Mountaineer is unplayable

[judehaz]

I know I'm probably late to the game here; should have realized it a long time ago. Where to start? How about tonight (5/15): the obvious foul in the second race that kept up a 44-1 shot even after it severely impeded the horse that finished third (pushing the horse out on two different occasions in the stretch). And there wasn't even an inquiry; it took an objection from the jock for the stewards to even look at it. Mountaineer goes official faster than any track of any breed I have ever seen. Take a look at the head on; Maximum Security did less!

Then, in a mile race in the fourth, the favorite takes an easy galloping (if you can call it that) lead to the quarter in 26 seconds and a half mile in 51 and change to inexplicably and completely fade out of the money down the stretch.

Sorry for the ranting - it's just a track geographically near to me that I had enjoyed visiting in the past, before 1) tainted drinking water on the grandstand side was found to have legionella, causing the track to cancel for a few weeks and 2) the track announcer blocking me from twitter after a polite comment disagreeing with his opinion on a harness horse. I know Mark is on this forum and there are still some good horsemen and women at the track, so no offense to anyone personally involved in the racing there is intended.

Racing at Mountaineer in 2019 just seems so far removed from my understanding of legitimate horse racing that it shouldn't be taking place anymore. And I do follow low-tier tracks also close to Pittsburgh like Presque Isle, Thistledown, Charles Town and Mahoning Valley. The racing at these tracks kind of makes sense and resembles the NYRA, Kentucky and California circuit racing we are all used to. At Mountaineer you might as well be playing roulette or "virtual racing" or hoping the fix is in on your picks. It's more and more like dog racing every day.

[lamboguy]

basically speaking, both this foul and MAXIMUM SECURITY were quite similar. i agree that MAX did less, but because of the domino effect, it looked pretty flagrant. the stewards in Kentucky thought the foul caused another horse not to run higher placed. tonight the stewards believed that the horse fouled would not have won.

it all comes down to human opinion. the stewards have theirs, and we have ours.

as far as giving up the mountain, it is the only track i am playing these days because its at night and i don't bet that much money on it because the pools there can only handle so much.

[Tom]

Better add 15 more days to Saez!

[thaskalos]

I too bet Mountaineer...but I confess to having an ulterior motive. In case I am ever caught committing a serious crime...I intend to present my Mountaineer betting records at my trial...in the hope that this will bolster my insanity defense.

[iamt]

I know I'm probably late to the game here; should have realized it a long time ago. Where to start? How about tonight (5/15): the obvious foul in the second race that kept up a 44-1 shot even after it severely impeded the horse that finished third (pushing the horse out on two different occasions in the stretch). And there wasn't even an inquiry; it took an objection from the jock for the stewards to even look at it. Mountaineer goes official faster than any track of any breed I have ever seen. Take a look at the head on; Maximum Security did less!

Then, in a mile race in the fourth, the favorite takes an easy galloping (if you can call it that) lead to the quarter in 26 seconds and a half mile in 51 and change to inexplicably and completely fade out of the money down the stretch.

Sorry for the ranting - it's just a track geographically near to me that I had enjoyed visiting in the past, before 1) tainted drinking water on the grandstand side was found to have legionella, causing the track to cancel for a few weeks and 2) the track announcer blocking me from twitter after a polite comment disagreeing with his opinion on a harness horse. I know Mark is on this forum and there are still some good horsemen and women at the track, so no offense to anyone personally involved in the racing there is intended.

Racing at Mountaineer in 2019 just seems so far removed from my understanding of legitimate horse racing that it shouldn't be taking place anymore. And I do follow low-tier tracks also close to Pittsburgh like Presque Isle, Thistledown, Charles Town and Mahoning Valley. The racing at these tracks kind of makes sense and resembles the NYRA, Kentucky and California circuit racing we are all used to. At Mountaineer you might as well be playing roulette or "virtual racing" or hoping the fix is in on your picks. It's more and more like dog racing every day.


I can only recommend that you revisit what your understanding of racing is. For anyone to compare the minor brushing between two horses each drifting in the stretch to what happened in the Derby is laughable. The jockey on the third horse should be fined for making an objection and wasting everyone's time.

[judehaz]

I can only recommend that you revisit what your understanding of racing is. For anyone to compare the minor brushing between two horses each drifting in the stretch to what happened in the Derby is laughable. The jockey on the third horse should be fined for making an objection and wasting everyone's time.

We all have our opinions, and I appreciate yours. I saw it as more than "minor brushing" and closer to impeding the path (twice), but thank you for offering another viewpoint.

[woodbinepmi]

I too bet Mountaineer...but I confess to having an ulterior motive. In case I am ever caught committing a serious crime...I intend to present my Mountaineer betting records at my trial...in the hope that this will bolster my insanity defense.

Now that's funny!

[jay68802]

Should brush up on your ability to spot bias in the track. More than one night in the last couple of weeks you could play running styles only and could have done well.

[thaskalos]

Should brush up on your ability to spot bias in the track. More than one night in the last couple of weeks you could play running styles only and could have done well.

One night in a couple of weeks? What if we decide to take that night off?

[jay68802]

One night in a couple of weeks? What if we decide to take that night off?

Another way to bolster your defense. Good luck at trial.

[jay68802]

and why not?

Race #8:


:4:

:6:

Hopefully this is how you take advantage of a bias.

Late pick 3 pays $244.80

TY Frost King.

Just running styles here.

[davew]

One night in a couple of weeks? What if we decide to take that night off?

You can never take a night off. You never know when the bridgejumper has put $10K+ to show on the 4th most likely horse.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I know I'm probably late to the game here; should have realized it a long time ago. Where to start? How about tonight (5/15): the obvious foul in the second race that kept up a 44-1 shot even after it severely impeded the horse that finished third (pushing the horse out on two different occasions in the stretch). And there wasn't even an inquiry; it took an objection from the jock for the stewards to even look at it. Mountaineer goes official faster than any track of any breed I have ever seen. Take a look at the head on; Maximum Security did less!

Then, in a mile race in the fourth, the favorite takes an easy galloping (if you can call it that) lead to the quarter in 26 seconds and a half mile in 51 and change to inexplicably and completely fade out of the money down the stretch.

Sorry for the ranting - it's just a track geographically near to me that I had enjoyed visiting in the past, before 1) tainted drinking water on the grandstand side was found to have legionella, causing the track to cancel for a few weeks and 2) the track announcer blocking me from twitter after a polite comment disagreeing with his opinion on a harness horse. I know Mark is on this forum and there are still some good horsemen and women at the track, so no offense to anyone personally involved in the racing there is intended.

Racing at Mountaineer in 2019 just seems so far removed from my understanding of legitimate horse racing that it shouldn't be taking place anymore. And I do follow low-tier tracks also close to Pittsburgh like Presque Isle, Thistledown, Charles Town and Mahoning Valley. The racing at these tracks kind of makes sense and resembles the NYRA, Kentucky and California circuit racing we are all used to. At Mountaineer you might as well be playing roulette or "virtual racing" or hoping the fix is in on your picks. It's more and more like dog racing every day.
I think I might have mentioned this before. There was one night and MTR that you could have bet every horse in every race to win, every exacta, tri and super combo in all the races and you still would have won $15,000. Tracks like Mountaineer have nights when it is short prices and nights when the favorites find a way to lose. It's a pretty good puzzle to solve.

[Dave Schwartz]

I think I might have mentioned this before. There was one night and MTR that you could have bet every horse in every race to win, every exacta, tri and super combo in all the races and you still would have won $15,000. Tracks like Mountaineer have nights when it is short prices and nights when the favorites find a way to lose. It's a pretty good puzzle to solve.

A couple of decades back, there was a fall HOL meet when you could have bet every horse in every race and been flat bet profitable.

[metro]

I know I'm probably late to the game here; should have realized it a long time ago. Where to start? How about tonight (5/15): the obvious foul in the second race that kept up a 44-1 shot even after it severely impeded the horse that finished third (pushing the horse out on two different occasions in the stretch). And there wasn't even an inquiry; it took an objection from the jock for the stewards to even look at it. Mountaineer goes official faster than any track of any breed I have ever seen. Take a look at the head on; Maximum Security did less!

Then, in a mile race in the fourth, the favorite takes an easy galloping (if you can call it that) lead to the quarter in 26 seconds and a half mile in 51 and change to inexplicably and completely fade out of the money down the stretch.

Sorry for the ranting - it's just a track geographically near to me that I had enjoyed visiting in the past, before 1) tainted drinking water on the grandstand side was found to have legionella, causing the track to cancel for a few weeks and 2) the track announcer blocking me from twitter after a polite comment disagreeing with his opinion on a harness horse. I know Mark is on this forum and there are still some good horsemen and women at the track, so no offense to anyone personally involved in the racing there is intended.

Racing at Mountaineer in 2019 just seems so far removed from my understanding of legitimate horse racing that it shouldn't be taking place anymore. And I do follow low-tier tracks also close to Pittsburgh like Presque Isle, Thistledown, Charles Town and Mahoning Valley. The racing at these tracks kind of makes sense and resembles the NYRA, Kentucky and California circuit racing we are all used to. At Mountaineer you might as well be playing roulette or "virtual racing" or hoping the fix is in on your picks. It's more and more like dog racing every day.

The winner of the 2nd race didn't come out until right at the wire. It really didn't effect the outcome, feel like that's why they left it up. Didn't see any serious bumping from the top of the lane until the slight drift/bump at the wire.

Like others have said this incident is not in the same ballpark as what Saez and Maximum Security were responsible for in the Derby.

[46zilzal]

Known this for many a year...It is, sorry to say, ONE step before the knacker yard and, unfortunatly, they run like it

[Tom]

One night in a couple of weeks? What if we decide to take that night off?

One more line item for your defense! :headbanger:

[cutchemist42]

Hate how Mountaineer doesnt provide their feed online anymore. Stopped playing it years ago. Dont meet the 3 day betting threshold to get free video and replays through HPI.

Still the place where I had my biggest win choice at 70/1.

[Tom]

If they had live video ON THEIR SITE I would play it.

Guys, make your product available easily. Duh.

[thaskalos]

...but it is a job she seems to really need.

Gee...you make needing a job sound so "needy"...you must be showing up at your own job as a "hobby".

[wickednorth]

I won't get into the stuff about Mark and Nancy (though it's pretty low class), but you know this isn't a restaurant chain where you close locations, right?
i'm not so sure the owners of that casino would be all that upset if they somehow got out of the racing business. must be some kind of contract situation that keeps it going.

[Teentrifecta]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Mark & Nancy are the ONLY simulcast feed I don't mute playing online and yeah they joke around and keep things light which keeps the players tuning in. if you misinterpret that as something twisted, I suggest you layoff the Dr. Phil reruns.

I hope you realize Mark posts on this forum and if you took the time to do 30 seconds of posting research before torching someones reputation you would find that above being sharp as a tack when it comes to this game, the guy goes above and beyond the call of duty to answer questions and share insight with others because he's just that type of guy.

There's nothing I love more then a good troll (EMD4ME my all time fav) but c'mon man, taking shots at Mark? Get real.

[PaceAdvantage]

Posts deleted, user banned

[Tom]

:ThmbUp:

[judehaz]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Mark & Nancy are the ONLY simulcast feed I don't mute playing online and yeah they joke around and keep things light which keeps the players tuning in. if you misinterpret that as something twisted, I suggest you layoff the Dr. Phil reruns.

I hope you realize Mark posts on this forum and if you took the time to do 30 seconds of posting research before torching someones reputation you would find that above being sharp as a tack when it comes to this game, the guy goes above and beyond the call of duty to answer questions and share insight with others because he's just that type of guy.

There's nothing I love more then a good troll (EMD4ME my all time fav) but c'mon man, taking shots at Mark? Get real.

I didn't see the user or the posts that were banned but I am glad to see Mark and Nancy fans - some of the most fun commentary out there. I, too, love their friendly banter and ability to "keep it real." And their picks are definitely above average!

[mountainman]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Mark & Nancy are the ONLY simulcast feed I don't mute playing online and yeah they joke around and keep things light which keeps the players tuning in. if you misinterpret that as something twisted, I suggest you layoff the Dr. Phil reruns.

I hope you realize Mark posts on this forum and if you took the time to do 30 seconds of posting research before torching someones reputation you would find that above being sharp as a tack when it comes to this game, the guy goes above and beyond the call of duty to answer questions and share insight with others because he's just that type of guy.

There's nothing I love more then a good troll (EMD4ME my all time fav) but c'mon man, taking shots at Mark? Get real.

Tx, sir.

[mountainman]

I didn't see the user or the posts that were banned but I am glad to see Mark and Nancy fans - some of the most fun commentary out there. I, too, love their friendly banter and ability to "keep it real." And their picks are definitely above average!

Tx, sir. I am simply incapable of sing-song cookie-cutter type commentary. I have just two modes: very intense, or completely irreverent. I am subversive by nature, and my sin is the sin of ego. I never get tired of telling people how much I think I know.

But the job has become more fun, and I've probably become a better analyst since I became aware of, and acknowledged, my shortcomings.

And yes. I do NEED the job. LOL.....

[mountainman]

Posts deleted, user banned

Many thanks and much respect, good sir.

[Flashbackdiner]

I miss Mountaineer when they had a lot of 10 horse fields. There was one year where post #10 had a higher win percentage then post #1. I won a lot of money that year. Mark and Nance bring a lot of insight to the races. Unfortunately I chose a selection Mark made last night in a 3 horse field who ran dead last. S*it happens. Lol

[mountainman]

If they had live video ON THEIR SITE I would play it.

Guys, make your product available easily. Duh.

Spoke last night about this with Jim Colvin, our director of racing. And as best I could understand, contractual entanglements and contractual disputes that preceded his taking over make easier access to our signal an uphill battle. Jim is VERY aware of the pressing need to accomplish this and IS working hard on it. My impression was it WILL get done-but not real soon.

On an unrelated note, how do the people that script and unleash mindless internet attack dogs sleep at night?? Or actually think they are anonymous? Don't misunderstand me. It's an honor to work both my jobs, and I've received enough praise for 10 analysts, but personal attacks are always unsettling. Even the ones I never see, such as on this thread.

[Tom]

The internet gives opportunity for evil, little people who would never say anything to your face speak out. Best to ignore them.

[cutchemist42]

Spoke last night about this with Jim Colvin, our director of racing. And as best I could understand, contractual entanglements and contractual disputes that preceded his taking over make easier access to our signal an uphill battle. Jim is VERY aware of the pressing need to accomplish this and IS working hard on it. My impression was it WILL get done-but not real soon.

On an unrelated note, how do the people that script and unleash mindless internet attack dogs sleep at night?? Or actually think they are anonymous? Don't misunderstand me. It's an honor to work both my jobs, and I've received enough praise for 10 analysts, but personal attacks are always unsettling. Even the ones I never see, such as on this thread.

Glad to hear they are aware. I used to live in another province that had horse racing on TV so it didnt matter that I couldn't get the feed on my adw.

I still have issue though with the limits need to get video with HPI. My betting style means I will never qualify for their video service.What limits are needed for free video in the USA ADWs?

[arw629]

Appealing Yankee taking down the Kevin Patterson sprinter in the 2 fur sprint last night cost me a $10 pick 4. I was so pleased with my ticket too after the $41.00 horse won leg 2....5 with all with Kevin Patterson with 1,4,5,7....I hit the early double in the card for four bucks and I was thinking I had the card nailed. Such a buzz kill...that being said I love betting Mountaineer. Track biases appear from time to time and like earlier stated a lot of the time just bet the horses with the appropriate running style for how the track is playing....Mark and Nancy do a tremendous job but Mark if you’re reading this can you tell Nancy that Belterra is pronounced bel-tare-uh and not bel-tar-uh lol....Peter berry is one of the best. I guess I just love mountaineer bc it’s an old school race track in the middle of nowhere with interesting people everywhere you look

[lamboguy]

the first race had almost $250,000 bet on it with no minus pools or jumpers in it. then the action slowed right down. that money could have been the CAW. when one guy comes in the others try to take down the other sharks money sometimes.

it happens to me every time i make a $40 win bet at Bangor Harness. i come in early and the CAW comes in to fight over my $40. when i stick my $40 is the only time you see the win pool break $1000. i get horses that should be under 2-1 in my mind that pay $10 or more often times.

the CAW must be using some sort of artificial intelligence. if you realize that you are going up against the CAW you can make some money at this game.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Both MNR and CT are great if all you look at is class and track condition. Once you get beyond that, it's borderline pointless. Unlike most tracks, their class structure makes sense and they're not putting that dreaded 'or' in the race condition to combine two classes of horse

[mountainman]

.Mark and Nancy do a tremendous job but Mark if you’re reading this can you tell Nancy that Belterra is pronounced bel-tare-uh and not bel-tar-uh lol....Peter berry is one of the best. I guess I just love mountaineer bc it’s an old school race track in the middle of nowhere with interesting people everywhere you look

Tx so much for the kind words, sir. I, too, love mountaineer, and no matter what hat I have on, the place's best interests are ALWAYS foremost in my mind. In fact, I have in past instances offended upper brass by bluntly stating that I don't serve companies or persons: I serve Mountaineer.And that's a much higher calling. The sharpest of those authority figures well understood what an asset that mindset makes an employee.


I sometimes think that if Mnr were the Overlook, I would be Jack Torrance. Just as edgy; just as devoted; just as individualistic; And every bit as crazy, self-righteous, and rooted to the place. One of my blogs, The Tickets , somewhat explored the origins of this personal connection, while another, Muskets and Movies , entails a quirky history of Mnr and its surrounding area that you might find interesting.

As to pronouncing that Ohio track, I'll reveal something about the code we live by at the studio desk. And it's one reason Nancy and I have managed to work together for so long without MAULING each other..LOL. We are very close confidants about personal matters. In fact, we know things about each other that probably no one else in the WORLD knows. But we never, EVER, and I mean NEVER, coach each other on how to perform on the air. And that would include something as innocuous as pronouncing the name of a racetrack.


I realize how odd that must seem, but BELIEVE me, given our sharply contrasting styles and willful personalities, it IS for the best. LOL.

[arw629]

Tx so much for the kind words, sir. I, too, love mountaineer, and no matter what hat I have on, the place's best interests are ALWAYS foremost in my mind. In fact, I have in past instances offended upper brass by bluntly stating that I don't serve companies or persons: I serve Mountaineer.And that's a much higher calling. The sharpest of those authority figures well understood what an asset that mindset makes an employee.


I sometimes think that if Mnr were the Overlook, I would be Jack Torrance. Just as edgy; just as devoted; just as individualistic; And every bit as crazy, self-righteous, and rooted to the place. One of my blogs, The Tickets , somewhat explored the origins of this personal connection, while another, Muskets and Movies , entails a quirky history of Mnr and its surrounding area that you might find interesting.

As to pronouncing that Ohio track, I'll reveal something about the code we live by at the studio desk. And it's one reason Nancy and I have managed to work together for so long without MAULING each other..LOL. We are very close confidants about personal matters. In fact, we know things about each other that probably no one else in the WORLD knows. But we never, EVER, and I mean NEVER, coach each other on how to perform on the air. And that would include something as innocuous as pronouncing the name of a racetrack.


I realize how odd that must seem, but BELIEVE me, given our sharply contrasting styles and willful personalities, it IS for the best. LOL.

I totally understand and respect your position on that “Ohio” track but I had to bring it up just to see what your response would be. The thing is I already knew what you were going to reply with. Keep up the good work and I’m thankful for your time and dedication.

[Peter Berry]

Sorry for the ranting - it's just a track geographically near to me that I had enjoyed visiting in the past, before 1) tainted drinking water on the grandstand side was found to have legionella, causing the track to cancel for a few weeks and 2) the track announcer blocking me from twitter after a polite comment disagreeing with his opinion on a harness horse.
I blocked you for an accumulation of negativity toward Mountaineer. I don't remember any harness horse comment but I highly doubt it was "polite." More likely, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If you don't like Mountaineer, don't play it.

[mountainman]

I blocked you for an accumulation of negativity toward Mountaineer. I don't remember any harness horse comment but I highly doubt it was "polite." More likely, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If you don't like Mountaineer, don't play it.

You always serve mnr as best and completely as you can. Living proof that I'm hardly unique in that regard.

[judehaz]

I blocked you for an accumulation of negativity toward Mountaineer. I don't remember any harness horse comment but I highly doubt it was "polite." More likely, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If you don't like Mountaineer, don't play it.

For the record, this is the first and only thing I’ve posted “negatively” (really just a gambler’s rant) about Mountaineer. And it obviously generated some interesting conversation here.

Also, aside from questions or generally supportive comments on Twitter, the only thing one could construe as negative that I ever posted about the track were some PMs to you being upset about a string of breakdowns a few years ago, which at the time you were very gracious and understanding about, making the blocking actually hurtful to me. When you went through your health scare I was one of your biggest fans and you were thankful.

I remember exactly what I said that was the “straw” for you. You were defending Lazarus N and I said the horse would be a “flash in the pan” here.

Anyway, I am a fan of your race calling. Let’s just leave it at that.

[lamboguy]

Both MNR and CT are great if all you look at is class and track condition. Once you get beyond that, it's borderline pointless. Unlike most tracks, their class structure makes sense and they're not putting that dreaded 'or' in the race condition to combine two classes of horse
i like the easy conditions as well. the part that i find difficult there is they write 5 1/2 and 3/4 distances where horses can either thrive or look like bums if they are in the right or wrong distance.

i find the bias is very easy to pick up on the very first race without having to see 2 or 3 races. the other problem can be that up to the first 4 races can be on turf, then they run dirt and the dirt bias may only last 2 races, if there is one, and then the track changes because of the proximity to the river. why this happens i don't know. now you are up to the 7th race and have to be right on your assessment of the track to try to catch something on the 8th and 9th. it was better when they had 10 races.

[Peter Berry]

For the record, this is the first and only thing I’ve posted “negatively” (really just a gambler’s rant) about Mountaineer. And it obviously generated some interesting conversation here.

Also, aside from questions or generally supportive comments on Twitter, the only thing one could construe as negative that I ever posted about the track were some PMs to you being upset about a string of breakdowns a few years ago, which at the time you were very gracious and understanding about, making the blocking actually hurtful to me. When you went through your health scare I was one of your biggest fans and you were thankful.

I remember exactly what I said that was the “straw” for you. You were defending Lazarus N and I said the horse would be a “flash in the pan” here.

Anyway, I am a fan of your race calling. Let’s just leave it at that.
Clearly, then, whatever the reason I blocked you was uncalled for and I do humbly apologize. It would not be the first time I overreacted.

And, for the record, your comment on Lazarus proved spot-on.

[judehaz]

Clearly, then, whatever the reason I blocked you was uncalled for and I do humbly apologize. It would not be the first time I overreacted.

And, for the record, your comment on Lazarus proved spot-on.

Very kind of you to say. And my "unplayable" title was... a bit over the top to say the least! I actually got some great handicapping advice RE: track bias from this thread so I'm ultimately glad I posted it!

[mountainman]

Threw on tie this evening for first time in months. Half on whim, half as prep for derby day chafing. Top picks go 8 for 9 on air. As EXTREMELY superstitious dude, am now condemned to wear one for awhile. Ouch.

[mountainman]

You need thick skin to you do my job correctly. And most whining is simply a sign that you're doing it right. But sometimes your only recourse is to laugh and shake your head.

Evidently somebody in the Ricardo Barios camp wants pistols at 10-paces after my characterization of the then 3 for 63 rider's breakout night (Tuesday) as the product not only of hard, aggressive sending, but also the good fortune of having the turf events belatedly switched to dirt.

And they considered it EXTREMELY unfair for me to describe him as a very hard tryer who gives clients their money's worth every time-but will never be mistaken for stylish on a thoroughbred horse.

So ya wana be an analyst on tv??? Welcome to my world. It looks ohhhhhhh so easy until you step into the crucible and realize the cost not only of candor, but of simply doing the job.

I'm paid for objective analysis. Not to issue platitudes or cultivate friends. And I'm a big boy who made my peace with that long ago.

[Tom]

The cure for not being criticized for being a lousy rider is not to ride lousy.:lol:

Derby -day, always a good day for me at the Mountain.
Looking forward.

[mountainman]

*trier

[mountainman]

The cure for not being criticized for being a lousy rider is not to ride lousy.:lol:

Derby -day, always a good day for me at the Mountain.
Looking forward.

TX, Tom. Do me a favor, watch the guy on a horse and tell me if my characterization was accurate.

[mountainman]

The cure for not being criticized for being a lousy rider is not to ride lousy.:lol:

Derby -day, always a good day for me at the Mountain.
Looking forward.

I turned most of this year's recruiting over to my brother, Gary. He's an ex-trainer and jock's agent new to the office, but as sharp as they come. Gary is making tons of phone calls and busting his hump on the derby.

I just wish there was an intimidating horse to scare Haskell prospects our way.

[Jeff P]

Imo, the stats often have a way of speaking for themselves.


This is what I have for MNR rider standings 2019 ytd:
************************************************** **************************************
MNR 2019 BY RIDER sorted by wins Run Date: 6/14/2019 10:18:05 AM
************************************************** **************************************
WIN WIN WIN PLACE PLACE
NAME MOUNTS WINS PCT IMPACT ROI PLACES PCT ROI
************************************************** **************************************
BARBARAN ERIK 134 37 0.2761 1.8021 0.9134 56 0.4179 0.7127
QUINONES LUIS M 131 34 0.2595 1.6937 0.9282 58 0.4427 0.8412
OLIVEROS CHARLE 119 26 0.2185 1.4261 0.7782 48 0.4034 0.858
GONZALEZ ALEX 117 19 0.1624 1.06 0.7385 34 0.2906 0.7744
HERNANDEZ LUCIANO 132 18 0.1364 0.8903 0.7242 34 0.2576 0.572
ORTIZ WILKIN 107 16 0.1495 0.9758 1.0757 33 0.3084 0.7785
YARANGA YURI 106 14 0.1321 0.8622 0.7575 26 0.2453 0.9189
WILLIAMS AJHARI 102 13 0.1275 0.8322 0.4706 27 0.2647 0.5971
SERRANO KEIVAN 95 13 0.1368 0.8929 0.9042 26 0.2737 0.8337
RAMGEET ANDREW R 68 10 0.1471 0.9601 0.4191 24 0.3529 0.7809
BATISTA LUIS A 46 9 0.1957 1.2773 0.8826 19 0.413 0.7848
RIVERA LUIS RAUL 34 8 0.2353 1.5358 0.4529 16 0.4706 0.9706
GONZALEZ KEVIN 90 6 0.0667 0.4353 0.7144 13 0.1444 0.6922
BARRIOS RICARDO 78 6 0.0769 0.5019 0.4449 18 0.2308 0.7564
PAUCAR EDGAR 32 5 0.1563 1.0202 1.9156 13 0.4063 1.5531
HOUGHTON T D 19 4 0.2105 1.3739 2.2211 6 0.3158 1.1316
JURADO EDDIE 58 3 0.0517 0.3374 0.2293 10 0.1724 0.6121
CCAMAQUE MARCO A 28 3 0.1071 0.699 0.2714 7 0.25 0.5321
HOLBROOK LOGAN 50 2 0.04 0.2611 0.244 4 0.08 0.234
DAVILA JOSE M 30 2 0.0667 0.4353 0.6233 5 0.1667 0.6233
BOCACHICA ARNALDO 3 2 0.6667 4.3515 1.1 3 1 1.2333
STANLEY ANGEL ORTEG 7 1 0.1429 0.9327 0.3571 3 0.4286 2.1714
VIGIL NOEL 4 1 0.25 1.6317 1.625 2 0.5 2.2
ALMODOVAR GERALD 4 1 0.25 1.6317 0.3 3 0.75 1.125
PELTROCHE FREDY 3 1 0.3333 2.1754 0.5 2 0.6667 0.8667
HO WESLEY 3 1 0.3333 2.1754 1.3 1 0.3333 0.7667
ROSARIO JR HECTOR L 3 1 0.3333 2.1754 1.6 1 0.3333 0.7
BEATO INOEL 2 1 0.5 3.2635 0.9 1 0.5 0.65
VELEZ JUAN J L 2 1 0.5 3.2635 0.8 0 0 0
GARCIA GEOVANY 1 1 1 6.5269 2.9 1 1 1.9
WHITACRE GRANT 1 1 1 6.5269 1.7 1 1 1.4
SANTIAGO GILBERTO 27 0 0 0 0 2 0.0741 0.1963
SANTIAGO VICTOR 13 0 0 0 0 1 0.0769 0.1231
SANTOS OSMAN 7 0 0 0 0 1 0.1429 0.5714
HYNES TARA 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
SIMPSON JASON 5 0 0 0 0 3 0.6 1.5
DIAZ RENZO 4 0 0 0 0 2 0.5 1.45
MORALES KELVIN 4 0 0 0 0 2 0.5 1.025
RIVERA JAVIER 4 0 0 0 0 1 0.25 0.375
ROCHA WLADIMIR 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
THORPE DARIUS 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
LARROSA GUSTAVO 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
FIGUEROA SERGIO 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
MAYHEW GLENMORE W 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
LAGUNES GABRIEL 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 3.15
SPIETH SCOTT 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
BERRIOS HECTOR 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOLEDO JOAM S 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
SALAZAR BECERRA FERN1 0 0 0 0 1 1 3
************************************************** **************************************
49 Riders from file: StarterHistory Table
************************************************** **************************************


This is what I have in the DB if one were unfortunate enough to have bet $2.00 to WIN on every Ricardo Barrios mount:
query start: 6/14/2019 10:31:19 AM
query end: 6/14/2019 10:31:20 AM
elapsed time: 1 seconds

Data Window Settings:
Connected to: C:\JCapper\exe\JCapper2.mdb
999 Divisor Odds Cap: None
SQL UDM Plays Report: Hide

SQL: SELECT * FROM STARTERHISTORY
WHERE TRACK='MNR'
AND RIDER='BARRIOS RICARDO'
AND [DATE] >= #01-01-2019#
AND [DATE] <= #06-13-2019#
ORDER BY [DATE], TRACK, RACE


Data Summary Win Place Show
-----------------------------------------------------
Mutuel Totals 69.40 118.00 65.20
Bet -156.00 -156.00 -156.00
-----------------------------------------------------
P/L -86.60 -38.00 -90.80

Wins 6 18 16
Plays 78 78 78
PCT .0769 .2308 .2051

ROI 0.4449 0.7564 0.4179
Avg Mut 11.57 6.56 4.07

Fyi, the stats in the show column are a bit off because of small field sizes (the algorithm that generates the stats incorrectly assumes that show wagering was offered on every race.)


It might be easy to look at the above table - and decide the next time you look at MNR pps you're going to draw a big X through every one of the horses he's on because he's a 7% rider...

And who's to say you'd be wrong?

But if I look at his trend line in the DB I see this:
By: Calendar Timeline Analysis (Each Row 7 Days)

>=Min < Max P/L Bet Roi Wins Mounts Pct Impact
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.0000 7.0000 3.80 30.00 1.1267 3 15 .2000 2.6000
7.0000 14.0000 -1.20 26.00 0.9538 2 13 .1538 2.0000
14.0000 21.0000 -22.00 22.00 0.0000 0 11 .0000 0.0000
21.0000 28.0000 -16.00 16.00 0.0000 0 8 .0000 0.0000
28.0000 35.0000 -9.20 20.00 0.5400 1 10 .1000 1.3000
35.0000 42.0000 -28.00 28.00 0.0000 0 14 .0000 0.0000
42.0000 49.0000 -14.00 14.00 0.0000 0 7 .0000 0.0000
49.0000 56.0000 0.00 0.00 0.0000 0 0 .0000 0.0000
56.0000 63.0000 0.00 0.00 0.0000 0 0 .0000 0.0000

5 for 28 or 0.1786 over the past 2 weeks.

More often than not stats like that are telling you that a rider (or a trainer) has been on a hot streak but will (shortly) regress to his own mean.

But every once in a while it turns out stats like that really are telling you that a rider (or a trainer) is undergoing a break out.

Imo, stuff like that is a part of why we play this game.

In any event (because I looked at the trend line) the guy will be on my watch list for the next several MNR cards.



-jp

.

[mountainman]

Imo, the stats often have a way of speaking for themselves.





In any event (because I looked at the trend line) the guy will be on my watch list for the next several MNR cards.



-jp

.

Tx for the info, sir. But I did not opine on air about the guy's proficiency. I merely stated that his seat and motion on a horse are not stylish. And this only AFTER praising him as an aggressive jock who rides hard the entire trip, does not spare the whip, and gives his clients an all-out effort every time.

And if that's not more platitudes than Ricardo Barios has EVER received from ANY talking head, I will donate this year's entire salary to PETA. In truth, he should plant a wet one on me.

Sadly, though, lots of race-trackers with a dog in the fight watch televised commentary with an attitude best described by that classic line from Simon and Garfunkel's The Boxer : "All lies and jests until a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

And while many WANT to hear edgy and truthful commentary, they also want it BOTH ways by killing the messenger.

As far as Barios embarking on a hot streak, I would proceed with caution, Jeff. Two of his three wins that night were for a somewhat obscure trainer of decent skills, but limited resources. And with most of Mountaineer's live barns faithfully committed to deeply entrenched agents and riders, a breakout card for a far-from-connected jock like Barios almost NEVER opens up new business of note. In fact, the system is more likely to close ranks against him.

Barios' agent, Lori Dinoto, a steward at Mahoning from Oct thru Apr, is a friend of mine and has several times lamented to me just how impossible it is to pry live mounts away from the established hustlers. Don't get me wrong, I trained Lori as an official and am extremely proud of her fast ascension in Ohio, but she is hardly equipped in her first foray as an agent to compete with the likes of Billy Johnson, John Costanzo, and Jeff Perrin.

[thaskalos]

You need thick skin to you do my job correctly. And most whining is simply a sign that you're doing it right. But sometimes your only recourse is to laugh and shake your head.

Evidently somebody in the Ricardo Barios camp wants pistols at 10-paces after my characterization of the then 3 for 63 rider's breakout night (Tuesday) as the product not only of hard, aggressive sending, but also the good fortune of having the turf events belatedly switched to dirt.

And they considered it EXTREMELY unfair for me to describe him as a very hard tryer who gives clients their money's worth every time-but will never be mistaken for stylish on a thoroughbred horse.

So ya wana be an analyst on tv??? Welcome to my world. It looks ohhhhhhh so easy until you step into the crucible and realize the cost not only of candor, but of simply doing the job.

I'm paid for objective analysis. Not to issue platitudes or cultivate friends. And I'm a big boy who made my peace with that long ago.

Without putting yourself out on a limb, Mark...could you imagine a circumstance under which the track handicapper might be "coerced" by the higher-ups to tone down the "objective analysis"...and to toe the company line, so to speak?

[ReplayRandall]

Without putting yourself out on a limb, Mark...could you imagine a circumstance under which the track handicapper might be "coerced" by the higher-ups to tone down the "objective analysis"...and to toe the company line, so to speak?
Mountaineer is a "cult" track....Mark's banter is a perfect fit, they love him there.

[bob60566]

Keep up the good work Mark and i do enjoy your insights, Although some nights i wonder where my insights are.
Long time Mountineer fan.

[mountainman]

Without putting yourself out on a limb, Mark...could you imagine a circumstance under which the track handicapper might be "coerced" by the higher-ups to tone down the "objective analysis"...and to toe the company line, so to speak?

Gus, I've been blessed in that regard. Management has always valued my services and understood what I do. And I hope at this stage I've amassed some cred and that my rep, perhaps, precedes me.

I really can't speak for other analysts, because I've never found them to be very "collegial" and have interacted with few of my peers. I don't think many engage in my form of brinkmanship, but individual forms of candor does, of course, characterize the commentary of some elite analysts, such as Serling, or Brad Thomas.

But you CAN bet they get bitched about. It just goes with the territory.

Much respect, my good friend.

[mountainman]

Without putting yourself out on a limb, Mark...could you imagine a circumstance under which the track handicapper might be "coerced" by the higher-ups to tone down the "objective analysis"...and to toe the company line, so to speak?

Upon further reflection...I do recall an incident that involved my calling a "super trainer" out for incurring a bad test. The guy actually hired a lawyer who called Rosemary and demanded I apologize on the air. She did contemplate having me render said apology ( which I would have done to preserve my job), but finally said "@#%# 'em. Let them sue!!"

And I was once told to quit saying "The circus is in town" when we carded WV bred races. But that was long ago and before the program made reasonable strides.

I was also dressed down once for employing the code word "Iditarod" to characterize exceptionally bad fields.

And I have, of course, had numerous jocks complain about my commentary. One in particular stands out for having demanded "satisfaction." (A sobering prospect, indeed, since I am sadly untutored in the art of fencing.) But management has NEVER sided with a single jock or trainer who beefed about me.

And another thing I have never, ever, been rebuked for is frankly stating, when appropriate, that I would NOT bet the race at hand with real money. Management well understands the long range value of on-air credibility.

[Robert Fischer]

Mountaineer is a "cult" track....Mark's banter is a perfect fit, they love him there.

:ThmbUp: Greatly enjoy Mark's banter. I'm guilty of tuning in, listening to Mark break down a race, informed betting along with the narrative, and then hanging around to wager more races than I had planned.

[thaskalos]

Upon further reflection...I do recall an incident that involved my calling a "super trainer" out for incurring a bad test. The guy actually hired a lawyer who called Rosemary and demanded I apologize on the air. She did contemplate having me render said apology ( which I would have done to preserve my job), but finally said "@#%# 'em. Let them sue!!"

And I was once told to quit saying "The circus is in town" when we carded WV bred races. But that was long ago and before the program made reasonable strides.

I was also dressed down once for employing the code word "Iditarod" to characterize exceptionally bad fields.

And I have, of course, had numerous jocks complain about my commentary. One in particular stands out for having demanded "satisfaction." (A sobering prospect, indeed, since I am sadly untutored in the art of fencing.) But management has NEVER sided with a single jock or trainer who beefed about me.

And another thing I have never, ever, been rebuked for is frankly stating, when appropriate, that I would NOT bet the race at hand with real money. Management well understands the long range value of on-air credibility.

I much appreciate the breadth of your reply, Mark...and I am glad that the Mountaineer management appreciates the value of your candor as a track handicapper. In the various TVG threads that invariably appear here...it always amazes me when the opinion is voiced that a handicapping host should never express dissatisfaction with the betting value being offered by a particular race...for fear that this would somehow undermine the real job that the host is paid to do. IMO...whatever short-term gain a betting institution may attain from having its host recommend wagers for every single race PALES when compared to the long-term harm that such an irresponsible act inevitably brings forth. The game is hard enough even without the irresponsible touting that we see from some of our racing institutions.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply at such length...and please be assured that my respect for you outweighs whatever respect you might have for me. :ThmbUp:

[Saratoga_Mike]

As part of package deal, Century Casinos announced plans to acquire Mountaineer from Eldorado this morning. I'd guess it doesn't mean too much for the racing product, but not entirely sure.

[mountainman]

As part of package deal, Century Casinos announced plans to acquire Mountaineer from Eldorado this morning. I'd guess it doesn't mean too much for the racing product, but not entirely sure.

Deal kicks in next year. Much uncertainty in the ranks here. Reading each player's intent not so easy. Looks complicated beyond my meager grasp of such affairs.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Deal kicks in next year. Much uncertainty in the ranks here. Reading each player's intent not so easy. Looks complicated beyond my meager grasp of such affairs.

CNTY is a collection of subscale casinos located in a number of countries. Last year, CNTY did approximately $23 mm in EBITDA (proxy for cash flow), whereas ERI generated over $500 mm in 2018 EBITDA. I'd peg MNR's 2019 EBITDA around $12 mm to $15 mm. So post-close (includes two other casinos), Mountaineer will be more of needle mover for the CNTY vs. under the ownership of ERI.

[paddy79]

I blocked you for an accumulation of negativity toward Mountaineer. I don't remember any harness horse comment but I highly doubt it was "polite." More likely, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If you don't like Mountaineer, don't play it.

I can't help but read your posts in your commentator voice. Lol. Nice work, my favourite commentator. "shes gone off like a scalded cat" cracked me up last night:D

[clicknow]

I was also dressed down once for employing the code word "Iditarod" to characterize exceptionally bad fields.

Died laughing at this one. You are a gem.

[Teentrifecta]

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/mountaineer-park-to-be-sold/

Century Downs in Calgary was originally going to be the be all and end all of racetracks in western Canada when it was designed in roughly 2012-13 but was scaled back when the oil sands (think North Dakota Bakken of Canada) crashed a few years back. What is left is a casino way out in sticks with a 5/8 parking lot for a track. It really is a sorry excuse for a racetrack both stock quality and layout wise, but again I think allot of that had to do with economic conditions vs Centuries view towards racing.

But.........

Century Mile (https://www.cnty.com/centurymile/) about 3 hours up the road adjacent to Edmonton International Airport is great, a mile long and you can really tell is geared around the racing product (they brought in Michael Wrona to announce on Saturdays) and I think I heard they already raised purses this season.

If I were involved in the horse racing side of things at Mountaineer I would feel relieved we were getting bought out by a company that genuinely tries to push racing product vs say a major racing conglomerate that only cares about casino's bottom line outside of one race each May......

[mountainman]

CNTY is a collection of subscale casinos located in a number of countries. Last year, CNTY did approximately $23 mm in EBITDA (proxy for cash flow), whereas ERI generated over $500 mm in 2018 EBITDA. I'd peg MNR's 2019 EBITDA around $12 mm to $15 mm. So post-close (includes two other casinos), Mountaineer will be more of needle mover for the CNTY vs. under the ownership of ERI.

A Mnr fan who has become an increasingly close friend of mine is recently retired from a key role as a financial adviser to the space program. This guy has made a fortune investing in land and told me that given how this deal is structured, it's virtually impossible that the intention is anything but to continue in the gambling industry.

[Saratoga_Mike]

A Mnr fan who has become an increasingly close friend of mine is recently retired from a key role as a financial adviser to the space program. This guy has made a fortune investing in land and told me that given how this deal is structured, it's virtually impossible that the intention is anything but to continue in the gambling industry.

Well that is CNTY's biz - your friend is referring to the sale/leaseback aspect of the deal with VICI.

[mountainman]

Well that is CNTY's biz - your friend is referring to the sale/leaseback aspect of the deal with VICI.

He said also that the buyers are extremely sharp and have gone about this in a way that hugely indemnifies them from taxes.

[MONEY]

I think that Mountaineer has an All You Can Eat buffet in the jockey's room.
There are at least a dozen weight changes today, all of them adding weight.
Some as much as 5 pounds.

[cj]

I think that Mountaineer has an All You Can Eat buffet in the jockey's room.
There are at least a dozen weight changes today, all of them adding weight.
Some as much as 5 pounds.

To be fair I don't think any weight changes ever deduct weight. :)

[dcowboy7]

I like the $2.20 SHOW payouts.

When theres a big fav put down $200 make a quick $20.

Sometimes they have like $150k in the SHOW pool.

[Jeff P]

So there I was -- watching the horses in the paddock for R5 tonight while listening to Mark and Nancy...

I think I saw Faith Schorr get a leg up on the #1 horse and begin making her way towards the track for the post parade...

But the riders of the #2, #3, and #4 refused to take their mounts.

This resulted in the connections of those horses starting to go nuts - gesturing towards the track and yelling at the riders.

The riders weren't having any of it though. They just stood there staring off into space with their arms folded across their chests.

Then after a 2 or 3 minute delay the entire field left the paddock and there was a post parade.

What was that?



-jp

.

[Afleet]

what is real reason they cancelled today?

[AlbertButtry]

There was an active shooter situation in the area

[rexjred]

suspect shit going on tonight at mountaineer race 2 and 3. starting to think Mountaineer is only good for the show bets/ bridge jumps

[jay68802]

suspect shit going on tonight at mountaineer race 2 and 3. starting to think Mountaineer is only good for the show bets/ bridge jumps

Like what? The turf favoring speed?

[mountainman]

Note to w.o. -please ride my selections out to the finish. you've made great strides amidst a career year. i am very good friends with your agent and have rightfully praised one or two of your rides as real gems in the last month. but what happened last night can NEVER happen.

[rexjred]

Like what? The turf favoring speed?


Thats not turf. Thats dirt with grass clippings.

[jay68802]

Also seen the turf there so long, I offered to trailer my mower out there for them to use. If you see a condition, and think its affecting the race, adjust your handicapping.

[rexjred]

Note to w.o. -please ride my selections out to the finish. you've made great strides amidst a career year. i am very good friends with your agent and have rightfully praised one or two of your rides as real gems in the last month. but what happened last night can NEVER happen.

Mountaineer is unplayable. Too many 4k claimers that quit more than Lana Turner.

[mountainman]

Mountaineer is unplayable.

Opinion varies.

[ReplayRandall]

Opinion varies.
A nice "grind" track with the occasional nice BOMB hit...:ThmbUp:

[mountainman]

Too many 4k claimers that quit more than Lana Turner.

At least Lana fired big once.

[mountainman]

Note to w.o. -please ride my selections out to the finish. you've made great strides amidst a career year. i am very good friends with your agent and have rightfully praised one or two of your rides as real gems in the last month. but what happened last night can NEVER happen.

15 days plus fine. Validation for calling him out in the recap.

[bob60566]

Mark

Can you point me in the direction to find the current Jockey agents list for Mountineer this season.

Txs Bob

[mountainman]

Our condition book, sir. right on the website. and I will answer any questions you might have about their hierarchy and feudal wars...etc, either in open forum or via private message.

[bob60566]

Mark

Went to the condition book and no luck in finding agents for the jocks. all i got was this

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorsemenAreaDownloadAction.cfm?sn=CBI-MNR-20190908-20190929D

[AltonKelsey]

Mountaineer is unplayable. Too many 4k claimers that quit more than Lana Turner.

google had more hits on Lana Turner off your post , than in the last 5 years

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mark

Went to the condition book and no luck in finding agents for the jocks. all i got was this

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorsemenAreaDownloadAction.cfm?sn=CBI-MNR-20190908-20190929D

Here's a list, but it may be stale

https://thoroughbredtrainersinformationguide.com/jockeyagent-directory/mountaineer/

[bob60566]

Thanks Mike

That is what i was looking for but it is out date, Sure Mark will post the updated link as i cannot find it.

[mountainman]

Thanks Mike

That is what i was looking for but it is out date, Sure Mark will post the updated link as i cannot find it.

That list is ancient. I'll post a current one. Curious what you want it for, sir? If it's the psychology of why which jocks ride what horses, I often peel the curtain back (just enough to make those involved a bit uncomfortable) and delve into this on the show.

But just to be very clear, I would never, ever, consciously show favoritism or outright pander to any rider. They all hate me alike, which enables me to look myself in the mirror.

[AltonKelsey]

NYRA used to publish the Agents in the condition book

The book they have online now, has NO agent list

Anyone know why, or where to find the infomation ?