Major Hit Piece on Our Sport

[Ocala Mike]

It would be nice to dismiss this as just some WaPo sensationalism, but there are more than just "grains" of truth in what she writes. Unfortunately, I think the whole Kentucky Derby incident moves racing further down in the public's eye, unless you are a firm believer in the old adage that bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/05/forget-maximum-securitys-misstep-whole-horse-racing-is-foul/?noredirect=on&utm_source=pocket-newtab&utm_term=.97303dc5b7af

[Grits]

WOW, as in BAD. This may be the worst thing written yet about the sport. A lot of what she's written, though, is long overdue and has been continuously battled by horsemen.

[castaway01]

It would be nice to dismiss this as just some WaPo sensationalism, but there are more than just "grains" of truth in what she writes. Unfortunately, I think the whole Kentucky Derby incident moves racing further down in the public's eye, unless you are a firm believer in the old adage that bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/05/forget-maximum-securitys-misstep-whole-horse-racing-is-foul/?noredirect=on&utm_source=pocket-newtab&utm_term=.97303dc5b7af

It certainly tears the sport apart, though I'm not sure why you think the DQ has anything to do with it---she says they got that right by the rules---it's just a springboard to discuss all of the other things wrong with the sport that we constantly have discussed here. None of this is new; the question is what racing is going to do to resolve any of it.

[Tom]

Tee shirt give-a-way day! :jump::jump:

[Zman179]

It certainly tears the sport apart, though I'm not sure why you think the DQ has anything to do with it---she says they got that right by the rules---it's just a springboard to discuss all of the other things wrong with the sport that we constantly have discussed here. None of this is new; the question is what racing is going to do to resolve any of it.

Nothing. Tracks with casinos would LOVE if racing would just disappear and the tracks that don’t have casinos are too fractured to collectively band together and only worry about their best interests.

[bob60566]

The tracks could form a committee to decide how to halt this decline in Horse racing.:bang:

Tee shirt give-a-way day! Do not work as most have tried this,

[AskinHaskin]

how to halt this decline in Horse racing.:bang:




You start by letting everyone play with similar chances of success

(as is the case in almost every other gaming venture in our society).



Now whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hasn't anyone ever implemented that before???




LOL - I mean, why do we even bother allowing newcomers to pay admission and enter the facility???


Newcomers should be banned, and simultaneously protected from horse racing (if the present is indicative of how you're going to treat them ).

[thaskalos]

"This isn't a sport; it's a fancied-up vice."

This reporter knows how to make a point.

[PaceAdvantage]

You start by letting everyone play with similar chances of success

(as is the case in almost every other gaming venture in our society).



Now whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hasn't anyone ever implemented that before???




LOL - I mean, why do we even bother allowing newcomers to pay admission and enter the facility???


Newcomers should be banned, and simultaneously protected from horse racing (if the present is indicative of how you're going to treat them ).And I once thought you were MAYBE serious in your opinions. Now I know better.

[thaskalos]

You start by letting everyone play with similar chances of success

(as is the case in almost every other gaming venture in our society).



Now whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hasn't anyone ever implemented that before???




LOL - I mean, why do we even bother allowing newcomers to pay admission and enter the facility???


Newcomers should be banned, and simultaneously protected from horse racing (if the present is indicative of how you're going to treat them ).

Who is preventing the newcomers from winning?

[AlsoEligible]

That's rough. Saw this thread title and thought HBO had finally released the segment they've been working on:

https://twitter.com/FHF_Victoria/status/1114385317014966272

Guess we're still waiting for that shoe to drop. Around Preakness would be my guess.

It's been about 6 weeks since the last breakdown at Santa Anita. Usually by now the public and the media would have lost interest and moved on. But not this time. Not a great sign.

[cutchemist42]

That's rough. Saw this thread title and thought HBO had finally released the segment they've been working on:

https://twitter.com/FHF_Victoria/status/1114385317014966272

Guess we're still waiting for that shoe to drop. Around Preakness would be my guess.

It's been about 6 weeks since the last breakdown at Santa Anita. Usually by now the public and the media would have lost interest and moved on. But not this time. Not a great sign.

That is going to hurt big time......HBO has done one before right?

I'm at the point where I know this sport has a limited lifetime in the USA.

[classhandicapper]

The sport has obvious major problems, but if you are going to write a serious article about horse racing or do a show on it, you should present both sides and let the facts do the talking. This is major problem in journalism today. It's not journalism anymore. It's some prick with an opinion knowingly trying to influence everyone else with spin and half the story (sometimes even lies).

Not too many things get me really pissed off. But I hate one sided hit pieces and think the people that write/do them are scumbags. That covers a LOT of so called journalists today. Sorry for the rant.

[delsully]

That's rough. Saw this thread title and thought HBO had finally released the segment they've been working on:

https://twitter.com/FHF_Victoria/status/1114385317014966272

Guess we're still waiting for that shoe to drop. Around Preakness would be my guess.

It's been about 6 weeks since the last breakdown at Santa Anita. Usually by now the public and the media would have lost interest and moved on. But not this time. Not a great sign.

HBO can save some money and use outtakes from Luck, damn hypocrites.

[thaskalos]

The sport has obvious major problems, but if you are going to write a serious article about horse racing or do a show on it, you should present both sides and let the facts do the talking. This is major problem in journalism today. It's not journalism anymore. It's some prick with an opinion knowingly trying to influence everyone else with spin and half the story (sometimes even lies).

Not too many things get me really pissed off. But I hate one sided hit pieces and think the people that write/do them are scumbags. That covers a LOT of so called journalists today. Sorry for the rant.

Whom within the industry would you consider qualified to present the "other side" in a debate against these 'one-sided hit pieces' that you rail against? Who is out there to provide the "facts"...in order to refute these "lies"? Does the industry have an acknowledged "representative" whom I am unaware of?

[castaway01]

The sport has obvious major problems, but if you are going to write a serious article about horse racing or do a show on it, you should present both sides and let the facts do the talking. This is major problem in journalism today. It's not journalism anymore. It's some prick with an opinion knowingly trying to influence everyone else with spin and half the story (sometimes even lies).

Not too many things get me really pissed off. But I hate one sided hit pieces and think the people that write/do them are scumbags. That covers a LOT of so called journalists today. Sorry for the rant.

Sally Jenkins is a columnist, and columnists write opinion pieces. That's literally their job. Jenkins has had a long-time dislike of horse racing, that's true. But why don't you point out all the places she outright lies in the column?

Some of us here have repeatedly said, "Wait until someone really digs into the dirt here, racing is screwed." Not sure why you're shocked people are now doing it. Most of the stuff she wrote about has been discussed here for months or even years.

[bob60566]

Maybe this is what they need for the penny to drop and see the light and Del Mar can speed along there development of stakeholders committee.

[AlsoEligible]

That is going to hurt big time......HBO has done one before right?

I'm at the point where I know this sport has a limited lifetime in the USA.

Twice it looks like. One in May 2008 (https://awionline.org/content/hbo-real-sports-exposes-underbelly-thoroughbred-racing) about slaughterhouses, then another in May 2014 (https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/hbos-real-sports-to-feature-interview-with-asmussen/) about drug use.

I'm sure timing both of these within the Triple Crown is no coincidence, so I'd expect the 2019 piece to drop this month as well. Wouldn't be surprised if they just reuse a lot of old footage, talk about the current breakdowns, and then make the point that not much has changed in the 11 or 5 years since they first aired those segments.

[classhandicapper]

Whom within the industry would you consider qualified to present the "other side" in a debate against these 'one-sided hit pieces' that you rail against? Who is out there to provide the "facts"...in order to refute these "lies"? Does the industry have an acknowledged "representative" whom I am unaware of?

If you are implying that racing isn't particularly organized, I agree with you.

Each of the tracks and stewards can speak for themselves. There are plenty of Eclipse Award winning trainers, owners, breeders, and riders that are thoughtful and could represent the industry well in an interview if someone asked. There are plenty of vets. Someone like the Jockey Club could probably provide plenty of data.

My problem is not with whether or not we are going to look bad. I already know there are problems. My problem is with people that decide they don't like horse racing (or whatever else) and then decide to use their position to try to destroy it instead of actually reporting in a balanced way and allowing people to judge for themselves what they approve of and what they don't.

[classhandicapper]

Sally Jenkins is a columnist, and columnists write opinion pieces. That's literally their job.

How about this?

Even an opinion piece should be based on a balanced review of the facts. That's how I form my opinions. But if you go into it with an agenda and only give people one side of the story, you aren't doing the public a service and I don't respect what you do.

I have no use for agenda driven reporting of any type.

I'm trying to gain information, not be told what to think.

[thaskalos]

If you are implying that racing isn't particularly organized, I agree with you.

Each of the tracks and stewards can speak for themselves. There are plenty of Eclipse Award winning trainers, owners, breeders, and riders that are thoughtful and could represent the industry well in an interview if someone asked. There are plenty of vets. Someone like the Jockey Club could probably provide plenty of data.

My problem is not with whether or not we are going to look bad. I already know there are problems. My problem is with people that decide they don't like horse racing (or whatever else) and then decide to use their position to try to destroy it instead of actually reporting in a balanced way and allowing people to judge for themselves what they approve of and what they don't.

What I am implying is that, not only isn't this game "particularly organized"...it is downright DYSFUNCTIONAL. The absence of a main governing body and widely-applicable rules bring the sort of instability to this game which disqualifies it from being called a legitimate "sport"...and reduces it to what this reporter called it; a "fancied-up vice". And...no matter who the horse racing "insider" may be...he/she would have a horrible time trying to dispute this assertion...no matter what "facts" he/she brings to the debating table.

[Tom]

You start by letting everyone play with similar chances of success

(as is the case in almost every other gaming venture in our society).


Now whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hasn't anyone ever implemented that before???


[/b].

I totally agree with this much of your post!

[AndyC]

What I am implying is that, not only isn't this game "particularly organized"...it is downright DYSFUNCTIONAL. The absence of a main governing body and widely-applicable rules bring the sort of instability to this game which disqualifies it from being called a legitimate "sport"...and reduces it to what this reported called it; a "fancied-up vice". And...no matter who the horse racing "insider" may be...he/she would have a horrible time trying to dispute this assertion...no matter what "facts" he/she brings to the debating table.

Right now we have the tracks, the horsemen, and the state governments running horse racing so adding a main governing body would make things less dysfunctional? I cringed watching Randy Moss on Saturday say that racing needs to have the Federal government get involved to solve its problems. What could possibly go wrong there? People who know little or nothing about racing making all the rules and regulations.

Racing is a game of gambling and shouldn't be put in the "sport" category. If many people would still pay to go watch races even if they couldn't bet then I would call it a sport.

[thaskalos]

Right now we have the tracks, the horsemen, and the state governments running horse racing so adding a main governing body would make things less dysfunctional? I cringed watching Randy Moss on Saturday say that racing needs to have the Federal government get involved to solve its problems. What could possibly go wrong there? People who know little or nothing about racing making all the rules and regulations.

Racing is a game of gambling and shouldn't be put in the "sport" category. If many people would still pay to go watch races even if they couldn't bet then I would call it a sport.

As I've said in another thread...you can't call this just a "gambling game", and then justify the fact that so many horses die every year on the track just so some gamblers out there can get their kicks. So...you call it a "sport", and lend it a little more legitimacy...until the public catches on, that is. And that day may be coming sooner rather than later.

[AndyC]

As I've said in another thread...you can't call this just a "gambling game", and then justify the fact that so many horses die every year on the track just so some gamblers out there can get their kicks. So...you call it a "sport", and lend it a little more legitimacy...until the public catches on, that is. And that day may be coming sooner rather than later.

I agree with that viewpoint.

[classhandicapper]

I think it would be nice to have some kind of governing body, but I think asking the government to get involved would be a terrible mistake. Then you'd have a bunch of corrupt incompetents that know nothing about racing making corrupt political decisions instead of informed people making decisions based on what's best for racing. Getting there may be more idealistic than realistic though because so many states are involved. It would probably be tough to get them to agree on anything.

[thaskalos]

I agree with that viewpoint.

I finally got you to agree with me. I can now retire my posting career in peace. :)

[classhandicapper]

As I've said in another thread...you can't call this just a "gambling game", and then justify the fact that so many horses die every year on the track just so some gamblers out there can get their kicks. So...you call it a "sport", and lend it a little more legitimacy...until the public catches on, that is. And that day may be coming sooner rather than later.

I agree with what you are saying, but people in Dubai could easily counter that it's obviously a sport also because they don't allow gambling on their races yet they still spend enormous sums breeding, raising and racing horses because they love the "sport" and animals.

I don't know if any horses ever die during polo matches, but I'm going to guess it happens from time to time. And I'm also going to guess that somewhere in his world someone is gambling on the results off shore. ;)

[Robert Fischer]

it's good business for everybody

there's a relatively small but significant 'spike' in interest. Everything related to the industry (even the hit-and-run artists) are pumping out content. :ThmbUp:

bull market

[The_Turf_Monster]

The sport can take hit piece upon hit piece on breakdowns imo, there are corrective measures that can be taken to at least appear that the industry is trying. What it cannot survive is what will happen when people start digging around and writing pieces on what happens to the overwhelming bulk of the 20,000 thoroughbreds foaled every year once they are no longer racing. The data is out there to watch a horse competing at the highest levels pass from the industry's leading trainers from allowance and stakes races into the claiming ranks and all the way down the ladder to some of the industry's worst states and tracks and eventually into kill pens.......all the while being drugged to get one more race out of the horse

[Valuist]

What does Sally Jenkins know about horse racing? What gives her any credibility? From what I've seen of her in a few appearances on ESPN, I don't know why they have her on.

Trying to tie the Derby to the horse deaths at Santa Anita is a reach. And how nice of her to warn of the "evils of gambling".

The only credibility for the Post was when Beyer still wrote for them.

[AndyC]

What does Sally Jenkins know about horse racing? What gives her any credibility? From what I've seen of her in a few appearances on ESPN, I don't know why they have her on.

Trying to tie the Derby to the horse deaths at Santa Anita is a reach. And how nice of her to warn of the "evils of gambling".

The only credibility for the Post was when Beyer still wrote for them.

If she represents the majority of people who aren't involved in racing the game is in dire straights. It's hard enough to draw new people to the races and it won't be any easier if they have already established a negative opinion.

[castaway01]

What does Sally Jenkins know about horse racing? What gives her any credibility? From what I've seen of her in a few appearances on ESPN, I don't know why they have her on.

Trying to tie the Derby to the horse deaths at Santa Anita is a reach. And how nice of her to warn of the "evils of gambling".

The only credibility for the Post was when Beyer still wrote for them.

She's written 12 books about various athletes including two best-sellers about Lance Armstrong.

She's four-time AP national sports columnist of the year.

She doesn't like horse racing, at all.

She didn't say anything that people here haven't said numerous times.

[Big K]

The sport has obvious major problems, but if you are going to write a serious article about horse racing or do a show on it, you should present both sides and let the facts do the talking. This is major problem in journalism today. It's not journalism anymore. It's some prick with an opinion knowingly trying to influence everyone else with spin and half the story (sometimes even lies).

Not too many things get me really pissed off. But I hate one sided hit pieces and think the people that write/do them are scumbags. That covers a LOT of so called journalists today. Sorry for the rant.

Well said ,I agree 100 percent!!

[Mulerider]

The data is out there to watch a horse competing at the highest levels pass from the industry's leading trainers from allowance and stakes races into the claiming ranks and all the way down the ladder to some of the industry's worst states and tracks and eventually into kill pens.......

Secretariat's half-brother, Straight Flush, out of Riva Ridge and bred by the Chenery estate, ended up in a Texas kill pen after an unsuccessful career. He changed hands several times, standing at stud for a cheap price, finally ending up at a facility near me called Paradise Farms, where I first boarded my horses for a brief time. How he ended up in a kill pen is unclear.

The kill pen owner, to his credit, identified the horse and let some people know about the horse's plight; he was rescued just a couple of days before his date with the slaughterhouse (without the customary ransom price, I'm told), and retired to a ranch in California where he lived peacefully until his death at age 32.

[cutchemist42]

Can you even have a central body for the sport? I've heard countless times it would violate antitrust law.

[Afleet]

It would be nice to dismiss this as just some WaPo sensationalism, but there are more than just "grains" of truth in what she writes. Unfortunately, I think the whole Kentucky Derby incident moves racing further down in the public's eye, unless you are a firm believer in the old adage that bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/05/forget-maximum-securitys-misstep-whole-horse-racing-is-foul/?noredirect=on&utm_source=pocket-newtab&utm_term=.97303dc5b7af

jeff bezos times?:lol:

[Jeff P]

Can you even have a central body for the sport? I've heard countless times it would violate antitrust law.

Yes we can have a central body.

Racing in Australia is as good an example as any.

More tracks than we have. (Something like 300 plus last time I checked scattered across multiple racing jurisdictions.)

The difference (unlike us) is that after facing the same issues as us (drugs, tote integrity, exchange wagering, rules/licensing for riders, trainers, owners, etc.) the various factions decided it would be in their collective best interest to form a central authority and agree to operate racing in their country under a single (Imo enlightened) set of rules.

I look at the way racing is run in in other parts of the world, and then I look at racing in the US and Canada and I think:

If they can do it in other parts of the world why can't we?

Where's the vision? The leadership?

What the hell is wrong with our industry stakeholders? Are they so stubborn that they can't put aside their differences and come together for the greater good of the sport?


-jp

.

[46zilzal]

Nothing. Tracks with casinos would LOVE if racing would just disappear and the tracks that don’t have casinos are too fractured to collectively band together and only worry about their best interests.


Front offices as those same places are now becoming devoid of horse people and full of corporate casino clowns.

[46zilzal]

Can you even have a central body for the sport? I've heard countless times it would violate antitrust law.

CPMA in Canada is the ONLY governing body and part of the Department of Agriculture.

[thaskalos]

The kill pen owner, to his credit, identified the horse and let some people know about the horse's plight; he was rescued just a couple of days before his date with the slaughterhouse (without the customary ransom price, I'm told), and retired to a ranch in California where he lived peacefully until his death at age 32.

If we had more stories like these...then, perhaps these "one-sided hit pieces" wouldn't have the impact that they now have. But...

[AndyC]

Yes we can have a central body.

Racing in Australia is as good an example as any.

More tracks than we have. (Something like 300 plus last time I checked scattered across multiple racing jurisdictions.)

The difference (unlike us) is that after facing the same issues as us (drugs, tote integrity, exchange wagering, rules/licensing for riders, trainers, owners, etc.) the various factions decided it would be in their collective best interest to form a central authority and agree to operate racing in their country under a single (Imo enlightened) set of rules.

I look at the way racing is run in in other parts of the world, and then I look at racing in the US and Canada and I think:

If they can do it in other parts of the world why can't we?

Where's the vision? The leadership?

What the hell is wrong with our industry stakeholders? Are they so stubborn that they can't put aside their differences and come together for the greater good of the sport?


-jp

.

To put things in perspective, Australia has a population of 24.5 million people, 15 million people less than the state of California. To have a central body you would need to have the states as well as the large tracks or circuits give up their power. Can't see California, Kentucky, or New York doing that.

[Steve R]

Whom within the industry would you consider qualified to present the "other side" in a debate against these 'one-sided hit pieces' that you rail against? Who is out there to provide the "facts"...in order to refute these "lies"? Does the industry have an acknowledged "representative" whom I am unaware of?
What exactly is the "other side?" The uninvolved American public sees a thousand racing-related deaths a year, thousands more retired race horses sent to slaughter and a continual stream of news stories about drug use (equine and human) and cheating by jockeys and trainers. If the appeal is to the romance, excitement and history of the game, the public couldn't care less because horses are irrelevant to 99% of the people.

Perhaps the best way to present the game is to present it for what it actually is - gambling option that provides a unique kind of entertainment. Those who do find racing relevant have already made a conscious decision to either ignore or passively accept the game's realities.

And there actually is no debate. The stuff people find objectionable about racing is real and no amount of discussion will make the violence and/or corruption palatable to those who find those things offensive, which includes just about every non-racing fan.

I'll put it this way. Very few people give a crap about an American Pharoah, a Zenyatta or even a Secretariat. Take a random poll on the street and I would be surprised if more than a couple out of a hundred have even heard of Zenyatta. The game is simply no longer in the mainstream of American consciousness.

[Mulerider]

If we had more stories like these...then, perhaps these "one-sided hit pieces" wouldn't have the impact that they now have. But...

Yes. And I had a senior moment earlier: Straight Flush's dam was Somethingroyal, same as Secretariat. His sire was Riva Ridge.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Secretariat's half-brother, Straight Flush, out of Riva Ridge and bred by the Chenery estate, ended up in a Texas kill pen after an unsuccessful career. He changed hands several times, standing at stud for a cheap price, finally ending up at a facility near me called Paradise Farms, where I first boarded my horses for a brief time. How he ended up in a kill pen is unclear.

The kill pen owner, to his credit, identified the horse and let some people know about the horse's plight; he was rescued just a couple of days before his date with the slaughterhouse (without the customary ransom price, I'm told), and retired to a ranch in California where he lived peacefully until his death at age 32.

20,000 horses a year aren't getting that kind of treatment though unfortunately

[Blenheim]

What exactly is the "other side?" The uninvolved American public sees a thousand racing-related deaths a year, thousands more retired race horses sent to slaughter and a continual stream of news stories about drug use (equine and human) and cheating by jockeys and trainers. If the appeal is to the romance, excitement and history of the game, the public couldn't care less because horses are irrelevant to 99% of the people.

Perhaps the best way to present the game is to present it for what it actually is - gambling option that provides a unique kind of entertainment. Those who do find racing relevant have already made a conscious decision to either ignore or passively accept the game's realities.

And there actually is no debate. The stuff people find objectionable about racing is real and no amount of discussion will make the violence and/or corruption palatable to those who find those things offensive, which includes just about every non-racing fan.

I'll put it this way. Very few people give a crap about an American Pharoah, a Zenyatta or even a Secretariat. Take a random poll on the street and I would be surprised if more than a couple out of a hundred have even heard of Zenyatta. The game is simply no longer in the mainstream of American consciousness.

It'll be interesting to watch what happens to the sport in the immediate future. I have not doubt that horse racing will always be a part of the American cultural fabric.

Long live the sport . . .

[Mulerider]

20,000 horses a year aren't getting that kind of treatment though unfortunately

Yes, I'm well aware.

[martini]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/05/forget-maximum-securitys-misstep-whole-horse-racing-is-foul/?noredirect=on&utm_source=pocket-newtab&utm_term=.97303dc5b7af

I find it a little opportunistic and disingenuous for Jenkins to lump many of racing's legitimate problems/eyesores together in one tidy article after the controversial KY Derby on Saturday. A lot of these things are not related, but she loads up on her ire for the sport and cranks out her list.

That being said, I don't think many would disagree with what she brings up. I think her tone is a bit unfortunate.

[Katewerk]

It'll be interesting to watch what happens to the sport in the immediate future. I have not doubt that horse racing will always be a part of the American cultural fabric.

Long live the sport . . .


Consider the source: the newspaper industry in more trouble than the sport of horse racing, and for this very reason -- overt bias, agenda journalism (aka "hit pieces"), and fake news.

[castaway01]

Consider the source: the newspaper industry in more trouble than the sport of horse racing, and for this very reason -- overt bias, agenda journalism (aka "hit pieces"), and fake news.

1) It's an opinion column, not a dissertation.
2) What is "fake" in the column? Show your work rather than spouting clichés.

[Katewerk]

1) It's an opinion column, not a dissertation.
2) What is "fake" in the column? Show your work rather than spouting clichés.

I wasn't critiquing the column. I was critiquing the newspaper/news industry.

[thaskalos]

I wasn't critiquing the column. I was critiquing the newspaper/news industry.

Maybe it takes a troubled industry to know one...

[MadVindication]

HBO wants to produce a hit piece to take advantage of an event being almost as divisive as the last season of Game of Thrones.

"Hey look over there"

[Ocala Mike]

The only credibility for the Post was when Beyer still wrote for them.




Well, I guess he still "contributes" to them. Here's his take on "Dqgate" https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-kentucky-derby-decision-was-a-bad-one-country-house-never-had-a-chance-of-winning/2019/05/06/59a584b4-701c-11e9-8be0-ca575670e91c_story.html?utm_term=.5686c026452d

[Tom]

We can't even get tracks to stop running over other tracks with post times.

People who run racing are NOT problems solvers.
They are a lot of things (:rolleyes:), but problem solvers, not a chance.

How many years did it take them to agree on common saddle cloth colors?

Face it, racing is a dinosaur and it will NOT ever pull together for the good the game.

Teach your children how to play slots.

[Tom]

Well, I guess he still "contributes" to them. Here's his take on "Dqgate" https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-kentucky-derby-decision-was-a-bad-one-country-house-never-had-a-chance-of-winning/2019/05/06/59a584b4-701c-11e9-8be0-ca575670e91c_story.html?utm_term=.5686c026452d

He was on ATR with Steve Byk Monday, first hour, too.

[cutchemist42]

CPMA in Canada is the ONLY governing body and part of the Department of Agriculture.

Yes but as I understand Canadian competition laws are different than Americas antitrust laws. I dont even know Australias laws but it might be the same there.

Its antitrust to have rival companies work together unless they are owned in a franchise model like the sport leagues in this continent, and even they barely skirt the legal/illegal line from various opinions I've read.

As an aside, but the 20,000 number being mentioned.....where is that from?

[Jeff P]

There are practical ways to get things done.

One recent example that comes to mind is a rules change adopted by the CHRB in 2017.

Drf.com | Steve Andersen | Apr 02, 2017
Santa Anita alters pick six rules when late surface switch occurs:
https://www.drf.com/news/santa-anita-alters-pick-six-rules-when-late-surface-switch-occurs

ARCADIA, Calif.- Santa Anita recently received approval from the California Horse Racing Board to change the rules regarding pick six distributions in the event of a surface switch after the bet is underway.

The new rule takes effect on Thursday. In the event of a late surface switch, the 15 percent portion of the net pool typically dedicated to the single ticket jackpot provision of the pool will be redirected to the portion of the pool distributed to ticketholders with six winners, or into a carryover.


What you might not know from reading the drf.com article are the actual events that happened behind the scenes.

The process for getting the new rule in place took less than 30 days start to finish.

And believe it or not, that process actually started right here on Paceadvantage!

I wrote about it on the HANA Blog here --

Anatomy of a Rules Change:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2017/04/anatomy-of-rules-change.html

On March 05, 2016 the last race at Santa Anita came off the turf and was made an ALL per the rule they were using for the single jackpot P6.

A poster named CJ summed it perfectly with posts #1, #6, and #10 on this thread at Paceadvantage.com (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136817):

Post #1:

"Last race comes off turf because jockeys say it is dangerous. First, they didn't tell anyone until after the 7th even though there were no intervening turf races.

But the real problem is in the P6 rules. Santa Anita pays out 70% to those that hit all 6, 15% to consos, and carries over 15% if there isn't a single winning ticket. But they made the last race an all, so there is NO CHANCE of a single winning ticket. Yet they are just carrying over the 15% anyway, essentially stealing it from bettors.

It is published beforehand, so buyer beware. That still doesn't make it right. These jackpot bets open up way too many cans of worms for me."



Post #6:

"The right thing to do would be pay out all the money that was bet yesterday in this situation, not every day."


Upon reading CJ's posts in the above linked to thread - I did the unthinkable.

I picked up the phone and contacted the CHRB. I directed them to CJ's thread - and explained to them why players believe the current rule is a bad rule.

Then I asked: "What's the best way to get a bad rule changed?"

My contact at the CHRB advised me that the first step would be to get Santa Anita involved. He explained it to me like this:

"Jeff, if you can get Santa Anita on board in asking for a rules change - at that point I think the CHRB would be willing to go to bat for you."

So from there I contacted track management at Santa Anita by email. I directed them to CJ's thread and explained why I thought the current rule was a bad rule - and that I thought it could be turned into a better rule by following CJ's suggestion:

Post #10:

"I'd write the rule so that if any race comes off the turf, resulting in an "all", the entire amount bet that day is paid out. Of course any carryover from prior days wouldn't be included in that."


Track management at Santa Anita got back to me right away and we had a phone conversation. They told me they were open to getting the rule changed and that they would be getting in touch with the CHRB to figure out how the rule should be reworded and to discuss the path of least resistance for effecting a rules change.

Fyi, the path of least resistance the CHRB used for effecting this particular rules change was something of an eye opener to me.

It turns out that a lot of states, including California, have statutes on the books that allow their racing commissions, when they think taking action would be in the best interest for racing in their state, to adopt existing rules from other racing jurisdictions.

And that's exactly what the CHRB did. They didn't try to reinvent the wheel.

They took an existing RCI rule that other states were already using to handle pick six distributions when surface switches happen after the bet is underway --

And because it was in the best interest for racing in their state:

They adopted it.


Again, there are practical ways to get things done.

Imo, antitrust law isn't what's stopping us.

Imo, the real obstacle seems to be lack of vision and lack of effort when it comes to being proactive.




-jp

.

[thespaah]

It would be nice to dismiss this as just some WaPo sensationalism, but there are more than just "grains" of truth in what she writes. Unfortunately, I think the whole Kentucky Derby incident moves racing further down in the public's eye, unless you are a firm believer in the old adage that bad publicity is better than no publicity at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/05/forget-maximum-securitys-misstep-whole-horse-racing-is-foul/?noredirect=on&utm_source=pocket-newtab&utm_term=.97303dc5b7af

in this piece , there is one sentence that has more than a ring of truth.
More like the decibel level of the Westminster Chimes of Big Ben in London.
"Thoroughbred is in the midst of a moral sickness: Its leaders have lacked the will to organize and implement basic best practices".
To that I add their lack of foresight to better market the sport.
In my opinion there are guilty parties all around.
The horsemen shoulder the blame over their utter disdain for the wagering public and their insatiable desire to eschew all others and control every aspect of racing operations and rule making. What has fueled this arrogant approach is that tracks no longer have to depend upon wagering handle as the sole source for purse revenue. As long as the tracks can nurse at the teat that is casino dollars, the horsemen say they don't need the bettors. Hence the disdainful view of the wagering public.
Track managements shoulder the blame for sagging attendance by refusing to market the sport to younger people.
High volume players , especially those that wager on track have to share the blame because they have shown a disdain for the casual bettor, the so called two dollar player. I have read commentary on here from those who hate tracks like Saratoga and Keeneland because those tracks bring in large crowds and the bigger volume players see those fans as 'getting in their way'...As if to say, "what the hell are YOU doing here?".
Finally, the blame goes on the casual fan or the semi frequent bettor who used to go tot the track a a few times per month. They have pulled their support with far fewer track visits.

[thespaah]

It certainly tears the sport apart, though I'm not sure why you think the DQ has anything to do with it---she says they got that right by the rules---it's just a springboard to discuss all of the other things wrong with the sport that we constantly have discussed here. None of this is new; the question is what racing is going to do to resolve any of it.

"what is racing going to do about it?"...Most likely....nothing.
The powers that be will look with blinkers on(pun intended) at the attendance and handle figures of Derby day and convince themselves that everything is just fine.

[thespaah]

You start by letting everyone play with similar chances of success

(as is the case in almost every other gaming venture in our society).



Now whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy hasn't anyone ever implemented that before???




LOL - I mean, why do we even bother allowing newcomers to pay admission and enter the facility???


Newcomers should be banned, and simultaneously protected from horse racing (if the present is indicative of how you're going to treat them ).
Great idea ...But try getting that past the large volume players who see rebates as an entitlement. Take away their perks and they will scream like a collective bunch of 4 year olds who've been denied their cookies and milk.

[thaskalos]

Great idea ...But try getting that past the large volume players who see rebates as an entitlement. Take away their perks and they will scream like a collective bunch of 4 year olds who've been denied their cookies and milk.

"Screaming" is only the beginning of it. They will also take their big bankrolls to some other endeavor...and our nationwide mutuel handle will sink to unimaginable depths. :eek:

[thespaah]

The sport has obvious major problems, but if you are going to write a serious article about horse racing or do a show on it, you should present both sides and let the facts do the talking. This is major problem in journalism today. It's not journalism anymore. It's some prick with an opinion knowingly trying to influence everyone else with spin and half the story (sometimes even lies).

Not too many things get me really pissed off. But I hate one sided hit pieces and think the people that write/do them are scumbags. That covers a LOT of so called journalists today. Sorry for the rant.

You are spot on..This is nothing more than ONE person with an axe to grind who just so happens to have a laptop with a sticker on it that says "property of the Washington Post".
This is not just the opinion of the writer. This comes directly from the editorial office of the Wash Po.
My guess is the Wash Po could not get an interview with any prominent individual involved with racing, so the editors went ahead and ordered this particular opinion piece be written and published.
As if to say "oh, you refuse to talk to us on the record? OK, we have an opinion. We offered you an opportunity to make a statement. You refused us. And because we're the media, we can write what we wish and now we're going to punish you for your insolence."

[jay68802]

Imo, the real obstacle seems to be lack of vision and lack of effort when it comes to being proactive.




-jp

.

Agree. Then add in the trainers organization and the owners organization that seem to either not want the change or want it watered down to the point that any change has no real effect. A point to this is when the CHRB wanted more out of competition testing. The owners and trainers went with the rule, but had it altered so that they could name a person responsible for the horse when the horse was not on the track. So when a horse does fail the test, the owners and trainers are pretty much off the hook as far as punishment goes. Change in this game can be done, but what the sport really does not want, or need, is change being forced on them by influences such as PETA or other similar organizations. Really cries out for some of the major tracks to "get together" and bring change on their own.

[thespaah]

Sally Jenkins is a columnist, and columnists write opinion pieces. That's literally their job. Jenkins has had a long-time dislike of horse racing, that's true. But why don't you point out all the places she outright lies in the column?

Some of us here have repeatedly said, "Wait until someone really digs into the dirt here, racing is screwed." Not sure why you're shocked people are now doing it. Most of the stuff she wrote about has been discussed here for months or even years.

The issue is she didn't do any digging. She was told by her editors to wreak havoc on the sport. Just because.
While there are a few sentences that do point out genuine issues with the sport, other than those, the remainder of the piece is HER opinion

[thaskalos]

You are spot on..This is nothing more than ONE person with an axe to grind who just so happens to have a laptop with a sticker on it that says "property of the Washington Post".
This is not just the opinion of the writer. This comes directly from the editorial office of the Wash Po.
My guess is the Wash Po could not get an interview with any prominent individual involved with racing, so the editors went ahead and ordered this particular opinion piece be written and published.
As if to say "oh, you refuse to talk to us on the record? OK, we have an opinion. We offered you an opportunity to make a statement. You refused us. And because we're the media, we can write what we wish and now we're going to punish you for your insolence."

Columnist Sally Jenkins published an opinion piece...and several of the posters here have expressed their displeasure with the article. But I still haven't seen a sensible rebuttal to refute the "lies" that Jenkins has supposedly spewed.

[thaskalos]

The issue is she didn't do any digging. She was told by her editors to wreak havoc on the sport. Just because.
While there are a few sentences that do point out genuine issues with the sport, other than those, the remainder of the piece is HER opinion

Are YOU an opinion columnist too? How would you know what the editors tell their columnists?

[thespaah]

How about this?

Even an opinion piece should be based on a balanced review of the facts. That's how I form my opinions. But if you go into it with an agenda and only give people one side of the story, you aren't doing the public a service and I don't respect what you do.

I have no use for agenda driven reporting of any type.

I'm trying to gain information, not be told what to think.

Unfortunately, journalism has devolved into a kind of unseemly practice of doing exactly that. Instead of reporting the facts, media now takes facts and then reports them after careful editing, reports them in a manner so as to form public opinion.
When pools are taken asking respondents questions as to their view of the media and its role in reporting news and the manner in which it is reported, a vast majority of those polls hold very little if any trust in the main stream media to report the facts.

[thespaah]

She's written 12 books about various athletes including two best-sellers about Lance Armstrong.

She's four-time AP national sports columnist of the year.

She doesn't like horse racing, at all.

She didn't say anything that people here haven't said numerous times.

Ignore the awards. Those prizes are issued by the echo chamber in which these elitist arrogant media types exist.

[thaskalos]

How about this?

Even an opinion piece should be based on a balanced review of the facts. That's how I form my opinions. But if you go into it with an agenda and only give people one side of the story, you aren't doing the public a service and I don't respect what you do.

I have no use for agenda driven reporting of any type.

I'm trying to gain information, not be told what to think.

That's why online forums like Paceadvantage.com exist, in part...so the "other side" of the story could also get a voice...and the public at large can get a more balanced view of the topics in question. But when the rebuttals amount to mere mud-slinging themselves...then the public gets even more confused, IMO.

[Racetrack Playa]

This is not just the opinion of the writer. "
Are you sure? It sure seems to me like the opinion of the writer.

Its a book , not her 1st derby, you know what I mean.
Its Free if you have AUDIBLE:ThmbUp:
Funny Cide: How a Horse, a Trainer, a Jockey, and a Bunch of High School Buddies Took on the Sheiks and Bluebloods . . . and Won

by the Finny Cide team and Sally Jenkins

[alydar]

Get real folks, it is an opinion piece, not investigative journalism. If you don't like it write a letter to the editor.

Opinion pieces are part of journalism today and always has been. If you don't like the press so be it, but don't criticize this as an example of what is wrong with journalism today, that is just nonsense.

This was written by an accomplished writer, and has many solid points. Again, if you don't like it respond.

[Ocala Mike]

This:





Columnist Sally Jenkins published an opinion piece...and several of the posters here have expressed their displeasure with the article. But I still haven't seen a sensible rebuttal to refute the "lies" that Jenkins has supposedly spewed.

[AndyC]

........And because it was in the best interest for racing in their state:

They adopted it.


Again, there are practical ways to get things done.

Imo, antitrust law isn't what's stopping us.

Imo, the real obstacle seems to be lack of vision and lack of effort when it comes to being proactive.

-jp

.

Your example shows that when there is unanimous agreement on an issue that changes can certainly be made in an expeditious manner. Can you name some issues that need to be addressed that have the same kind of support?

I don't think there is a lack of vision, there is just too much conflicting vision. I haven't met anybody involved in racing who doesn't have a vision for what needs to be done in racing. What proactive moves can be realistically done now that will benefit everyone in racing?

[Jeff P]

You're right Andy.

It's easy to make progress once all sides agree on something.

It's rare. But every once in a while (and with a little nudging behind the scenes) you can actually get one or more of the sides to realize agreeing on something might be in their long term best interest.

You know what constantly amazes me?

Many of the horsemen (especially those with inner circle leadership positions in horsemen's alphabet groups) run or own their own successful businesses outside of horseracing.

I have a really hard time believing those same successful business men and women would ever apply the same type of vision to their own businesses that they've consistently applied to horseracing.

Call it conflicting vision if you like.

I have to call it the way I see it.

Imo, horseracing in the US and Canada has a lack of vision problem.



-jp

.

[clocker7]

Big whoopie.

The PETA crowd is aligned with the leftwing as another of their nutter constituencies.

It is impossible to have a rational conversation with them.

[classhandicapper]

That's why online forums like Paceadvantage.com exist, in part...so the "other side" of the story could also get a voice...and the public at large can get a more balanced view of the topics in question. But when the rebuttals amount to mere mud-slinging themselves...then the public gets even more confused, IMO.

I disagree.

IMO, a competent responsible person should look at an topic, get input from all sides, evaluate it all, and then come to a conclusion.

Regardless of whether you are a reporter or expressing an opinion, it should be backed by a balanced view of the facts. The only difference should be whether you report all the facts in a balanced way and leave it to the reader to form an opinion or report all the facts in a balanced way and then express your own opinion.

If that opinion happens to be a scathing indictment of a sport or anything else, you are free to express it, but it should be balanced.

This report came from someone that hates racing and went into the article looking for a way to put horse racing in a bad light. I don't care how many awards she's won covering other sports or how well she writes, it was a bullshit hit piece not because it contained lies, but because there was no effort at all at balance.

[Nitro]

by Sally Jenkins
Think for a moment about all of the factors that have to line up just right for a Kentucky Derby runner to be foaled and safely reach the age of 3, how unpredictably the spinning wheel of genetics must stop on just the right alignment of bone and spirit to produce a creature that can hold up while galloping at 45 mph and striking the ground with a force of 5,500 pounds per square inch, on legs shaped like a beauty contestant’s. It’s all chance. Frightening, terrifying chance.
Columnist Sally Jenkins published an opinion piece...and several of the posters here have expressed their displeasure with the article. But I still haven't seen a sensible rebuttal to refute the "lies" that Jenkins has supposedly spewed.

How do you make sense from ignorance? By glorifying some made-up facts that the everyday lay person won’t bother to look up or consider an alternate rationale.

And how about that 2nd paragraph (above) from the editorial!? It didn’t take very long!

You mean all a KY Derby winner has to have is the correct breeding?
What happened to the proper and painstaking conditioning of the animal through workouts and trial races for as long as it takes leading up to the Derby?

Where did the force of 5,500 pounds per square inch come from?
An average thoroughbred has a single hoof that has a typical surface area of 23.75 sq inches.
23.75 sq inches x 5,500 pounds/sq. inch = 130,625 pounds if only a single hoof is in contact with the ground or 65,312 pounds if 2 hoofs are in contact with the ground at the same time.
Does anyone actually believe that this much weight is being supported by the horse’s legs as its running?

It’s NOT “all chance” by any stretch of the imagination! Any equine expert will support the FACT that the horse in and of itself (particularly the thoroughbred) is Designed to run. Calling the beauty, stamina, and fluid dynamics of a horse in full gallop “frightening” or “terrifying” is an outright Lie!
.

[castaway01]

How do you make sense from ignorance? By glorifying some made-up facts that the everyday lay person won’t bother to look up or consider an alternate rationale.

And how about that 2nd paragraph (above) from the editorial!? It didn’t take very long!

You mean all a KY Derby winner has to have is the correct breeding?
What happened to the proper and painstaking conditioning of the animal through workouts and trial races for as long as it takes leading up to the Derby?

Where did the force of 5,500 pounds per square inch come from?
An average thoroughbred has a single hoof that has a typical surface area of 23.75 sq inches.
23.75 sq inches x 5,500 pounds/sq. inch = 130,625 pounds if only a single hoof is in contact with the ground or 65,312 pounds if 2 hoofs are in contact with the ground at the same time.
Does anyone actually believe that this much weight is being supported by the horse’s legs as its running?

It’s NOT “all chance” by any stretch of the imagination! Any equine expert will support the FACT that the horse in and of itself (particularly the thoroughbred) is Designed to run. Calling the beauty, stamina, and fluid dynamics of horse in full gallop “frightening” or “terrifying” is an outright Lie!
.

What you quoted says it is "chance" a horse stays healthy considering how fast it goes and its build, not that the dynamics of the horse or whatever you said are frightening. But then your reading comprehension is right there with your veracity.

[Nitro]

What you quoted says it is "chance" a horse stays healthy considering how fast it goes and its build, not that the dynamics of the horse or whatever you said are frightening. But then your reading comprehension is right there with your veracity.
How you arrived at that conclusion from my critique of Jenkin’s 2nd paragraph only further demonstrates how obtuse your way of thinking goes. Neither I nor she mentioned anything about considering a horse’s health in relation to its speed or its build. Nice try though!

[Franco Santiago]

Whom within the industry would you consider qualified to present the "other side" in a debate against these 'one-sided hit pieces' that you rail against? Who is out there to provide the "facts"...in order to refute these "lies"? Does the industry have an acknowledged "representative" whom I am unaware of?

Todd Schrupp? LOLZZZZZZ

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
Whom within the industry would you consider qualified to present the "other side" in a debate against these 'one-sided hit pieces' that you rail against? Who is out there to provide the "facts"...in order to refute these "lies"? Does the industry have an acknowledged "representative" whom I am unaware of?

Steve Byk~!

[Zydeco]

If a horse galloped at 45 MPH as it says in the article...what would be the final time for a mile and a 1/4?

[Ocala Mike]

1:40 - absurd hypothesis, though.

[Zydeco]

1:40 - absurd hypothesis, though.
Just fact checking.... didn't know horses galloped at 45MPH in races... always thought it was around 30MPH.

[cutchemist42]

Yeah in the end this is a journalist writing an opinion piece.

Right now if with the little to go on, I think it seems worse that HBO is doing a hit piece andd didnt want to listen to any counter point.

[clicknow]

One sided? 3/4 of the stuff in the article is stuff I see discussed as "problems" by people on horse racing forums, inlcuding this one, by the actual supporters/patrons of the sport.

But hey, let's blame the messenger.

[Tom]

But, WE are customers and support the game.

[classhandicapper]

One sided? 3/4 of the stuff in the article is stuff I see discussed as "problems" by people on horse racing forums, inlcuding this one, by the actual supporters/patrons of the sport.

But hey, let's blame the messenger.

Do you understand what balance is?

If there are a hundred things wrong with the sport balance means reporting those 100 things, but also all the things that are good about it. It doesn't matter if your list of 100 are all commonly held opinions if you don't get the other side of the story.

[thaskalos]

Do you understand what balance is?

If there are a hundred things wrong with the sport balance means reporting those 100 things, but also all the things that are good about it. It doesn't matter if your list of 100 are all commonly held opinions if you don't get the other side of the story.

How easy do you suppose it is to come up with a list of the "good things" about this game?

[AndyC]

Do you understand what balance is?

If there are a hundred things wrong with the sport balance means reporting those 100 things, but also all the things that are good about it. It doesn't matter if your list of 100 are all commonly held opinions if you don't get the other side of the story.

So if a person is apprehended right after committing a murder a reporter should be sure to mention that the murderer was an eagle scout, volunteered at a homeless shelter, and went to church every Sunday all in the name of balance?

[Thomas Roulston]

It would appear that no one (else) here noticed that Ms. Jenkins did not advocate that the maximum field size in the Derby be reduced.

And I would bet - no pun intended! - that not only is Ms. Jenkins one of these PETA dorks, but she also has a bad case of Class Warfare Syndrome.

[thaskalos]

So if a person is apprehended right after committing a murder a reporter should be sure to mention that the murderer was an eagle scout, volunteered at a homeless shelter, and went to church every Sunday all in the name of balance?

:ThmbUp:

Yeah...I see how "balanced" these political opinion articles are when they blast or praise the presidential candidate of their choice. :rolleyes:

[Nitro]

How easy do you suppose it is to come up with a list of the "good things" about this game?
That would depend entirely upon the perspective of the person making up that list. The criteria for a list of any dimension would be based on their involvement in the game.

Or I'm sure a person from any walk of life could view movies like Phar Lap (1983), Seabiscuit (2003), or Secretariat (2010) and come up with a list expressing many of the positive aspects of the game.

[thaskalos]

That would depend entirely upon the perspective of the person making up that list. The criteria for a list of any dimension would be based on their involvement in the game.

Or I'm sure a person from any walk of life could view movies like Phar Lap (1983), Seabiscuit (2003), or Secretariat (2010) and come up with a list expressing many of the positive aspects of the game.

Here's the deal, though:

When someone sits down with you and starts listing the many problems that are currently plaguing this game...you can't debate him by regaling him with cute "horsey stories" of years past. You have to come to the table with something a little more substantial than that.

[Thomas Roulston]

Zydeco and Ocala Mike: 1 mile in 1:40 is 36 MPH - which means that Sunday Silence was going 36 MPH when he won the Derby in 1989. :D

[FakeNameChanged]

Zydeco and Ocala Mike: 1 mile in 1:40 is 36 MPH - which means that Sunday Silence was going 36 MPH when he won the Derby in 1989. :D

Uh, he said a mile and 1/4 in 1:40, and that is cookin' it. A quarter mile in 20 seconds and repeat for every 1/4 mile.:D

[Thomas Roulston]

6 furlongs in 1:06 is 40.9 MPH - still significantly slower than Ms. Jenkins' "45 MPH."

Need a fact checker?

I'm in the book, Sally.

[Jeff P]

A look at Equibase chart data shows an opening quarter mile fraction of 20.21 seconds on Aug 3, 2018 in a 5 furlong turf race at Monmouth.

Link to the Equibase PDF Chart here:
https://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=2&BorP=P&TID=MTH&CTRY=USA&DT=08/03/2018&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

Assuming that the time in the chart data is correct - and short of verifying it from video I can't rule out that possibility:

A quarter mile time of 20.21 seconds translates to 65.3142 feet per second

or 44.5324 mph.

Fyi, if the quarter mile time for the above mentioned race is in fact the result of a timing error, there are many other races in the Equibase chart data over the past few years that certainly put the "45 mph" mentioned by the author in the ballpark.

And if all of the other races in the Equibase chart data over the years that get the "45 mph" mentioned by the author in the ballpark turned out to be the result of timing errors?

Wouldn't that in itself kind of make the author's point? :bang: :D


-jp

.

[Racetrack Playa]

The Green Monkey @ the Calder Fasig-Tipton sale 2006
1/8th @ 9.4seconds 0r 47.8 mph.


Feet / second makes more sense to me

[Nitro]

Columnist Sally Jenkins published an opinion piece...and several of the posters here have expressed their displeasure with the article. But I still haven't seen a sensible rebuttal to refute the "lies" that Jenkins has supposedly spewed.So 1st you’re asking for a rebuttal!
How easy do you suppose it is to come up with a list of the "good things" about this game?
Then all you want is a list!
Here's the deal, though:
When someone sits down with you and starts listing the many problems that are currently plaguing this game...you can't debate him by regaling him with cute "horsey stories" of years past. You have to come to the table with something a little more substantial than that.
Now you want to debate the validity of the game.

Buddy you’ve obviously got a real hang-up justifying your personal involvement in a game that many of us thoroughly enjoy at many levels which includes the gambling, the champion fan fare, and yes even the “horsey” movies and literature. Any one of which can offer some real insight into the traditions that hold our interest.

Sure we’d like to see some improvements. But that doesn’t mean we have to go along with counter-productive and demeaning comments made by a so-called journalist.

[castaway01]

So 1st you’re asking for a rebuttal!

Then all you want is a list!

Now you want to debate the validity of the game.

Buddy you’ve obviously got a real hang-up justifying your personal involvement in a game that many of us thoroughly enjoy at many levels which includes the gambling, the champion fan fare, and yes even the “horsey” movies and literature. Any one of which can offer some real insight into the traditions that hold our interest.

Sure we’d like to see some improvements. But that doesn’t mean we have to go along with counter-productive and demeaning comments made by a so-called journalist.

You actually wrote "we'd like to see some improvements" when you've made hundreds of posts about how American racing sucks. I've never seen a post of yours that indicated any enjoyment in anything in American racing, and now you're talking about your love of "horsey movies"? I need boots for all the crap you're shoveling.

Anyone who has read Thaskalos's posts can tell how much he loves the game, which is why its flaws bother him.

[Nitro]

You actually wrote "we'd like to see some improvements" when you've made hundreds of posts about how American racing sucks. I've never seen a post of yours that indicated any enjoyment in anything in American racing, and now you're talking about your love of "horsey movies"? I need boots for all the crap you're shoveling.

Anyone who has read Thaskalos's posts can tell how much he loves the game, which is why its flaws bother him.
Do you have anything better to do then to respond for another PA member?

The last time I looked this discussion was about horse racing in general.

Of course I’ve advocated for making big improvements in our Stateside game. I’ve even offered many suggestions. But I dare you to find a single post where I ever stated “how American racing sucks”. You’ve got some pair buddy!

You see (but you probably don’t) you’re insinuations are as bad as those of the so-called journalist we’re discussing.

I’m sure I’ve had much more interaction with Thaskalos than you could possibly imagine. How would you know what bothers him and what doesn’t? Just some more conjecture on your part I guess. Do yourself a favor and try abstaining from threads that are obviously over your head.

[Thomas Roulston]

A look at Equibase chart data shows an opening quarter mile fraction of 20.21 seconds on Aug 3, 2018 in a 5 furlong turf race at Monmouth.

Link to the Equibase PDF Chart here:
https://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?RACE=2&BorP=P&TID=MTH&CTRY=USA&DT=08/03/2018&DAY=D&STYLE=EQB

Assuming that the time in the chart data is correct - and short of verifying it from video I can't rule out that possibility:

A quarter mile time of 20.21 seconds translates to 65.3142 feet per second

or 44.5324 mph.

Fyi, if the quarter mile time for the above mentioned race is in fact the result of a timing error, there are many other races in the Equibase chart data over the past few years that certainly put the "45 mph" mentioned by the author in the ballpark.

And if all of the other races in the Equibase chart data over the years that get the "45 mph" mentioned by the author in the ballpark turned out to be the result of timing errors?

Wouldn't that in itself kind of make the author's point? :bang: :D


-jp

.



But how many 2-furlong races are run every year?

And no North American track has ever run a turf race shorter than 4 1/2 furlongs.

[thaskalos]

Buddy you’ve obviously got a real hang-up justifying your personal involvement in a game that many of us thoroughly enjoy at many levels which includes the gambling, the champion fan fare, and yes even the “horsey” movies and literature. Any one of which can offer some real insight into the traditions that hold our interest.

Sure we’d like to see some improvements. But that doesn’t mean we have to go along with counter-productive and demeaning comments made by a so-called journalist.

No one is asking you to go along with ANYBODY'S "counter-productive and demeaning comments"...but you can't deny people the right to voice their opinions...regardless of how much you disagree with them. And...when you endeavor to prove someone's opinions wrong...then you have to produce some concrete opinions of your own...instead of the generalities that you regale us with here. I asked a general question about the "good points" of the current game...and you countered by naming some Hollywood movies the point of which has nothing to do with the topic of our conversation here. You might enjoy cute horsey stories, and that's all well and good...but that's hardly a counter-argument when debating someone who is addressing the serious problems that our game is currently facing.

Sure I love this game...and I want it to stick around for many years to come. But that won't happen if we just cover up the game's serious faults...while we swap cute stories of the glorious days of yesteryear. Those of us who have faithfully supported this game for many years reserve the right to criticize it when it becomes necessary...regardless of how "counter-productive and demeaning" our criticism may seem to some.

[thaskalos]

I’m sure I’ve had much more interaction with Thaskalos than you could possibly imagine.

You have me at a disadvantage; I honestly can't recall interacting with you on a wide scale here...mainly because your focus seems to be on the overseas version of the game...something that I am not particularly interested in. Sure...we've gotten into the occasional scrape here...but I don't know that this could accurately be called "more interaction than you could possibly imagine...". Might you have me confused with someone else?

[Ocala Mike]

So, given all the Derby kerfluffle, I don't guess it would be a good idea to lighten up Sally Jenkins' weekend by sending her this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdDwm3QIwfg&list=RDZdDwm3QIwfg&start_radio=1&fbclid=IwAR3a4CNNlhd--l8hDBJ0KiyX9ikqVIGSQ0U1IWQ8aN8R4tEnk9PbbkCEbIo

[classhandicapper]

So if a person is apprehended right after committing a murder a reporter should be sure to mention that the murderer was an eagle scout, volunteered at a homeless shelter, and went to church every Sunday all in the name of balance?

lmao.

I would consider balance in a murder case to be using words like "accused", and "alleged", the inclusion of any details related to the motive, and whether there are any witnesses that dispute the official story.

if there are mitigating circumstances (like a fight that escalated) you have to include information like that because there are degrees of murder that involve different punishments.

If you didn't show that kind of balance, your audience would presume the worst and for all we know the guy may not even be guilty.

[classhandicapper]

How easy do you suppose it is to come up with a list of the "good things" about this game?

How about this?

classhandicapper and his partners love their horses (only 2 right now) and always make sure they have a good home when injuries and/or lack of talent end their racing careers. ;)

[Ocala Mike]

Also that small-time breeder Ocala Mike bought an aged mare (Party Cut Up) out of a dispersal sale for $900, saved her from the killers, bred her to Island Whirl, and watched her filly, Island Party, win for her owners at River Downs. Gave her a good life here afterwards, too.

[The_Turf_Monster]

But how many 2-furlong races are run every year?

And no North American track has ever run a turf race shorter than 4 1/2 furlongs.

It was either Atlantic City or Meadowlands that was running turf sprints at a few hundred yards within the last 10 years

[thaskalos]

Also that small-time breeder Ocala Mike bought an aged mare (Party Cut Up) out of a dispersal sale for $900, saved her from the killers, bred her to Island Whirl, and watched her filly, Island Party, win for her owners at River Downs. Gave her a good life here afterwards, too.

A couple more stories like this...and I'll write the Jenkins rebuttal myself. I always had you pegged as a classy guy, Mike. :ThmbUp:

[bobphilo]

A couple more stories like this...and I'll write the Jenkins rebuttal myself. I always had you pegged as a classy guy, Mike. :ThmbUp:

I'll gladly give you another one. Debbie Lee, an Oklahoma breeder, always stipulates that anyone buying one of her horses sell it back to her when their racing career ends.