slots purses coupled with strong incentives to breed and race in state will increase field size. That bonus for MD-breds for winning keeps horses in state and brings the MD-breds back to Maryland at the highest and lowest levels. Intelligent carding of races will fix any detriment that slots could impact

[cj]

Eh the impact on Maryland racing begs to differ. Slots purses coupled with strong incentives to breed and race in state will increase field size. That bonus for MD-breds for winning keeps horses in state and brings the MD-breds back to Maryland at the highest and lowest levels. Intelligent carding of races will fix any detriment that slots could impact

Sure, but how did Maryland get in the spot it was in to begin with? Slots at DEL and CT which cannibalized Maryland racing.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Sure, but how did Maryland get in the spot it was in to begin with? Slots at DEL and CT which cannibalized Maryland racing.

Totally agree, but MD is doing more to overcome it that any other state. Illinois got itself in the position where it was losing racing and casino dollars to its neighboring states

[JustRalph]

A short distance from my business is a Casino bus station. Never saw one before. It holds about 20 buses (I’m told) and every morning you show up and pay a fare to ride to one of 12 Casino locations in Louisiana and Oklahoma. None in Texas. I always thought it was a regular bus station.

Sam Houston Race park is 20 minutes away from this place. Yet.....nah baby nah!

[cj]

A short distance from my business is a Casino bus station. Never saw one before. It holds about 20 buses (I’m told) and every morning you show up and pay a fare to ride to one of 12 Casino locations in Louisiana and Oklahoma. None in Texas. I always thought it was a regular bus station.

Sam Houston Race park is 20 minutes away from this place. Yet.....nah baby nah!

If Texas ever legalizes gambling WinStar will shut down within months. The parking lot is nothing but Texas license plates. The place is gigantic.

https://www.winstar.com/

[Afleet]

Not when you are talking about Fairmount Park. The quality of racing can't get any lower right now. They run two days a week, seven races with field sizes averaging six horses. Fairmount was as good as gone if they didn't get slots and sports betting. The quality will greatly improve next year. Thank God, I still like to go to the track on occasion and watch live racing.

Hope things improve there-been a few times-I like those old beat up tracks. Felt insulted when they would take money from your winning tickets even though overall I was losing. Vowed never to go back and haven't.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sure, but how did Maryland get in the spot it was in to begin with? Slots at DEL and CT which cannibalized Maryland racing.

Now that MD and PA have slots, how is Delaware Park doing? How many times will they cancel this year due to a lack of horses? When you subsidize something, you get more supply than the market demands. Mid-Atlantic racing is Econ 101. Wait until Colonial opens (very attractive purses vs. the past).

Not sure how anyone can argue with you on this point, except on the margin. I do think a strong product (e.g., Saratoga) can benefit from a purse subsidy. And I suspect AP could turn into a Midwest center for high quality racing, but at the cost of second-tier tracks.