A Pretty fair assessment of the debate...

[sq764]

(Of course, I am not sure if Sec and LJB think CNN is a joke too, but who knows..)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/debate1.analysis/index.html

[Secretariat]

I saw on CNN that the people afterwords voted 53 to 37 that Kerry won the debate. A 16 point edge, and on MSNBC.com that poll was 70 to 30 in favor of Kerry.

I don't understand how CNN would call a 16 point edge in their own controlled poll a slight edge.

[sq764]

I thought you put no merit in polls..

[hcap]

Sec,

The disconnect is even more strange considering their online poll.

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/13581.exclude.html

George W. Bush-22% 153,077 votes
Sen. John Kerry- 71% 502,520 votes

Then again here's Times online poll

http://www.time.com/gdml.dyn

Kerry-81%
Bush-18%
Total Votes Cast: 35632

[cj]

I agree Kerry had a slightly better debate, but these polls are a joke. The Times and CNN both cater to liberals, so of course the vast majority of the people voting are also liberals. What's next, a CBS poll, ROFL!

[sq764]

Also from Time:

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,703913,00.html

[JustRalph]

you assume there is a correlation between winning the debate and who they vote for...........I don't think so.........

[sq764]

JR, it's called 'hope'.. That's all Sec has left at this point..

[John]

Gentelman,

"WE HAVE A RACE."

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by sq764
I thought you put no merit in polls..

Of course I don't beleive in polls. They're inaccurate. But when a news organization does not refernce THEIR OWN poll's figures and states Kerry won by a "slight edge" in THIER article, but THIER OWN poll shows a 16 point advantage, then I question THIER assessment on disregarding THEIR OWN figures.

[GameTheory]

Those quickie polls are considered informal and unscientific, that's why. They are not statistically valid, just fun with numbers.

[Tom]

Perhaps the margin of error is 20%.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
I saw on CNN that the people afterwords voted 53 to 37 that Kerry won the debate. A 16 point edge, and on MSNBC.com that poll was 70 to 30 in favor of Kerry.

I don't understand how CNN would call a 16 point edge in their own controlled poll a slight edge.

MSNBC 70-30 was a WEB BASED poll, COMPLETELY UNSCIENTIFIC!!! Come on man....

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by John
Gentelman,

"WE HAVE A RACE."

We've always had a race. Kerry folks needed a morale boost, as things were looking pretty bleak, even within their own inner circle. Kerry HAD to do well in the debate, or it would be COMPLETELY OVER for him.....

And if Bush is as bad as his opponents are trying to make him out to be, why is it even a race? Kerry should be a stone cold lock in November, but he is not....why?

[John]

WHY???, because the first debate is at the 1/4 pole. [ neck and neck.]

I for one am on the fence.....so I am listening very carefully. these are serious times. I don't give a damm about the partys. I am going to vote tha man. everything Bush and Kerry say,go in one ear an out the other.What ever stays between my ears will get my vote. I feel that is the best way for me to go.

Keep talking Guys, I am listening

JOHN

[Tom]

Originally posted by John

Keep talking Guys, I am listening

JOHN [/B]

Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush
Vote Bush



:D

[ljb]

Or you could look at the issues and decide to Vote Kerry.
Largest budget deficit in history.
Most jobs lost since Hoover.
High paying jobs being replaced with subsistence level jobs.
Lowering of environmental controls = more pollution.
Lowering of food inspection controls = Sh*t in the meat.
Less moneys for federal mandates = higher local taxes/fees
And there are many more.

[sq764]

You just showed why you think someone shouldn't vote for Bush, not why they should vote for Kerry..

[Tom]

Ljb at the phone bank.....

*Ring*
*Ring*
"Hello?"
"VOTE FOR KERRY OR I WILL KILL YOU DOG!"
"Who is this?"
"YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED."
*click*

:p

[John]

keep it up Tom, I might just give Kerry a sympathy vote.

[ljb]

sq764
Just take a 180 degree turn on the issues I mentioned and they will be a reason to vote for Kerry.
Tom you are way off base but, carry on.

[sq764]

So again, you would suggest a vote in the dark on an unproven stiff..

You are just getting boring anymore. At least a month ago you were fun to spar with, now you are just grasping at straws.. It's kinda sad to watch.

[ljb]

No no no,
Last time we had the vote in the dark for the unproven stiff and as a result of that and intevention by the republican courts we are in the mess we are in now.

[Latin Qtr]

WHY can we allow any killings? The Iraqis work so hard to support their families and then they get blown up. Who's
doing all these suicide bombs and kidnappings? I saw a guy ,in the Sunday papers , a father with his kids looking scared because he took a job that paid money and now he is a possible target. What's up?

[John]

WHY, because the world has gone carzy....

[sq764]

Why did people going to work on the train in Spain get blown up??

[ljb]

From sq764
Why did people going to work on the train in Spain get blown up??

It was in the news sq764. It was a terrorist attack.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Latin Qtr
WHY can we allow any killings? The Iraqis work so hard to support their families and then they get blown up. Who's
doing all these suicide bombs and kidnappings? I saw a guy ,in the Sunday papers , a father with his kids looking scared because he took a job that paid money and now he is a possible target. What's up?

The Iraqis are learning first hand what New Yorkers learned 3 years ago, when close to 3000 hard working Americans who were just trying to support their familes were essentially "blown up" by the same terrorists that are now blowing up children in Iraq.

Hopefully, they (the hard working Iraqi people) will band together and strive harder to defeat the terrorist criminals who are trying to undermine the democratic process trying to jumpstart itself.

[highnote]

Originally posted by Latin Qtr
WHY can we allow any killings? The Iraqis work so hard to support their families and then they get blown up. Who's
doing all these suicide bombs and kidnappings? I saw a guy ,in the Sunday papers , a father with his kids looking scared because he took a job that paid money and now he is a possible target. What's up?

I've often wondered about suicide bombings. How can someone think that it's OK to try to kill someone by killing himself/herself?

It comes down to the two driving forces behind all human behavior: The need to avoid pain and the need to get pleasure.

Think about it. There are no exceptions. Every human behavior -- or even animal behavior -- is motived by those two desires. We are constantly moving towards pleasure and away from pain.

You eat because it feels good or you know that if you don't eat you're going to feel the pain of hunger. Or you might exercise because you know you'll feel better. Even if exercising might be painful in the immediate moment, you know that later you will feel better. And you also know that if you don't exercise you won't feel as good as if you do. In either case, it's pain and pleasure that motivates our behavior. You brain is always asking -- is what I'm about to do going to mean pain or pleasure? What will it mean if I eat this donut? Even though it tastes good at this moment, is that a greater pleasure than the likelihood that it will make me fat and raise my cholesterol and increase my chances of heart attack and stroke? To eat or not to eat the doughnut?

So think about suicide bombers. What pleasure do they get that they are willing to suffer a possibly horrible and painful death?
To them, the pleasure that awaits them in heaven is greater than the pain they may experience by blowing themselves up.

They believe they will get eternal bliss. Beliefs... that's a whole other topic. All people are guided by their beliefs. Whatever you believe is true -- to you. It may not be ultimately true, but that doesn't matter to you. If you believe it, it seems true. So be careful what you believe. And it doesn't matter what you believe as long as it's useful.

Suicide bombers are also probably very angry and in a lot of mental pain. People kill themselves all the time because the pleasure of dying is greater than the pain of living. Or another way to look at it is, the pain of dying is NOT as great as the pain of living.

Hard for me to understand, but I know people who have killed themselves and it was because of depression. They saw no way to make their life better and they didn't want to wait to die naturally.

But to show you how f88ked-up suicide bombers are, they are willing to kill innocent people to get into heaven. A suicide bombing has to be one of the most selfish actions a human can take. What they are saying by their actions is, "I am willing to kill people and myself so that I will have pleasure." A suicide bomber thinks that killing innocent people by killing himself for the cause will get them into heaven.

Alternately, some of them probably kill out of fear. Fear of not getting into heaven. Fear is painful. So in order to stop the pain of fear, they adopt the belief that if I kill people for the cause I will get into heaven and have eternal pleasure. Again, it's an incredibly selfish behavior -- to kill people so they can get pleasure.

Those selfish hijackers who blew up the towers were even willing to kill other Muslims who were working in the tower that day. Maybe they didn't think that deeply about it. They were obviously psychotic.

It's seems unlikely to me that God would condone this behavior. God would probably forgive them because of their mental condition. Of course, I don't know what He's thinking, but that's my belief about what He's thinking.

So that's my amatuer psychological assessment of why suicide bombers are willing to kill innocent people and themselves.

Regards,
John

[John]

swetyejohn

"nicely said." makes sense. Roy Masters, would say that is " guilt and ego"

[Lefty]

lbj, you been at those Dem talking points again.
I suggest you listen carefully to the two. One is direct and says the same thing all the time. He will protect the american people and he will cut taxes and stimulate the economy.
The other says we have to pass a global test. Then he accuses Bush of spending too much money in Iraq and then later he's not spending enough. He promises to raise taxes.
Pick a side. The differences are clear!

[Tom]

I tried to join Kerry's side once. It kept moving and I could never find it.

That do it John?:D

[Suff]

When Bush refuses to have bi-lateral talks with North Korea...and instead insists that China handle the Nuclear proliferation issues on the Korean Penisula...?

Who's turning our national security over to another foriegn power?

When The US of A imposes sanctions on Iran and None of the International community mirrors our sanctions because we've alienated them. Thereby making our sanctions Moot..because Iran can get everything we're refusing them in the Global Market......

Who's Turning our Foriegn Policy into a National Security Threat?


The latest Information has Kerry in the lead after the Debate. 49% to 47%... A statictical Dead heat.

Even before the Uptick in Kerrys Fortunes visa ve the debate win... Bush was leading in Electoral College and Total States... But even at that juncture they predicted that Kerry would have gotten 1.2 Million more Popular Votes.

[ljb]

From Lefty
One is direct and says the same thing all the time. He will protect the american people and he will cut taxes and stimulate the economy.
Lefty,
One has tried that for almost four years now and look at the mess we are in. One must have the flexibility to say oops I made a mistake, not just forge on stubbornly in the Wrong direction.

[Tom]

Many do not agree that we are going in the wrong direction.
It is a war, and war is tought....you hav eto have the guts to stick it out. Some here obviously do not. Good thing Ljb and Sec were not around for WWII....where we wenti it alone, where we had a surprise attack that was not prevented, where the going was hard and where many gave their lives for the freedom of the world. They would have been good for troop morale.
Better get used to it , guys...even if KErry wins, we are there alone-thereis no cavalry. Theo only salvation for Iraq is the Iraqis themselves. And Kerry has already proven himself a quitter in war.
But then, who was it that called the Swift Boat Vets that are against Kerry the Shit Boat Vets? That says it all right there.
And don't you just know that that Europe is rooting for Kerry because they see a "pidgeon" that they can manipulate?
Jack "the Ripper" Shirrac is probably drooling at the thought of this loser in the WH.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Tom
Many do not agree that we are going in the wrong direction.
It is a war, and war is tought....you hav eto have the guts to stick it out. Some here obviously do not. Good thing Ljb and Sec were not around for WWII....where we wenti it alone, where we had a surprise attack that was not prevented, where the going was hard and where many gave their lives for the freedom of the world. They would have been good for troop morale.
Better get used to it , guys...even if KErry wins, we are there alone-thereis no cavalry. Theo only salvation for Iraq is the Iraqis themselves. And Kerry has already proven himself a quitter in war.
...

Yeah, I know war is tough Tom. I've seen it. And so has Senator John Kerry. Saying it's tough, and we're working hard..and we appreciate their sacrifice is the bush doctrine. It's easy to have the guts to stick it out when you're protected with a bunch of secret service who can fly you out of harm's way when it actually gets tough.

I have never said a thing against bush's decision to go into Afghanistan and pursue Al Queda. And neither has Senator Kerry. We have the "guts' as you say it to stick it out in our battle to get the culprits behind 911. And we have nothing but the utmost respect for any solider putting his life on the line in Iraq. It's just plain stubborness though to support policies that have failed time after time.

I was unaware that we had ceded zones of Iraq back to the insurgents. Where the <cheney> was the press on this? How could bush have allowed that to happen? Now those nests have to be re-taken! And those battles to take those nests will not be fought by members of the bush family, or by the Saudis, they'll be fought by lower and middle class Americans who received the lowest share of Mr. bush's whopping defict tax loan from future generation's children.

bush isn't tough. He's a tough talker, and a guy who simply borrows so much he can't live within his means.

As to morale, well, bush was a cheerleader in college, and I'll give him that. He is good at rah-rah.

[Lefty]

suff, Clinton and Carter had bi-lateral talks with N. Korea and guess what, they were lied to and that little Johnny is how N. Korea got the Nukes in the first place. Bush is playing it smart and not repeating Clinton's mistake.
lbj, not going in the wrong direction at all, you really should listen to news other than from the left. Economy is as good as it was in 96 and getting better. Fighting terrorists in other countries and not here. And while war is tragic, doing nothing can be more tragic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Secretariat
It's easy to have the guts to stick it out when you're protected with a bunch of secret service who can fly you out of harm's way when it actually gets tough.

Wow. I must have missed the part on Kerry's website where he states he is personally going to fight side by side with our soldiers during any conflict his administration may be a part of if he is elected President.

Please provide that link!

The guy is indeed a superhero!!! Where's his comic book?

[Lefty]

sec, there ya go again inferring the Pres. is a coward. Guess you got that from Peter Jennings who inferred the same thing right after 9-11. BTW, Bush has been to Iraq more times than Kerry.
Kerry proffesses to know everything about Iraq and what to do, but he's never visited the troops and talked to them.

[Larry Hamilton]

"... there were protesters on the train platform handing out pamphlets
on the evils of America. I politely declined to take one. An elderly
woman was behind me getting off the escalator and a young (20ish)
female
protester offered her a pamphlet, which she politely declined. The
young
protester put her hand on the old woman's shoulder as a gesture of
friendship and in a very soft voice said, "Ma'am, don't you care about
the children of Iraq?"



The old woman looked up at her and said, "Honey, my first husband died
in France during World War II so you could have the right to stand here
and bad mouth your country. And if you touch me again, I'll stick this
umbrella up your ass and open it."

[Equineer]

Combined Casualties in World War II
No one "goes it alone" in major conflicts, and this should be true in a worldwide war on terrorism. We are losing allies faster than gaining them.

Country Military Civilian Combined

Soviet Union 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece 520,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
USA 295,000 - 295,000
Holland 14,000 236,000 250,000
Belgium 10,000 75,000 85,000
Finland 79,000 - 79,000
Canada 39,000 - 39,000
India 36,000 - 36,000
Australia 29,000 - 29,000
Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000
South Africa 9,000 - 9,000
Norway 5,000 - 5,000
Denmark 4,000 - 4,000

Military Casualties In World War I

Belgium 45,550
British Empire 942,135
France 1,368,000
Greece 23,098
Italy 680,000
Japan 1,344
Montenegro 3,000
Portugal 8,145
Romania 300,000
Russia 1,700,000
Serbia 45,000
United States 116,516

Austria-Hungary 1,200,000
Bulgaria 87,495
Germany 1,935,000
Ottoman Empire 725,000

[sq764]

Well a good start to recouping allies is to insult them.. Well done Mr Kerry.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
Bush has been to Iraq more times than Kerry.


You are right Lefty. The "Mission Accomplished" visit, and the plastic turkey time.

[Lefty]

sec, cheapshot that is equal to some of lbj's. You know that mission accomplished sign was put up by the military on board that carrier and you should know that it meant the dictator Hussein was thrown out of power. Did not the Prez say there was a longroad ahead? Why do you dems all have to be so disengenous?
Plastic turkey I didn't see was prob for the tv cameras. Ever see food commercials? Real food doesn'tt look as appetizing as plastic food so all the luscious bugers and pizzas you see in food commercials are all plastic.
Meanwhile Kerry voted for the war and now he's against it. He will raise taxes on small business and lose jobs. He's a disaster for this country.

[ljb]

From Tom
Good thing Ljb and Sec were not around for WWII....where we wenti it alone,
Why did they call it a world war if what you say is true? We went it alone?