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View Full Version : 20 of the leading tracks announce plans to phase out race-day meds


Jeff P
04-18-2019, 07:57 PM
Bloodhorse.com | by Frank Angst | 04-18-2019 6:33 PM
Tracks Plan to Phase Out Lasix, Horsemen Share Concerns:
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/233156/tracks-plan-to-phase-out-lasix-horsemen-share-concerns

In what would be a significant change in how 2-year-old races and stakes races are conducted in the United States, 20 of the leading tracks announced plans April 18 to phase out the use of race-day medication beginning with juvenile races next year and then adding listed and graded stakes beginning in 2021.

The proposal to end the use of furosemide (Salix, commonly called Lasix) has support from some leading industry groups but also saw opposition and concerns raised by horsemen's groups and regulators.

Lasix is administered to prevent exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage, but its use is out of line with other major international racing jurisdictions. On Thursday, a coalition of leading Thoroughbred racing organizations announced plans to move closer to that standard.

Coalition racetracks that signed on to the initiative include all tracks owned or operated by Churchill Downs Inc., the New York Racing Association, and The Stronach Group, as well as Del Mar, Keeneland, Lone Star Park, Remington Park, Los Alamitos Racecourse (Thoroughbred meets), Oaklawn Park, and Tampa Bay Downs. Taken together, the tracks represent 86% of graded or listed stakes races in the U.S. in 2018.

Imo, if you're going to do away with race-day meds, a phase out, as opposed to a one time outright ban, makes sense.


-jp

.

Afleet
04-18-2019, 08:14 PM
I would think the lasix allowed venues will get increased field sizes which will lead to increased handle

Afleet
04-18-2019, 08:16 PM
Banning 2 y/o racing would help more than banning lasix. 2 y/o's are not developed

Suff
04-19-2019, 12:13 AM
In a previous wordspittin post, I raised ridiculous ideas you could come up with if it was a hail-mary to trigger a rebirth in Racing as a sport or it died.

Like if racing was either dead this year, or it lived and thrived another 100 years. no idea to much.

I suggested cloning, dna and gene splitting, artificial limbs, and other ideas.


Isn't the consensus that bleeding is a recessive gene?

Pretty sure, with all the advancements we know that its a genetic mutation.

And we can likely edit the gene out. Hail Mary, Jesus and Joseph.

bob60566
04-19-2019, 12:48 AM
I would think the lasix allowed venues will get increased field sizes which will lead to increased handle

Afleet

I think you might be correct With lasix being allowed, And maybe less race day testing would make it more favorable for some trainers to head to these tracks to continue there trade. ?

biggestal99
04-19-2019, 05:14 AM
I would think the lasix allowed venues will get increased field sizes which will lead to increased handle

No lasix horses get more starts.

Less recovery time.

Allan

classhandicapper
04-19-2019, 12:34 PM
It's sort of a shame that people outside the industry may be associating Lasix with horses breaking down at SA, but personally I think it's a welcomed change to have our stakes races being run clean.

jay68802
04-19-2019, 12:54 PM
It's sort of a shame that people outside the industry may be associating Lasix with horses breaking down at SA, but personally I think it's a welcomed change to have our stakes races being run clean.

Agree with you, however, 85% of the races run are not covered. Another way for racing to say "Look what we did" and really not change much.

deelo
04-20-2019, 12:15 AM
Surprised this thread isn't blowing up like facebook and twitter.

deelo
04-20-2019, 12:31 AM
In a previous wordspittin post, I raised ridiculous ideas you could come up with if it was a hail-mary to trigger a rebirth in Racing as a sport or it died.

Like if racing was either dead this year, or it lived and thrived another 100 years. no idea to much.

I suggested cloning, dna and gene splitting, artificial limbs, and other ideas.


Isn't the consensus that bleeding is a recessive gene?

Pretty sure, with all the advancements we know that its a genetic mutation.

And we can likely edit the gene out. Hail Mary, Jesus and Joseph.

The American Vet College of IM put out recommendations in 2014 i think it was that IEPH (or bleeding) is classified as a disease and that racehorses cannot just develop it due to strenuous exercise.

In my mind, this would stand to reason that a 2020 ban of 2 yr olds already born is rushed and short-sighted, especially since there's no correlation in Lasix with breakdowns.

If you really wanted to phase it out, their recommendations seem to point at starting with the breeding pool. Classify pedigree lines according to bleeding stage of offspring and begin to improve the pool.

Phase out Lasix over the course of a generation gradually. Give tracks the power to offer Lasix ON and OFF races during the transition until eventually ON races are no longer offered.

In the meantime, stop running distractions by blaming Lasix when we all know the track surface is directly related to breakdown rate.

Also, I have no training or breeding credits to my name so this is all just a casual bettor bouncing ideas around based off research so I'm okay taking criticism.

castaway01
04-20-2019, 09:12 AM
Agree with you, however, 85% of the races run are not covered. Another way for racing to say "Look what we did" and really not change much.

It could turn out that way, but it's also the only way a ban could take place. You have to start with horses that never ran on it (like 2-year-olds). It really does have to be phased in.

castaway01
04-20-2019, 09:14 AM
Banning 2 y/o racing would help more than banning lasix. 2 y/o's are not developed

I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.

bob60566
04-20-2019, 09:39 AM
I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.

So correct and when will they ever learn.

Jeff P
04-20-2019, 10:41 AM
I totally agree. People are in dream land or just lying to themselves to even suggest that modern breeding tactics and drugs make these horses more durable . I don’t care how old they are. Then to suggest horses run too much at age 2 ? Are you F’in kidding me???!!! They run maybe 3 times and some of these Derby horses didn’t start until they were 3. Total bs excuse. Let’s see how many defections there are in the next two weeks. Hopefully, the top 20 all make it.

The other thing I don’t think people realize is the top 20 tracks run 86% of the stakes races. In other words Lasix horses are running for 14% of the stakes races. And you can bet your bottom dollar tracks that don’t comply will come under pressure. There could even come threats of downgrade if all of this comes to pass. People seem not to realize that the numbers point to these drugs have not done a God Damn thing to help the breed. They probably have set it back. This has been a crutch and a trap from the start. Why did they crack down on human athletes? Cause it was good for them ? Or did it make people sick and is cheating. Give me a break .

Agree with you except for one thing. (You used the word probably.)"They probably have set it back."


Definitely, absolutely.

Imo, those two words more accurately describe the ongoing damage done to the sport as opposed to probably.


-jp

.

Afleet
04-20-2019, 11:22 AM
Afleet

I think you might be correct With lasix being allowed, And maybe less race day testing would make it more favorable for some trainers to head to these tracks to continue there trade. ?

I'm against the trainers that are cheating-didn't mean to come off like an apologist for cheaters

Afleet
04-20-2019, 11:26 AM
I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.

2 y/o develop at different rates. Some 2 y/o knees aren't fully closed so they chip-thats a fact

I'm against drugs, but blaming those deaths at SA on lasix is factually incorrect

Redboard
04-20-2019, 03:43 PM
I don't care if I ever bet on another 2-year-old race, but this is factually incorrect. Two-year-old racing is not a new development, and 100 years ago 2-year-olds ran more than now, not less. It's not the cause of any of these problems; breeding and overmedicating unsound horses is.

I just crunched the numbers for SA which I got here:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/pdfs/eid/SantaAnita.pdf

They reported 6038 2YrOld starts since 2009 , and four breakdowns. That's 0.66 per 1000 starts. Compare that with their overall rate which is well above 2.0.

One could calculate the 2YrOld rate for the other tracks, if you want to prove me wrong. You can do that here:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=Advocacy&area=11

Click on the tracks with the asterisks.

highnote
04-20-2019, 05:57 PM
Maybe the tracks have been listening to the complaints and suggestions from horseplayers -- and maybe U.S. track management sees how successful Hong Kong racing has become without the benefit of drugs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/churchill-downs-enacts-improvements-horse-rider-safety-224722887--rah.html

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Churchill Downs will invest $8 million for an on-site equine medical center as part of several other measures to improve safety for horses and riders.

The historic track will also install camera surveillance with other improvements to the backside area.

Earlier Thursday, Churchill Downs and several other tracks announced they would phase out use of the anti-bleeding medication Lasix for horses within 24 hours of racing. The track later announced other initiatives, including advocating for additional equine medication reforms; the formation of an Office of Racing Integrity that will to develop uniformed medication and safety standards; formalizing concussion protocol for jockey safety; and adopting international standards for riding crop use.

Nitro
04-20-2019, 07:25 PM
Maybe the tracks have been listening to the complaints and suggestions from horseplayers -- and maybe U.S. track management sees how successful Hong Kong racing has become without the benefit of drugs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/churchill-downs-enacts-improvements-horse-rider-safety-224722887--rah.html
I don’t believe there’s ever been a true proven long term “benefit of drugs” in racing. Of course, a short term benefit might be for those in the know when they’re betting on those horses with drug enhancements.

The various Stateside racing jurisdictions may have been paying some attention to current events and commentary, but I would think a far better incentive for eliminating drugs would be to look at the history of local racing from every perspective before drugs became so prevalent (and legalized).

Not only has the restriction on drugs in Hong Kong leveled the playing field, they rarely have difficulty providing full fields of 10 to 14 entries/race Something else to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about HK racing: They don’t race as a proving ground for eventual breeding purposes. They race for purposes of racing and providing veracity to a quality product to their patrons . Period!

Why? Take a peek at the typical handle for each race in HK.

the little guy
04-20-2019, 08:16 PM
Why? Take a peek at the typical handle for each race in HK.


They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.

cj
04-20-2019, 08:41 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

highnote
04-20-2019, 08:49 PM
They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.

I disagree. What's wrong with only racing 20 races per week in one city? That's around 700 or 800 per year. That's probably more than some jurisdictions race per year. (I'm thinking the fair circuit.) How many do Keeneland or Saratoga run?

HK has a good product and the track is extremely well-managed. Bill Nader, formerly of NYRA, does a great job managing HK racing. A lot could be learned from what is being done there.

I prefer 20 races per week with 12 horses.

Maybe some people like to bet tracks that run 50 races per week with 6 horse fields. I don't.

From a horseplayer's perspective it is easier to follow the racing in HK. It is much more difficult at a typical racetrack in the U.S. to keep up with the workload.

In the U.S. if you want to make your own speed ratings you have to deal with shippers. Ideally, that means you need to make figures for all the tracks that ship to your track. Or else you skip the race or cut back on your bet, or accept that you are betting with limited information.

In HK I have time to make my own speed, handicap, trainer, jockey, and sire ratings and still have 4 days per week for other things.

One elephant in the room advantage of betting HK is that I don't have to handicap which trainers' horses are likely to improve because their horses are getting drugs. It seems like U.S. racing executives are finally taking steps to reduce or eliminate drugs. Unfortunately, racing in the U.S. changes about as quickly as the Catholic Church. So maybe in my kids' lifetimes there will be drug-free racing in the U.S.

Most importantly, and fortunately, I am not a compulsive gambler and do not feel the need to bet 7 days per week. :)

Nitro
04-20-2019, 09:11 PM
They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.
Now there’s a narrow minded and obtuse comment for you. It’s coming from someone very entrenched with the grandeur of NYRA racing. Apparently from his perspective anything outside of NY racing is not fair game for evaluation purposes. It also seems odd that from time to time comparisons being made with HK racing become sensitive topics around here. It sort of makes you wonder what motivates that type of attitude.

But trolling? Apparently there’s also some confusion as to who initially referred to HK racing.

jocko699
04-20-2019, 09:14 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

This:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

highnote
04-20-2019, 09:19 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

That's a good opinion piece. It makes sense to me. Healthier horses will run more often and that will mean bigger fields.

Remember what Ronald Reagan said about drugs? -- "Just say no."

highnote
04-20-2019, 10:24 PM
They run about 20 races, maximum, a week in Hong Kong. Your constant attempts to compare their racing to ours is so idiotic that it's impossible to believe you aren't trolling. I give you credit, it's a decent troll, but it's threadbare at this point.

Move on.

Your statement about making attempts to compare HK to US is a little concerning. Most people who have taken any kind of writing course have probably done a comparison and contrast exercise. As a journalist, I assume you understand comparison and contrast. If not, that would be a surprise.

It's useful to compare and contrast jurisdictions. If one track is doing better than another a study of contrasts might explain why one is successful while the other is struggling.

HK has 20 races per week. NYRA has, what, about 50 on average?

HK averages about 12 horses per race.

AQU had an average of 7 betting interests today (Saturday, April 20) -- 64 betting interests and 65 horses, if I counted correctly. Race 1 had a coupled entry. Two races were turf races with 9 and 10 horses. The rest of the dirt races had betting interests that looked like this: 5,5,5,7,7,6,7. That's an average of 6 betting interests for Saturday dirt racing at AQU.

On Wednesday, April 17 AQU had just over 6 betting interests per race. Three races had coupled entries with 6, 7, and 7 horses. AQU gets slot subsidies. They can only get 6 betting interests on average per race? Who would want to bet on that product? Apparently, someone.

HK allows NO race day medication. NYRA allows race day medication. Probably not as liberal as KY, though.

HK monitors the stables closely. NYRA? It's amazing how lax security is at the SAR stables.

HK runs mainly geldings in handicap races with some Group 1 and stakes races. NYRA runs modestly-priced claiming races on the low end to world-class stakes races on the high end.

As far as the contrasts go then, perhaps these are the areas NYRA could focus on the achieve more horses per race and larger handle:

1. Reduce the number of race days -- perhaps even run seasonal racing.
2. Allow horses to run uncoupled.
3. Run more turf races by shifting racing between between BEL and AQU regularly rather than seasonally.
4. Ban race day drugs.
5. Create a handicap division.

dilanesp
04-20-2019, 10:35 PM
Hong Kong is wonderful, but there isn't a lot of legal gambling over there. I don't think what they do is duplicable here.

highnote
04-20-2019, 10:59 PM
Hong Kong is wonderful, but there isn't a lot of legal gambling over there. I don't think what they do is duplicable here.


HK racing has other forms of legalized gambling to compete against, just like NYRA. HK has horseracing, soccer, and lottery. NY has horseracing, casino, and lottery. NY competes with surrounding states. HK competes with Macau which is only 40 miles away. Macau casino's revenue is higher the Las Vegas strip casinos. That makes it formidable competition to HK racing.

NYRA racing was in decline before the AQU casino, not because of it.

There has always been underground sports betting with bookmakers not to mention the numbers racket.

There are other reasons for the decline in NYRA racing than competition. It just isn't a very desirable product outside of Saratoga and turf racing. 5 and 6 horse fields of horses racing on dirt is not as appealing as 14 horse fields running on the turf.

One reason the KY Derby is fun is because of the 20 horse field.

The Grand National has 40 runners. I believe there might be others in England with even more runners than 40. That needs a fact check.

If you give American bettors a steady diet of handicap races with 14 horse fields where every horse has a reasonable chance because of the weight handicap you will see a spike in handle.

Suff
04-21-2019, 01:01 AM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

I'm maxxed out on being nicer to horses. I think of jockeys carrying buzzers and industry low-lights and low-lifes who have control over a thoroughbreds care.

What am I supposed to do? Express my concern by donating to after care? Call my congressman?. Bet more? Pay $12 for a drf on-track?

I'm not even interested in this conversation because its far away from anything I do with betting horses.

highnote
04-21-2019, 02:22 AM
I'm maxxed out on being nicer to horses. I think of jockeys carrying buzzers and industry low-lights and low-lifes who have control over a thoroughbreds care.

What am I supposed to do? Express my concern by donating to after care? Call my congressman?. Bet more? Pay $12 for a drf on-track?

I'm not even interested in this conversation because its far away from anything I do with betting horses.

Excellent points. No argument from me.

bob60566
04-21-2019, 10:33 AM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

NYRA Voted the other day not to enforce the the new lasix rules for there is no scientific rules to support it.. Oh My.

Circle the wagon chaps.

the little guy
04-21-2019, 11:37 AM
Now there’s a narrow minded and obtuse comment for you. It’s coming from someone very entrenched with the grandeur of NYRA racing. Apparently from his perspective anything outside of NY racing is not fair game for evaluation purposes. It also seems odd that from time to time comparisons being made with HK racing become sensitive topics around here. It sort of makes you wonder what motivates that type of attitude.

But trolling? Apparently there’s also some confusion as to who initially referred to HK racing.

Has zero to do with what I posted.

You're a one track troll. Find a new topic to troll. Diversify. I have confidence in you.

castaway01
04-21-2019, 12:02 PM
2 y/o develop at different rates. Some 2 y/o knees aren't fully closed so they chip-thats a fact

I'm against drugs, but blaming those deaths at SA on lasix is factually incorrect

You were the only one doing any blaming. It's a shame you didn't understand your own post or maybe you could make a point that had some logic in it.

classhandicapper
04-21-2019, 12:04 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

That was so good. :ThmbUp:

Fager Fan
04-21-2019, 12:05 PM
Maybe the tracks have been listening to the complaints and suggestions from horseplayers -- and maybe U.S. track management sees how successful Hong Kong racing has become without the benefit of drugs.

https://sports.yahoo.com/churchill-downs-enacts-improvements-horse-rider-safety-224722887--rah.html

OMG. Hong Kong again.

Fager Fan
04-21-2019, 12:09 PM
Now there’s a narrow minded and obtuse comment for you. It’s coming from someone very entrenched with the grandeur of NYRA racing. Apparently from his perspective anything outside of NY racing is not fair game for evaluation purposes. It also seems odd that from time to time comparisons being made with HK racing become sensitive topics around here. It sort of makes you wonder what motivates that type of attitude.

But trolling? Apparently there’s also some confusion as to who initially referred to HK racing.

TLG is right on this one. Our racing and their racing is SO much different that it's beyond ridiculous to keep comparing the two.

Keep in mind, too, that we'd stomp the ever-loving crap out of any Hong Kong horse that would attempt to race against us.

bob60566
04-21-2019, 12:15 PM
TLG is right on this one. Our racing and their racing is SO much different that it's beyond ridiculous to keep comparing the two.

Keep in mind, too, that we'd stomp the ever-loving crap out of any Hong Kong horse that would attempt to race against us.

Yes you are correct our racing is so much different.

Is there anything you can suggest from the Hong Kong model which would reduce the current concerns in North American horse racing at this present time. ?

Fager Fan
04-21-2019, 12:41 PM
Yes you are correct our racing is so much different.

Is there anything you can suggest from the Hong Kong model which would reduce the current concerns in North American horse racing at this present time. ?

I have some solutions but none taken from Hong Kong.

highnote
04-21-2019, 03:34 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

NYRA Voted the other day not to enforce the the new lasix rules for there is no scientific rules to support it.. Oh My.

Circle the wagon chaps.

if nyra banned lasix they would only have 4 horse fields instead of 6.

highnote
04-21-2019, 03:35 PM
OMG. Hong Kong again.

AQU 6 horse fields. HK 12 horse fields.

highnote
04-21-2019, 03:42 PM
TLG is right on this one. Our racing and their racing is SO much different that it's beyond ridiculous to keep comparing the two.

Keep in mind, too, that we'd stomp the ever-loving crap out of any Hong Kong horse that would attempt to race against us.

Nothing wrong with making comparisons. You impriveva system by studying what works and what doesn't and then understanding why.

Who cares if the best US horse is faster than the best HK horse? It is irrelevant.

I want to bet on races with a high number of entrants.

highnote
04-21-2019, 03:43 PM
I have some solutions but none taken from Hong Kong.

Well let's hear them!

Redboard
04-21-2019, 05:02 PM
https://ayankeeinparis.com/2019/04/20/lasix-treating-the-symptom-and-not-the-disease/

NYRA Voted the other day not to enforce the the new lasix rules for there is no scientific rules to support it.. Oh My.

Circle the wagon chaps.

I wouldn't be surprised seeing how quickly everything has been going down lately. But I have not seen this anywhere. Where did you get this info?

Redboard
04-21-2019, 05:12 PM
Frank is getting into the act:

https://twitter.com/raypaulick/status/1120017985534513152

bob60566
04-21-2019, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised seeing how quickly everything has been going down lately. But I have not seen this anywhere. Where did you get this info?

Thanks for the correction it is not NYRA That made that statement it was the director of Monmouth Park

NYRA is in support that is good news

cj
04-21-2019, 06:07 PM
Thanks for the correction it is not NYRA That made that statement it was the director of Monmouth Park

NYRA is in support that is good news

Navarro said that? :lol: :lol::lol:

Fager Fan
04-21-2019, 07:28 PM
Nothing wrong with making comparisons. You impriveva system by studying what works and what doesn't and then understanding why.

Who cares if the best US horse is faster than the best HK horse? It is irrelevant.

I want to bet on races with a high number of entrants.

Then go for it.

But it's absurd to compare a jurisdiction which has about 290,000 starts a year against one that has about 10,000.

castaway01
04-21-2019, 07:39 PM
Then go for it.

But it's absurd to compare a jurisdiction which has about 290,000 starts a year against one that has about 10,000.

Or one where the government runs all forms of gambling vs. one where they operate independently. It's apples to bowling balls, over and over.

Parkview_Pirate
04-21-2019, 08:43 PM
Lasix has been at the forefront of debate for a long time on the U.S. racing scene, even prior to NY buckling under and allowing it.

So why the change in attitude now by the industry? An indirect response to the recent spate of breakdowns at SA?

/speculation_on
IMHO, it might be a desperate attempt to prolong the legality of the game. The trend seem to be to outlaw the sport. It may also be a sign of the continuing difficulties in making any money in racing for the owners, tracks and and trainers. Drugs, legal or illegal, can be expensive.
/speculation_off

deelo
04-21-2019, 09:43 PM
Lasix has been at the forefront of debate for a long time on the U.S. racing scene, even prior to NY buckling under and allowing it.

So why the change in attitude now by the industry? An indirect response to the recent spate of breakdowns at SA?

/speculation_on
IMHO, it might be a desperate attempt to prolong the legality of the game. The trend seem to be to outlaw the sport. It may also be a sign of the continuing difficulties in making any money in racing for the owners, tracks and and trainers. Drugs, legal or illegal, can be expensive.
/speculation_off

my speculation is that it's just a "hey look how proactive we are" to steer away from spending the money to re-surface tracks.

Fager Fan
04-22-2019, 01:11 AM
my speculation is that it's just a "hey look how proactive we are" to steer away from spending the money to re-surface tracks.

It's not the surface, so there's no reason they should spend $5m to resurface the track.

But otherwise you're right. They're doing this because they have to for PR purposes. The governor is involved, the DA is investigating, PETA was making noise that was getting heard, and in case no one noticed, they recently held a referendum about dog racing in Florida and got the sport banned. Yes, it could happen to racing too.

Nitro
04-22-2019, 12:32 PM
Nothing wrong with making comparisons. You impriveva system by studying what works and what doesn't and then understanding why.
Who cares if the best US horse is faster than the best HK horse? It is irrelevant.
I want to bet on races with a high number of entrants.
This minority of skeptics that keeps clamoring about the huge differences between HK racing and N.A. racing doesn’t really have a clue as to how those differences affect the betting population. How could they know? They have no idea just how good the overall racing product in HK is. You can’t argue or rationalize any topic with ignorance.

As far as one group of horses being faster than another goes: I for one would think it wouldn’t be very fair to make that sort of comparison. That’s only because one group (from HK) is drug free and involved primarily in handicap type races carrying varied amounts of weight and the other group isn’t.
Not that it’s of any quantifiable significance, but if my recollection is correct a well-regarded CA sprinter named Stormy Liberal (who won 2 BC Turf Sprints) made an attempt at running in HK without much success.

Horse Form Records - STORMY LIBERAL
Race Index : 258
Date: 10/12/2017
RC/Track/Course : ST / Turf / "A"
Distance: 1200M (6F)
Race Class: G1
Trainer: P Miller
Jockey: S de Sousa
Win Odds: 84/1
Act. Wgt.: 126
Declar. Horse Wgt.: 1087
Running Positions: 11 13 11
Finish Time: 1.10.17

deelo
04-22-2019, 11:40 PM
It's not the surface, so there's no reason they should spend $5m to resurface the track.

But otherwise you're right. They're doing this because they have to for PR purposes. The governor is involved, the DA is investigating, PETA was making noise that was getting heard, and in case no one noticed, they recently held a referendum about dog racing in Florida and got the sport banned. Yes, it could happen to racing too.

respectfully, i'm not sure what you blame it on...but it was definitely the surface, no doubt.

highnote
04-22-2019, 11:49 PM
Then go for it.

But it's absurd to compare a jurisdiction which has about 290,000 starts a year against one that has about 10,000.

I do go for it.

NYRA has 290,000 starts per year? :lol::lol::lol: NYRA and SoCal don't have that many combined.

I'm still waiting to hear your solutions to improve racing in the U.S. that does not involve HK. What are you waiting for? Let's hear them!

Fager Fan
04-23-2019, 12:11 AM
I do go for it.

NYRA has 290,000 starts per year? :lol::lol::lol: NYRA and SoCal don't have that many combined.

I'm still waiting to hear your solutions to improve racing in the U.S. that does not involve HK. What are you waiting for? Let's hear them!

No, the whole US.

I could type for days about improving racing here. I don't really have the desire or time. Us being like Hong Kong, however, didn't come close to making the list.

highnote
04-23-2019, 12:39 AM
I could type for days about improving racing here. I don't really have the desire or time.

I thought so.

Funny that you have plenty of desire and time to type for days about your criticisms of those who offer solutions. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

iamt
04-23-2019, 12:58 AM
You do that your "solution" basically amounts to the idea that fuller fields will be good for racing, something that the industry has recognized for decades.



Nothing you have mentioned has addressed how to get more owners or increase their returns to make it more viable. Your whole handicap division does nothing but reduce returns to owners at a time when they are leaving the industry as a whole.


Hong Kong is a great market, and many of their practices are the best in the world but it is a unique market and looking at why t hey are successful you have to remember correlation is not causation.




The number one reason why Hong Kong can run drug free? Because they have no breeding industry. All horses are thoroughly vetted either at sales or while in full training before they can get in the country. Horses that aren't conformed pretty well perfectly aren't allowed in, issues from the scope will see horses rejected too.


It is much easier to race drug free when you have excluded the large number of horses that would be more likely to need drugs more. That isn't a possibility here so we can't operate under the same framework, although working towards fewer drugs in racing and training is an important step.

highnote
04-23-2019, 01:47 AM
Nothing you have mentioned has addressed how to get more owners or increase their returns to make it more viable. Your whole handicap division does nothing but reduce returns to owners at a time when they are leaving the industry as a whole.


Your points from your entire post are all good ones, but the one that stands out is the one I've quoted.

Let's take NYRA as an example. The purses are fairly high with the help of slot subsidies. The field sizes are relatively small compared to, say, Hong Kong.

This is great for AQU owners, trainers, and jockeys who all get a percentage of the purse. Fewer horses racing for bigger purses means it is easier to earn purse money because the purse is shared with fewer people.

For example, April 20, AQU, Race 1, Waiver Claiming:

There were 5 horses in the race. Here is how the purse was split:

$52,000 purse
1st 28,600
2nd 10,400
3rd 6,240
4th 3,120
5th 2,080

The owner gets $2,000 just for running last and the trainer and jocks get their cut of that. If this was a 14 horse field the owner of the runner that finished last would get nothing, but the trainer would still get her day rate and the jock would get her fee.

There was a claiming race with a purse of $38,000 on the same AQU card and the 7th place finisher got $570. That's not bad and a lot better than nothing.

If I was an owner in NY I would want fewer horses entered because that makes it easier to win purse money. In fact, our trainer at MNR would sometimes get asked to run a horse in a race to fill a field. She did it because she knew that even if she finished last she would pick up a $500 check.

The lowest class handicap race in HK has a purse of about $88,000. The first race at HK on Apr 24 has a purse of about 88,000 and they pay 3.5% to the 5th place finisher. There are 12 horses entered. That means the owners that finish 6 through 12 get nothing, but they still have to pay the entry fee, and the trainer's and jock's rates. There is a lot more risk for the owners.

So from an ownership standpoint NY is probably less competitive than HK.

From a horseplayers standpoint, HK, with its steady diet of competitive handicap races with full fields, still offers a more desirable betting product and an overall better entertainment product, in my opinion.

Now I know some people here like betting on fields of 5 or 6 horses. I don't. To each his own.

Basically, it is socialism for horse owners who race at NYRA tracks. It's a good deal for them, but it's not totally a competitive, capitalist, free-market.

This is why I question why there is still a high take out in NY. Why do owners get to enjoy a socialist system, but horseplayers have to deal with a competitive, capitalist marketplace? The truth is horseplayers don't have to. They can bet in capitalist markets that are more horseplayer friendly. HK comes to mind.

castaway01
04-23-2019, 08:26 AM
Your points from your entire post are all good ones, but the one that stands out is the one I've quoted.

Let's take NYRA as an example. The purses are fairly high with the help of slot subsidies. The field sizes are relatively small compared to, say, Hong Kong.

This is great for AQU owners, trainers, and jockeys who all get a percentage of the purse. Fewer horses racing for bigger purses means it is easier to earn purse money because the purse is shared with fewer people.

For example, April 20, AQU, Race 1, Waiver Claiming:

There were 5 horses in the race. Here is how the purse was split:

$52,000 purse
1st 28,600
2nd 10,400
3rd 6,240
4th 3,120
5th 2,080

The owner gets $2,000 just for running last and the trainer and jocks get their cut of that. If this was a 14 horse field the owner of the runner that finished last would get nothing, but the trainer would still get her day rate and the jock would get her fee.

There was a claiming race with a purse of $38,000 on the same AQU card and the 7th place finisher got $570. That's not bad and a lot better than nothing.

If I was an owner in NY I would want fewer horses entered because that makes it easier to win purse money. In fact, our trainer at MNR would sometimes get asked to run a horse in a race to fill a field. She did it because she knew that even if she finished last she would pick up a $500 check.

The lowest class handicap race in HK has a purse of about $88,000. The first race at HK on Apr 24 has a purse of about 88,000 and they pay 3.5% to the 5th place finisher. There are 12 horses entered. That means the owners that finish 6 through 12 get nothing, but they still have to pay the entry fee, and the trainer's and jock's rates. There is a lot more risk for the owners.

So from an ownership standpoint NY is probably less competitive than HK.

From a horseplayers standpoint, HK, with its steady diet of competitive handicap races with full fields, still offers a more desirable betting product and an overall better entertainment product, in my opinion.

Now I know some people here like betting on fields of 5 or 6 horses. I don't. To each his own.

Basically, it is socialism for horse owners who race at NYRA tracks. It's a good deal for them, but it's not totally a competitive, capitalist, free-market.

This is why I question why there is still a high take out in NY. Why do owners get to enjoy a socialist system, but horseplayers have to deal with a competitive, capitalist marketplace? The truth is horseplayers don't have to. They can bet in capitalist markets that are more horseplayer friendly. HK comes to mind.

Yes, I would definitely call the Hong Kong system where the government runs everything and lets no outsiders in "capitalist"....lol. Great knowledge of the capitalism and socialism there...

You're not offering solutions, you're offering awful analogies that don't apply, and you refuse to ever address how two systems that aren't anything alike are supposed to match. You're too afraid to actually deal in reality. Repeatedly typing "14-horse fields are great"---absolutely no one has disagreed with you, but you never explain what that has to do with real life. Hong Kong is a government-controlled monopoly. America is not. You can't make one system fit the other.

highnote
04-23-2019, 02:29 PM
Yes, I would definitely call the Hong Kong system where the government runs everything and lets no outsiders in "capitalist"....lol. Great knowledge of the capitalism and socialism there...

You're not offering solutions, you're offering awful analogies that don't apply, and you refuse to ever address how two systems that aren't anything alike are supposed to match. You're too afraid to actually deal in reality. Repeatedly typing "14-horse fields are great"---absolutely no one has disagreed with you, but you never explain what that has to do with real life. Hong Kong is a government-controlled monopoly. America is not. You can't make one system fit the other.

I gave plenty of ideas you just don't like them. That's ok. I have already moved on. The U.S. racing industry will survive without me. NYRA is doing just fine. Big purses. Small fields. Owners must be happy to be able to pick up a check every race. That's great for them. It's not great for bettors, but as we heard from Stronach, horseplayers are not stakeholders in his world. He's the owner of the track so he can do whatever he wants. NYRA runs their tracks they way they want. And that is how it should be.

12/ALL/ALL
04-24-2019, 04:39 AM
While gradually reducing the role of drugs in North American is probably a good thing, the greatest damage to thoroughbreds has been done by the nature of American racing itself. Dirt racing over rewards speed and under rewards stamina. Not surprisingly, breeders have taken notice and more and more speed has been bred into horses without regard to soundness over the decades. A horse should not have legs this thin. Races are also too short and require too much stressful rapid acceleration from a standing start. From my point of view, all racing should be conducted on grass at distances greater than a mile even for 2 year olds. This would of course require the seasonal closing of northern tracks plus the permanent closing of bullring tracks and is never going to happen on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. There would be fewer tracks left but the quality of racing would be incredible with full fields of sounder horses. I'm allowed to dream.

highnote
04-24-2019, 05:49 AM
While gradually reducing the role of drugs in North American is probably a good thing, the greatest damage to thoroughbreds has been done by the nature of American racing itself. Dirt racing over rewards speed and under rewards stamina. Not surprisingly, breeders have taken notice and more and more speed has been bred into horses without regard to soundness over the decades. A horse should not have legs this thin. Races are also too short and require too much stressful rapid acceleration from a standing start. From my point of view, all racing should be conducted on grass at distances greater than a mile even for 2 year olds. This would of course require the seasonal closing of northern tracks plus the permanent closing of bullring tracks and is never going to happen on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. There would be fewer tracks left but the quality of racing would be incredible with full fields of sounder horses. I'm allowed to dream.

Excellent points.

At NYRA they could greatly increase the number of turf races by alternating BEL and AQU every two days. Two days at BEL. One day off. Two days at AQU. One day off. That would be 24 days of racing per month.

Close AQU and BEL from Dec 15 (weather permitting) to March 1 (weather permitting). Or deepen the Aqueduct Inner track and make it like a turf course. It doesn't matter how fast the final time is. All that matters is that there is a winner and people can bet the race. No one cares if a mile is run in 1:36 or 1:43.

Get rid of sprint races on the dirt and only have dirt races at one mile or more.

American thoroughbred racing is trending toward quarterhorse racing.

the little guy
04-24-2019, 09:35 AM
At NYRA they could greatly increase the number of turf races by alternating BEL and AQU every two days. Two days at BEL. One day off. Two days at AQU. One day off. That would be 24 days of racing per month.



If this is an example of one of your ideas to save racing, many of us can breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't missing anything ( other than a good laugh ) from the endless tomes you post here. To dismiss the costs involved with doing something with nary a thought is as ludicrous as your constant comparisons between US racing and Hong Kong racing. Keeping two plants open simultaneously, at double the expense of much of the equipment, would be a laughably poor business decision. It's stunning that this isn't obvious to you.

dilanesp
04-24-2019, 11:13 AM
If this is an example of one of your ideas to save racing, many of us can breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't missing anything ( other than a good laugh ) from the endless tomes you post here. To dismiss the costs involved with doing something with nary a thought is as ludicrous as your constant comparisons between US racing and Hong Kong racing. Keeping two plants open simultaneously, at double the expense of much of the equipment, would be a laughably poor business decision. It's stunning that this isn't obvious to you.

Yep. They do this in Hong Kong, but they have 70,000 live attendance and $15m handle per race, which makes a lot of things possible. But even then, it's something of an extravagance and is probably done to keep the old Happy Valley plant open.

You can't do it here and wouldn't want to.

And also, NYRA does a really good job on this issue anyway. All of its plants have three turf courses, which protects the grass.

Jeff P
04-24-2019, 11:30 AM
If this is an example of one of your ideas to save racing, many of us can breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't missing anything ( other than a good laugh ) from the endless tomes you post here. To dismiss the costs involved with doing something with nary a thought is as ludicrous as your constant comparisons between US racing and Hong Kong racing. Keeping two plants open simultaneously, at double the expense of much of the equipment, would be a laughably poor business decision. It's stunning that this isn't obvious to you.

I'm not suggesting that NYRA close one or the other --

But aren't Aqueduct and Belmont just a few miles away from each other? :):)

Tom
04-24-2019, 11:42 AM
Hey, that is an idea....they could buy the old grandstand on wheels that Gulfstream used to have during the renovations, and just have everyone show up at Belmont every day and then drive the seats over to Aqueduct for the actual racing!

Wow!
I can see it now........:cool:

the little guy
04-24-2019, 11:44 AM
I'm not suggesting that NYRA close one or the other --

But aren't Aqueduct and Belmont just a few miles away from each other? :):)

What's your point Jeff?

Jeff P
04-24-2019, 11:45 AM
Is that like the moving grandstand idea they're thinking about for a track in New Mexico? :D


-jp

.

highnote
04-24-2019, 02:29 PM
If this is an example of one of your ideas to save racing, many of us can breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't missing anything ( other than a good laugh ) from the endless tomes you post here. To dismiss the costs involved with doing something with nary a thought is as ludicrous as your constant comparisons between US racing and Hong Kong racing. Keeping two plants open simultaneously, at double the expense of much of the equipment, would be a laughably poor business decision. It's stunning that this isn't obvious to you.

Well, let's hear your great ideas, hot shot.

If you don't like my endless tomes then block me.

You are like the rest of the oldsters on paceadvantage, you criticize, but offer no solutions. Like the George Harrison song goes, "It's easier to see the books upon the shelf that it is to see yourself."

Shifting racing is done all the time in England. They run a couple of days and then move on to the next track. Hong Kong alternates between two tracks. So stop making excuses and help find solutions.

There would be no reason to open up the entire Belmont plant all the time. The grandstand is practically empty most race days.

AQU is a busy place every day with the casino. I could be mistaken, but I thought it was the case that horses were stabled at both tracks year round and the tracks were open year round for training. If they aren't, they could be.

It can be done. It's just a matter of strategy and tactics.

To paraphrase Mayor Bloomberg -- NYRA is the only bookie I've ever seen that loses money.

the little guy
04-24-2019, 03:07 PM
Well, let's hear your great ideas, hot shot.

If you don't like my endless tomes then block me.

You are like the rest of the oldsters on paceadvantage, you criticize, but offer no solutions. Like the George Harrison song goes, "It's easier to see the books upon the shelf that it is to see yourself."

Shifting racing is done all the time in England. They run a couple of days and then move on to the next track. Hong Kong alternates between two tracks. So stop making excuses and help find solutions.

There would be no reason to open up the entire Belmont plant all the time. The grandstand is practically empty most race days.

AQU is a busy place every day with the casino. I could be mistaken, but I thought it was the case that horses were stabled at both tracks year round and the tracks were open year round for training. If they aren't, they could be.

It can be done. It's just a matter of strategy and tactics.

To paraphrase Mayor Bloomberg -- NYRA is the only bookie I've ever seen that loses money.

This is really stupid stuff....and that's being nice.

I am very comfortable with my contributions to the game. I work tirelessly to improve the quality of information that has been, and continues to be, imparted to the public. Some appreciate it and some don't. I'm OK with that. I also don't run around saying I have answers, or even that there are questions, so trying to drag me into your foolishness is completely nonsensical.

The comment, and I'm not sure whether Bloomberg said it or not ( and I certainly don't trust you because you get nothing right ), was about NYC OTB, and not about NYRA in any way. In fact, NYC OTB stiffed NYRA for over $22 million when they went bankrupt, something pretty much everyone conveniently ignored.

I will take your advice and never look at another word you post. It's excellent advice. Likely your first.

highnote
04-24-2019, 03:48 PM
This is really stupid stuff....and that's being nice.

I am very comfortable with my contributions to the game. I work tirelessly to improve the quality of information that has been, and continues to be, imparted to the public. Some appreciate it and some don't. I'm OK with that. I also don't run around saying I have answers, or even that there are questions, so trying to drag me into your foolishness is completely nonsensical.

The comment, and I'm not sure whether Bloomberg said it or not ( and I certainly don't trust you because you get nothing right ), was about NYC OTB, and not about NYRA in any way. In fact, NYC OTB stiffed NYRA for over $22 million when they went bankrupt, something pretty much everyone conveniently ignored.

I will take your advice and never look at another word you post. It's excellent advice. Likely your first.

Good. Block me. You offer no solutions.

Bloomberg said it about OTB. That's why I said I am paraphrasing Bloomberg.

I agree you contribute with your commentary on the broadcasts. I like what I hear.

You call my stuff stupid, but offer nothing better. Why? Because you don't have anything better. You're happy to collect a paycheck long enough to reach social security age. Nothing wrong with that. Most people do the same.

But it would be nice if you offered ideas to improve the game instead of calling the ideas stupid of those of us who try. Then again, maybe the ideas are stupid and the criticism is warranted. One thing is for certain -- the ideas that are actually being implemented now in the racing industry must be stupid otherwise racing would NOT be spiraling down the toilet.

And those of you who blame racing's decline on it becoming less popular. That's a cop out argument. Ask instead what can be done to make racing more popular.

How about ZERO takeout. That's what robinhood.com has for their commission fees. ZERO commission stock trading.

Racing doesn't like having customers so they may as well have ZERO takeout. That way they don't have to worrying about taking their customers' money and giving them something in return. But that will never happen. Why? Because racing wants to take money from bettors, but they also want to believe they are operating like they still have a monopoly on gambling and can take without giving great customer service in return.

Those days of monopoly are gone. Maybe in 30 years when the state takes over NY racing completely and turns the tracks into condos racing executives will wake up. Of course by then you and the executives will all be dead or retired having outlived the ability to contribute.

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but it's the reality racing in NY is headed for. Or maybe the AQU casino will provide enough milk to sustain life for another 30 years? I hope so for your sake and the sake of everyone else sucking on the hind tit.

castaway01
04-24-2019, 04:10 PM
Good. Block me. You offer no solutions.

Bloomberg said it about OTB. That's why I said I am paraphrasing Bloomberg.

I agree you contribute with your commentary on the broadcasts. I like what I hear.

You call my stuff stupid, but offer nothing better. Why? Because you don't have anything better. You're happy to collect a paycheck long enough to reach social security age. Nothing wrong with that. Most people do the same.

But it would be nice if you offered ideas to improve the game instead of calling the ideas stupid of those of us who try. Then again, maybe the ideas are stupid and the criticism is warranted. One thing is for certain -- the ideas that are actually being implemented now in the racing industry must be stupid otherwise racing would NOT be spiraling down the toilet.

And those of you who blame racing's decline on it becoming less popular. That's a cop out argument. Ask instead what can be done to make racing more popular.

How about ZERO takeout. That's what robinhood.com has for their commission fees. ZERO commission stock trading.

Racing doesn't like having customers so they may as well have ZERO takeout. That way they don't have to worrying about taking their customers' money and giving them something in return. But that will never happen. Why? Because racing wants to take money from bettors, but they also want to believe they are operating like they still have a monopoly on gambling and can take without giving great customer service in return.

Those days of monopoly are gone. Maybe in 30 years when the state takes over NY racing completely and turns the tracks into condos racing executives will wake up. Of course by then you and the executives will all be dead or retired having outlived the ability to contribute.

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but it's the reality racing in NY is headed for. Or maybe the AQU casino will provide enough milk to sustain life for another 30 years? I hope so for your sake and the sake of everyone else sucking on the hind tit.

Your solution is zero takeout? Yeah, just like casinos and the lottery have. Even your beloved Hong Kong has higher takeout than most North American tracks, and they ARE a monopoly so they could cut it to 1% if they wanted to because they don't allow competition. Funny how they don't do that.

Then on top of that, telling someone who has worked his ass off for racing that he's basically a leech and parasite is pretty low, even for you.

Saratoga_Mike
04-24-2019, 04:16 PM
Your solution is zero takeout? Yeah, just like casinos and the lottery have. Even your beloved Hong Kong has higher takeout than most North American tracks, and they ARE a monopoly so they could cut it to 1% if they wanted to because they don't allow competition. Funny how they don't do that.



Moreover, Robinhood can charge zero commissions b/c of payment for order flow, something which obviously doesn't exist in the racing business model.

dilanesp
04-24-2019, 04:17 PM
This is really stupid stuff....and that's being nice.

I am very comfortable with my contributions to the game. I work tirelessly to improve the quality of information that has been, and continues to be, imparted to the public. Some appreciate it and some don't.

As someone who has gotten into many scraps with Andy here, let me echo this point. I don't agree with all of his opinions expressed here, but his day job is providing extensive amounts of good information to the public and serving as an ambassador for the sport. He does an amazing job. We need more Andy Serlings, even if it does mean I get slapped down every now and then on the PA board. :)

highnote
04-24-2019, 06:49 PM
Your solution is zero takeout? Yeah, just like casinos and the lottery have. Even your beloved Hong Kong has higher takeout than most North American tracks, and they ARE a monopoly so they could cut it to 1% if they wanted to because they don't allow competition. Funny how they don't do that.

Then on top of that, telling someone who has worked his ass off for racing that he's basically a leech and parasite is pretty low, even for you.

Obviously you missed that I was being facetious about zero takeout.

I went back and tried to find where I said he is a leech and a parasite. I couldn't find it. I guess when you can't win a debate your tactic is to make things up.

Still, you criticize, but offer no better solutions.

I'm patient. I'll wait to hear yours.
:coffee:

highnote
04-24-2019, 07:08 PM
As someone who has gotten into many scraps with Andy here, let me echo this point. I don't agree with all of his opinions expressed here, but his day job is providing extensive amounts of good information to the public and serving as an ambassador for the sport. He does an amazing job. We need more Andy Serlings, even if it does mean I get slapped down every now and then on the PA board. :)

He's a good commentator. I agree with that. However, he doesn't offer any good solutions to help grow the racing game. He, along with other oldsters, are quick to criticize those who do offer up solutions. Meanwhile, the toilet water is spinning in the bowl and racing is swirling down the drain.

Fortunately, horseplayers have more options than ever in today's world that didn't exist 30 years ago.

So let me reiterate some solutions I mentioned because I can't remember everything I've written:

1. Reduce the number of race days.
2. Increase the number of grass races.
3. Start a handicap division.
4. Eliminate all race day medication.

So which one of these ideas is radical, absurd, or unrealistic?

I agree that one or more of these ideas might not be popular with racetrack management and horsemen and that will prevent them from instituting any of these. As long as horsemen can pick up a check for running in last place there is no incentive to change. As long as executives can get subsidies from casinos that are large enough to provide all of them with paychecks every two weeks there is no incentive to change. Why should they? I don't blame them. But there is no room for a serious horseplayer in that game. That's ok. There are other great options for horseplayers. Times change. That is one reality we probably all agree on.

the little guy
04-24-2019, 07:54 PM
So let me reiterate some solutions I mentioned because I can't remember everything I've written:

1. Reduce the number of race days.
2. Increase the number of grass races.
3. Start a handicap division.
4. Eliminate all race day medication.

So which one of these ideas is radical, absurd, or unrealistic?





OK, here you go...


1 ) NYRA has done some of this to anyone paying attention. However, you can't simply eliminate Winter racing, or great chunks of days, without driving a significant portion of your participants away, which will very likely result in them never coming back. Many of your participants need Winter racing to make enough money to sustain themselves through the warmer months when the racing is much more competitive. It's a delicate eco-system, and simply cutting chunks of race days from your calendar will damage your product going forward, not improve it.


2 ) We card a significant number of turf races at NYRA as we have two courses at every track ( we just built a second one at Aqueduct ). You can't eliminate dirt racing altogether, as for about four months a year you can't run on the grass, and thus need dirt horses in your population. As it is, because we run so many turf races, it is hard to fill the dirt races in the Winter. Also, turf racing is very weather sensitive, and carding too many turf races can cause your cards to get destroyed in the event of rain, something that happened quite a bit in 2018. While you can try to protect turf races with MTOs, if you lose too many turf races, these MTOs will not be able to run in future carded dirt races, further reducing those fields going forward. It's an extremely delicate balance, and many would say we card too many turf races already.


3 ) Unless you are a horse alchemist ( if you are, you will be in high demand ) I don't even know what this means. You can't simply "start" a division....you need the players. To be honest, handicap races have gone away because people don't want to run in those races, so creating a division out of thin air of horses that won't even run, even if they existed, makes little to no sense. You can say this is some sort of solution on your part, but it's not. The supposed "handicap division" is in disarray this year, in case you haven't noticed. We wish it to be better and more robust....but you can't make that happen out of thin air.


4 ) Eliminating all race day medication is a goal/crusade of some people. I'm not weighing in on how I feel about that, but if you think that will strengthen field size, you are kidding only yourself. Regardless, this is not a "solution" as much as an opinion.


You write a LOT of words, and maybe your intentions are good, but that doesn't mean they make sense. You also continue to insult me with ageist remarks ( yes, you have bigotry issues ) and suggestions that I have no solutions. This is also untrue. My solutions are to educate and create a more entertaining environment. I try my best to do this each and every day through a variety of mediums. I am sure I am frequently unsuccessful, but to suggest I offer nothing is as incorrect as it is insulting.

Just because you say something is a solution doesn't make that so.

iamt
04-24-2019, 07:58 PM
"However, he doesn't offer any good solutions to help grow the racing game."

And neither do you.


As I have commented previously all your "solutions" basically come down to the basic, well known idea, that bigger fields is good for racing. None of what you have proposed actually addresses the whole question of why field sizes are falling.


You had your earlier rant on "socialism" for owners. If the purses were so good and returns so great form all these short fields why aren't there more owners and more horses? Why is someone like Jacobson getting out of the industry citing the lack of return when he should be best positioned to take advantage of it?



All that your idea of fewer race days and handicap divisions will do is further reduce returns to the owners, and accelerate the decline, we'll end up at a similar level to where we are now just with fewer races.


Removing raceday medications, while a noble step, in the short term will reduce the number of starts per runner.


More turf races has been recognized everywhere as an aid to field size. There are practical limits on how much more racing some tracks can take.






Owners and Handicappers for the main should expect to lose money on racing. It is basically discretionary spending, and people are deciding they aren't getting their money's worth and leaving the industry. Racing needs to improve the experience for both owners and handicappers to try and retain and build on who is there and this requires much larger structural changes to make it worthwhile for tracks to attempt than there is open t them at the moment.



Changes to host fees etc would be needed so tracks could see some realistic gain form the upside. The actual framework for races themselves isn't the problem, it is just where it manifests itself.

highnote
04-24-2019, 08:09 PM
I appreciate you taking time to share your comments. This has been a useful discussion. I will reply in detail later.

OK, here you go...


1 ) NYRA has done some of this to anyone paying attention. However, you can't simply eliminate Winter racing, or great chunks of days, without driving a significant portion of your participants away, which will very likely result in them never coming back. Many of your participants need Winter racing to make enough money to sustain themselves through the warmer months when the racing is much more competitive. It's a delicate eco-system, and simply cutting chunks of race days from your calendar will damage your product going forward, not improve it.


2 ) We card a significant number of turf races at NYRA as we have two courses at every track ( we just built a second one at Aqueduct ). You can't eliminate dirt racing altogether, as for about four months a year you can't run on the grass, and thus need dirt horses in your population. As it is, because we run so many turf races, it is hard to fill the dirt races in the Winter. Also, turf racing is very weather sensitive, and carding too many turf races can cause your cards to get destroyed in the event of rain, something that happened quite a bit in 2018. While you can try to protect turf races with MTOs, if you lose too many turf races, these MTOs will not be able to run in future carded dirt races, further reducing those fields going forward. It's an extremely delicate balance, and many would say we card too many turf races already.


3 ) Unless you are a horse alchemist ( if you are, you will be in high demand ) I don't even know what this means. You can't simply "start" a division....you need the players. To be honest, handicap races have gone away because people don't want to run in those races, so creating a division out of thin air of horses that won't even run, even if they existed, makes little to no sense. You can say this is some sort of solution on your part, but it's not. The supposed "handicap division" is in disarray this year, in case you haven't noticed. We wish it to be better and more robust....but you can't make that happen out of thin air.


4 ) Eliminating all race day medication is a goal/crusade of some people. I'm not weighing in on how I feel about that, but if you think that will strengthen field size, you are kidding only yourself. Regardless, this is not a "solution" as much as an opinion.


You write a LOT of words, and maybe your intentions are good, but that doesn't mean they make sense. You also continue to insult me with ageist remarks ( yes, you have bigotry issues ) and suggestions that I have no solutions. This is also untrue. My solutions are to educate and create a more entertaining environment. I try my best to do this each and every day through a variety of mediums. I am sure I am frequently unsuccessful, but to suggest I offer nothing is as incorrect as it is insulting.

Just because you say something is a solution doesn't make that so.

thaskalos
04-24-2019, 08:12 PM
He's a good commentator. I agree with that. However, he doesn't offer any good solutions to help grow the racing game. He, along with other oldsters, are quick to criticize those who do offer up solutions. Meanwhile, the toilet water is spinning in the bowl and racing is swirling down the drain.


If all of us contributed as much to the game as TLG does...then there could be no doubt that this game would be WAY better off than it currently is. What TLG does is a MUCH bigger help to the game than what WE could ever hope to provide...with our anonymous suggestions here. And I say this after having gotten into plenty of arguments here with him, myself.

You keep calling him an "oldster"...which means that you are a relatively young person. Might we attribute your overly-optimistic suggestions here to the "naivete of youth"? :)

highnote
04-24-2019, 09:56 PM
If all of us contributed as much to the game as TLG does...then there could be no doubt that this game would be WAY better off than it currently is. What TLG does is a MUCH bigger help to the game than what WE could ever hope to provide...with our anonymous suggestions here. And I say this after having gotten into plenty of arguments here with him, myself.

You keep calling him an "oldster"...which means that you are a relatively young person. Might we attribute your overly-optimistic suggestions here to the "naivete of youth"? :)

I am at the end of the baby boomers. I am an oldster. :(

thaskalos
04-24-2019, 10:09 PM
I am at the end of the baby boomers. I am an oldster. :(

If you are an oldster...then you should know that TLG isn't part of the problem. He is part of the SOLUTION.

highnote
04-25-2019, 12:18 AM
If you are an oldster...then you should know that TLG isn't part of the problem. He is part of the SOLUTION.

His lack of tact is a turnoff to former customers like me. So I wonder if he is truly part of the solution or a contributor to the problems. It is possible to be both.

I feel as a stakeholder it is my duty to be part of the solution. I didn't cause the decline in racing, but I have offered free advice and opinions that are worth every penny.

highnote
04-25-2019, 12:52 AM
OK, here you go...

I do agree with you that my solutions are not necessarily solutions. That was a poor word choice on my part. I should have called them "suggestions". My suggestions might lead to solutions, but if they are not tried then they won't. They won't get tried because there is a systemic problem in racing and the powers that be are too afraid to take risks to fix the problems that have led to the decline of racing. Fear of failure will prevent action from being taken that could reverse the decline.

Too, your negative attitude prevents you from being an evangelist for change. What I hear from you is the use of a lot of negatives.

You wrote:

you can't simply eliminate Winter racing,

You can't eliminate dirt racing altogether

You can't simply "start" a division... you can't make that happen out of thin air.

Eliminating all race day medication ... is not a "solution"

If you and the powers that be believe those things can't be done, then guess what... you're right.

I am not a bigot. I am just stating a fact. You're in the group called "oldsters", and old people are not as likely to be revolutionary thinkers as youngsters. Oldsters are just hoping they can survive in their jobs long enough to make it to retirement.

Youth has the benefit of time and can afford to take risks and rock the boat. Einstein was something like 24 when he came up with Relativity. The Beatles wrote their greatest songs when they were 20-30 years old. Travis Kalanick created UBER when he was young. Steve Jobs. Bill Gates. Zuckerberg. Mozart. The list goes on.

As I have said before, when I came up with the idea of a betting exchange back in 1997 (when I was still a youngster) I knew it would have disrupted the industry had it been allowed to happen in the U.S., but the threat of jail kept me from pursuing. Betfair did disrupt the industry in England. Racing executives are so afraid of betting exchanges that it took Betfair 20 years of lobbying before it became legal in NJ. UBER disrupted the taxi industry globally. Both those companies were (and probably still are) hated and loathed. A lot of people have been hurt by them. Change is not always easy. The old ways would have eventually come to an end one way or another. It is inevitable that they would be replaced by something new and better.

Racing has so much competition from new and better forms of entertainment that it is surprising it still exists. Thank goodness for racinos. Otherwise BEL and AQU would be housing and shopping complexes.

On the other hand, sometimes oldsters do have good ideas. Beethoven was 53 when his 9th symphony was first performed. However, he started thinking about setting the "Ode to Joy" poem to music when he was 22. So maybe when today's racing youngsters become oldsters they will have it all figured out.

We'll see.

Tom
04-25-2019, 09:42 AM
Why would anyone need tact with a self-described former customer? :rolleyes:

Open 2 tracks and fill them with turf races.....really great idea.
Did you not see any of Saratoga last year - the most decimated meeting I can remember.

NYRA needs to replace one turf course at teach plant with a poly track, IMHO, if they insist on running so many turf races.

How's that for a suggestion?

46zilzal
04-25-2019, 10:27 AM
I look around and the mean age continues to rise..At just about every venue I attend. .....except Oaklawn..

UNLESS there is something to motivate the younger crowd, when we die off who will take our place?

Woodbine used to have a televised channel on the tube every racing day (PUBLIC channel for all to see). Each day they would give a stake to about 5 to 6 groups of young people and then follow then during the racing card to update their progress. Was a very successful maneuver until the Slots at Racetracks program was junked....NOW they are as corporate as the other tracks forgetting the good progress they made....Too bad.

Myself I think it has to do with widespread ADD in the younger crowd.....Without constant titillation they are out of here.

johnhannibalsmith
04-25-2019, 10:31 AM
Holy shit

the little guy
04-25-2019, 11:02 AM
Holy shit

It's kind of the answer to "this thread is so bad that....."


A nine year hiatus and, somehow, it seemed like just yesterday.

highnote
04-25-2019, 12:15 PM
Why would anyone need tact with a self-described former customer? :rolleyes:

Open 2 tracks and fill them with turf races.....really great idea.
Did you not see any of Saratoga last year - the most decimated meeting I can remember.

NYRA needs to replace one turf course at teach plant with a poly track, IMHO, if they insist on running so many turf races.

How's that for a suggestion?

Those suggestions are as valid as mine. :D

Have you ever seen a Breeders' Cup turf race taken off the turf and switched to the main track?

Nitro
04-25-2019, 12:45 PM
His lack of tact is a turnoff to former customers like me. So I wonder if he is truly part of the solution or a contributor to the problems. It is possible to be both.

I feel as a stakeholder it is my duty to be part of the solution. I didn't cause the decline in racing, but I have offered free advice and opinions that are worth every penny.

Isn’t it ironic that the people who have filled one PA thread after another over the years with every complaint and negative comment imaginable about the state of the horse racing game in N.A. are the same people that are so close-minded about making some positive suggested changes? Changes that just might offer some serious solutions to the game’s continued decline.

Someone has recently been using the term “Cliché”. Well from where I’m sitting the best cliché I could think of that relates to any positive outlook for the game based on some of the rhetoric here would be: “Misery Loves Company”.

I can truthfully say that from my personal experience in playing for many decades, that had it not been for the discovery of Hong Kong racing I would have quit the game entirely at least 5 years ago. However, I’m not going to bore the skeptics and naysayers with any more of my positive reactions to the HK game.
Not knowing what its all about is their loss.

the little guy
04-25-2019, 12:46 PM
Isn’t it ironic that the people who have filled one PA thread after another over the years with every complaint and negative comment imaginable about the state of the horse racing game in N.A. are the same people that are so close-minded about making some positive suggested changes? Changes that just might offer some serious solutions to the game’s continued decline.

Someone has recently been using the term “Cliché”. Well from where I’m sitting the best cliché I could think of that relates to any positive outlook for the game based on some of the rhetoric here would be: “Misery Loves Company”.

I can truthfully say that from my personal experience in playing for many decades, that had it not been for the discovery of Hong Kong racing I would have quit the game entirely at least 5 years ago. However, I’m not going to bore the skeptics and naysayers with any more of my positive reactions to the HK game.
Not knowing what its all about is their loss.


Still trolling.

highnote
04-25-2019, 01:07 PM
Isn’t it ironic that the people who have filled one PA thread after another over the years with every complaint and negative comment imaginable about the state of the horse racing game in N.A. are the same people that are so close-minded about making some positive suggested changes? Changes that just might offer some serious solutions to the game’s continued decline.

Someone has recently been using the term “Cliché”. Well from where I’m sitting the best cliché I could think of that relates to any positive outlook for the game based on some of the rhetoric here would be: “Misery Loves Company”.

I can truthfully say that from my personal experience in playing for many decades, that had it not been for the discovery of Hong Kong racing I would have quit the game entirely at least 5 years ago. However, I’m not going to bore the skeptics and naysayers with any more of my positive reactions to the HK game.
Not knowing what its all about is their loss.

I agree. I did stop betting several years ago until I started following HK.

It's not for everyone. The hours are difficult. However, it is only two days per week. So it is manageable.

Nitro
04-25-2019, 01:11 PM
Still trolling.
Is that the limit to your vocabulary? Unfortunately, you have no clue as what it actually means.
But for you to even respond to my reply to another member indicates your ambivalence to the entire topic.

46zilzal
04-25-2019, 02:38 PM
NYRA needs to replace one turf course at teach plant with a poly track, IMHO, if they insist on running so many turf races.

How's that for a suggestion?
Tapeta would be okay...Polytrack is crap particularly in temperature extremes...maintenance is difficult as well, it stinks sticks and is dirty, trust me I still have stains on my pants when I went out to clean the photofinish mirror

Tom
04-25-2019, 04:49 PM
I just use "poly" to mean any artificial surface - force of habit.
But yes, agree Tapeta is the best out there.

I have no hesitation playing horses on artificial off of their turf lines. Not the other way around, though.

Anything is better than 5 horse field with 2 MTOs in it, both under 2-1.

Thomas Roulston
04-27-2019, 06:49 PM
This article appeared on a sports website recently:

https://www.sports-central.org/sports/2019/04/23/is_horse_racing_about_to_implode.php

clicknow
07-03-2019, 02:12 AM
Is there anything you can suggest from the Hong Kong model which would reduce the current concerns in North American horse racing at this present time. ?

Yours is a good approach. There doesn't have to be a 1:1 duplication, because as others have pointed out, U.S. racing and HK racing are very different.

However, by not "reinventing the wheel", one can take any model and adopt some of the good things from it and toss what doesn't work.

I think Jeff Platt had some good specifics which show up in his screenshot links here, back in 2014 on the HANA website:
http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hkjcmodel.html



I'm maxxed out on being nicer to horses.

What am I supposed to do?


I think being nicer to horses actually interprets into being nicer to bettors.

Bettors not having to handicap drugs, for instance, is going to yield better results for them.

It's not any one thing that is going to "fix" U.S. racing. The point is to make a small start on some stuff that WILL help.


And, Nitro and Highnote would not be the only people "I know of" who have quit wagering on U.S. racing. In my circle of horse racing friends, who have been passionately in the game for 20+ years, there are actually 3 who walked away this year and last and only wager foreign races. I think that's a very bad sign.....I mean, when you have huge fans of our sport who are not just "adding" HK and other racing to their plate, but literally leaving U.S. racing altogether, I think that means there's a problem that needs to be solved. We need to know the specific things that would "bring them back into the fold".

Calling them trolls isn't exactly going to accomplish that.

airford1
07-03-2019, 12:58 PM
It's sort of a shame that people outside the industry may be associating Lasix with horses breaking down at SA, but personally I think it's a welcomed change to have our stakes races being run clean.

Are we implying that the use of Lasix is covering other illegal drugs?

ReplayRandall
07-03-2019, 01:02 PM
Are we implying that the use of Lasix is covering other illegal drugs?
Here's a better question.....If there's an 8 horse race, and 2 of the horses are running without Lasix, do you think they're at a disadvantage?

Fager Fan
07-03-2019, 01:31 PM
Here's a better question.....If there's an 8 horse race, and 2 of the horses are running without Lasix, do you think they're at a disadvantage?

No. The trainer wouldn't be running without Lasix if they thought they'd be at a disadvantage.

ReplayRandall
07-03-2019, 01:36 PM
No. The trainer wouldn't be running without Lasix if they thought they'd be at a disadvantage.
Sorry FF, but you're giving trainers waaaayy too much credit....You were joking, right?

AndyC
07-03-2019, 01:41 PM
.......I think being nicer to horses actually interprets into being nicer to bettors.

Bettors not having to handicap drugs, for instance, is going to yield better results for them.......

How does no drugs yield better results? If the absence of drugs makes racing more form-full then bettors will lose any no-drug benefits through lower mutuel payoffs.

There are many reasons to support changes to drug rules in racing with the horses safety being the top priority.

bob60566
07-03-2019, 05:15 PM
How does no drugs yield better results? If the absence of drugs makes racing more form-full then bettors will lose any no-drug benefits through lower mutuel payoffs.

There are many reasons to support changes to drug rules in racing with the horses safety being the top priority.

That statement is correct.

Only veterinarians can legally prescribe medicine, yet they often let trainers, who are paid to win races, make medical decisions, including which drugs to use. These veterinarians also have a powerful financial incentive to prescribe drugs: they are both doctor and drugstore, and so the more drugs they prescribe, the more money they make. Selling and administering drugs, in fact, accounts for most of their income.

Is it any wonder that our industry is being criticized for being overmedicated?” said Stuart S. Janney III, chairman of the Thoroughbred Safety Committee of the Jockey Club, an influential industry group.

Full article

http://blog.horseracingreform.com/post/2019/06/27/vet-s-selling-drugs-a-tough-nut-to-crack

AndyC
07-03-2019, 07:27 PM
That statement is correct.

Only veterinarians can legally prescribe medicine, yet they often let trainers, who are paid to win races, make medical decisions, including which drugs to use. These veterinarians also have a powerful financial incentive to prescribe drugs: they are both doctor and drugstore, and so the more drugs they prescribe, the more money they make. Selling and administering drugs, in fact, accounts for most of their income.

Is it any wonder that our industry is being criticized for being overmedicated?” said Stuart S. Janney III, chairman of the Thoroughbred Safety Committee of the Jockey Club, an influential industry group.

Full article

http://blog.horseracingreform.com/post/2019/06/27/vet-s-selling-drugs-a-tough-nut-to-crack

If there is a rampant drug safety problem what exactly is this committee influencing?

bob60566
07-03-2019, 07:47 PM
If there is a rampant drug safety problem what exactly is this committee influencing?

If you ever find out let us all know another committee that will not rock the boat for its members

clicknow
07-03-2019, 07:59 PM
If there is a rampant drug safety problem what exactly is this committee influencing?

It's probably like their post-mortem database or equine injury database.

"Working with key industry stakeholders, The Jockey Club is committed to assisting in the development of the post-mortem database. "

They don't consider bettors, who fuel the industry with their wagering, to be "key industry stakeholders" is only thing I can figure?

If you try to find the equine injury database: "Information contained in the Equine Injury Database that is not provided on this website is not available to the public. By agreement with the tracks, injury information is provided by the participating racetracks on a confidential basis..."

What is provided on the website is only a 2 line chart, listing the year, and 1 statistical number representing the rate per thousands for each year.

There is no way to do further research or drill down to anything.

I'm sure they are discussing some important things, and making some progress on them, but without access to information there is no way for anyone to track that progress, hold feet to fire, etc.

There is no way for people who are "outsiders" to address the drug safety problem, because you can't track the progress of any of the initiatives like you could a bill going thru Congress with a legislative history......

I assume that this all comes under the "lack of transparency" heading that horseplayers complain about. Like if you're buying a horse to race you may have access to veterinary records. If you're betting the horse in it's next race, you are left in the dark. You are not considered an "investor" in any way shape or form. This is one of the things that is pointed out about HK racing which people like. You do have access to these reports. And, IMHO, you should. Your wager represents an investment.

bob60566
07-03-2019, 09:29 PM
Everybody's favourite statement in this industry.

"Working with key industry stakeholders. lol

statepierback
07-03-2019, 11:14 PM
Its progress and long overdue!

Fager Fan
07-04-2019, 07:35 AM
It's probably like their post-mortem database or equine injury database.

"Working with key industry stakeholders, The Jockey Club is committed to assisting in the development of the post-mortem database. "

They don't consider bettors, who fuel the industry with their wagering, to be "key industry stakeholders" is only thing I can figure?

If you try to find the equine injury database: "Information contained in the Equine Injury Database that is not provided on this website is not available to the public. By agreement with the tracks, injury information is provided by the participating racetracks on a confidential basis..."

What is provided on the website is only a 2 line chart, listing the year, and 1 statistical number representing the rate per thousands for each year.

There is no way to do further research or drill down to anything.

I'm sure they are discussing some important things, and making some progress on them, but without access to information there is no way for anyone to track that progress, hold feet to fire, etc.

There is no way for people who are "outsiders" to address the drug safety problem, because you can't track the progress of any of the initiatives like you could a bill going thru Congress with a legislative history......

I assume that this all comes under the "lack of transparency" heading that horseplayers complain about. Like if you're buying a horse to race you may have access to veterinary records. If you're betting the horse in it's next race, you are left in the dark. You are not considered an "investor" in any way shape or form. This is one of the things that is pointed out about HK racing which people like. You do have access to these reports. And, IMHO, you should. Your wager represents an investment.

I agree that the database is generally useless.

But get over the stakeholder thing. Stakeholders are those with financial investments in the sport, in this case the tracks. Buy yourself a track, or even a horse, if you feel so left out. I have an Apple phone but that doesn’t make me an Apple stakeholder.

Hambletonian
07-04-2019, 08:33 AM
Here's a crazy idea for everyone's perusal.

How about fining and/or suspending the trainer if a horse does not finish the race?

Every bettor should be able to expect that all entrants are physically able to complete the race barring unforeseen circumstances. So if a horse does not finish the race due to injury, they basically have been defrauded as to the health of the horse.

Exemptions would be made for horses that clip heels, or are brought down, and trainers would have the option to appeal if a necropsy proves the horse in question did not have any pre-existing injuries.

Considering all the solutions being bandied about, I imagine this one could be the easiest to implement and quickly result in a reduction of crippled animals being prepped primarily to pass the vet and make it to the starting gate.

What I would also love to see is a health passport for every registered thoroughbred. It would start with a full exam including xrays of all limbs prior to a horse's first start, and it would have to be repeated periodically so that a horse would have to be cleared before being allowed to participate in races. In addition, the passport would be updated every time the horse suffers an injury requiring treatment. And the information would be available to the public. If that means the end to claiming races, so be it, that alone would be a step in the right direction.

We cannot make racing 100% safe, but we can make the safety of equines and jockeys of paramount importance.

highnote
07-06-2019, 12:58 AM
There is one good way to get drugs out of racing -- stop wagering on races at tracks where race day drugs are allowed and tell everyone you know who bets at those tracks to stop, too. That's what I have done.

I stopped wagering altogether for a couple of years until I started wagering on HK races. Full fields every race. You don't have to try to handicap which trainers are giving their horses drugs. They race two days per week and have a 6-8 week break in July-August. It is downright civil. I won't be betting for those 6-8 weeks. Saratoga would be fun to bet. It's a great track with a great tradition, but as long as drugs are allowed I won't bet the races there.

I seriously suggest you stop wagering for 30 days -- for your own mental health.

Personally, I feel that if you can't stop wagering on horse races for 30 days then you might be a compulsive gambler. ANYONE should be able to stop wagering for 30 days. If you can't, then you probably have a gambling problem.

It's the same with booze. If you can't go 30 days without alcohol you're probably an alcoholic.

I got this idea from a psychiatrist who wrote about trading futures. The first thing he said is that you MUST stop trading futures for 30 days. If you can't stop then you are a gambler, not an investor.

Fager Fan
07-06-2019, 01:06 AM
There is one good way to get drugs out of racing -- stop wagering on races at tracks where race day drugs are allowed and tell everyone you know who bets at those tracks to stop, too. That's what I have done.

I stopped wagering altogether for a couple of years until I started wagering on HK races. Full fields every race. You don't have to try to handicap which trainers are giving their horses drugs. They race two days per week and have a 6-8 week break in July-August. It is downright civil. I won't be betting for those 6-8 weeks. Saratoga would be fun to bet. It's a great track with a great tradition, but as long as drugs are allowed I won't bet the races there.

I seriously suggest you stop wagering for 30 days -- for your own mental health.

Personally, I feel that if you can't stop wagering on horse races for 30 days then you might be a compulsive gambler. ANYONE should be able to stop wagering for 30 days. If you can't, then you probably have a gambling problem.

It's the same with booze. If you can't go 30 days without alcohol you're probably an alcoholic.

I got this idea from a psychiatrist who wrote about trading futures. The first thing he said is that you MUST stop trading futures for 30 days. If you can't stop then you are a gambler, not an investor.

All that over Lasix? Really?

highnote
07-06-2019, 01:26 AM
All that over Lasix? Really?

How about dead horses at SA?

Not to mention 5 and 6 horse fields. No thanks, but you go ahead and have fun betting those.

Fager Fan
07-06-2019, 08:19 AM
How about dead horses at SA?

Not to mention 5 and 6 horse fields. No thanks, but you go ahead and have fun betting those.

You said to stop betting tracks that allow race day meds. There’s only one race day me - Lasix.

On-track fatalities, large fields, those are better reasons. What is their fatality rate?

highnote
07-06-2019, 03:05 PM
There’s only one race day me - Lasix.


Banamine is another one allowed. There are others.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/188044/race-day-medications-the-debate-goes-on

The Kentucky policy, which allows use of multiple therapeutic drugs on race day...

Fager Fan
07-07-2019, 08:09 AM
Banamine is another one allowed. There are others.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/188044/race-day-medications-the-debate-goes-on

The Kentucky policy, which allows use of multiple therapeutic drugs on race day...

Congrats for giving us an article from 17 years ago.

Lasix is the only drug currently allowed to be administered on race day.

highnote
07-07-2019, 12:31 PM
Congrats for giving us an article from 17 years ago.

Lasix is the only drug currently allowed to be administered on race day.

It's not the age of the article it's the point the article is making.

Here is a newer one:

https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/2019/04/12/is-horse-racing-addicted-to-drugs-as-critics-charge-necropsies-reveal-strong-clues/

"In California, horses are not permitted to have more than one anti-inflammatory in their system during a race."

An anti-inflammatory drug plus Lasix makes two drugs that are allowed on race day. Everyone knows Lasix can mask drugs in a horse's system and according to the article NSAIDs can also mask other drugs. I am not so naïve to believe trainers do not take advantage of the rule of allowing two masking drugs on race day so that they can mask other drugs in a horse's system.

So much for only allowing only Lasix on race day.

Fager Fan
07-07-2019, 12:38 PM
It's not the age of the article it's the point the article is making.

Here is a newer one:

https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/2019/04/12/is-horse-racing-addicted-to-drugs-as-critics-charge-necropsies-reveal-strong-clues/

"In California, horses are not permitted to have more than one anti-inflammatory in their system during a race."

An anti-inflammatory drug plus Lasix makes two drugs that are allowed on race day. Everyone knows Lasix can mask drugs in a horse's system and according to the article NSAIDs can also mask other drugs. I am not so naïve to believe trainers do not take advantage of the rule of allowing two masking drugs on race day so that they can mask other drugs in a horse's system.

So much for only allowing only Lasix on race day.

The anti inflammatory isn’t given on race day. Only Lasix is.

If you’re now talking of threshold limits allowed, then please do tell us what the threshold limits are in that racing utopia Hong Kong?

bob60566
07-07-2019, 01:39 PM
It's not the age of the article it's the point the article is making.

Here is a newer one:

https://www.pasadenastarnews.com/2019/04/12/is-horse-racing-addicted-to-drugs-as-critics-charge-necropsies-reveal-strong-clues/

"In California, horses are not permitted to have more than one anti-inflammatory in their system during a race."

An anti-inflammatory drug plus Lasix makes two drugs that are allowed on race day. Everyone knows Lasix can mask drugs in a horse's system and according to the article NSAIDs can also mask other drugs. I am not so naïve to believe trainers do not take advantage of the rule of allowing two masking drugs on race day so that they can mask other drugs in a horse's system.

So much for only allowing only Lasix on race day.

DMSO is a leg liniment....this is what masks the EPO. it's a known masking agent for a variety of drugs,

highnote
07-07-2019, 01:48 PM
The anti inflammatory isn’t given on race day. Only Lasix is.

If you’re now talking of threshold limits allowed, then please do tell us what the threshold limits are in that racing utopia Hong Kong?

I don't know off hand what the limits are. Would you be kind enough to research it and get back to us?

A horse in the U.S. could be administered an anti-inflammatory at 11:59pm the day before a race. Technically, it would not be a race day medication, but we all know what the intent is.

bob60566
07-07-2019, 02:02 PM
I don't know off hand what the limits are. Would you be kind enough to research it and get back to us?

A horse in the U.S. could be administered an anti-inflammatory at 11:59pm the day before a race. Technically, it would not be a race day medication, but we all know what the intent is.

It is sad that this is perfectly legal, And information is great tool in horse racing.