Horse racing overseas

[thaskalos]

I am starting this thread out of genuine curiosity about the level of popularity that overseas racing has been able to attain within our country. In thread after thread here, the assertion is usualy made by someone that horse racing in other countries is more financially attractive than our domestic product is...and yet the past performances that I've been able to find for the racing overseas are woefully inadequate when compared to what we have available for our races here.

Please understand that I am in no way disparaging the overseas game...nor am I pursuing an argument with those here who have embraced the foreign version of this game. I am genuinely wondering how serious money can be wagered on a racing product that offers such limited handicapping information to the bettor. Yes...I know that the Hong Kong betting pools are huge...but I attribute this to the citizens there having gotten used to their version of the game over time. How does an American handicapper, who has gotten used to the detailed past performances that we have here, make the transition to betting serious money while using the sketchy PPs that are available abroad?

Are there detailed foreign PPs containing fractional times and speed/pace figures...which are available to the betting public at a higher price?

[Robert Fischer]

The readily available foreign pps are inadequate.

A member, shared with me, the 'DRF' pps, for the Dubai World Cup card.

Significant difference from the foreign pps.

I would also like to see Brisnet supporting Stallions and Training Operations abroad, with free Brisnet Ultimate past performances with the 'complete' information included.

I would not be surprised to find more adequate available information for foreign pps, and am hopeful that a member will clue us in.

[Jeff P]

Several years ago (I think it was a few days after Christmas 2012) another horseplayer who I consider a friend came to me with an interesting proposal.

He was very much interested in betting the races at Sha Tin and Happy Valley in Hong Kong.

Even though the Hong Kong Jockey Club website makes a myriad of free data available to everybody (just like Thaskalos has posted in this thread) he was left wanting by certain data points that were missing (such as fractional times, pace figs, and speed figs, etc.)

After searching for a bit, my friend had found a player in Australia who had been compiling basic chart data for Hong Kong. The data was sitting in sql tables, and the player was willing to sell a season's worth of it (if I recall correctly) for about $2k (US.)

My friend had already found four players who were willing to split the cost of the data and was asking if I was interested in becoming the fifth.

He explained that we would be buying raw data "as is." After that we were on our own.

He further explained that "some" programming would be needed to retrieve the data from the sql tables - and that the player we would be buying the data from had said the column names in the tables should be "self explanatory."

He then went on to explain the different things each member could bring to the group:

His strength, he explained, was ticket structure. One player was pretty good at making speed and pace figs. Another was pretty good at trip notes. Another was pretty good with Access and Excel and would be compiling race day reports. My name had come up because they needed a programmer who could not only retrieve the data from the sql tables but who could create some useful ratings from it.

It sounded like an interesting project (we would be forming a team to play Hong Kong.) My share was only a few hundred dollars.

I told him "Count me in."

A few weeks later I began picking apart the sql database. It was slow going. The column names were not as self explanatory as I had been lead to believe.

Deciphering the data was often a case of reading the value for something in the record of a given horse from from a sql table -- and from there going to the Hong Kong Jockey Club website, and scanning the visible data of that same horse while looking for an exact match.

To make a long story short, we didn't get very far. In the end, each of us decided (amicably) not to invest in a second season of data and to go our separate ways.

Imo, a project of this type is certainly doable. But it involves a TON of work. It also requires a serious time commitment from the multiple parties involved.



-jp

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[thaskalos]

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

[classhandicapper]

I think there's an opportunity for better information, but it may not be for speed and pace figures. I think Andy Beyer has written about several aborted attempts to make speed figures overseas. It's turf racing. The times are often not indicative of the quality of the horses.

For me to get involved I'd need more organized replays, a better understanding of the class structure, and better running line and chart data. I want to know where horses were at various points of call, what the flow of the race looked like, and how the track was playing that day. But even that would be useless I understood the quality of the races better.

[zerosky]

In the UK as elsewhere horse racing has been seen to be in 'Terminal decline' for the last 60 years. Yet on it goes, the pic below shows on-course attendance for the past twenty years. The link shews a Government sponsored report into the economic importance of the industry to the UK as a whole.

Speaking personally I think the Industry is in 'fair' health

http://tinyurl.com/y4uo5tkp

[trytrytry]

Epsom Derby one of the most important races in horse racing history for obvious reasons is June 1st. lots of good podcasts, preview shows, the experts there really know heir horses, trips, trainers and course feel. the info is there its just different to get. and only so many hours in the day.

[Tom]

Personally, I have no interest in any overseas racing, other than to watch an occasional big race, or special horse perform. I get no thrill from watching a bunch of people standing up in the stirrups, going slow around the park for 3-4 minutes, then whipping and drive for 30-45 seconds. I also have no interest in most American turf racing for the same reason.

Maybe, if they gave you something to work with, like fractional times so we could at least judge come home efforts, I might play some shorter races, but the amount of information available in a useable utility is not good.

But Thask, TimeForm has the only PPs I have ever seen that are even adequate. The figures are good, the the comments informative.

[highnote]

If you are a serious bettor of foreign races you are glad there is not good information available. It is a huge edge to be able to compile your own data.

In HK the data is available for free, but you need to know programming in order to scrape it from their website.

And even if you can scrape it and compile your own data, the market is mature and highly competitive.

On the other hand, it's like any market -- in order to win regularly you have to become an expert. Novices will get eaten alive -- just like in the U.S.

My first year of betting thoroughbreds I actually won on the NYRA circuit. I was too green to know how to lose. I used the Dr Z place/show system. Then learned Dick Mitchell's system. Then I used the Sartin Methodology's TPR ratings. Then I graduated to using Brohammer. I rarely deviated from any of those systems. I won because I had nothing to "unlearn".

I didn't start to lose until I decided I could do better by building my own "winning" system. LOL

[Maximillion]

If you are a serious bettor of foreign races you are glad there is not good information available. It is a huge edge to be able to compile your own data.

In HK the data is available for free, but you need to know programming in order to scrape it from their website.

And even if you can scrape it and compile your own data, the market is mature and highly competitive.

On the other hand, it's like any market -- in order to win regularly you have to become an expert. Novices will get eaten alive -- just like in the U.S.

My first year of betting thoroughbreds I actually won on the NYRA circuit. I was too green to know how to lose. I used the Dr Z place/show system. Then learned Dick Mitchell's system. Then I used the Sartin Methodology's TPR ratings. Then I graduated to using Brohammer. I rarely deviated from any of those systems. I won because I had nothing to "unlearn".

I didn't start to lose until I decided I could do better by building my own "winning" system. LOL

Its like the saying says.....a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[highnote]

Its like the saying says.....a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

:ThmbUp:

[JustRalph]

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

Sam Houston was doing this a few years back. decent crowd late at night playing Japan, I asked the simulcast director where to get pp's....... " not sure"

[woodbinepmi]

Sam Houston was doing this a few years back. decent crowd late at night playing Japan, I asked the simulcast director where to get pp's....... " not sure"

A year after we opened at Sam Houston they started showing Hong Kong in the middle of the night, you couldn't find a seat in the pavilion it was so full.

[iamt]

https://www.scmp.com/sport/racing/article/3012457/jockey-club-makes-desperate-money-grab-turnover-plummets

[Tom]

It's a shock to me that our local ADW outfits are actually trying to market overseas racing to us without even thinking of offering us some detailed past performances for us to use.

Shut up and bet.

[Nitro]

I am starting this thread out of genuine curiosity about the level of popularity that overseas racing has been able to attain within our country. In thread after thread here, the assertion is usualy made by someone that horse racing in other countries is more financially attractive than our domestic product is...and yet the past performances that I've been able to find for the racing overseas are woefully inadequate when compared to what we have available for our races here.

Please understand that I am in no way disparaging the overseas game...nor am I pursuing an argument with those here who have embraced the foreign version of this game. I am genuinely wondering how serious money can be wagered on a racing product that offers such limited handicapping information to the bettor. Yes...I know that the Hong Kong betting pools are huge...but I attribute this to the citizens there having gotten used to their version of the game over time. How does an American handicapper, who has gotten used to the detailed past performances that we have here, make the transition to betting serious money while using the sketchy PPs that are available abroad?

Are there detailed foreign PPs containing fractional times and speed/pace figures...which are available to the betting public at a higher price?
I found this little gem of a post and I couldn’t believe my eyes. Now don’t get me wrong! If this post was written by a “newbie” to the game it would be understandable on many levels. But for a long time seasoned player to make these sort of complaints is inexplicable!

I’m assuming of course that that the statement of “
In thread after thread here, the assertion is usually made by someone horse racing in other countries is more financially attractive than our domestic product” is referring primarily to the many discussions about racing in Hong Kong in which I've often participated.

It’s the next comment that underscores the unwarranted and distressing nature of this entire post: “and yet the past performances that I've been able to find for the racing overseas are woefully inadequate when compared to what we have available for our races here.”
In reality, this entire comment is 180 degrees off of what is actually available through the HK Jockey Club Web site, and what’s even worse is that it makes that information appear to be substandard from the perspective of a player who’s obviously stuck with mediocrity and indoctrination with the local PPs. In fact, the HK racing information is way ahead when it comes to providing ALL aspects of their racing game, the horses, and those involved.

“How does an American handicapper, who has gotten used to the detailed past performances that we have here, make the transition to betting serious money while using the sketchy PPs that are available abroad? Are there detailed foreign PPs containing fractional times and speed/pace figures...which are available to the betting public at a higher price?”
These concluding comments also clearly demonstrate a lack of the basic exposure to what’s actually available through the HK Web site. I realize that some might wonder how much they would have to pay for all this information. Well, here’s another reason why the HK racing product is so well received: ALL this information is FREE! Anyone who views and can grasp the enormous handle of HK racing, and yet can’t comprehend why it’s available at no charge, doesn’t understand top shelf business marketing practices when dealing with the general public.

Simple solution: Visit the HK Jockey Club Web site and judge my comments for yourself.
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[clicknow]

the HK racing information is way ahead when it comes to providing ALL aspects of their racing game, the horses, and those involved.

I remember my first exposure to HK racing and was amazed at all the information available........and realized how "lacking" the PPs I was used to dealing with were. I can get so much more information on a horse, their veterinary records, their weight (not just carried weight but actual body weight) for each race they have run,

and next to each race, right there, handy is completely video of every race the horse has run. Not just one, but multi angle view as well as the aerial video next to it! And every piece of equipment whether it be a shadow roll or ear plugs is noted. Sectional times, the "going" of the track, and "energy required" in the chart compared to the Speed Pro Energy, ------ they even have fitness ratings! and what the odds were for every race they were in, what paths they raced in during their races.........really, it's astonishing. A database miracle.

Then the speed map (likely positions after settling) sort of like TFUS pace pictures.

Dealing with U.S. PPs, I feel like I'm betting "blind" in comparison to the information I am able to get in HK about a horse.

It takes me a lot longer to cap a race because of all the information available, it's just a lot of information.

I'm somewhat convinced that people can't cap horses w/out Bris speed or BSF figures. Because otherwise, everything and anything you would want to know about a horse's entire past, as well as their present, is available.......and all for free.

(I esp. like the workout records, where "swimming" is always part of the workout, since all the horses swim in the pool for fitness). YOu would never see that here. LOL) I would love to visit their track and backside, etc.

I also like watching it. It's not like a quick post parade where you barely get to see the horses......you get to sit and look at them carefullly and closely, each one, for quite a long time, while the analyst remarks about them. Each horse is "showcased" so individually.

And finally, the video. Top notch. I can see the hairs on the horses from my LAPTOP!

[Nitro]

I remember my first exposure to HK racing and was amazed at all the information available........and realized how "lacking" the PPs I was used to dealing with were. I can get so much more information on a horse,
Well, I think your fine description might have covered just about all the highlights of the information that the HK Jockey Club provides. There are a few more items both static and dynamic that I find especially useful.

Its good to see that others might also appreciate what’s being offered in HK. (Did I mention that its ALL for FREE?)
GL
Nick

[chiguy]

I really do love the television product that is put out with each race in HK. The analysts give out 15-20-30 to one shots every race in their top 4. It is a closed group of horses so the analysts know this horses very very well. It is a dream to handicap and bet these races.

[Nitro]

I really do love the television product that is put out with each race in HK. The analysts give out 15-20-30 to one shots every race in their top 4. It is a closed group of horses so the analysts know this horses very very well. It is a dream to handicap and bet these races.
I agree 100% and if you’re interested in a horse’s physicality the analysts (particularly Jenny) offer a very thorough examination of each horse. When you’re half way around the world betting on these horses there’s nothing like getting that type of pre-race information.

[castaway01]

I found this little gem of a post and I couldn’t believe my eyes. Now don’t get me wrong! If this post was written by a “newbie” to the game it would be understandable on many levels. But for a long time seasoned player to make these sort of complaints is inexplicable!

I’m assuming of course that that the statement of “
In thread after thread here, the assertion is usually made by someone horse racing in other countries is more financially attractive than our domestic product” is referring primarily to the many discussions about racing in Hong Kong in which I've often participated.

It’s the next comment that underscores the unwarranted and distressing nature of this entire post: “and yet the past performances that I've been able to find for the racing overseas are woefully inadequate when compared to what we have available for our races here.”
In reality, this entire comment is 180 degrees off of what is actually available through the HK Jockey Club Web site, and what’s even worse is that it makes that information appear to be substandard from the perspective of a player who’s obviously stuck with mediocrity and indoctrination with the local PPs. In fact, the HK racing information is way ahead when it comes to providing ALL aspects of their racing game, the horses, and those involved.

“How does an American handicapper, who has gotten used to the detailed past performances that we have here, make the transition to betting serious money while using the sketchy PPs that are available abroad? Are there detailed foreign PPs containing fractional times and speed/pace figures...which are available to the betting public at a higher price?”
These concluding comments also clearly demonstrate a lack of the basic exposure to what’s actually available through the HK Web site. I realize that some might wonder how much they would have to pay for all this information. Well, here’s another reason why the HK racing product is so well received: ALL this information is FREE! Anyone who views and can grasp the enormous handle of HK racing, and yet can’t comprehend why it’s available at no charge, doesn’t understand top shelf business marketing practices when dealing with the general public.

Simple solution: Visit the HK Jockey Club Web site and judge my comments for yourself.
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It's hilarious how you rant at Thaskalos for paragraph after paragraph about how great Hong Kong past performances are, yet you only handicap using the toteboard…makes sense. :bang:

[Nitro]

It's hilarious how you rant at Thaskalos for paragraph after paragraph about how great Hong Kong past performances are, yet you only handicap using the toteboard…makes sense. :bang:
“Hilarious” I doubt it! I think your rebuttal is actually pretty Sad.

Do you have the ability to comprehend the written word? Apparently you totally missed the fact that this ENTIRE thread is related to the quality of information that may be found that’s related to horse racing overseas (particularly HK). It is totally unrelated to ANY methodology that someone might be using to attack the game.

Get it?!
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[clicknow]

I think your rebuttal is actually pretty Sad.

I guess I don't get the whole point of any rebuttals even being necessary. Hong Kong is generally recognized as the most honest well regulated racing jurisdiction in the world, and the data available to it's customers for free is without compare.

No, we can't have the exact same thing because our situation is different in many ways here. But there are many aspects of their model we can adopt. Many.

But....we don't.

All this stuff is brought up, year after year after year. The excuses I've heard now for 20+ years will just continue until we have a centralized governing body for the industry.

In life when their is *intent*, things happen. The only thing I can think at this point is that there isn't, (and never has been), any real intent to fix U.S. racing other then when forced to do so by public pressure. Then they pretend to care about something other than profits.

In the meantime, I will watch and wager hong kong and other jurisdictions. I won't have to watch carnage like an assistant starter beating a horse mulitiple times in the head; I won't have to read stories about a horse with a broken leg with no veterinary attention at dumps like PNGI, etc. This is supposed to be a civilized nation.

[AndyC]

I guess I don't get the whole point of any rebuttals even being necessary. Hong Kong is generally recognized as the most honest well regulated racing jurisdiction in the world, and the data available to it's customers for free is without compare.

No, we can't have the exact same thing because our situation is different in many ways here. But there are many aspects of their model we can adopt. Many.

But....we don't.

All this stuff is brought up, year after year after year. The excuses I've heard now for 20+ years will just continue until we have a centralized governing body for the industry.

In life when their is *intent*, things happen. The only thing I can think at this point is that there isn't, (and never has been), any real intent to fix U.S. racing other then when forced to do so by public pressure. Then they pretend to care about something other than profits.

In the meantime, I will watch and wager hong kong and other jurisdictions. I won't have to watch carnage like an assistant starter beating a horse mulitiple times in the head; I won't have to read stories about a horse with a broken leg with no veterinary attention at dumps like PNGI, etc. This is supposed to be a civilized nation.

With all the wonderful things being done in Hong Kong for your benefit can we assume that you are making a comfortable 6 figure income from your bets there?

[clicknow]

With all the wonderful things being done in Hong Kong for your benefit can we assume that you are making a comfortable 6 figure income from your bets there?


I am making wagers that I'm *ethically comfortable* with, and on horses that I feel are part of a racing product that has integrity. To me, that's a good investment of my hard earned money.

How about you? Are you making a comfortable 6 figure income?

I'm strictly a recreational player, not a professional gambler.

It really seems to bother you that U.S. horseplayers are playing other jurisdictions. Horse racing is international now. This isn't the 1950s anymore....

[AndyC]

I am making wagers that I'm *ethically comfortable* with, and on horses that I feel are part of a racing product that has integrity. To me, that's a good investment of my hard earned money.

How about you? Are you making a comfortable 6 figure income?

I'm strictly a recreational player, not a professional gambler.

It really seems to bother you that U.S. horseplayers are playing other jurisdictions. Horse racing is international now. This isn't the 1950s anymore....

I couldn't care less where you play. I love foreign racing because it is primarily turf racing.

A good investment of my hard earned money is where I can win. All of the wonderful things provided by HK do not make it easier to win. Transparency is a good thing for the sport in general but can be a bad thing for a bettor. Case in point, back in the 70s the DRF did not publish the splits in the PPS of the west coast form. Pace handicapping was a gold mine for players who made the effort to obtain the info from the charts. It was a sad day for me when the west coast form starting providing all of the splits for every horse.