Programs I use or have used

[JimG]

Some one brought it up in another thread but I thought it would be interesting to see who owns or has tried what in the thoroughbred software world.

Programs that I own and use from time to time in no particular order:

All-Ways Pro
Capsheet
Plus V
Horse Street Handicapper
Equisim ROI

Programs I own and/or have tried:

PHQS
Clint Tracy Insta-Pick
HTR
Multicaps
Neurax Pro
Synergism VI
Aodds Silver
Work Horse Pro


I'm probably forgetting a few...but that is a start. Damn, I am a software junkie. There are still times though I prefer just to handicap from the Daily Racing Form.

Hope others respond with what they have tried.

Jim

[GR1@HTR]

Jim,

What were your thoughts about AOdds?

[JimG]

Originally posted by GR1
Jim,

What were your thoughts about AOdds?


I used the "Silver" version from BRIS about 5 years ago for a short while. The odds line was pretty good from what I remember. Oddly enough, it was a pace program but I used the class rating a good bit (PCR??) and had some success. I understand there was an enhanced version for purchase but I never bought.

Jim


PS: I forgot to include HTRF by Jim Ott in my original list. I own that as well.

[shane]

JimG,

I own The Master Handicapper and HSH. I've had Tmh for 12
yrs. and HSH for 1. Neither were very successful out of the
box.
I only play the Ohio circuit and the winter racing at Beulah
is cruel to s/w. Anything that measures any part of a race by
time is usually doomed. Most of the daily variants including
DRF and beyers are money burners.
I no longer use HSH. The last computer I had crashed so I'm
now using XP home. I haven't called Dave to get a re-install
and doubt I will.
I'm most comfortable with TMH. After they came out with the
pin point adjustment in late '94 I finally got out of the red. It
was mentioned by Michael Pizzolla that with the advent of
downloading and faster computers that the adjustments
would eventually be done automatically.
There have been no updates to TMH since Sept. '95. They
still have support and have gone out of their way to help
especially in getting a DOS program to run in XP. I know I
was very grateful.

[shane]

Actually I've had TMH for 8 yrs.

[Lefty]

yeah, I forgot a couple I have too. I used to have the manual ver of Essential Handicapper(TMH grew from this) but lost it in a hard disk crash. And I have HTRF. I prob. still forgot some but hell I got enough, ya think?

[JimG]

Shane:

You've been using TMH as long as I've been using Capsheet/Plus V. That truly stands the test of time.


Lefty: Between you and I we must own all the commercial handicapping programs <g>.


How about the rest of you lurkers??? 330 views and only 5 replies? I know some of you are using commerical programs!! What are you using and your likes/dislikes with them?


Jim

[anotherdave]

I haven't got many. I use HTRF. The other other commercial program that I've bought is Fast Fred. It was OK, but a little constrictive for choosing pace lines (for me). I haven't seen the updates to it (Although I did report a major bug in the version I bought and was supposed to get all the updates because of that!)

I always wanted to try one of the Sartin programs, but less so now. I was ready until a couple of years ago when I got a pamphlet from him for a software that used non-linear odds lines. The program would set odds lines (according to the brochure) where two horses were 1-1 another was 2-1 and another was 3-1. He said we had to stop thinking linearly. I'm afraid that was too much for me to buy. Every horse was an overlay so how do you bet? But I think his concepts otherwise are pretty good, a lot of the software uses FeetPerSecond now.

I guess I gave up on finding the perfect software for me, but then I didn't try many. I use software to speed up the calculation process and then make the final adjustments and decisions myself. It's more work, but more fun too.

AD

[rrbauer]

shane

re: Installing DOS program on XP.

I'm still running "98" on all my machines, but I'm curious as to installing a DOS program on XP. Intuitively I would say it's a matter of raising the DOS prompt and then running whatever you're going to run from the command line; such as a .BAT file to install/startup your application; or, just running the .EXE straight away. I understand that DOS is simply another task under XP (as it is in 2000 and NT) but that the basic command set is still the same. Am I oversimplifying? Everything that I use runs within the 640k memory limitation...no multi-threads, no memory-management or swapping. Do my own screen management. Should be OK?

Oh! All my s/w is home grown and uses data downloaded from BRIS and DRF (via Formulator exports) that I use to build/maintain a database which I extract from based on each day's entries. I did try ThoroBrain many years ago (too much data entry for my fat fingers) and another thing that came out of Nevada and used BRIS files, but I ended up doing my own thing to get what I wanted. I'm a firm believer that if I'm using the same stuff that everyone else uses then, "where's my edge?"

[Lefty]

JimG, just when we think we got 'em all somebody comes up with a new one.
So many prgms, so little time.
That used to be women instead of prms but my wife is very adament I stick to prgms and i'm gettin' too old to fight.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dick,

How are you? Haven't spoken with you for a long time.

Hope all is well.


Many old DOS programs were written using some form of "DOS extender." (Remember when "memory" meant 640k?) Some of those DOS extenders are incompatiable with Win98 and most with NT-based systems.

In other words, some will run, some won't.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[shane]

Hi Dave,

I'm doing real well. Enjoying retirement.

rbauer:

The problem I had getting the DOS program to run in XP was
the dongle. Couldn't get the computer to recognize the
printer port. Fortunately, they had a fix disc and that solved
it.
I like TMH except for having to use a separate file. If you
download the pp's you still have the additional $1.50 for the
TMH file. When BEU, TDN and RD are all running on the same day
it's going to be $9.00 for 7 races at each track.
With the way TDN and RD have gotten chalky and now BEU also
it's getting tough to find anything to bet.

shane

[rrbauer]

Dave S.

Thanks for the DOS info.

Can I conclude that if my stuff runs on NT that it will run on XT?

BTW...Do you use the Money Management approach that you wrote about many moons ago, or something similar? It was about 1990 vintage as I recall.

One of the things that gets in the way of my money management is the variety of bets that are available and I don't have a good methodology for allocation towards the respective bet types.

Thoughts?

Want to start a new thread for this?

[Bob Harris]

Originally posted by JimG
Shane:

You've been using TMH as long as I've been using Capsheet/Plus V. That truly stands the test of time.


Lefty: Between you and I we must own all the commercial handicapping programs <g>.


How about the rest of you lurkers??? 330 views and only 5 replies? I know some of you are using commerical programs!! What are you using and your likes/dislikes with them?


Jim

I've been using the Pizzolla/Langjahr programs for the last 10 years...TEH,TMH and Handicapping Magic. There should be another offering from ITS available in the near future that I know Michael is really excited about...when I get my copy I'll review it for the group.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dick,

I assume that you mean Horse Market Investing or HMI as we call it.

Yes, I have been using that since my blackjack days in the mid '70s when I put it together. Still using it.

As I recall, did you not build a rather cool ticket-strutcuring program? (I don't recall the name... saw it once and it was very interesting stuff.)


Dave

[andicap]

Yeah, JimG, I've used a lot of programs in the past, but haven't paid for one in quite a while. I'm not a big enough bettor -- and don't have the time -- to afford paying $120 a month for downloads. I still like looking at real racing forms (BRIS mostly for the pace figs) instead of the faux ones you get from software. Although I have to admit HTR's new software gives you a damn good one.

And I don't have time to tinker with them the way I used to.

I guess if i were to buy a program today it might be HTR, which I've trialed -- for free.

Right now I use a proprietary program someone built for me based on BRIS figures, but in the past I've tried a few back when I had plenty of time to play with them. (no family, etc.)

--All-in-One (my first, back when it was still Five-in-One). Didn't know enough about pace to really understand it. Eventually moved away from programs that asked you to choose a single paceline.
--Aodds. Which i really hated.
--Multicaps -- used it for free when it started as a beta testor for John Marrone then paid for it and gave it up because $90 a month he was charging at the time was too much for me then. I gave it up because pre-BRIS you needed to find your own par times.
--Dark Horse. Just never felt comfortable with "self-weighting" pacelines.
--Thorovision. My favorite. Used it for free for two years as my reward for writing the manual. Best program I ever used. Wished it were still around. So many great tools and most importantly, so easy to use. No offense against some good programs currently around, but I just don't want to have to spend 3 months working full-time just learning how to make a program work. Thorovision took a few days and was excellent!
-- Pace Advantage. I won with this program and have the records to prove it. This was an early edition, not the one PA sold a couple of years ago, and it was good. Only trouble was it was kind of clunky to use as it was a crude DOS program -- but this was 1992-93.
Why did I stop using it? Just too clunky and somehow it never made the transition to my new PCs. And PA stopped servicing it.

[rrbauer]

Dave S.:

RE: Ticket-structuring program.

I wrote SIX-SHOOTER (which is the one that you probably remember for P6's and I now use it for P4's too); THREE-BAGGER (Pick 3's); TRI-BABY (Trifectas); and, SUPER-DUTCH (Title tells it all!).

Because I'm a "one-man band" it has always been difficult to keep the products current vis-a-vis Microsoft's continually changing OP system environments; add new features; promote and sell; and, provide technical support. As a result, I stopped actively promoting the products about 4 years ago. I still get some inquiries via word-of-mouth referrals.

I'm rewriting SUPER-DUTCH in Java to make it OP system neutral just to get some feel for what that takes to do. I'm also playing a couple tracks a day, so sometimes the only Java that gets done is the stuff that I drink at 6AM!

Anyone:

What ever happened to MORNING LINER? As I recall it came out of Nevada and then didn't the guy who wrote/handled it just disappear?

[Dave Schwartz]

Dick,

Morning Liner was written by Dennis Allen and Paul Peterson. (I think thatere was actually a third guy as well.) Paul used to live in Reno and Dennis somewhere in Northern California. I do not know the status of either them or the program beyond the fact that Paul has been away from things for 10 years or more.

Dave

[BillW]

Allen has a site up but very inactive.

http://www.missinglink.com

Bill W.

[rrbauer]

Dave/Bill

Thanks...just looked at that site and when I looked at the "product list" it was deja vu all over again!!

OK-- I remember now. Allen was the programer and Peterson was the "marketing" guy. When I saw the "robot" thing on the product list, another wave of nostalgia hit me. What Peterson was doing was encouraging customers to:

1. Buy lots of data from BRIS.
2. Use the robot feature of the ML program to test various "setups" (which, in essence, were filters) against different tracks, distances, surfaces, etc., to see if there were any "automatic" plays available based on $ROI.
3. Then Peterson got the customers to give him the setup criteria that they used so he could do further "testing".

What I understood was that Peterson was taking the really good filters and using them himself and playing their selections. Let's recap:
1. Sell the customer the software.
2. Get the customer to buy data and find profitable applications for the software.
3. Take the customers' free feedback and make more money from it.

What a guy!

It all comes back to me!! Enough already...heading for Los Al!

[BillW]

Richard,

I think you're seeing more of a conspiracy than really existed. I used the Plus-V for awhile and setups weren't all that hard to build, and certainly weren't profitable as a standalone handicapper.

Bill W.

[sq764]

Anyone every try Joe Zambuto's software? And if so, what did you think?


scott

[Dave Schwartz]

Dick,

I suppose one could get the same take as you on the Morning Liner, but my view was much different.

Paul was so dedicated to his users and the program itself that he could not handle the rejection of returns. (And when BRIS offers a money-back guarantee on something, a huge percentage are returned. Paul once told me over 60% came back!) Ultimately, it affected him to the point where he sought psychological help.

In my opinion, Paul Peterson demonstrated honor and integrity while in the horse racing business.

Understand that I have not so much as spoken to Paul in about 7 years although I run into his father once in awhile.

I don't know anything about Dennis Allen but have no reason to believe he was any different.


Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[andicap]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Dick,


In my opinion, Paul Peterson demonstrated honor and integrity while in the horse racing business.

Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Yeah, and I really liked him on "The Donna Reed Show," but Shelley Fabares was definitely cuter.

[how2020]

I posted a question about a software called Multi-Strats by banana software out of ohio(purchased in 1980 with support up to 2000) and reading all the responces about you guys and the years and history of the handicapping software I find it hard to believe that I only had 2 replies maybe thats why the company isn't around maybe is was just those 2 guys and me that ever used it. NO HELP ANYBODY ?

[BillW]

how2020,

Out of curiosity, what computer did you run this program on in 1980?

Bill W.

[Lefty]

sq764, a friend just asked me about this prgm and I visited web site. Looked interesting. My friend asked some questions and he said Tony Boleswas a user. I e-mailed Tony and got it back as undeliverable which was strange since I just used reply on an e-mail he sent me.
Anyway, Tony, you use this?
And Tony, if you've addressed this before it just shows what a lousy memory i'm carrying around these days.
Talkin' about the JZambuto orgm, that is.

[Lefty]

What happened? I was writing the above msg and hit backspace to correct a typo and boom, lost the page and got a warning that the page had expired. I got it back with the "back" button, but WHAT HAPPENED?

[PaceAdvantage]

You may have hit backspace when you were out of the message edit box and not realized it. If that's the case, backspace acts just like the BACK button on your browser. That's how you were transported back to the previous page. The expired message is just something that happens with certain types of web pages....


==PA

[how2020]

Originally posted by BillW
how2020,

Out of curiosity, what computer did you run this program on in 1980?

Bill W. It was probably more like 1983-84 and I had it in Comm-64 ver. but when I upgraded to an IBMxt they gave me a free upgrade. The last upgrade I had was in 1999 but someone told me they had upgrades up to 2000 and that's the last I heard.

[Lefty]

PA, you are correct; that's exactly what I did. OOPS!

[Topcat]

Originally posted by rrbauer
Dave S.:

RE: Ticket-structuring program.

I wrote SIX-SHOOTER (which is the one that you probably remember for P6's and I now use it for P4's too); THREE-BAGGER (Pick 3's); TRI-BABY (Trifectas); and, SUPER-DUTCH (Title tells it all!).

Because I'm a "one-man band" it has always been difficult to keep the products current vis-a-vis Microsoft's continually changing OP system environments; add new features; promote and sell; and, provide technical support. As a result, I stopped actively promoting the products about 4 years ago. I still get some inquiries via word-of-mouth referrals.

I'm rewriting SUPER-DUTCH in Java to make it OP system neutral just to get some feel for what that takes to do. I'm also playing a couple tracks a day, so sometimes the only Java that gets done is the stuff that I drink at 6AM!

Anyone:

What ever happened to MORNING LINER? As I recall it came out of Nevada and then didn't the guy who wrote/handled it just disappear?

I've got Dick Bauer Super Dutch and virtually all of the above mentioned programs and then some. Dick Bauer programs are one a fo few that I still use.

Dick won't remember this but when I bought it from him I agreed to meet him over at Los Alamitos and pay him there for the program. I met him upstairs at his "own" betting machine. H ehad handicapped out a race and said he though the hores could relaly run -it was going off at something like 8-1. He had multiple combinations going. i paid him for the program-wnet downstairs
and put in my onw exacta ticket and bingo the horse won going away and I paid for the program right ehn and there- I saw Mr. Baeur heading for the IRS withholding ticket-

Long story-good product and approach to structuring wager by Dick Baeur


On Morning Liner-as others have mentioned Dennis Allen is still around. Paul was really the developer and Dennis the programmer-Paul orignally developed a pencil and paer method. Last I heard Paul had returned to Reno. Paul was a writer by trade and wrote screenplays .e.g Sam Shepard and group.

Paul put out a good horse newsletter called Liner Notes-right up there with Dave Schwartz' Brain Waves. Peterson was working on methodoly called he called the ESM or the Einsteim Simplicity Method reliying heavily on Michale Pascual math and that took the morning line adjusted it not only to 100% but to compensate for the favorite lonshopt bias that morning line makers out into the line, . You would then punch inthe favorite for exepcted growth rate and then took the over lays to the morning line-tough to explain here-it had some merit but he dove head firsti into -tested thousaand of races-worked great on some tracks but not on others (different morning line maker) worked himslef into an actual nevrous breakdown-may not have been all that as I think he was also divorced. Anyway he abruptly canceled seminars and disappeared for months-when he returned he just didn't ahve the credibility that one needs. Paul then sold the paper and pencil method of Morning Liner to some promoter out of the midwest. Heard he was doing some wagering but stayiny low profile. Another sad horse playing story. e.g. Ron Ambrose, Steve Martin (Derby handicpaper often featured in PRN), etc

[tboles]

I'm here lefty...
Not sure why your msg came back to you as undeliverable.

I've use Zambuto's program for 2 months now. Joe just came out with his new version of the program a couple of weeks ago.
His new addition of the pace analysis based on Brohammer's
FTS is new to me and I am still trying to build my database so
I am not experienced enough to talk about that as of yet.
I do like the many features his program has to offer....
Searches for Key race horse's, Dosage, Self tuning,
imports the free results charts, saves data into excel, does not
rely on picking pace line for the main program, cls analysis,
jockey trainer analysis...many more features to boot.

I use this one in conjunction with Equisim and has been
profitable to date. I would recommend either one of these programs. Cost cannot be beat!

Tony

[rrbauer]

Dave S.

Just picked up your response to my post on Paul Peterson.

I certainly give credence to your viewpoint and character assessment. No insult to Mr. Peterson intended...now my story's not nearly as good!

I don't know him. What information I had came from someone who was heavily into ML during its hayday; constantly on the phone with Paul and Dennis (when he wasn't on the phone with me!); and, spending tons of money with BRIS (who I think he ultimately stiffed!) buying data and running ML robots night and day. I'm sure that when Paul "disappeared" it would have been easy to make some sinister conclusion from his perspective. To put that perspective in context, about the 3rd day he had ML he called me and told me that he had just found the "Holy Grail"!

The info on Paul's inability to deal with the lack of acceptance of the product is interesting. As an aside, Clint Tracy (aka David Powers) told me once that Mitchell's software stuff came back at about an 80% rate (which was factored into the pricing).

[Lefty]

Thanks, Tony.
Kerry, hope you're reading this. Your questions are answered.

[Dave Schwartz]

Richard,

The Holy Grail - LOL - Yeah, I remember those calls. About 4 or 5 years ago he was driving a cab here in Reno and "just making it," so to speak. I told him that I had this huge database (by today's standard, not "huge" but large, but everything is relative) and that I would entertain the idea that "we" could do a book together. Mostly, I'd do the research and he'd do the writing (nobody ever accused me of being a competent author). A week later he presented me with his up-front financial needs and I took a pass. That was the last time I saw or spoke with him.

His dad, a fine man and dedicated horse player, keeps me up to date whenever I see him. (Which is rare.)

(Aside to TC: It was Sam Peckinpaugh, he worked on only one picture for him, and, to my knowledge, it was his only claim to fame. When you'd meet him he'd usually start by saying, "I used to write for Peckinpaugh.")


A funny story about Paul Peterson... For those of you that have never met Paul, let me tell you that he was the spitting image of Albert Einstein, crazy hair and all. (And he worked to cultivate that connection.)

So, I had this guy working for me whose favorite t-shirt had a picture of Einstein on the front. One day, the three of us were at my home talking business and my (now ex) wife walks in. After introductions, she looks at Paul, then at the shirt, back at Paul and asks, "Why does he have Paul's picture on his shirt?"

Well, it was funny in the moment. Okay, so you had to be there.


Dave

[Topcat]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Richard,


(Aside to TC: It was Sam Peckinpaugh, he worked on only one picture for him, and, to my knowledge, it was his only claim to fame. When you'd meet him he'd usually start by saying, "I used to write for Peckinpaugh.")


Dave


Yes. i got my Sam's mixed up. Now that I have more than two hours sleep I can keep it straight.

Paul talked about a book on Peckinpaugh-called Bloody Sam : The Life and Films of Sam Peckinpah. The odd thing about it is he didn't write it but Marshall Fine did. I think it was because Paul was mentione in the book multiple times (as part of Peckinpaugh's rat pack) he mentiond it. But if you asked him specifically about it he wasn't flaterred by the references-the "partying" part was a little much. And he did look like Einstein-no wonder the nameon his non-handicapping idea.


For those of you who don't remember Peckinpaugh (or if you didn't get more then 2 hours sleep yourself) he's the one who did movies like Wild Bunch with bloody shoot out scenes in ultra slow motion-

Peterson did some other writing but nothing too big but that is the nature of writing-odds are you are destined to eke out a living unless you turn to technical writing-and wirters who have done that say it is not living. Regardless I wish him well

Some day I'll have to start a thread on horse race writers/handicappers and call it

Where are they now?
A few candiates:

John Meyer: Way back when he ran the Turf Investment Society-jsut abruptly stoped publishing after many years-where did he go?

Ron Ambrose-Barry Meadow ran into him-not a sbig a mystery as some say

Steve Martin: Alway pushed triple crwon handiapping courtesty of Phillips Racing Newsletter-had a nice string of winners for years- fell on hard times, then fell on shoulder and broke it-

Howard Sartin-declared bankruptcy-not really a doc

Mike Warren-more mailings than Publisher's Clearing House mailings stopped-was there ever really a Mike Warren? Let's hope not

Gordon Jones: Las Vegas seminars still? Good ole Gordo!

Lou Rousso-hot phone seminars for awhile-now?

William L. Quirin: His book was THEE book for me. We all know he gave up horse racing to return to the academic life. But what is he doing now? retired and..?

Tom Ainslie-His books never grabbled me the way it did others-Assume he is retired?

Tom Hambleton?

James Selvidge-author of the one of the screwest betting ideas around-base bet plus square root

Mike Fiorre-not surespelling that right-out of NY

Larry Hurley: System seller for years he put calulus ads in the DRFer and you got an APV formula and adjustements. The Hurley wheel

I could come up with others as I'm sure you could but i wish ihad more that were succesful and/or family men like Bradshaw.

TC

[rrbauer]

Minor updates on a couple of TC's "where are they now" folks.

Mike Warren. That's a pseudonym. He's out of Baltimore I think; and, at one time I knew his real name! I got a mailer from him recently. It was either football or horse racing subject matter...and, of course, he knew all the winners before the entries were taken!

Gordon Jones. The Prof was at last year's Fairplex meet doing his P6 seminars and his never-ending self-promotion. Personally I like Gordon; but, not his schtick.

Lee Rousso. Was living in Arcadia a couple years ago. Don't know now, but he was originally from the Seattle area and may have migrated back there when Emerald Downs opened.

Tom Hambleton. Was in LV the last that I heard.

Tom Ainslie. Funny that TC would mention him as a more-or-less "also ran". I feel the same way! Maybe when you've learned the game the hard way, from the ground up, and via the $2 windows, you're not as impressed with the "slick set".

Larry Hurley. Got a mailer from him last year.

[Lefty]

Last time I saw Tom Ainslie he was giving a speech about how he used one of Doc's prgms at a Sartin Seminar.
Gordon Jones has a contract with Sam's Town and posts his picks on the board every day there.

[Vinnie]

TopCat,

Doc Sartin isn't even a Real Doc?! I have never heard tell of that before I viewed your post. Very interesting. He also declared bankruptcy at some point, is that right? I guess you just never know?

[anotherdave]

I got (secondhand) a set of audio tapes and a couple of booklets to go with them. The presentation was very poor and extremely hard to understand (conceptually). Not that the topics were difficult, he just seemed to have trouble explaining them without going away to some other subject. Absolutely no focus in my opinion. Still I think he has positively contributed to handicapping.

By the way I don't get any mailers any more. I use to get them all the time. They were fun to read. Guess I'll have to buy something and get back on the mailing lists.

AD

[Topcat]

Originally posted by Vinnie
TopCat,

Doc Sartin isn't even a Real Doc?! I have never heard tell of that before I viewed your post. Very interesting. He also declared bankruptcy at some point, is that right? I guess you just never know?

His Doctorate was from a mail order degree mill. Sartin never really bet the horses- said he had enough money (obviously before bankruptcy). I didn't mind that just the deception and in print he ripped a religious writer for daring to build on a pschology theme. Sartin apparently had his own biases when it came to religion. One trick of his was to buy a $2 win ticket on every horse so he could then show the students how he had the winner picked.

In Handicpping Magic Pizzolla recounts how once a type setter sent in races and the results for commentary. Teh commentary came back showing how the student should have picked 7-8 of the winners. Unbeknowst to Sartin and teachers teh student, beng a typesetter had changed the results. There's a sting for you.

Since he has turned his mail order business over to his son Shane.

I liken Sartin to the flim flam character in the movie 101 Trombones-despite his con he managed to assemble such talented and dedicated handicappers that through them he did contribute. At one time he had a whose- who of handicappers surrounding him.

Unfortutnaley he now rails against most of these same handicapppers. Even writing this i run the risk of incurring Sartinites rath.

TC

[KyRacer]

Over the years I have received enough junk mail from Mike Warren to save a few trees. He should probably be picketed by the Green Peace group.

Recently I saw his name pop up as one of the contestants for the DRF/NTRA National Handicapping contest under the name Mike Warren Laskey. According to his bio, his father was Harvey Ames. Which counts for a few more dead trees. Again according to his bio he was the founder of the the Psychic Friends Network. Now we know where he got his winners or should I say his picks. Heres a link to his bio.

http://www.drf.com/home/championship/warren.html

Also what's up with Barry Burkan? Anyone use his stuff.

KyRacer

[Vinnie]

Topcat,

Thanks for clearing many of those issues up for me. Man oh Man, I never would have believed some time ago that Doc Sartin was capable of the Smoked Glass and mirrors tricks. I guess that you learn something new just about every day. Admittedly, I was sort of naive to believe that everything he said at one point was gospel some time back. Yes, you are right about Doc Sartin getting some of the games best minds of the time together. Wasn't Brohamer, Quirin, Quinn and several others not mentioned Sartin Devotees either at one time or another? Didn't they supposedly start out as the original contributors/developers of what has become known to be the Sartin Methodology? Very Interesting stuff Topcat.

I appreciate the information.

[John]

What ever happen to Steve Wolson, of " Power line" fame....

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by JimG
Shane:

How about the rest of you lurkers??? 330 views and only 5 replies? I know some of you are using commerical programs!! What are you using and your likes/dislikes with them?

Jim

Most of my experience with commercial handicapping software has been with Howard Sartin's stuff (Energy mostly), along with Purdy's Synergism, and my own Basic programs and spreadsheets.

Energy gave a nice picture of the race, I had good success with it. For a period of time, I hand crafted varients for my circuit, then adjusted the lines before entering them, giving me an extra level of confidence.

When I decided the time involved to make really good varients wasn't feasable, I wrote a QBasic program (the peak of my programming ability) to extract a DV from the Beyer number and return a Quirin-style 1 length/point varient, which I could then use to adjust lines.

All of that was back in the late 80's/early 90's. After some time away, I've recently lightened Dave's inventory at the HSH warehouse. I'm still in the "what does this button do" stage, but initial indications are quite good.

Paul

[JimG]

Hi Paul,


Thanks for posting. I have some experience with HSH, so if you have any questions just ask on the HSH board.

Do you use Synergism VI, by Bob Purdy? If so, what are your thoughts on it?


Jim

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Topcat


Unfortutnaley he now rails against most of these same handicapppers. Even writing this i run the risk of incurring Sartinites rath.

TC

Blasphemy!!!
:)

The Sartin seminars did have a certain evangelistic feel, very much an "Us vs Them" atmosphere, Them being the "conventional" handicapping community.

Personally, I didn't really care if he made truck drivers winners or not. I assumed that no matter how sincere he may or may not have been, selling the software was the goal. I was ok with that, as long as I benefitted as well. I gravitated away when the seminars became repetitive, geared more to new users than advancing any ideas.

Despite all the sad revelations, I don't regret any of the time or money I spent. I learned a lot in those days, not the least of which was being aware of what the act of betting does to your head.

I haven't seen any of their software since K-Gen. Didn't they release one called "Entropy", or something like that?

Paul

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by JimG
Hi Paul,

Thanks for posting. I have some experience with HSH, so if you have any questions just ask on the HSH board.

Do you use Synergism VI, by Bob Purdy? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

Jim

Hey Jim, thanks, you'll be hearing from me over there.

I haven't used Synergism since III I believe. I looked at VI, and it looks great, but it seems you'd derive the greatest benefit by handicapping every day so that your model is tight. I'm not able to do that right now.

[Lefty]

Doc Sartin tells the story about betting every horse in the race to boost the confidence of a young handicapper himself; so it's no big secret.
And he says, and I believe him, the bankruptcy was a ploy cause his once good friend Pizzolla was suing him over the right to the book "Pace Makes The Race. The suit was filed in a New York court where Pizzolla was a member of the bar. Doc says he had neither the energy or the money to fight the suit.
He rails agains some of the former devotees that have "screwed" him but never once have I seen in print or heard him "rail" against Brohamer or Bradshaw.
BTW, Doc's pretty sick now but as far as I'm concerned he is a Doc and it matters not where his diploma came from.
Have you ever read his Psychology articles? If he's not a Doc then I don't know my Mother from a horse.
I learned a lot from the Doc and he's always been nice as hell to me.

[Topcat]

Originally posted by Lefty

BTW, Doc's pretty sick now but as far as I'm concerned he is a Doc and it matters not where his diploma came from.
Have you ever read his Psychology articles? If he's not a Doc then I don't know my Mother from a horse.
I learned a lot from the Doc and he's always been nice as hell to me.

Lefty,


BTW: I have read his psychology articles and have his book/booklet he wrote on the psychology of winning.

Now don't take this as a commentary on your mother but as someone
who had a double major in psychology I can assure you that even if he was a
“Doc” it sure wasn’t in psychology.

Barry Meadow did an investigative piece on Howard Sartin and interviewed a number of clients and former associates-Meadow revealed, “the bet every horse ploy” and after that Howard “adjusted” his story. Meadow couldn’t find any record of Sartin getting a degree at any university nor is he licensed to practice in the state. Sartin won’t say where he got his degree. If I remember right I believe Meadow actually found the mail order firm that sent Sartin one.

If you’re upset at what I posted you’d be devastated at Meadows article-e.g. It doesn’t look like there was there was any original truck drivers group that started off PIRCO. Former “clients” and known names speaking about Sartin-none too flattering-I think Brohammer was relatively kind by not saying too much. Meadow offered to let Sartin get his two cents worth in the article, originally agreed, but after driving to his home Sartin wouldn’t come outside and talk to him.

Much of this I had already known and I prefer to think of Sartin as a Doc in the same sense as Sanders was a Colonel. The academic credentials actually are meaningless to me I wasn’t impressed by it to start with but he must have felt it necessary to establish credibility and knew that some would never question him after that. The degree itself is meaningless, e.g. Gates didn’t have degree (OK he started getting honorary degrees when he got rich) The dishonesty is what bothers me.

As far as using bankruptcy as a ploy-if you believe that-well that has legal ramifications. . You have to declare your assets/liabilities in a court of law-you can’t undo it-creditors are not paid etc etc. so either he’s lying to the court and hiding assets which can get him jail time or he’s “kidding” you about that. That’s about as kind as I can say it.

I do think he added value by gathering a talented group and bringing focus. I did appreciate the fact that he thanked and credited Huey Mahl before his death (Mahl started the ball rolling for Sartin through the old Systems and Methods Gambler’s Book Club Magazine and later Mahl’s Frontline newsletter-Phillips Racing Newsletter was the other catalyst for Sartin-) I think Howard Sartin could have been more successful if he had just been honest. He was not a man without talent. He could make peopel belive the most outlandihs things without ever checking them themselves. The one that got me thinking was his APV as a percentage of purse claims. A simple example: ealrly on he cited in print some facts that said the top 4 would account for x% of winners. When I checked it against a large database it wasn't even close. Yet i heard people later citing that as handicapping gospel-unitl it was refuted multiple times. To this day i bet there are people locked into that.

Didn’t you ever wonder why he never played any serious money on the races himself?-It wasn’t about a vow of poverty what with selling his software and seminars. Did you ever go out to his house-prior to bankruptcy-if he was in desperate need for money why didn’t he use the Rosetta Stone of Sartin handicapping to generate some?

Lefty, I don’t mean to upset you and I appreciate your standing up for someone who was nice to you and I am genuinely sorry to hear that Howard is ill

TC

[Lefty]

Yeah, the Meadows hit piece made me sick. Doc mentioned Huey and Taulbot and even Sam Sedgewick quite a lot in the Follow UP.
I think it was outlandish for Pizzolla to sue Doc over the book in first place. Pizzolla only had one chapter in it. No, I don't know the whole story and Doc was as guilty as anyone of Hyperbole but I learned from him as did others who took some of his concepts without crediting him.
The need to lead horse, first read about it in Doc's Follow Up same for the Tandem concept, and the place horse ain't necessarily your 2nd best win horse.
Ken Massa's HTR sprang from Modern Pace Handicapping by Brohamer who got the fps concept from the Doc.
The Doc contributed a lot to handicapping and that's how I feel.
I know you're not out to make me mad, nor I you, we're exchanging thoughts.

[Topcat]

Well let me say that I don't know the whole story either.

I've got to give him his due: There are many people who say he's helped them be better handicppers by getting them to believe in themsleves-. Brohammer is one.

And as you pointed out he gathered concepts and information in way that hadn't been done before.

[Dick Schmidt]

Dear Guys,

I do know the whole story and was on the inside for a long time. I believe it serves little purpose at this late date to rehash the past or trash an old, sick man. I'll just say that most of what has been posted in this thread, both positive and negative, is accurate. The real lesson we can all take away from PIRCO is "Never let anyone else do your thinking for you!"

Dick

P.S. The truck drivers did exist, I met a couple of them.

[Vinnie]

Hey Guys,

I just want to go on record and say that I feel horrible about the "Doc's" health not being so good. I also have to give the man his due because he taught me a great deal about energy distribution, velocity ratings (measuring horses speed in FPS), etc.. I will always remember, and he has said it in more than one of the Follow Ups that "stand at the finish line in a race and as the horses cross the wire, blink and note how many have already passed by"! Something to that effect anyway. This only reminds me of how intricate the entire scheme of a race is, and how any of a million different things can have either positive or negative effects on the probable outcome, depending on your view of course.

Thanks for the great information you guys! (TopCat, Lefty and Dick!)

[Vinnie]

TopCat and Lefty,

Did you guys ever use the Sartin Synthesis Program? It had a ton of cool graphs, and a lot of neat information in there, and although I could go on streaks on occasion, I could never get a really decent procedure down with it to turn any sort of consistent profit. Honestly, and I still have the printout that baby picked the Top four finishers (TOP 5) if you switch the order of the last two in the 2000 KY Derby. I was shocked with such a Huge field running, but, it actually got it in order.

Just curious to hear what you guys thought of the program if you had used it?

[Lefty]

Vinnie, I have Synthesis and my experience about the same as yours. Also I hated the oddsline, too many overlays.
Blve it or not I did better with the old K-Gen than any of them but unfortunately, that one was never downloadable.
And Doc's prgms still in Dos.

[anotherdave]

Originally posted by Lefty
Vinnie, I have Synthesis and my experience about the same as yours. Also I hated the oddsline, too many overlays.


Too many overlays - Just curious - is Synthesis the one with the "non-linear" odds line where he would have odds on 3 or 4 horses under 2-1? I almost bought it until I saw the printout they used in the brochure with that.

AD

[Vinnie]

Hello Lefty and AnotherDave,

Yes, I really liked the program (although in DOS) because it had a ton of graphs that showed Entropy, energy distribution and that Bottom Line Betting Line (the B/L, B/L) that I believe that you are talking about Lefty. I just didn't or don't like the fact that if you are in some sort of funk (even if it is short lived) they will always tell you that you more than likely aren't probably chosing the appropriate paceline, etc.. That kind of gripes me. Other than that, I was never around before that when they had the what did you call it the "K Gen"? What was that program all about Lefty? Did it analyze some factors of pace at a certain level?

AnotherDave, you are correct, Synthesis did employ a very unusual "non-linear" oddsline in the program.

[wes]

No one mentioned the program Horse's N Course's. It was a good program and would still be good if I would take the time to type in all the data. It was based on acceleration and deceleration .

The actual principles on which horse's N corse's operate are proprietary and will not be discussed. But I will tell you that Acceleration and deceleration plays a large part. Speed and time are not particularly important factors in this software, bear this in mind when inputing a race. The system is based on CHAOS THEORY and artificial intelligence.

I think I purchased the programs in 1990 or 1991 but they will still work using windows home XP and the programs were 2000 ready.


wes

[JimG]

Even if I did start this thread, it has been a really enjoyable read<g>. I think the responses have been real interesting. One thing I note is very few of the BRIS programs have been mentioned. With All-Ways, Plus V, Capsheet, Neurax Pro, Multicaps, and Common Ground to choose from, I am surprised more do not have experience with these. Capsheet is my personal fav from this bunch although I think All-Ways is good too.

It is nice to have as many good programs to choose from as we do. If I am to try and handicap more than 1 or 2 tracks, a computer is necessary to organize info and get down to contenders. Also, HTR and HSH have a loyal following and are supported superbly by Dave Schwartz (HSH) and Ken Massa (HTR).

HTRF and Equisim ROI seem to be solid programs at an excellent price.

I appreciate all the responses to this thread and have learned about a few programs I did not realize existed.

Jim

PS: Is it just me or does it seem like we have recently gained a number of new and very knowledgeable horseplayers to the board in the last 2-3 weeks?? Makes it fun to check for new notes.

[Lefty]

Hard to explain K-Gen(memory fading) but it had lots of nice graphs and like Thoromation,. made its own adjustments from the horses in race that you deemed as contenders. I dis pretty well with it for quite a while then it was on to TPR, the Pace launchers 1-2-3, then Synthesis the Validator 1, and 2 and that's where it stands.

[John]

WES wrote:
No one mentioned the program Horse's N Course's. It was a good program and would still be good if I would take the time to type in all the data. It was based on acceleration and deceleration .

What is " Acceleration" and "deceleration" Please explain.

I never heard that before...

[Tom]

K-gen was one of my all time favorites - it was a great program in that I seemed to understand what it was doing. I would put in several pacelines for every hore in the race, then use the top 3 early and top 3 late horses (Although usually this was not 6 horses-typically 4-5). The graphs were the neat part-you could look at several lines for the same horse and see what a typical racelooked like, then not use the oddball race. I still use it on the big races, like the Derby, B-Cup, etc. When you have horses with lines over many tracks and distances, K-Gen can clarify the picture. Problem is it is manual entry, and after getting spoiled with MPH and HTR, I could never use K-Gen on as many races
as I can do nowadays. But the big races are the fun ones, so the time is worth it.

Tom

[Tom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dick Schmidt
[B]Dear Guys,

I do know the whole story and was on the inside for a long time. I believe it serves little purpose at this late date to rehash the past or trash an old, sick man. I'll just say that most of what has been posted in this thread, both positive and negative, is accurate. The real lesson we can all take away from PIRCO is "Never let anyone else do your thinking for you!"

Dick

Amen to that. Everything I learned from the Doc and Pirco was how to use what was inside of me. It wasn't about the messenger, it was about the message. And whether the stories were all true or not didn't matter. I would come home from the annual Saratoga seminars fully recharged and ready to go. Whether I got medicine or a placebo, I learned every year and built on it the next year. The big thing for was not learning how to handicap, but learning how to handle the game mentally. I did a lot of tings theat Howard advised against (I used my own variants in Energy! And I put my tape recorder on a table in the Thoromation room and slipped next door to listen to Dick and Tom Brohamer do it the "old way".
Just on this board alone, we see posts by people praising program X and others condeming it! Is it the program or the people?
To each his own.

Tom :eek:

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom & Dick,

I agree with you guys completely!

I could take issue with some of the things Howard has done. And guess what? I could take issue with some of the things I've done in MY life as well! So, I'll be the first to admit that we aren't perfect.

But the bottom line is that I began winning in 1987 - after 9 years of failure - was it a coincidence that I ran into PIRCO the month before I began winning? Nope.

Howard had a lot of innovative ideas... that's why they worked.

I think my biggest criticism of Howard would be his resistence to sharing the glory. He had some really great people that went on to become stars in their own right. That could have been different.

Okay, the no-doctor thing could be called a character issue but... we didn't need him to be president (a position where we ALWAYS demand high character <G>), neither did we need to trust him as we would a REAL doctor... we just needed him to come up with good ideas. He did that.

Do I think he is deserving to be called a hero? No. But then, generally our heroes turn out to have clay feet anyway.

Just my opinion.


Dave

[Topcat]

I am fact based when it come to discening what works and what doesn't. That's why it is important to me if someone was fabricating their story and their results. It has a bearing on the message and whethe the concepts work. The reason Sartin's crediiblity is pertinent is that the software programs are still being marketed and sold today. Just look at some of the earlier post asking about them. To that point here's an excerpt from Sartin's page:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't be satisfied with low-priced winners dominating cards at most tracks. Join those profiting from double digit mutuals selected through highly advanced but easy to use computer programs of TODAY'S SARTIN METHODOLOGY. Includes a BETTING LINE pinpointing longer priced horses for greater profit."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps I am I am not saying it eloquently enough if the point is missed and some think it is "trashing an old sick man". That, BTW, was the defense arguement/defelction that was put forward for John Demjanjuk, the 81-year old Ukrainian immigrant said by the US government to have served as a Nazi death camp guard. He was convicted of torturing inmates to death. Now please, please do NOT reply back and say how dare I compare Howard to a Nazi- I am, feebly perhaps, trying to illustrate a point of logic-

Maybe I am being a bit hard on him but there were people on a very limited income who were burned by Sartin. They went out and bought a computer and sunk what for them was a lot of money into Sartin's programs based on the claims and his "credibility" as a Doc. Of course, you can say they had no business buying any computers or programs but in the very early days he talked aobut his approach as being a good way to supplement retirement income. So while he may have been seen as very benign character by some of you- there were senior citizens who would not see it that way.

My experience? Well it was pretty neutral I may have had earlier contact with Sartin than most on this board-i want to say it was 1979-80-but i'll lhave to go back and check my records. I had the paper and pencil method and later the first program that was ever released by Sartin-it was in Basic and it ran on old Texas Instruments computer, You key punched everything in of course-later I got the first manual-what a creative mess that was-still have it somewhere. I have a couple of their programs since then-they were OK but I was doing fine without them so I didn't see them as the tool that some did. Before I met Sartin I had the advantage of already having "studied" with Huey Mahl.

I asked one of the two name handicappers that Sartin still speaks highly of (it is not Dick Schmidt nor Hambleton) if he could recommend any of the new programs and he could not.

At the time I thought that most of the new ideas or refinelements were really coming from Borhammer, Hambleton, Schmidt, Pizzola and Bradshaw. I'll have to go back and rethink that if Dave thinks that Howard was actually the orignator.

What I don't have to go back and rethink is if integrity is important. I am not perfect-no way but I am not going to try and sell you something based on false credentials or claims. The distinction we seem to lose is deception as a matter of policy versus a mistake or temporary falibility. It is adangerous distinction to lose

Let me just go bak to my ealier analogy that at best Howard was more like the character in the movie 101 trombones that got everybody to believe in themselves.

At worst-...oh no , oh no I've learned my lesson- the wrath of Khan can't compare to the wrath of Sartinites. <G>

TC

[Vinnie]

TopCat,

Your post was very eloquent and I think that you said it best when you brought up the point about his credibility as a "Doc" in that it would bring a great many people into believing in things that well, maybe they wouldn't or shouldn't ordinarily. To sell anything software or otherwise under the guise or false pretense that it will be "a world beater" is wrong for anyone to do. The point is, if someone's credibility is at question concerning invariably many issues, it only makes one have to work that much harder to discover what the truth is exactly. I think that your explanation of Howard Sartin hit the nail right on the head. If there is one thing that he was ever totally capable of doing it was to "get you motivated and revved up, to keep your focus, and go out and attack the oval with a vengeance". Over the past few years I have spoken to both Howard and his partner Aline Best and they have always gone out of their way to be very nice and helpful about anything that I had brought up in conversation.

The "Doc" has contributed to handicapping in many ways, and I personally wish him well.

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

Originally posted by rocajack
What is " Acceleration" and "deceleration" Please explain.



Acceleration & deceleration were never really explained to me when I was using Stealth (which I believe is a later incarnation of Horses N Courses) - the Winner's Circle group and John Rancont were always very secretive about the proprietary nature of these figures.

But for me - they seemed to work much like speed & pace figures - the acceleration number functioned as a pace fig and the decel # as a speed or final time figure in my mindset. They may be calculated very differently from traditional speed and pace figs, but from an end user standpoint they seemed to function the same to me.

It's a good program - I just never got as many plays as I liked, I was able to show a profit after a while if I was *ULTRA* selective (I'd make about 3 plays for every 5 cards I worked). Stopped using it a little over 2 years ago - mostly due to lack of time to spend handicapping and betting (and getting tired of pissing away my win bet profits in the exotics as I'd get bored between plays).

I've finally got the time now - but I've decided to give Dave's HSH program a whirl - just strikes me as being more flexible and fun than Stealth is (Stealth is a pretty rigid black box). Though I do know folks who make money with Stealth - they swear by those mysterious accel & decel numbers.

[John]

Mike,

Thanks ,It still is all Greek to me. All I know is if I step on the gas pedal my car will accelerate. If I take my foot off the gas pedal my car will Decelerate. I don't think Horses do that .

John Rancont is he still around . I Know a Guy that got on a plane to go to Las Vegas to confront Rancont after some nasty Phone conversations. when he got to the Hotel in Las vegas. Rancont had left town. Is winner circle Group still active.

Accel and Decl numbers ,very interesting

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

John passed away in 1998 or 1999 - heart attack.

As far as I know the group is still active - but I haven't been in touch with anyone from there in over a year. I stayed in for about a year after John died - for all his faults, the man was a helluva programmer and losing all the tweaks and such he would add to the program continuously made it far less interesting for me.

[tboles]

I used Horses-n-Courses myself. Still have an old copy laying around. The program worked however I lost interest in the program due to the time it took to input the info.

John was a grump at times. He always asked high dollar for his upgrades.

[Dick Schmidt]

Topcat,

"I asked one of the two name handicappers that Sartin still speaks highly of (it is not Dick Schmidt nor Hambleton) if he could recommend any of the new programs and he could not. "

Boy, you got that right! He hasn't spoken highly of me, Tom (or Mike P) for several years; not since we started having our own oppinions.

I must say, your post gave me pause. I think you are absolutely right and that the truth should "be out there." I assumed that he was more or less out of business; his son couldn't handicap a race after it was run, but I guess they still pull in some folks.

I was constantly squabbling with Howard about making things clearer. I spent a lot of time cleaning up what he wrote and making it consistent with what he said in the past. I re-wrote his original manual twice, but he refused to release it. One night he got drunk (he did that a lot) and got pissed at me. He told me flat out to my face that to preserve his income, he needed to keep his clients confused. That the financial health of PIRCO (including my salary as editor and producer of The Follow Up) completely depended on it. His final statement before he staggered off into the night was: If they ever figure it all out, we're out of business.

Three weeks later I quit.

Dick

P.S. I'm always surprised that no one realizes that ALL the programs sold after Energy have the same internal structure and code (I translated some of them to other computers). They added some graphs and charts, but all of them were based on Energy, which at the core was a rework of Ultra Scan, one of the most bizarre programs ever written. Take a percentage comparing how fast the horse ran compared to the winner of the race, add it to a feet-per-second velocity rating and divide by two! He fooled a lot of people most of the time, including me. Caveat Emptor.

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Dick, thanks for clearing all that up. I'm not ashamed to admit that, at the time, I drank my share of the Kool-Aid. In my defense, it was hard not to with the cast of players taking turns at the podium, lending a huge dose of legitimacy to the enterprise.

Hell, I even attended a Bert Mayne Silva mind control course (big gulp of Kool-Aid:). One thing about that session that sticks out was a young guy who's name has long escaped me saying over and over that he was hitting over 60% in Southern CA just betting the top two K-Gen early/lates off the last line. I later wondered if he was a plant.

Although, I must say I balked some when Jim Bradshaw would step up time after time and proclaim that he regularly got 7-9 winners playing one horse. I listened to someone ask Brohamer about that claim; Tom would only say that Jimmy "bet a lot of chalk".

Ah well, I was in my 20's, young and dumb. Now I'm old and cynical, hopefully that will serve me better...

Paul

[smf]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarylandPaul
[B] Now I'm old and cynical, hopefully that will serve me better...



That it does, Paul. That it does.

Unbelieveable what people say and do to sell something to make a buck. How some of the sellers in this game can look at themselves in the mirror every morning is beyond me.

[Lefty]

Rocajack, horses do accelerate and decelerate. Break down ea. quarter of a race and you'll find 1st one fastest with ea. succeeding one a bit slower. Horses speed out of gate and as they lose energy they slow, that's all.
Once again, Sartin 1st place I ever heard about deceleration.

[Myhorse1_X]

If anyone wishes to know, Jim Bradshaw is alive and well. He had Cancer but had part of his lung removed and seems to have recovered from it.
I see Jim at the OTB all the time with his wife and "Charlie", his friend. Jim is a nice guy, a lot nicer since he got rid of Sartain. He has his own program called A-Odds, which I understand picks quite a few winners.
His wife uses A-Odds, and Jim as always, uses the racing form. I think highly of Jim, and always will. I also think highly of Dick Schmidt. (Hope you are reading this, Dick). I know Bob Purdy went out on his own and has his own program now.
Dick, you are quite right about Sartain, "Keep them confused". I heard it with my own ears, and that was the last seminar I went to.
In case anyone asks, I use my own program DynaForm2000, rated an "8" by the Phillips News letter, but let's not get into who thinks what on Phillips again.

MyHorse1

[Vinnie]

Dick, and all others;

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I have learned so much from you guys and I appreciate it "Big Time"! I don't wish to continue onward with the bashing of Howard Sartin, but, honestly, before I read some of these posts from some people (like Dick) who actually knew and or worked with Howard, I truly had no idea how far and to what extent this allusion went back. Admittedly, I blindly dove in head first some time ago when I purchased Synthesis as a "Sartin Client",but, I didn't have a clue that there was so much deception behind the myriad of "Doc Sartins" programs. I just get excited about checking this board when I have the chance because for me the learning curve is an ongoing process.

I continue to be enlightened!

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Myhorse1
If anyone wishes to know, Jim Bradshaw is alive and well.......

I am glad to hear that. Jim always seemed a decent guy...

In case anyone asks, I use my own program DynaForm2000, rated an "8" by the Phillips News letter, but let's not get into who thinks what on Phillips again.
MyHorse1
Is that counting your return policy?? :D

Paul

[Myhorse1_X]

If you read my webside you would know.

MyHorse1

http://www.myhorse1.com

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Myhorse1
If you read my webside you would know.

MyHorse1

http://www.myhorse1.com

Forgive me MyHorse, that wasn't intended as a cheap shot. During the brief period that I subscribed to Phillips, I was left chuckling that their reviews would often read something like "we'll give it a 7, plus 1 for good customer service, and 1 for the nice return policy, for a rating of 9" Made it difficult to use the ratings to evaluate a product.

I do understand that there's not a lot of press out there reviewing handicapping software. In your shoes, I'd use any positive reviews as well.

I sincerely wish you well with DynaForm2000...

Paul

Paul

[Myhorse1_X]

No offense taken.

If you wish to read the review, it is on my website. It was 3 pages long on the Phillips letter, so I took the important facts concerning Win % and ROI and put them on my website. They subtracted 1/2 point because I had a 10% restocking charge, so I changed the restocking charge and took the 8 rating. Out of all that I have sold, I have had only one person want their money back so I guess I have a lot of satisfied customers out there. I really didn't want to sell the program, but I had invested so much money that I was trying to get some of it back. I am still about $5000 in the hole so far from my original investment. After the review sales, I am not going to sell any more mainly because I am spending too much time selling, and not enough time doing what I really want to do---go to the OTB at least 3 days a week and spend time with my grandchildren.

MyHorse1

[Dick Schmidt]

Myhorse,

Next time you see Jimmie, tell him Bob Purdy and I said "HI" and give him our best. Glad he's still hanging in there.

Dick

[Jaguar]

I am an old computer handicapper and have owned many expensive and inexpensive programs for horses over the years.

The only effective program I have ever owned was Thorobrain.

Unfortunately, I was never able to figure out how to use it and turned that task over to a friend who is more knowledgeable about computers than I am. He made a ton of money with it.

I was briefly a Beta tester for All-Ways, but never cared for the program because it was too awkward and time-consuming to make models with it and there were just too many screens.

All-Ways may have since been made more integrated and rational in recent years, but I have not seen it and cannot comment on it.

My 2 biggest disappointments in the world of handicapping were Multistrats and Racecom's Analog 2.0.

Had Exco continued in business, Dr. Sengbush's planned upgrade of Multistrats would have been the greatest breakthrough in history for horse handicappers. The Multistrats concept was sensational, a truly fast and well organized comprehensive program.

Racecom's Analog 2.0 was the greatest bomb in history, and a very expensive debacle for people like me who bought it.

Racecom has since produced an absolutely scintillating upgrade in Analog 5.0. Unfortunately, the cost of using the program is prohibitive.

There are 5 brilliant men working in handicapping software development in America: Ron Hall, David Schwartz, Dr. Sengbush, and Joseph and David Shepard.

I have always said that if anyone beats the races it will be Joseph and David Shepard Shepard. They understand the handicapper's need for speed and ease-of-use.

Let's face it, the serious handicapper needs a comprehensive program with at least 55 strategies and impact values built in(in other words, no need for models) which is "one primary screen"
friendly and easy to use.

David Schwartz is without question the foremost "out of the Box", "let's make money today" handicapper in the country, but you have to be a programmer to use his programs.

Henry Robbins,

Connecticut Yankee Handicapper

[JustRalph]

Windows Xp has what is called compatibility mode. Copy the program to the system or install it. Then before running the exe make a shortcut to it on the desktop and right click on the shortcut and choose "properties". There is a compatibility mode tab that you can play with to try and make it run. Try different combinations. They range from color settings to memory allocation and more. You can also use comp. mode on programs that won't install. Just right click on the installer or setup program and choose comp. mode (just like above) and try to install it. More info at this link:

http://search.support.microsoft.com/search/viewDoc.aspx?docID=KC.Q292533&url=kb;en-us;Q292533&dialogID=17170305&iterationID=1&sessionID=anonymous|15961922

[Slider]

Originally posted by Jaguar

Let's face it, the serious handicapper needs a comprehensive program with at least 55 strategies and impact values built in(in other words, no need for models) which is "one primary screen"
friendly and easy to use.

David Schwartz is without question the foremost "out of the Box", "let's make money today" handicapper in the country, but you have to be a programmer to use his programs.

Henry Robbins,

Connecticut Yankee Handicapper [/B]

Henry: By any chance do you have the 55 strategies and impact values referred to above?
Sorry, but as a user of Dave Schwartz's HSH program, I must disagree with your programmer statement. The program is Hugh with something for everybody. But, you do not need to use the whole program. I like the A.I. (ants) part of the program. It is similar to the Thorobrain you spoke of. I find it is simple to use.

Slider

[Dick Schmidt]

There are 5 brilliant men working in handicapping software development in America: Ron Hall, David Schwartz, Dr. Sengbush, and Joseph and David Shepard.



I thought I knew most of the serious people producing software, but this list stumped me. Schwartz I know, but I've never heard of the others. To quote Butch Cassidy, Who are these guys???

Could you be so kind as to provide some additional information, websites, book titles, software titles etc for them? Thank you.

Dick

[John]

Dick,,
I think David and Joseph Shepard are from Canada or England.

Maybe spme other member can verify

[Lefty]

Well, let me tell you, and so will Slider and Dave, I am the FURTHEST from being a Programmer than anyone in the world. Yet, I use HSH. I like the Race Reports and Pickmaster.

[GameTheory]

I am also curious about that list.

What was Dr. Sengbush's planned upgrade that was going to be such a breakthrough? And how do you know since he apparently never did it?

[jandrus]

he ws going to upgrade multi stats. then he took the menbers money for upgrades and left .

[wes]

At fifty bucks per user that was not much money. Unless many bought into his stock scheme. Another thing I think he got into it over his head with what he wanted to include with the program. I
never thought the program was much better than any of the other program on the market. His thoughts were good but they still did not work for me.

I think someone is posting here on the board that had close connections with him or the program.

wes

[Tom]

Originally posted by jandrus
he ws going to upgrade multi stats. then he took the menbers money for upgrades and left .


So it seems he did have a program that showed a positive ROI!
At least for him ~G~

[Fred]

I have been using Capsheet since ver 3.1(94/95 not sure)
I use it in conjuction with ultimate pp from bris. I now live in Knoxville and there are no tracks or betting outlets in the state of Tennessee so I do not play as much as I used to. I am currently participating in the Bris challenge handicapping contest using capsheet. Capsheet 4.0 will be out soon and it is stand alone program.

Fred

[JimG]

Originally posted by Fred
I have been using Capsheet since ver 3.1(94/95 not sure)
I use it in conjuction with ultimate pp from bris. I now live in Knoxville and there are no tracks or betting outlets in the state of Tennessee so I do not play as much as I used to. I am currently participating in the Bris challenge handicapping contest using capsheet. Capsheet 4.0 will be out soon and it is stand alone program.

Fred

Wow...I've never met anyone online that uses Capsheet other than me. I'm supposed to beta test 4.0 when it comes out. Not sure I like the standalone part....I like using the same file as All-Ways or Plus V. Get 2 programs for one datafile and I use Plus V for turf.

Jim

[Fred]

Hi Jim:
I am considering all ways in addition to capsheet. I know you use both and I would appreciate your feedback on using two programs. I am concerned I may gravitate to the analysis to paralysis state of mind like I do at work sometimes. If I have one watch I am confident of the time,but if I have two I am not sure. Please share your thoughts.

Fred

[JimG]

Fred:

I use Capsheet for dirt races and either PlusV or All-ways for the turf. I find Capsheet oddsline as good as there is for dirt races. Caught many overlays over the years. As for turf, I have an impact value set up for Plus V or All-Ways that I use for the turf. Been using for about 5 years and have not had to tweak. Works pretty well for me on all turf courses.

Jim

PS: As I said in my e-mail if Capsheet 4 does not support the allways or Plus V datafile, I will stick with 3.9

[Jaguar]

At the risk of answering your question reduntantly, MultiStrats began in the 70's as the collective effort of several computer science undergrads at a college in Ohio.

While produced intially for their own need to earn a few dollars from the track, following graduation a couple of the guys decided to do a little more research on handicapping and to produce a more reliable method.

These men took 5 of the strategies touted by system-sellers of the day and used them as the criteria for predicting the outcome of horse races- at a time when Huey Mahl's book, "The Race Is Pace", was shaking up the handicapping world.

After a couple of years, the neophyte handicappers expanded their research to include 10 more strategies for evaluating horses.

Their first serious handicapping disc used 15 proven algorithms for screening horses. By 1988, Exco-the corporate name for "Banana Software"- had revised and expanded the program to where 25 strategies were used.

The program's sprint strategies were excellent, but the model-making utility was defective because Multistrats aggregated too many disparate types of races under too broad a label.

Nonetheless, the strategies were at times extremely powerful- to wit: the program recognized and highlighted dominant trends at a given track.

For example, I made nice money at Monmouth in 6-furlong allowance sprints, because Multistrats told me that 82% of those races were won by the horse which led at the second call.

Multistrats was expert at finding those mid-pace leaders which would go on to win.

The program was scheduled for a major upgrade to over 50 strategies, with an enhanced model-making feature. Exco hired a
scientist, Dr. Sengbush, who had done mathematical work for NASA during the "Space Race" years, and Sengbush diagrammed the changes and improvements planned for Multistrats.

Sadly, while Exco had been commercially viable for a number of years, they collapsed financially and absconded with customers upgrade deposits.

This resulted in the Attorney General of the State of Ohio going after them, and Exco disappeared in the midst of great acrimony.
Some individuals wanted to hunt them down and exact revenge.




Had Exco remained honest, and in business, the planned upgrade of Multistrats would have been a bombshell.

Instead, we all ran out and bought the brilliant Thorobrain, which was ahead of it's time and unparalled in it's model-making efficacy
and predictive power.

Unfortunately, there's a broken heart for every light on broadway and a big group of frustrated Multistrats users, who saw the lightning and heard the thunder- but never found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Oh, to think what might have been....

As Dorothy might have said, "Oh, Auntie Em- I was in a wonderful place. It couldn't have been a dream, it all seemed so real."

Dorothy, it was real- at least for a while- until the mid 90's.

Jaguar

[John]

Jaguar,

Nice story. You should write a book.

So why not is the original Multistrats still as powerful as it was back then.

Rocajack

[Jaguar]

Please note that the Exco principals stole the upgrade deposits,
between $100-$200 per customer.

The tremendous enthusiasm of the Multistrats fanatics of the day was sparked by the enormous amount of work Dr. Sengbush did in preparing the planned upgrade.

Dr. Sengbush worked for the better part of a year- as I understand it- researching the additional 25(or so) algorithms to be blended into the improved program. Not to mention the additional material which was to be used to enhance the program's model making capability, i. e., workout ratings, form cycles, jockey-trainer stats, etc.

Exco mailed their customers a large and very detailed report showing the work Dr. Sengbush was involved in to formulate the Multistrats upgrade. His work was thorough and focused.

To put Multistrats in perspective, it has to be said that the program contained brilliant core elements, but was an overall failure.

Multistrats showed so much promise, and was such an innovative program, particularly in it's sophisticated sprint rating feature, and in it's model making.

The collapse of Exco and the fact that Multistrats was never upgraded according to Dr. Sengbush's innovative plan, was a heart-breaker for many handicappers in 1991-1992.

Ironically, many current handicapping programs would be significantly enhanced in their power and accuracy by the addition of many of the 25 algorithms used by Multistrats in 1988.

For one thing, Multistrats sprint utility was a very flexible, accurate, and easy-to-use feature.

Sadly, Multistrats is a DOS program.

By the way, a friend told me that Dr. Sengbush was working on another handicapping project last year. He has not been talked about in handicapping circles for quite a while.

As science progresses we see our favorite old handicapping programs fading into the mists of a vanished era. A time when handicappers used sensational new methods to solve the mysteries of this world's most fascinating game.

Today we have talented scientists, such as David Schwartz, producing fabulously powerful and ingeniously conceived programs on the order of Thorobrain, HorseSense, Joe Zambuto's program, and All-Ways.

These programs pick winners and find key horses to bet in the exotics. In short, we can make money with them.

Years ago, the handicapper lacked such marvelous tools, and as much as I admired some of the old programs(wasn't Capsheet great on the Turf?), I wouldn't care to go back to that time.

Thank Heaven for modern horse handicapping methods, and thank Heaven for the wonderful memories of the winning horses picked and for the tickets we cashed, using those awkward, inadequate, and clunky old programs.

Jaguar

[John]

Jaguar,

You make it sound like Handicapping software has come a long way. I am not certain about that. All the programs I have seen and worked will come up with 30-35 winners and most are favotites.Some of my paper and pencil methods are still produceing better price winners than most software.

Good luck to you and the Dr. where ever he is.

[Jaguar]

Rocajack, years ago- that is in the "Before Thorobrain" era- we couldn't make really first class models.

David Schwartz pioneered the use of powerful modeling, and in ensuing years, other talented scientists have made dramatic advances in handicapping technology.

There were no handicapping programs produced 10 years ago that could approach the efficacy of today's best programs.

After all, the goal of most handicappers is to know when and how much to bet, as well as to identify key horses. One of the rewarding aspects of the current programs is that their models tell us when to leave a race alone, a big time and money saver.

Years ago, we "handicapped and hoped". Today we handicap and cash our tickets. -I like today better.

As an aside, I would like everyone to know that it was Curtis Martin, et al, that stole the Multistrats upgrade money. Dr. Sengbush was hired by Martin to revamp Multistrats. The State of Ohio went after Curtis Martin and shut him down(Exco-dba Banana Software- was Martin's company. Dr. Sengbush was a bystander.)

Curtis Martin burned all of us, including Dr. Sengbush.

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

Rocajack, Joseph and David Shepard are computer scientists who own and operate a company called, "RaceCom, Inc., located in Florida.

15 years ago, these men initiated a breakthrough in financial market analysis by producing a computer program which used neural networks. Their products took the investment industry by storm, and a book was written about them.

As we speak, their work continues to be widely imitated.

At the same time(the late 80's) RaceCom created horse handicapping programs which were not very effective.(Curiously, their best program was for harness racing.)

After generating alot of frustration and unhappiness among their handicapping customers, RaceCom issued a revolutionary horse method called "Analog 5.0". This program will be upgraded shortly to "Analog 7.0."

Surprisingly-to their former customers, RaceCom has produced a n astonishingly brilliant handicapping program, which sets a new standard for power and accuracy.

Jaguar

[John]

Jaguar,

I see that Racecom is offering a FREE reports this
Saturday to show off thier new program. That should be
interesting......

Rocajack

[PaceAdvantage]

It's going to be hard to convince me on the rebirth of RaceCom as a successful and honest venture, simply because their reputation precedes them. Unless myself, or someone I know personally tells me otherwise, I just can't believe it....

With that said, if their free report kicks ass this weekend, I guess I reserve the right to change my mind....LOL


==PA

[wes]

It's going to be hard to convince me on the rebirth of RaceCom as a successful and honest venture, simply because their reputation precedes them. Unless myself, or someone I know personally tells me otherwise, I just can't believe it....


If they would shyster you one time they will again if you give them the chance. If their program is so good then why keep writing new ones and giving away the picks?


wes

[John]

PA and wes and Jaguar

You are right I had someone sending me the Racecom picks every day for a month with the exception of Sundays. Then in the middle of the month Racecom said that you should not bet the top rank anymore they have added a speed no. and if the high speed no.is ranked be;ow the the top selection that is your horse to bet . ..how did it do well .I stopped looking at thier picks before this man's time was up .

Ever call Racecom and talk to JOE, He is Mr. No Personality. Always to busy to talk and if you can not pay his asking price Racecom is not for you and he will hang up. I wonder if John Rancourt is his mentor.

I thought I would let JAGUAR carry on a little bit.It was fun and I guess JAGUAR won't answer anymore

Anyway lets see what happens Saturday.

For those who are interested www. Racecom.com

[Jaguar]

Wes, RaceCom- from the inception of their then new program, Analog 5.0- a couple of years ago or so, put race predictions on their site and the results, several days after the races were run.

They did this with some regularity as a promotional ploy. They never gave away picks.

I never paid attention to their website, because I was so mad at them, until a RaceCom user told me about the strength of the new method- and their models.

So, about a year ago, I started tracking their results. Quite a revelation. Wish I could afford their service.

As I stated in an earlier post, If you want to be a RaceCom customer, you have to have thick skin and a fat wallet.

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

Slider, you may find Mike Nunamaker's impressive work, "Impact Values", is just what you are looking for. Nunamaker used a huge database in his research and came up with invaluable information relating to essential handicapping criteria. -Wish we had it years ago.

Nunamaker's book is listed in David Power's excellent catalog.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Myhorse1_X]

Jaguar:

I tried to look up Mike Nunamaker and also David Powell Catalog on the internet to no avail.
I have been looking for that book for a year.


Does David Powell have a website?

MyHorse1

[GameTheory]

Nunamaker's site is:

http://www.minnow.com/

although it hasn't been updated in ages. Maybe he has a newer one?

On the books page it says all the books are out of print. He is providing selections on the Trackmaster site (www.trackmaster.com) now.

Powers' website is:

http://www.handicappingedge.com

Modern Impact Values is listed in their pdf catalog (the first section) for $99, but that is last year's catalog so I don't know if they still have it...

[Jaguar]

Myhorse1, David Powers told me recently that the new catalog will be mailed shortly.

In my experience with publishing outfits, "shortly" means within 90 days.

Maybe if you phoned or E-mailed him, you could get a speedier response.

All the best,

Jaguar

[zieglerjw]

jg: how do/did you like Equisim ROI , and what did you find was the better ways to use the reports ?? I am trying the summary numbers and looking at the (fraction reports .)..when a horse is listed (5) top times , it looks like a good bet !! any thing you can share ??thanks .(jwzieg3@msn.com) in today's first race at Pimlico the (ave pace /speed figs @dist) came in 1-2-3 for a $289 trifecta payoff ....:)

[zieglerjw]

pardon me !! I meant to address Jim G.. (whoops) too many Red Dogs I guess..!!

[alyingthief]

let's cut to the chase:

how many programs can claim a flat bet profit? or even more leniently allowed: how many programs can make a flat bet profit on a consistent basis in any single area of the races, e.g. turf, sprints, etc.?

name ONE.

(and, as an aside, what's most amusing about all this talk of integrity and Sartin's lack thereof, how many program sellers are merely adapting his theories to their own benefit? there's really something mythical about the PIRCO organization; and it's quite intriguing to look at the figures who have developed out of it: since i daren't name names, i won't; but is it merely me, or are these men, these former lieutenants of that sad, old man, tainted themselves with a kind of shysterism that prompts me to check my pants for my wallet whenever i think about em? i recall a brief interchange i had with Mr. MoneySecretsAttheRaceTrack. i was utilizing a Sartin/Purdy program, and nailing Santa Anita for a heady sum of money--one stretch of 21 consecutive winners, a meet of 69% winners at an average mutuel of 16+; and when he inquired after my success, and i reported these statistics, denied their possibility. here's this rolly-polly little man, pomaded hair, spouting blanket statistics like a gospel, for all the world in denial of the facts i presented him. Consider one of his simplistic statistics: the ubiquitous 33% favorites win!, and the improbability of sustaining a win rate/mutuel like that. but the 20-25K claiming bracket at SA winter meet, for instance, is substantially less (do a longitudinal study, and see) than that, a virtual cornucopia of long priced winners year after year, and with a real, well defined profile that makes it a wonderful target for the player. Yet this is the same author of drivel about Sartin, who, in the article (I have it) admits to "not knowing for sure, being unable to find, having no clear cut information on" a large number of issues in question on Sartin's past--and then espousing his statistics with the same apostolic obliviousness i noted in him on personal encounter to further his disbelief of the man. So who is Sartin? I don't know, but the strategies and materials he developed have become the cornerstone of almost all the systems sellers i'm aware of--this i DO know. and none of these systems sellers give the man the due he deserves do they? like the purveying guru of a well known speed figure, who, it appears, owes their development to a friend for the figures he uses: it's not the innovator, but the charismatic thief that we salute. there really is something sickening about men in general, and the closer we get to those preoccuppied with acquiring money without sweating for it, the more sickening they become.)

[cj]

alyingthief,

That's not an aside, it's a term paper!

CJ

[Doug]

TANDA,

WHOLEHEART;Y AGREE WITH YOU ON YOUR ASIDE. YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO SUGAR-COAT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT MEN. MEN PROBABLY ARE SICKENING, BUT YOU TRY DEALING WITH WOMEN FOR A WHILE.

DOUG

[Lefty]

alyingthief, Couldn't agree more. Lottsa prgms using Sartin stuff.
Once there were over 30 prgms using the TPR formula or slight variation of it. Other prgms use parts of Sartin such as Allways and HTR. Hell, most all these progammers owe Sartin Homage.

[cato]

Oh Sartin! What a guy and what an experience to attend a seminar/revival. And I say that in a postive way. About the most excited and enthusiastic I've been about anything other than women is when I was at a Sartin seminar in their prime--with Sartin, Brohamer, Bradshaw, Schmidt, Pizzolla, Purdy, et al. It was handicapping Nirvana.

And Sartin helped a lot of people and was a promoter (if not an originator) of many important ideas. % early, need to lead horse, counter energy, the psychology of winning and betting, etc.

But my expereince was that after the enthusiasm wore off and I got to know the folks involved and the facts of what was going on, is that, in my opinion, most people left the Sartin group becasue they simply could not live with the lack of integrity and any longer. And while many went on to develop programs, I think that's a good thing (a good psychologically healthy and balanced teacher, coach, boss or parent all want success and growth for their students, players, employess and kids to succeed and be independent. And to my knowledge, all of them have given Sartin his due in regard to the teaching and philosophy of handicapping, whch was Sartin's strong point.

They have, likewise, almost universally had the same story about what was going on behind the scenes as related to honesty and integrity. And having heard both sides and looked people in the eye I tend to believe that the people who left the group have the more accurate side of the story.

And so it goes. Sartin did some great things and we are all indebted to him. He also had some very human flaws. We all do. I wish him well and thank him for the exciting times back in the 80s and early 90s.

Take care,

Cato

[Dave Schwartz]

Cato,

You said that very well.

As some one recently said to me, "People you don't like or respect can still have good ideas."

Howard Sartin was an innovator. It was the Methodology's ideas that enabled me to begin winning back in 1987.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[GR1@HTR]

I'm no horse racing historian, but wasn't Huey Maul around before Sartin? If so, Sartin was just a better promoter/evangelist of pace than Maul and we should all be thanking Maul instead.

[Lefty]

Huey worked with Sartin on some of earlier velocity theories and wrote prgms for the old TI programmable calculator. It was my understanding, from Huey and the Doc that Huey willingly gave Doc some ideas and told him to "run with them' Doc has always willingly credited everyone that came before him, Ray Taulbot, Huey etc. Can't say the same for those that took ideas from the Doc.

[Tom]

I give a lot of credit to all the members of PIRCO and the Doc.
They were always willing to help, to answer questions, to share ideas. I learned a lot from that group - including Dick Schmidt!
~G~
Actually, Dick's Follow ups were/are a treasure of information.
The group showed me how to win, from within myself, using numbers and my own mind. For that, I will always be greatful.
I went as far as Thoromation, and I still like it a lot, but manually entering pacelines is not realistic day inday out anymore. I think K Gen is one of the best programs I ever used. I got lost after that - Dick left, the Follow Ups went downhill, and the seminars stopped coming to town. I went back to Phase III (MPH) and Quirin numbers, then HTR. I use Magic sometimes because it is fun. Typically, I use it only at FL becasue it works very well there.
HTR lets me play any time, anywhere. K Gen is for real in-depth 'capping on big races - takes so long to use. After I get my horse from K Gen, I go to any of the other programs and make my selctions. I am investigating EquisimROI and so far, I am really impressed.

[Rexdale You]

To All The contributers to this post,,,I found it to be facinating,,,,and very informative,,,,While i have heard of the the "Doc. and his merry men" The insites were interesting to read,,,,Thanks again for the frankness of your posts,,,,Rex You,,,,:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Myhorse1_X]

All your conversation about Sartain made me look in my bookshelf for the Original publication of "The Match up".
Would you believe I have an original published in 1988, and edited by none other than :

Mr. Dick Schmidt

Maybe I keep my books too long, but that book was the one bit of Sartain(Jim Bradshaw) methodology that I understood.

Dick Schmidt--You were close to the PIRCO group, didn't Jim Bradshaw write most of the Sartain programs? Later on, Jim came out with his own program and had some success with it.
Jim lives right here in my home town and I see him at the local OTB once in a while. I allways liked Jim, and still do.

MyHorse1

[Dick Schmidt]

Myhorse,

Just as a point of interest, it's Sartin, not Sartain, though I am hardly the one to correct anyone's spelling. Doesn't really matter, as that's not his real name anyway.

Yes, Jim did write some of the Sartin programs, starting about with Energy. Say hi to him and Leroy when you see them.

Dick

[alyingthief]

oddly enough, i have sartin's followup issues 1-60. nyah, nyah, nyah, na, nyah....

i will gladly mail you folks any page(s) of these dynamite ideas--properly and suitably dressed up to appear my own--for pittances! pennies on the dollar! you too can be a winner! 84% ROI!! 106% winners!! no, we are NOT systems sellers!!!! with the proper preparation, using our SECRETS OF THE RACETRACK, you can select the WINNER in less than 2 and one half seconds!!!! deliberate with the depth of big blue!!! work with the frivolity of a three year old child!!!! works on ANY race ANYwhere!!! my techniques were tested against a data base of 978,000,000,000 races and reports have stimulated the quartermaster of the united states marine corps to adopt the strategy to DEFRAY THE EXPENSES for exocet and cruise missiles!!! iraq has made offers!!!!! all this for only 38.99!!!!!!! contact us TODAY!!!!!!

as a bonus to our subscribers, we are offering this special: one day of free selections. if you don't win with this system, we will pay YOU to keep quiet!!!!!!!!!

caveat: we are not responsible for losses; past performance cannot be construed to guarantee future profit.

[Lefty]

Gee, I have seen every issue of the Follow UP and do not recall seeing any of the statements you have described.
Do you have an axe to grind?

[David McKenzie]

// I went back to Phase III (MPH) and Quirin numbers, then HTR. //

The Follow UP was a publication I eagerly anticipated digesting. Unquestionably, it improved my handicapping tremendously. And it was fun too. I still have them as well as the early Factor Analysis manuals. Remember the Tandem Race softcover?

The first KGEN was the thing that killed me. Yes, the winner was on top. Heck, there were 25,000 screens. Of course it was on top *somewhere*.

Thoromation was interesting, but it didn't work that well for me.

To tell you the truth, I made more money using TPR than anything. In particular extrapolating the sprint from a last route race for a horse with a proven success record in sprints made me more money than just about anything before or since. Unfortunately, I know of no way to get that without doing it by hand. Work, ugh. Don't you hate it? Hehe.

I'd appreciate hearing more about HTR. Is this something that's stood the test of time for you and/or others here?

[andicap]

Originally posted by Lefty
Gee, I have seen every issue of the Follow UP and do not recall seeing any of the statements you have described.
Do you have an axe to grind?

I think he was exaggerating but the spirit was correct. I saw the same thing in the Cynthia Publishing materials. A lot of grandiose hype and then when you get the software, "well, it's because you don't know how to pick pacelines." Then Mitchell says, a direct quote from a seminar, "Those who do best with All-in-one are those who don't need it."
Basically, he's saying All-in-One is a great tool for very good handicappers -- fair enough, that's what a program is supposed to be, but then why hype it to novices or intermediates in your mailings as something that will make you a winner.
I suspect Sartin was guilty of the same thing.

[alyingthief]

you misunderstood: no, i had no axe to grind. i just received another rpg thing, and i took off...

[Dick Schmidt]

David Mac,

Yeah, that TPR stuff was great. Wonder what ever happened to those guys?

Actually you can get a very strong version of TPR, including using the internal fractions of a route to create a sprint, in the current version of Synergism. The program is still free, though Bob says he will start charging for it when his programmer finishes a new, very extensive upgrade. The programmer promised it in Feb. Absolutely no later than the end of March. So it should be done any time now. Programmers, you gotta love them. Or shoot them. Anyway, Synergism is still free for the next couple of weeks. It uses the HDW downloads at about $120 a month for all the tracks and results you can eat. Or at least every track in North America.

Dick

www.synergism-sdp.com

[aaron]

Hi,I've used various handicapping programs with some degree of success.I've used Winners Circle and Running Style Position.The Winners Circle program was difficult for me because it was really to restraining,it didn't leave much room for creativity,but if you have the patience to stay with you could probably make some money.I've used RS position for about 4-5 years.I stopped using in November and used Ed Baines layoff and claims for the winter months.I am currently using the Racing Form and various statistics and trips that I keep track of.
I would be interested in any software that would be profitable for multi-track use.Of all the programs I used I felt RS was the best,but my handicapping became stale the last year,when I depended too much on the program.

[David McKenzie]

Thank you, Mr. Schmidt. I'm familiar with Synergism, in fact I'm practically "intimate” with the older versions having spent more hours than I care to admit fiddling and faddling with every notion and way to use it I could imagine. "Profile this, profile that" until my little head was spinning faster than Linda Blair's on a bad day.

The free download is attractive and the $120 per month is certainly not prohibitive.

Without putting you on the spot, and with all due respect to Mr. Purdy, I'm wondering which of these programs would be best suited to MY particular needs. I'm quite serious about my handicapping and am wondering if this version of Synergy would be as appropriate for me as one of the other programs you've mentioned: HTH or HTR -- programs I know zilch about.

Yours is one of the few opinions I'd value in this regard. If you feel it's improper to respond publicly, I'd be most grateful for a private email.

Thank you.

[Dick Schmidt]

David,

Let's keep it public. I've got nothing to hide and that way others might get an answer they need sometime down the road. Let me state upfront that I don't have any financial interest in any of these programs other than as a user.

The obvious answer to your question is: "How the hell would I know?" You are looking for software that "fits" you. So you are the only one who can tell if you like a program or not. The nice thing about Synergism is that the program you can download comes with the past weekend's races and results. This time of year, that's around 80 races. The demo is full featured and you can handicap and play with the races to your heart's content. Or for $10, Bob will send you hundreds of races, the program on a CD and a printed manual. The adjustments to the TPR portion of the program aren't exactly like those in the book, but they are close enough for government work. If you want to read a complete review of the program I wrote for a magazine, there is a link on the Synergism website.

The other programs you ask about are both very good, and can certainly be used on a professional level. I'm not nearly as familiar with HTR, but I have used it enough to say that it has a similar "feel" to Synergism. Both are pace programs that keep models and have enough bells and whistles to keep anyone confused for a very long time.

HSH, on the other hand, is extremely powerful, but feels like it comes from outer space. Or Reno. It is like no other program out there, and I find it to be very accurate, but it takes some getting used to. Much more of a "black box" approach, but damn it can flat pick winners! Both HSH and HTR have message boards, and the HSH board is especially good at helping newcomers. I would suggest reading both boards going back 6 months or so to get some idea of what's going on.

Dick

[modred]

One of the things I remember the most in all of the handicapping books I have read over the years--and that has been a bunch like everyone else here on the board-- is this quote from James Quinn's book 'High Tech Handicapping in the Information Age' Chapter 11 heading for Intuitive Handicapping page 281.

"I keep reading the entries in the Racing Form, over and over. I don't make any notes of specifics. I just keep reading all the entries, again and again, and gradually I grow to despise a few horses in the race. I stop looking at them. After a few more reads I start to get all warm and glowing over two or three. Finally, I fall in love with one of them. That's my pick."

by
Milo Mulch
Member, American Mensa
the Handicapping Special Interest Group, explaining
in Mensacap, June 1982, how he came to pick seven
winners for the members on their group trip to Churchill Downs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 things I got from this... in order to succeed at this game one must be highly focused and be willing to do thousands of races.

Ask Dick Schmidt.

[David McKenzie]

Dick,

I’ve downloaded Synergism VI and have already pressed every button… twice. This should keep me from playing in traffic, at least for a while. I appreciate your insights and suggestions.

David

[Dick Schmidt]

David,

You just think you've pressed all the buttons! I've used it for almost a year and I still find new ones. That is one BIG program, and only Bob knows where all the hidden buttons and tabs are, not to mention both left and right mouse clicks. Hope it fits with your style of play. Have fun and win money!

Dick

[Ignatius]

The new Cynthia Publishing Company FastCapper 2002 had a banner day. Their FastCapper live longshots for nearly all the racetracks in North America are still up on their site.

http://www.cynthiapublishing.com/pick.html

Two 30-1's including Prized Amberpro's upset of Hallowed Dreams et al at Lone Star. A couple of 12-1's and another three or so of 6/7-1's.

If you played all 106 selections after scratches, a profit, rate of 30%. Not bad.

These are good nae great pars - and having HDW as a download source doesn't hurt!

[Richard]

Lefty,Vinnie,and Topcat,
With all the discussion concerning Howard Sartin(whom I have never met),I would like to point a 2-part article that he wrote for AMERICAN TURF MONTHLY(Jan/Feb 2000).The article is titled WINNING TODAY WITH RAY TAULBOT'S PACE CALCULATOR.The article primarily talks about Sartin's style of variant adjustment in relation to using the calculator.I used this method with some success(although I personally prefer the AMER-VAR method which is more tedious).Whether you approve or disapprove of Howard Sartin's methods,this article is worth a read.The article is located at ATM's website:

www.americanturf.com/atm/atmindex.htm

[Tom]

Speaking of Amer-Var and Ray Talbout, does anyone know what angle "B" is? I have read countless references to Angle A and Angle B and I have an article about Angle A, but have yet to find what B is.
Does anyone have this article or at least know what B is?
Thanks

[Lefty]

don't remember if this is A or B but it goes like this: Horse goes up and lose bad and comes down to good effort 3rd race back.

[Richard]

In the Angle Percentage Values portion of the PACE CALCULATOR booklet,question no.5 reads:"Out of the money last start,early speed in the next to last start ((B angle)5.6 points).

[wes]

TOM

Does anyone have this article or at least know what B is?

Would it be applying the ANGLE PERCENTAGE VALUES for each horse.
I have an old manual program of Ray Taulbot's written in 1987 or 1988. The disk has the pace program and the Ray Taulbot's AMER_VAR II computerized daily adjusted speed ratings program also. I checked both instruction books and did not see any thing dealing with A & B.

Could you list some of what A was dealing with. I will see if it is listed in the program instructions listed by some other name.

wes

[Richard]

Wes,
Question no.4 of the booklet reads:"Out of the money last start,in the money next to last start((A angle)6.1 points).Hope that helps a little.Could you tell us a little more about your old PACE CALCULATOR computer program?

[wes]

Richard

1.You type in the horse's name or post number.
2.ask for race line distance. sprint lines are listed 1 to 5 which rates 5 fl to 7 fl.
3.next yoy type in the final time, then it will ask for the HIGHLIGHT TIME. First 1/2 mile fractio0n for sprints and 3/4 mile for route races.
4.Type in the speed rating. then the variant.

The program calculates the initial speed rating from Rat Taulbots parallel time chart . It rates eleven different distances from 5 fl to 1 1/4 mile using key figures each equal to 100.

If you want to apply the ANGLE PERCENTAGE VALUES you have 13 or 14 input questions thay will be asked an yoy type in y=yes or N=no.


The AMER-VAR II PROGRAM
Besides soil composition and moisture, other factors which enter into determining how speed conducive a track is on any particular day includes wind, atsmospheric conditions and track maintenance. These unnoted changes are traps for speed handicappers, and a scientific daily variant such as the one calculated by AMER-VAR II is the only way they can be avoided.

The CORRECTIVES assigned to each race takes into account the fact that horses which differ in class, sex and age can be expexted to run differnt final times at different distances at different times of the year. Derived from a special chart developed by Tay Taulbot to reflect these age, sex and class differences, these AMER-VAR II correctives are essential to extablish the true speed conduciveness of the track on any particular day.

I think there is a modern windows version out that is sold by American Turf Monthly for around $150.00. Which uses files you can download from the different data sellers.


wes

[wes]

Richard

Question no.4 of the booklet reads:"Out of the money last start,in the money next to last start((A angle)6.1 points).Hope that helps a little.Could you tell us a little more about your old PACE CALCULATOR computer program?

The Questions in the program are the same you just type in yes or no to each question.

When using the the AMER-VAR II Ratings in conjunction with the pace computer, it is also necessary to make certain adjustments in the procedure. This is because the pace computer(program) is compounding three distinct figures into one: the rating for the final time; the rating for the highlight pace time; and the speed rating.
When we use the AMER-VAR II adjusted rating, we have already adjusted the speed rating for the track variant. However using the Pace program, the two other figures-the final time and the highlight pace time-must also be adjusted to reflect the speed of the track that day.

wes

[Richard]

Wes,
Thanks for the info.I've been using the slide-rule device off and on in conjunction with other software (EASY CAPPER,SNAPCAPPER PRO).I just wondered how well the PACE CALCULATOR software worked for you.

[wes]

For a pace number it produces a good one without much trouble. I use it to double check the top three or four contenders.


wes

[azmike]

Dick:

Regarding Synergism VI: I see from your posts that you use both Synergism and HSH. I am curious (since I have always used two programs as well) how you inter-weave the two programs. Which do you bet when they disagree or aren't you looking for agreement between the two. It appears from reading the posts on the 2 programs that Synergism works best if you pick pacelines and HSH does not require (or maybe permit) user selected pacelines. Both also seem to rely upon "modeling" for part of its selections. Do they require user input to model or is it automatic with downloading of results?

Thank you very much for all of your useful input to this board.

[Derek2U]

after reading this thread i've concluded your all insane.

[Dick Schmidt]

AZMike,

Right now, I do 100% of my money play with HSH. I have tried to integrate Synergism, sometimes with some success, but a few months ago I developed a HSH only approach that is doing very well. I no longer use Synergism in my day to day win play.

However, HSH has one serious weakness, using it the way I do. It does fine picking winners, many at a good price, but is sucks at finding back hole plays. I can't seem to pick a place horse, or even a show horse, to save my bankroll. For exotic play, I use a technique suggested on the HSH board (3 over 5) and I find that Synergism does a better job. I'm not to the point of using it with real money just yet, but I will be soon. Now if I can just find some more hours in the day. The only way I'll be able to integrate Synergism is to cut back on the number of win plays I make. Right now, I'm still proving to myself that I can make more money betting more pools in fewer races. We'll see.

Dick

[Tom]

Originally posted by Derek2U
after reading this thread i've concluded your all insane.

Do you hear the voices, too????

[JimG]

Originally posted by Dick Schmidt
AZMike,


However, HSH has one serious weakness, using it the way I do. It does fine picking winners, many at a good price, but is sucks at finding back hole plays. I can't seem to pick a place horse, or even a show horse, to save my bankroll. For exotic play, I use a technique suggested on the HSH board (3 over 5) and I find that Synergism does a better job.

Dick

As a user of both software programs over the last year or so, my research has mirrored yours. Synergism is better for me at this point for exotics. HSH is very solid in multiple horse win betting.


Jim

[azmike]

Dick and JimG;

Thanks for your input. I prefer to play the exotics as opposed to win bets (except for pick 3s which are win bets). I experimented with Synergism with the demo and the files and I found a very high success rate with exactas and tris. I especially found AB exacta box, ABC exacta box and then ABC with ABCDE(sometimes even adding F below) to produce a positve roi. The autoselection was good but picking pacelines was much better. All in all I think it is a real strong program. I would like to have a more options so I could fine tune the auto paceline selection to lessen my manual input but I understand from its web site an upgrade is near and maybe that will provide some nice tweaks.

JimG: Do you pick your pacelines or use the auto selection with Synergism. Do you actually run both programs for all the races? HSH intriques me because of all the angles it provides but I would also want to use Synergism based on what I have seen so far. Just curious if this is dooable or is it going to be too much work and too time consuming to run both programs.

[Dick Schmidt]

AZ,

I'm not sure what upgrades Bob has planned for the next release, but I don't think that he is having much work done on the paceline part. It's rather flexable right now. You might give Bob a call and talk it over with him, he is obvioulsy much more familar with the program and is always ready to help. He may be able to show you a way to fine tune the paceline selections to meet your needs. Personally, I use the TPRs to pick lines, looking for a representitive line that is neither a 10 race high or low. Bob does a much more complete job of it.

Dick

[azmike]

Dick:

With or without changes to the paceline selection process I find this to be a very good program. That was just a minor point on my part. I have used lots of programs in the past and I find the easy on the eyes user interface (no reason to have old DOS looking screens in my opinion), the incorporation of both TPR, speed and projected speed numbers and the trainer/jockey stats to be very helpful features. I know I should probably teach myself to think "out of the box" but I still like the "see" the race. I like to see where the speed is, does it set up for closers, is this great looking horse ridden by an 0 for 34 jockey, is the horse a lasix 2nd timer etc. Synergism has all of that. So I am in my comfort zone when I can (if I choose) what to see all of that.

But, having said that, I am ALSO intriqued by angles that might be provided by HSH that I just could not come up with.

I would love to do many, many tracks and increase the chances of hitting more value plays to increase my roi but I haven't found my comfort level in doing more than 4-5 tracks per day. I am not sure that style will fit me but I am intriqued to try it and accept or reject it for me. For that reason I also am interested in the HSH for the style of play you describe.

Frankly, it sounds kinda exciting to sit at the betting central cockpit and "click and bet" left and right. Almost too exciting :)

I like to always be open to new ideas that is why I enjoy reading this board.

[Dick Schmidt]

AZ Guy,

To start, I'd pick one program and stay with the number of races you are comfortable with. Once you have established a winning habit and way of going, then you can add to it. Either more races or another program. Take it slow and easy; there is always tomorrow and always more races.

Good luck,

Dick

P.S. Don't forget what I said about calling Bob Purdy. He can give you much more help than anyone else, and is glad to do it.

[Rick]

Derek,

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. Beware!

[azmike]

Rick:

Good one.

[JimG]

Originally posted by azmike
Dick and JimG;

JimG: Do you pick your pacelines or use the auto selection with Synergism. Do you actually run both programs for all the races? HSH intriques me because of all the angles it provides but I would also want to use Synergism based on what I have seen so far. Just curious if this is dooable or is it going to be too much work and too time consuming to run both programs.

Regarding Synergism...primarily auto selection although if I disagree, I change the paceline the program selected.

I would think one program at a time to aid in the handicapping would be the way to go. I really like HSH for win bets and stay-at-home play over the computer races. A program like Synergism or one of the BRIS offerings prints better reports to take to the track. I find HSH to be really effective if you are able to constantly update the odds.

Jim

[First_Place]

Topcat wrote:

"Perhaps I am I am not saying it eloquently enough if the point is missed and some think it is "trashing an old sick man". That, BTW, was the defense arguement/defelction that was put forward for John Demjanjuk, the 81-year old Ukrainian immigrant said by the US government to have served as a Nazi death camp guard. He was convicted of torturing inmates to death. Now please, please do NOT reply back and say how dare I compare Howard to a Nazi-"

Before you open your mouth, Topcat, and spread nasty disinformation, it would be very wise of you to do your homework first. FYI, John Demjanjuk was acquitted of all charges--not "convicted of torturing inmates to death"--by an Israeli Supreme Court. This after having been betrayed by his country, unjustly stripped of his citizenship, deported to Israel and sentenced to hang--all based on very flimsy evidence and questionable eyewitness accounts. What happened to this innocent American citizen was a travesty of justice and what you did to further slander his name is almost as outrageous!

FP

"The OSI, then under the direction of Neal Sher...cynically and in violation of all judicial procedures practised by democratic countries, deliberately withheld evidence that they knew would prove Demjanjuk innocent. For this they were subsequently reprimanded by US Courts. They knew Demjanjuk was innocent, yet they let him face execution. For five years he lived in a cramped, solitary cell facing death, saved only because the Israeli justice system proved to be better in safeguarding civil liberties than the American one."

http://www.uccla.ca/issues/warcrimes/i_wrcrms_073.html

[Binder]

I just was skimming
the post on this thread

I feel bad for Doc.

Years ago, when I was talking to Doc on the telephone and writing letters and waiting for months for answers
Buying NEW programs every year.....
I heard rumors. And warnings
"he's just a business man trying to sell programs"


I have a Sartin Methodology based yahoo group
We have such an advantage over what Doc had to work with
as for as answering questions and providing
help to beginners and the lost sheep showing examples of races,
that were just run. Within minutes I can have my readouts posted We have a few members including myself who post
their readouts before the races and Do very well

What I'm trying to say is Doc's programs help me
His follow Ups are on my group
They are full of errors But the subject
was mostly "Use the program and believe in your self"
Doc did have the brains to teach us to follow a few basic steps
and bet two horses
and write down your results on a 20 race
DWF cycle sheet. It worked for me I would call Doc
tell him He would say "Good Job" and I was a winner

Whatever he did worked for me
Now
I see its working on V/DC
I have no program to sell
I only have a gift from Doc. It's that I can do something I love
Bet the horses and not lose

Binder

V/DC Messenger Service
A Sartin Methodology Group

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by JimG
Some one brought it up in another thread but I thought it would be interesting to see who owns or has tried what in the thoroughbred software world.

Programs that I own and use from time to time in no particular order:

All-Ways Pro


Jim

Over the past 5 years I have done a most extensive study of All-Ways Pro data.

The data is quite accurate, but except for possibly one or two factors, no more accurate then the betting public. I had to determine this out-side of the analysis programs offered within All-Ways

The structure of the the analysis programs within All-ways are meaningless and an insult to the intelegence of anyone with an ounce of common sense.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Dick Schmidt
AZMike,


It does fine picking winners, many at a good price, but is sucks at finding back hole plays. I can't seem to pick a place horse, or even a show horse, to save my bankroll.
Dick

If you can make money in the win pool don't waste your money else where.
Just think, if indeed you have an over-lay in the win pool, all the other win pool bets are more underlayed then usual.
When you do find your place horse he has to overcome the dis-advantage of being more of an under lay due to your winning pick being an overlay.

You have to take this into account when calculating a "fair" excata price

A vauled place horse price is more difficult to find due to your overlayed winning pick.

[sjk]

My experience with win/exacta bets is totally reversed from what formula suggests. I look for win and/or exacta bets and about 95% of the time I find better value in the exactas.

[traveler]

This might even test Dick's memory banks, I brought a pile of old
floppies to work today and am seeing what can be thrown out
and I have a PHASE III harness program. It even runs on my XP machine here. say's a lot for how busy I am at work.

[46zilzal]

The remnants are still alive and well with the latest from the same programmer who worked on the validator and synthesis programs now refined (especially ht e extractions adn projections). Planning a seminar in June to review the state of the methodology.

[46zilzal]

The last few programs going back to the early 90's were written by a fellow who is now part of the Sartin ALums. He is still refining the methodology.

[Myhorse1_X]

Shane:

There is currently an update to TMH for windows. The program is
still DOS based, but the installation is for windows.

Just call them and they will send you a C D. The cost is nothing.

It does not require a dongle is the best feature of the update.

MyHorse1

[Tom]

Originally posted by 46zilzal
The remnants are still alive and well with the latest from the same programmer who worked on the validator and synthesis programs now refined (especially ht e extractions adn projections). Planning a seminar in June to review the state of the methodology.
Any details? Where it will be held, etc?

[Figman]

I know Lefty has used many software programs but the one member that I would like to hear from on this subject is Maxspa. There is no one I personally know that has experimented with more software programs than him.

[JimG]

Wow, this an old thread I started over 2 years ago. Kinda interesting to see what I have test drove in the last 2 years. I can add the following to my original post:

Equisim 5
Pro Pace
Capsheet 4
J Capper
Validator 3

Jim

[Maxspa]

My Horse,
I just contacted Jerry Wayne at Handicappers.com . He informed me that there has not been a TMH update for years. He
told me to check my program and if it is 2.1 then it is up to date.
Maxspa

[NoDayJob]

:D THE "SLICKER, QUIKER, HOSS PIQUER". GUARANTEED TO MAKE YOU WEALTHY IN JUST TEN DAYS. NO FOOING! WOULD THE FOLKS AT SLICKER, QUIKER, PIQUER, INC. LIE TO YOU? DON'T FORGET THEIR "SLICKER, QUIKER, LOTTO PIQUER" IF YOU REALLY WANT THE ROAD TO EASY RICHES. :D

NDJ

[shane]

Maxspa,

I called ITS and they're sendind me TMH on a CD that also eliminates the dongle.
Shane

[Maxspa]

Shane,Thank you for the the TMH information! Please Let me know if you see any changes when you use the program.
Maxspa

[jandrus]

why would I.T.S. give away a program that cost $1200 for free.
it don't make sense. :)

[shane]

Jandrus,

I've used TMH for 11 years. I bought a new computer and opted not to add a floppy drive. The program was on a floppy and needed a hardware lock to run it. That has now changed.
Shane

[cato]

Shane--With regard to TMH I am curious if you are still using the original numbers for the "track performance number" (I can't remeber exactly what they are called) or if you have inserted your own numbers. If your own numbers, what approcah did you take? For example, when I last used it several years ago, I used some commercially produced pars--probably Cynthia at the time and then either used a high claiming level or NW1 or NW2 for the track performance number performance.

Did you ever use the pin point adjustment concept? If so, how has that worked for you. Any hints in putting together the correct adjustments?

Thanks, Cato

[shane]

Cato,

I didn't change the TP numbers. I created races and back dated them to 1993. I used each distance as a separate race and each horse had a race at each distance . I used only races from DRF with a Beyer's of 70. Then I adjusted each with the pin-point. I made them all equal. At first glance it didn't seem right that a 70 at 5 1/2f should equal 70 at 1 1/16 but it works for me.
Shane

[mikeb]

Jim
Have you ever come across a program called "tracker"?:confused:
It was out there about 10 years ago,the programmers name was Bob Clare,he passed away shortly after.He came from the vegas area.

thanks
md.

[NoDayJob]

oddly enough, i have sartin's followup issues 1-60. nyah, nyah, nyah, na, nyah....

i will gladly mail you folks any page(s) of these dynamite ideas--properly and suitably dressed up to appear my own--for pittances! pennies on the dollar! you too can be a winner! 84% ROI!! 106% winners!! no, we are NOT systems sellers!!!! all this for only 38.99!!!!!!! contact us TODAY!!!!!!

as a bonus to our subscribers, we are offering this special: one day of free selections. if you don't win with this system, we will pay YOU to keep quiet!!!!!!!!!

caveat: we are not responsible for losses; past performance cannot be construed to guarantee future profit.

:D All well and good, but the Slicker, Quiker Hoss Piquer is only $1.99 retail. I'm told it sold for $0.99 on EBay. Why would anyone spend more money for the same results? :D

NDJ

[NoDayJob]

Lee Rousso. Was living in Arcadia a couple years ago. Don't know now, but he was originally from the Seattle area and may have migrated back there when Emerald Downs opened.

I believe he's tending bar again in Seattle.

NDJ

[NoDayJob]

All-Ways Pro
Capsheet
Plus V
Horse Street Handicapper
Equisim ROI
PHQS
Clint Tracy Insta-Pick
HTR
Multicaps
Neurax Pro
Synergism VI
Aodds Silver
Work Horse Pro

:D Holy Krap, no wonder P.T. Barnum made a fortune! Mebee, I should write and market a program? Seems to be plenty of buyers out there. I have to figure a way compete with the price of the Slicker, Quiker Hoss Piquer. Only $1.99 retail, you know. Any suggestions? :D

NDJ

[Tom]

Favorite program...nobody had mentioned my favorite and most usefyul program yet.....Turbo Tax! :D

[kingfin66]

Turbo Tax huh. It is indeed a very good program....but this is a horseracing thread. Of course, more taxes back means more $$$ to bet on horses. :D

[ratpack]

It does fit for those of use who had to declare winnings. I used Turbo Tax last year and found it very helpful for my deductions.

[mikeb]

barry burkan came out with "power pace" what seems like a hundred years ago.

pretty much dissapeared.

[legs]

with all those programs did you ever find one that you really liked or worked

[JimG]

with all those programs did you ever find one that you really liked or worked

Yes, several of them. Most notably Horse Street Handicapper, All-Ways Pro, and Equisim. I have always been a recreational player, at best, but I consider all of these to be professional level software because they each contain so much information that can improve your game if you are already a decent player. I don't play much anymore due to personal reasons, but I assure you that all three of these programs can make any player better with extensive use. Best of luck.

Jim

[JimG]

:D Holy Krap, no wonder P.T. Barnum made a fortune! Mebee, I should write and market a program? Seems to be plenty of buyers out there. I have to figure a way compete with the price of the Slicker, Quiker Hoss Piquer. Only $1.99 retail, you know. Any suggestions? :D

NDJ

One suggestion No Day Job, get a new joke! The slicker, quiker, whatever is getting old!

Jim

[NoDayJob]

One suggestion No Day Job, get a new joke! The slicker, quiker, whatever is getting old! Jim

:D So am I! :D

NDJ

[46zilzal]

with all those programs did you ever find one that you really liked or worked
Folks seem to hop around before they ever REALLY test any of these programs.