Ky Derby DQ Potential Fallout?

[Zman179]

Now I must say that I didn’t bet on the race and I do feel that Maximum Security definitely warranted disqualification, but I feel that there might there is going to be a major fallout out of all of this:

Horse racing might lose a lot of it’s square bettors.

There was $9 million bet on second-choice Maximum Security in the WPS pools and countless millions bet in exotics, a lot of that being square money. They aren’t going to understand how their horse wins the race, but yet they lose their money anyway, and so far I have seen many, many posts on social media of people saying that the races are "fixed", "rigged", "disgraceful", "a rip off"...and those are just the many feelings of people who posted on the Kentucky Derby Twitter and Facebook pages. As if horse racing didn’t already have a sullied reputation. It might be safe to say that a lot of square bettors who bet on the disqualified winner might never bet another horse race again because they felt that they got cheated. It is going to be a public relations nightmare.

Nonetheless, the Preakness is going to turn into quite an interesting event. Not only are Flavien Prat, Bill Mott and the connections of Country House going to be unmercilessly booed by the crowd and turned into villains, whereas the connections of Maximum Security will be loudly cheered and made into the hero, but it’s going to take place in front of a grandstand that is one-third condemned.

My two cents anyway.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157401063342472&id=94072137471&anchor_composer=false

[AMPHAR]

It probably helps the ratings of the Preakness IF Maximum Security goes.

The DQ and the opinion of 145 was stolen or that the DQ was justified probably fuels more stories in the next week vs a normal year. . Controversy sells.

Betting wise. I dunno. The NFL is a weekly nightmare of officiating, but people love sports betting.

Horse racing will probably get 5 more minutes on Monday morning sports talk radio. Heck, maybe one of analysts, trainer, jockey will get a phone interview.

I hope they appeal and start talking trash just to keep the drama going. Maybe steal some time from NFL and College Football discussion which won’t kick off in months.

[Tom]

The pretty people are home planning tonight's wardrobe to some event they have no idea about and the horseplayers are online at EB looking for today's scratches.

Life goes on.

[castaway01]

Now I must say that I didn’t bet on the race and I do feel that Maximum Security definitely warranted disqualification, but I feel that there might there is going to be a major fallout out of all of this:

Horse racing might lose a lot of it’s square bettors.

There was $9 million bet on second-choice Maximum Security in the WPS pools and countless millions bet in exotics, a lot of that being square money. They aren’t going to understand how their horse wins the race, but yet they lose their money anyway, and so far I have seen many, many posts on social media of people saying that the races are "fixed", "rigged", "disgraceful", "a rip off"...and those are just the many feelings of people who posted on the Kentucky Derby Twitter and Facebook pages. As if horse racing didn’t already have a sullied reputation. It might be safe to say that a lot of square bettors who bet on the disqualified winner might never bet another horse race again because they felt that they got cheated. It is going to be a public relations nightmare.

Nonetheless, the Preakness is going to turn into quite an interesting event. Not only are Flavien Prat, Bill Mott and the connections of Country House going to be unmercilessly booed by the crowd and turned into villains, whereas the connections of Maximum Security will be loudly cheered and made into the hero, but it’s going to take place in front of a grandstand that is one-third condemned.

My two cents anyway.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157401063342472&id=94072137471&anchor_composer=false

Yeah, just like people will never bet on or watch another NFL game after the Saints got screwed in the playoffs last year, or the NBA admits missing calls in numerous playoff games, or 100 other things...some of you guys seriously need to watch another sport because controversial stuff like this happens A LOT, people who lost money bitch and moan, and life goes on.

The idea that Bill Mott will be booed at the Preakness was also seriously out of touch. No one drinking beer in the infield at the Preakness will know who Bill Mott is, much less boo him because his horse was placed first on a DQ.

[Valuist]

The next question is, are all fouls the same? Theoretically, sure. In reality, not a chance.

In the NBA, is anyone surprised when there's mild contact at the end of a game but no foul call? How about the end of game Hail Marys in the NFL where one could argue interference against multiple players on both sides?

Is a DQ more likely to occur in a maiden claiming race on a Thursday afternoon than in a grade 1? No doubt about it. And in any race, are stewards more hesitant to take down a winner, than a horse from 3rd to 5th? No doubt about it. That's just the way it is, and we have accepted it.

Having said that, I still like the idea of DQs only affecting distribution of the purse. Nice and black and white with no guesswork for the public.

[Thomas Roulston]

If Country House wins the Preakness and the Belmont, he becomes the Roger Maris of racing, forever having an "asterisk" attached to his status as a Triple Crown winner - just like Forward Pass would have had he won the Preakness and the Belmont in 1968 (FP did win the Preakness, but finished second to Stage Door Johnny in the Belmont. SDJ went on to become a Solid-Professional chef-de-race for his exploits at stud).

[metro]

If there is one thing about horse players it is that they have short memories, self included. Seen way too many track goers walking out saying "I'll never be back to this place" a week later and there they are. Those that say they would boycott Churchill Downs from now on probably played the late double there last night.

[therussmeister]

If they decided not to DQ there would also be major fallout. This was a no-win situation.

[Tom]

You know who's going to the track today?
Everyone who turned $2 into $130 yesterday.

Suckers! We'll take it back by the 4th race!~:lol:

[Suff]

Maximum Security owner threatens legal action after ‘egregious’ Kentucky Derby DQ

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Maximum Security co-owner Gary West criticized race stewards’ disqualification of his horse’s Kentucky Derby victory as “egregious” and said he was pondering his next step, including a possible appeal.

“I think this is the most egregious disqualification in the history of horse racing, and not just because it’s our horse,” West told The Associated Press by phone Saturday night.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/05/maximum-security-threatens-legal-action-after-egregious-kentucky-derby-dq/

[airford1]

Maximum Security owner threatens legal action after ‘egregious’ Kentucky Derby DQ

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Maximum Security co-owner Gary West criticized race stewards’ disqualification of his horse’s Kentucky Derby victory as “egregious” and said he was pondering his next step, including a possible appeal.

“I think this is the most egregious disqualification in the history of horse racing, and not just because it’s our horse,” West told The Associated Press by phone Saturday night.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/05/maximum-security-threatens-legal-action-after-egregious-kentucky-derby-dq/

As a former hose owner this is a "NO CLASS", (California Chrome) in the moment response and I would hope they just apologize and move on. They did well with their 16k claimer.

[Key2mint]

In 2005--The year of Giacomo and Katrina--I was in the infield all day near the stretch turn. I had been there all day. It was a hot day. The nearest place for WATER was hard to find. The people I had gotten to know by then had a spot staked out with the blue FEMA tarp for several years previous, and had their own supply which they graciously shared with me. Beer stands were easily accessible.The surrounding, screaming mob--most of whom were NOT horseplayers--becomes insanely loud just before and during this race. They're bunched up against the tall fence** on that turn. The rider, Saez, explained to Donna Barton Brothers that his horse (" just a baby") had shied from the noise there. The rest is history. ** In memory of the beer can thrown at Bombay Duck.

[Suff]

As a former hose owner this is a "NO CLASS", (California Chrome) in the moment response and I would hope they just apologize and move on. They did well with their 16k claimer.

I have no investment in the career wishes of trainers, jockeys or owners.

There will be more races. Line them up, run them. I'll bet them. That's my offer.

[PaceAdvantage]

I have no investment in the career wishes of trainers, jockeys or owners.

There will be more races. Line them up, run them. I'll bet them. That's my offer.^^^ this! :ThmbUp:

[Grits]

And he's going on the Today show to talk about it tomorrow morning. How unfortunate for our sport.

PUUUHHHHLLLLLLZZZZZ :bang:

Maximum Security owner threatens legal action after ‘egregious’ Kentucky Derby DQ

LOUISVILLE, Ky. — Maximum Security co-owner Gary West criticized race stewards’ disqualification of his horse’s Kentucky Derby victory as “egregious” and said he was pondering his next step, including a possible appeal.

“I think this is the most egregious disqualification in the history of horse racing, and not just because it’s our horse,” West told The Associated Press by phone Saturday night.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/05/maximum-security-threatens-legal-action-after-egregious-kentucky-derby-dq/

[spiketoo]

This is the same West, correct???

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/233499/west-gracious-in-defeat-after-maximum-security-dq

West Gracious in Defeat After Maximum Security DQ
Owner expressed extreme pride in disqualified homebred runner.

For about 20 minutes, the greatest prize in Thoroughbred racing—winning the 145-year-old Kentucky Derby presented by Woodford Reserve (G1)—was realized by longtime owners Gary and Mary West. And then a disqualification of their first-place finisher Maximum Security for interference left them still seeking their first Derby win.

After all the drama had unfolded at Churchill Downs, Gary West reacted with a smile and a chuckle, most gracious in defeat.

"That's horse racing," West said while crossing back across the track from the Derby winner's circle. "Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes you win and you lose all in the same race."

West said he watched the race from the suites for owners. He was on the presentation stand at the Kentucky Derby winner's circle for most—if not all—of the review. West compared it to the famous introduction to ABC's "Wide World of Sports"—the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat "all within a 10-minute period of time."

West said he was "extremely proud" of Maximum Security. "He crossed the finish line first, but, like I said, I have not had a good opportunity to really look at what the stewards looked at on the thing," he said. "He must have done something much worse than what I was able to see because that was a 23-minute (objection)—and I knew after 15-20 minutes, things weren't looking good. They usually don't take that long if there's nothing involved. So we'll just have to look at it and see."

West said it was the longest review in which he'd ever been involved. While he hadn't seen the replay, he said he initially doubted an appeal would be filed of the stewards' decision that left his first-place finisher in 17th. A little later, West said they'd have to review the video before deciding, and then trainer Jason Servis said the connections are leaning toward an appeal.

With the disqualification, the Wests are winless in five Derby starts. Their best finish also came Saturday, as juvenile champion Game Winner was elevated to fifth position after the disqualification.

[BlueChip@DRF]

I have no investment in the career wishes of trainers, jockeys or owners.

There will be more races. Line them up, run them. I'll bet them. That's my offer.

I guess this can be said in the same breath for the recent events(deaths) at Santa Anita as well. I mean as long as they keep breeding, they will fill up the gates enough to continue racing.

No matter what happens, wonderful or tragic, horse racing will live on forever.

[GMB@BP]

If Baffert does not run any of his horses, with OB out...no maximum security...this could be funny cide level preakness field.

[bobphilo]

I guess this can be said in the same breath for the recent events(deaths) at Santa Anita as well. I mean as long as they keep breeding, they will fill up the gates enough to continue racing.

No matter what happens, wonderful or tragic, horse racing will live on forever.

The Santa Anita deaths have definitely hurt racing. I would think that the same people who are concerned about the horses' safety would be glad to see the Churchill stewards finally take a stand against dangerous riding.

[Grits]

The reality in all of this is, young people want instant results, instant wealth. They lack patience. They won't learn handicapping a horse race. Not to mention, the competition for our entertainment spending.

Too, both of these families, the West and the Shields, are extraordinarily wealthy. Both of these men are self made billionaires. Mr. Shields died this past October before being able to see his horse raised to 2019 Kentucky Derby Winner. Both men and their families have been breeding and racing horses since about 1980. Country House is a homebred. Maximum Security is a homebred.

For as long as I can remember I've been seeing these names in the owners line of pps.

I don't think lack of bettors going forward will be any more of a problem than lack of owners. That is, unless, people continue to settle for pieces, ie partnerships. Those may carry the sport forward....who knows. One thing's for sure, bad press ain't ever good.

[Zman179]

You know who's going to the track today?
Everyone who turned $2 into $130 yesterday.

Suckers! We'll take it back by the 4th race!~:lol:

Are you kidding? THIS GAME’S EASY!!!!!! :lol:
(famous last words)

[Zman179]

Yeah, just like people will never bet on or watch another NFL game after the Saints got screwed in the playoffs last year, or the NBA admits missing calls in numerous playoff games, or 100 other things...some of you guys seriously need to watch another sport because controversial stuff like this happens A LOT, people who lost money bitch and moan, and life goes on.

The idea that Bill Mott will be booed at the Preakness was also seriously out of touch. No one drinking beer in the infield at the Preakness will know who Bill Mott is, much less boo him because his horse was placed first on a DQ.

We’ll see who’s right or wrong in two weeks.

[Tom]

Time to put this behind us and move ahead.
I see Belmont has 30-35 horses lined up to run today.....:rolleyes:

[bobphilo]

The reality in all of this is, young people want instant results, instant wealth. They lack patience. They won't learn handicapping a horse race. Not to mention, the competition for our entertainment spending.

Too, both of these families, the West and the Shields, are extraordinarily wealthy. Both of these men are self made billionaires. Mr. Shields died this past October before being able to see his horse raised to 2019 Kentucky Derby Winner. Both men and their families have been breeding and racing horses since about 1980. Country House is a homebred. Maximum Security is a homebred.

For as long as I can remember I've been seeing these names in the owners line of pps.

I don't think lack of bettors going forward will be any more of a problem than lack of owners. That is, unless, people continue to settle for pieces, ie partnerships. Those may carry the sport forward....who knows. One thing's for sure, bad press ain't ever good.
,
Too many horses' deaths are truly bad for the sport since anyone with half a heart knows this is a bad thing. As you see from the poll here half the people agree with the disqualification and see the stewards' decision as the right thing and overdue at the Derby. This controversy is getting racing a lot of coverage in an underreported sport - not all of it bad.

[Zman179]

Time to put this behind us and move ahead.
I see Belmont has 30-35 horses lined up to run today.....:rolleyes:

Let’s put them all in one race and make it a free-for-all! We can make a new wager called the Pick One.

[stlseeeek]

Gary West

Is an idiot, his horse nearly took out his other horse and several others. Only by luck did they not clip heels.

F him, it was the 100% right call, finally Stewards got balls to make the correct call on big stage.

There is no debate on this, it was a 100% DQ. Unlike when jockey makes the offense, the horse was the one who caused it.

[Light]

I knew MS would be taken down. I bet him and I believe I own the world record for most DQ's.

That doesn't bother me in that it was the right call here as painful as that was. But in many instances the correct call is clearly not made and that is a huge turnoff for fans.

At one point I was getting dq'd so much I had to stop playing. If I get left up, I am shocked. Probably my Karma.

[Thomas Roulston]

According to Richard Migliore, they should get rid of the auxiliary gate and build a 20-stall gate to get rid of that big space between posts :14: and :15:.

And I agree with him 120%.

[papillon]

As a former hose owner this is a "NO CLASS", (California Chrome) in the moment response and I would hope they just apologize and move on. They did well with their 16k claimer.

Clearly the important factor to you is$16k claimer.

I have no dog in this fight. I walked away from the sport last Fall. I was at Endgame during the Derby, only to have my phone be texted too the verge of death.

This ain't playing well, and a dying sport doesn't get the same "time passe" mulliga.

people applauding this because horses may have gone down, where ya been for every 20 horse scrum to the 1st turn, esp. last year during a monsoon?


If it was Baffert/Smith no change.

Doesn't help it was Smarty Jones' trainer's brother that got dinged. And i don't even like Servis.

[Grits]

This is gonna be bad. Behind the crash of the Russian airliner, the Derby DQ was the lead story on NBC's national newscast. Also thrown in was the Santa Anita horse's deaths, and the declining the sport is suffering. All this along with the nugget that Mr.West will appear on tomorrow's Today show.

Donna Brothers tries hard, telling the reporter, it was the right decision, etc. etc. I don't think the guy got it, not at all. :rolleyes:

Thanks Mr.West, we'll look forward to your whining.

[Augenj]

The next question is, are all fouls the same? Theoretically, sure. In reality, not a chance.

In the NBA, is anyone surprised when there's mild contact at the end of a game but no foul call? How about the end of game Hail Marys in the NFL where one could argue interference against multiple players on both sides?

Is a DQ more likely to occur in a maiden claiming race on a Thursday afternoon than in a grade 1? No doubt about it. And in any race, are stewards more hesitant to take down a winner, than a horse from 3rd to 5th? No doubt about it. That's just the way it is, and we have accepted it.

Having said that, I still like the idea of DQs only affecting distribution of the purse. Nice and black and white with no guesswork for the public.
:ThmbUp:

[bugboy]

I was just asked a question from a NASCAR fan.why arent the jocks in communication with the trainer during a race? ie: stay in two path. #4 is right behind u..you r 2 lengths ahead .
nascar, can block, nuge, and bump

I know some will say this is the most stupid question ever asked on here.
but i told him i will ask the experts.
please dont laugh, thanks

[sammy the sage]

Thanks Mr.West, we'll look forward to your whining.

You know...you say that....but if had been a Baffert or Pletcher or even Mott....said horse STAYS up...period....seen it many times...

[airford1]

No the reference for me is that they raised a home bred and raced him 3 times before any of them thought the horse was top quality and to win the Kentucky Derby was a gift from the Gods. That being said if they ( Owners, Trainer, and Excersice Rider) had an once of Horsemanship someone would of thought little more of the horse before the 16k entry. They should of had Luis on the horse in a race prior to the Derby and things might have turned out better. The failure of the WHOLE TEAM to recognize some potential in this young horse is where they failed. At first I thought they needed to leave Max up, but in review of the amount of race track he used verified the DQ was right. Gary and Mary West need to apologize for acting the fool with a Law suit. JMO.

[AMPHAR]

I don’t know why but if they threaten an appeal it would like feel more like crybaby actions if they don’t show up to compete next time.

I feel the derby was stolen. I got no problem with them putting forth their opinion because there has been no shortage of apologists pulling out the letter of law talk to defend a winner that wasn’t even effected, but you better show up and compete next chance.

If that happens there will be more buzz for the Preakness since maybe since Easy Goer/Sunday Silence.

[rrpic6]

I knew MS would be taken down. I bet him and I believe I own the world record for most DQ's.

That doesn't bother me in that it was the right call here as painful as that was. But in many instances the correct call is clearly not made and that is a huge turnoff for fans.

At one point I was getting dq'd so much I had to stop playing. If I get left up, I am shocked. Probably my Karma.


My percentage is at least 77% being DQ'd when I bet the winner and/or not being DQ'd when I needed it to happen to cash (Bayern in the Breeder's Cup). This DQ only cost me a few hundred. When War of Will made his move, I briefly thought I was in for a big payday. The ensuing bumping brought me back to reality. I would get nothing and like it.


RR

[Thomas Roulston]

The letter of the law is not the issue in this case. To DQ or not to DQ a horse because its actions may have cost another horse a purse-paying placing - try saying that real fast, ten times in a row! - and whether a horse should be DQ'd if its actions did not affect the purse distribution - is.

Another factor is the omerta that exists among the jockeys, one of its tenets being that you don't try to screw a fellow jockey if you have no chance of benefiting yourself by doing so. We saw this in the 1983 Belmont, when Greg McCarron, rider of Au Point, who finished 10th, never claimed foul against the winner, Caveat, despite the fact that Laffit Pincay, rider of Caveat, bulled his way through a razor-thin opening on the rail at about the quarter pole. A stewards inquiry was conducted, with no change being made.