Eagles/Vikinks Game Thoughts..

[sq764]

2 thoughts..

1) Randy Moss might actually be a bigger ass than Barry Bonds.. I didn't think it was possible

2) Dante Culpepper might actually be more overrated than Michael Vick.. Also, didn't think was possible..

[Tom]

Randy Moss...how does he find time to play football, make Beyer speed fiures, and host ESPN racing shows? That guy is an over-achiever!:rolleyes:

[chickenhead]

...Bonds can't touch TO much less Moss.......

[sq764]

shhh, do you hear that?? It's Randy Moss being quiet..

It's nice..

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764

Randy Moss might actually be a bigger ass than Barry Bonds.. I didn't think it was possible


Moss is an ass, but it funny how you always mention the guys from teams you don't root for, but ignore those on the teams for which you do root. TO and Manny come to mind immediately.

[sq764]

TO has been ok since he came to Philly.. He was certainly a complete ass in San Fran..

Manny has his moments.. as does Pedro..

[Valuist]

Culpepper overrated? Are you crazy? The guy was going up against one of the top pass defenses in the NFL last night and completed almost 80% of his throws. He was under constant pressure all night and his throws were right on the money. I'll give Philly's D credit for taking away the deep ball but I don't think Manning, Vick, Brady or McNair would've put up those numbers last night. He also had a TD taken away bya penalty. I had Philly last night but realistically they dodged a bullet. 5 red zone opps for Minny and only 1 TD.

[sq764]

He threw all dump passes and 5-10 yard screens.. He should have completed 95% of those passes..

When he was pressured, he threw stupid passes.. He fumbled 2 or 3 times.. And his only deep balls/touchdowns are jump balls he throws to Moss..

He's an average-above average QB at best..

[sq764]

And by the way, Manning came into Philly 2 years ago, against a much better defense and lit up the secondary all game long..

Good/great QB's score td's in the red zone, not field goals and turnovers..

[Valuist]

I'd like to hear defensive coordinators asked on which QBs scare them the most. Manning may be the best pure passer but he can't run like Culpepper and he doesn't put as much fear into defensive coordinators like Culpepper does.

He was pressured all game long. Brett Favre throws plenty of screens and I don't see him completing 80% of his passes. BTW, if Culpepper and Vick are overrated, who is underrated then? Favre is well past his prime. Brady? Maybe him. McNabb isn't underrated, Trent Green is decent but not great; he certainly hasn't gotten off to a great start. Who's left, Pennington? A nice passer with no mobility. McNair? Solid but I'll take Daunte.

[sq764]

Underrated?? I think Pennington is a star in the making..

I would take Mcnair and Favre over Vick and Culpepper any day..

Put Culpepper on a team without Moss and see what he does..

Vick and Culpepper will never win anything ever... Mcnair was about 5 yards away from winning it all.. Mcnabb is close.. Favre's already done it and was one poor pass from being in the SB last year..

IMO... Top 5 QB's right now - Brady, Manning, Mcnabb, Mcnair, Favre

[brdman12]

Minnesota has no runnung game, thats their biggest problem. If they had one, their passing gamw would be much better. And its pretty good.

[Valuist]

McNabb is probably top 5 but he's a poor man's version of Culpepper. And he didn't look good at all the first 4-5 games last year. As for your ripping on Vick, I don't get that, unless you think a QB has to be an immobile statue, like a Manning or Pennington. Culpepper and Vick are freakish talents. Put Brady on a team w/a defense as bad as Minny or Atl (or even Indy) and he doesn't win 2 Super Bowls. You ripped on Culpepper for dinking last night; Brady has made a career of it.

[sq764]

Poor man's version of Culpepper?? You don't watch much football, do you?

How many playoff games has Culpepper won?

Brady is smart and doesn't make mistakes.. That's what wins games.. Culpepper is the all-time leading fumbler per game.. ALL TIME..

That is why they are never in the playoffs and is why he will never win anything..

[Valuist]

Those of us who bet Philly probably didn't deserve to cash. Outgained, outfirst downed, got a gift TD that for some strange reason wasn't challenged, and was helped by 10 Minnesota penalties for 70 yards. I liken football handicapping to trip handicapping. The Eagles were loose on the lead with a slow pace.

LOL. Not watching football? I've hit between 55-60% ATS the past 5 years in the NFL. I posted my week 2 analysis on another thread. And it was dead on. Yes, McNabb is a poor man's Culpepper. FWIW, its still about defense, NOT just the QB. Its amazing how people are ready to put Brady in the HOF for playing w/a great defense and great coach.

[sq764]

Again, Brady doesn't make mistakes.. That's why he's a winner..

Culpepper led the NFL in interceptions last year! That is why he's a loser..

[Valuist]

No, Culpepper threw 11 ints. BTW, Brady threw 12 and McNabb 11. In TDs, Culpepper threw 25, Brady 23 and McNabb 16. Completion percentage: Culpepper 65% Brady 60% McNabb 57%
Overall QB rating: Culpepper 96.1 Brady 85.9 McNabb 79.6

[sq764]

Sorry, it gave me 2002 stats for some reason..

Let's see.. who was in the playoffs last year.. Brady, Mcnabb, Culpepper?? oop, just Brady and Mcnabb..

Hey, if you want a loser take Culpepper.. Have fun..

If you want someone on your team that can lead them to the promised land, take Brady or Mcnabb..

it isn't a mystery why the top QB's win..

[Valuist]

The best defensive teams win. Just like in all sports, if you can't stop the opposition, you will not win. QBs just get all the glory. And I guarantee you, put Culpepper or Vick on New England and they win last years Super Bowl.

[sq764]

Best defense wins the SB??

So from 1997 - 2000 when you had Green Bay, Denver, Denver, and St Louis, this applied??

Culpepper and Vick would not have won the SB.. I think you underestimate how smart and controlled Brady is.. You say its all his defense.. He drove his team down in the final drive to win the game.. The superbowl wasn't a 7-6 game either..

[Valuist]

Green Bay's defense was very, very solid in 1996. One of the best that season. Even St. Louis in 1999 was top 5 defensively. Look at 2000; offensively they were just as good, but the D went into the toilet. I've been following the NFL for over 30 years; I have yet to see an average or below average defense win the Super Bowl. That's why a team like KC was a total fraud last year.

As for your promised land comment, yes Brady has won 2 Super Bowls. But what has McNabb won?? He's LOST three NFC championship games. I know he hasn't had the greatest WRs but now he has no excuse. But you can't include him in that comment. You're making Rush Limbaugh's statement look valid.

[sq764]

I think Mcnabb has done a hell of a lot with the shit receiving crew he has had.. He also has never had a stud running back (like Robert Smith or Jamaal Anderson).. To make it to 3 NFC Championships is quite an accomplishment, considering…

This year is a little different.. He has a capable running back and one of the top 3 receivers in the NFL, so there’s no excuse..

Remember, Culpepper has had Moss his entire career.. Take him away and what does he do??

[Valuist]

Its hard to say. But Moss does not have big numbers this year, yardage wise. I thought Philly did a great job taking away the deep ball. Culpepper has been spreading the ball around well. Maybe McNabb will get it done this year. I said in another thread, I think there's 3 teams at the top in the NFC: Philly, Seattle and Minnesota. Seattle is legitimate; their defense is improved and they have multiple weapons offensively.

[sq764]

Minnesota will choke again just like last year..

I think it's the Eagles, Packers and Rams again this year.. I could see the same matchups this year, although its too early to tell how Carolina will be..

[Valuist]

You can forget the Rams and Packers. Both teams are aging. Martz is a terrible head coach. Packers run D got shredded by Thomas Jones last week. Both teams are public teams and will be overbet, IMO.

[sq764]

Packers were aging last year and were one errant pass from the NFC Championship game..

Don't underestimate Favre.. An aging Favre is still better than youthful inexperience..

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
Minnesota will choke again just like last year..

I think it's the Eagles, Packers and Rams again this year.. I could see the same matchups this year, although its too early to tell how Carolina will be..

Rams? Do you even watch the games? They are just not very good at all, and have one of the worst coaches in the league.

I think you are a little hard on Culpepper, its only his fifth year, and he's pretty damn good. I wouldn't say overrated, because I don't think most football fans have him rated top 5. Favre is way past his prime, he's just nowhere near what he used to be. Vick is good at home, bad on the road, but its only his second real season. He'll be fine.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
TO has been ok since he came to Philly.. He was certainly a complete ass in San Fran..

Manny has his moments.. as does Pedro..

Its been two weeks and they haven't lost. He'll be back.

So, why the constant Bonds bashing, but nothing on the jerks you root for unless someone else brings it up? At least 20 different threads I would bet I could find where you bash Bonds. It's almost comical, he's the best player in baseball. Is it because he wouldn't play for Boston? I don't understand.

[sq764]

Only his fifth year? What should we wait 15 years??

Is Testaverde ready now to be judged??

If you haven't figured it out in 5 years, you shouldn't be starting..

And it's ironic, you are the one that earlier (about baseball) stressed why Jeter was so good, because he wins..

The same can be said about Mcnabb and Favre.. Culpepper and Vick will never win anything..

[sq764]

I simply mentioned Bonds was an ass and that Moss was a possible bigger ass.. Sorry if a true statement got your panties in a bunch..

[cj]

McNabb hasn't won squat. Noone cares who lost the NFC championship, no matter how many times they lose it. I think he is one of the best, but let's be fair, he hasn't won anything.

As for Culpepper, he has had to play the last two years with no running game. The first year, Robert Smith retired and left in the off season, and then Michael Bennet was hurt very early last year.

I love how you think they won't win anything. Was Jeff Hostetler a good QB? How about Jim Plunkett? Should I keep going on bums that have won Super Bowls? Football is a team game, and either of those guys is certainly capable of winning it all with the right cast.

CJ, please don't compare Brady to Montana and Elway.. That's ridiculous..


Oh, and now you are his biggest fan, eh? Are you secretly John Kerry?

Elway didn't win a damn thing until TD came along. Think a player of that caliber could push Culpepper, Vick, or even McNabb over the top?

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
I simply mentioned Bonds was an ass and that Moss was a possible bigger ass.. Sorry if a true statement got your panties in a bunch..

I don't care about either one, just pointing out what a homer you are, as usual.

[sq764]

I don't see your point, Brady is not Elway or Montana.. Nobody is.. Where did I ever veer from that?

Last I heard, Elway and Montana retired..

[sq764]

a homer? uh, ok.. I guess I've been called worse..

[sq764]

CJ, I thought its all about Championships?? Arent't the QB's the focal point of the team and the great ones have something that cannot be defined by ststs??

[cj]

On some teams they are, and on some teams they aren't. Do you honestly think the Giants wouldn't have won the Super Bowl without Hostetler? The 86 Bears needed McMahon? Trent Dilfer, no freaking way. I don't think so.

A great QB can do it without every piece of the puzzle. Montana, Brady, Unitas, even Favre. Others need more help. Elway, as great as he was, couldn't win until the defense improved and he got the #1 running back in the game those two years in the backfield.

I can't even think of the backup Denver had who didn't miss a beat the few games he had to step in for Elway those years. Frerotte maybe?

I think Brady is great because he won with zero running game and mediocre receivers. But, if you take away the outstanding defense of the Pats, he could have easily been 7-9. Team game sq, always has been, always will be.

[sq764]

What about Marino?

[cj]

Never had all the pieces. He did have enough to win a few years though, so I'd stop short of calling him one of the greats. Closer to a Dan Fouts than a Joe Montana.

[Valuist]

Sq-

You don't like Bonds, Vick or Culpepper. All are freakishly talented. Why not just appreciate their talents as a fan? You may never see another Barry Bonds in your lifetime. I only saw the last year or 2 of Mays' career and he was only a shell of what he used to be. Saw maybe the last 5 years of Aaron. But I've seen all of Bonds career. I remember them talking about Bobby Bonds had a son at Arizona State who was going to be better than his dad. They were right. Like Stuart Scott might say, don't hate.....appreciate.

[chickenhead]

I read something the other day, said Bonds' opening line for his HOF speech is going to be:

"Some of you missed the show...."

I kind of like that...

[sq764]

Valuist, you misundersand me... I don't like Bonds as a person, I do respect his talents as a great player.. (Contrary to CJ's belief), I think Manny Ramirez can be a stupid asshole at times, but he's a great player.. I think Roger Clemens is one of the most heartless, egotistical bastards ever to play baseball, but I respect that he's one of the greatest pitchers ever..

Vick and Culpepper are talented, but that means nothing unless you put it to good use and you improve.. Ryan Leaf was super talented, Kijana Carter was super taltented, Tim Couch was super talented.. Where exactly are they now?

Will Vick and Culpepper someday be great? Probably not.. Could they? Sure.. I just seriously doubt it.. You can be as mobile as you want, but you still have to be able to be a decent pocket passer and frankly I don't see that in Vick or Culpepper.. Mcnabb is learning how and is light years ahead of those 2..

Show me how many 'super agile, super mobile, freakishly talented' super bowl winning QBs there are... How about in the neighborhood of ZERO..

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
Ryan Leaf was super talented, Kijana Carter was super taltented, Tim Couch was super talented.. Where exactly are they now?

Kijana Carter was injured seriously too early to ever tell.

Are you serious? Ryan Leaf? Must be some of those DuPont chemicals floating through the neighborhood!

And Tim Couch? Come on, neither of those QBs have half the talent of a Vick or Culpepper.

Show me how many 'super agile, super mobile, freakishly talented' super bowl winning QBs there are... How about in the neighborhood of ZERO..

Well, those types of QBs didn't get a chance for many years due to prejudiced or just plain stupid management in college and the NFL. But I can name one, Steve Young.

[sq764]

OR... is it because college type QBs don't fare well in the NFL??

[sq764]

Let’s look at the last 10 Super Bowl Winning QBs:

2004 – Brady – (Pocket Passer)
2003 – Johnson – (Pocket Passer)
2002 – Brady (“”)
2001 – Dilfer – (Pocket Passer)
2000 – Warner – (Pocket Passer)
1999 – Elway – (Pocket Passer/scrambler)
1998 – Elway – (“”)
1997 – Favre – (Pocket Passer/Scrambler)
1996 – Aikman – (Pocket Passer)
1995 – Young – (Pocket Passer/Scrambler/possible runner)


Do you see a pattern here??

[Valuist]

Tim Couch was never talented. I saw some of his SEC games at Kentucky. His entire resume was 5 yard dump offs. Drew Brees did the same thing at Purdue. Ryan Leaf? Lets not mention Couch and Leaf in the same breath as Daunte and Vick. By any statistical criteria, Culpepper had a great 2003 season. 96.1 QB rating. He is arguably the best QB in the NFL, and one of the top 5 players at any position RIGHT NOW. Is Vick at that level yet? No but he definitely could. He hasnt had much in terms of WRs to work with down there. Peerless Price is no All-Pro. Neither is Brian Finneran.

I just saw your last post. Young a pocket passer??? Elway a poclet passer? Young was the closest thing to a white Vick. Elway was notorious for his scrambling ability. And GB has loved to roll Favre out over the years. He rarely sits there as a statue.
Last but not least, the QB is only one piece to a Super Bowl puzzle.

[sq764]

Culpepper arguably the best QB In the NFL? Haha, dude, get a clue..

Hmm, Mcnabb had a much better receiving core last year in Pinkston??? Freddie Mitchell??? That's a poor excuse for not winning..

[Valuist]

McNabb didn't have a good receiving corps last year. Nobody will ever argue that. Yeah, next you'll be telling me Brady and Pennington are better than Culpepper. Maybe in a lilly white world. Not in the real world.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
OR... is it because college type QBs don't fare well in the NFL??

I think McNair, McNabb, Vick, and Culpepper are all in the Top 10 of QBs. 20 years ago, they would never have gotten a shot in the pros, because they couldn't even get a shot in most colleges.

[cj]

Originally posted by Valuist
McNabb didn't have a good receiving corps last year. Nobody will ever argue that. Yeah, next you'll be telling me Brady and Pennington are better than Culpepper. Maybe in a lilly white world. Not in the real world.

I would argue that Brady is better than Culpepper. I think a lot of people could make that argument. More physical talent? No. Better player? Yes.

[sq764]

Valuist, there is no doubt in my mind that Brady is better and Pennington is probably a year away, maybe not even..

I mean how exactly do you rate who's better than who?

[dav4463]

Did you notice the play where Culpepper ran it in for a TD and it was called back for holding ? Did you see the way he held the ball out to the referee, and then pulled it away and spiked it right in the referee's face ? Too bad there aren't technical fouls in football ! That was the move of a real smart-ass ! That's why I always respected Barry Sanders so much, he just handed the ball to the referee and went about his business.

[sq764]

CJ, you make an excellent point in your response.. Better talent does not equal better player…I think Valuist thinks massively talented and sickly agile supercedes intelligence and experience..

It doesn’t..

[Valuist]

They do have a mathematical formula to measure a QB's passing rating, and Culpepper blew away Brady and McNabb and topped even Manning, who's generally considered the best pure passer. No, talent isn't everything. But for some reason, you like to rip on talented players.

[sq764]

Um, what stats are you looking at? Manning was a higher QB Rating than Culpepper last year..

I don't rip talented players, I was saying some are overrated and will never win anything.. Nothing wrong with that..

[Valuist]

One player does not make a Super Bowl team. And just why do you say Culpepper is overrated? Because the Vikes haven't won a Super Bowl? I'm a Bears fan and follow the NFC North pretty closely. That defense they've had up there has been terrible over the years. They're working on it, bringing in a shutdown corner like Wingfield and a safety like Chavous. I don't think their defense is good enough. If Elway had never won a Super Bowl, would you have said he wasn't a great QB? Tom Brady is basically a younger version of Rich Gannon. Good, efficient and won't lose a game for you. But not a Hall of Famer.

[chickenhead]

numbers never tell the whole story. Some guys can put up great numbers and never be a winner, no matter who is around them.

Too early to tell with any of these guys yet, but I tend to agree with SQ, imo Culpepper and Vick haven't shown me as much as Brady, Pennington, McNabb, and McNair. IMO Manning is still questionable.

[Valuist]

OK, Brady has won 2 Super Bowls. But what the hell has Chad Pennington won? He hasn't even proven he can stay healthy. I wouldn't be surprised if Leftwich became better than him. Leftwich broke all his passing records at Marshall.

[chickenhead]

it's just something I see when I've seen him play..reminds me more of Montana than any QB I've watched. I'm not saying he's done anything yet, I'm just saying I wouldn't at all be surprised if he does.

[sq764]

Chad Pennington had a 104+ QB Rating in 2002.. When did Culpepper, Vick or Leftwich ever come close to that?

You say Culpepper hasn't won a SB, has he even made the playofffs once in 5 years??

[SAL]

Tom Brady may not be HOF material yet, but you can't deny he's a winner. Sometimes the quarterback ratings don't tell the whole story. I remember Bill Walsh saying this about Steve DeBerg a number of years ago:

"He plays just well enough to get you beat". Or something to that effect. Brady's kind of the opposite of that. He plays just well enough to win the game. Look at his 7-0 record in overtime games, + the amazing fact that NE has won like it's last 28 in a row when leading into the 4th quarter.

If you gave me the choice of any QB in the NFL to start a new franchise Brady would be the man. Bar none.

[Valuist]

Sq-

Yeah and he was at 82.9 last year, which I believe is more recent than 2002.....which you seem stuck on since you quoted Culpeppers INT numbers from two years ago.

Lets re-visit Super Bowl history. In most cases, the QB wasn't a major factor

2003-New England- best pass defense in NFL, decent run defense, Brady solid
2002-Tampa Bay- again, great pass defense and decent run defense. Pretty vanilla offense
2001-New England-amazing. They were in the lower half in both offense and defense. Have to give this one to Belichek and special teams
2000-Baltimore- tremendous run defense. One of the best ever. Ray and Jamal Lewis were the stars, not the QB
1999-Warner got MVP but it couldn't easily gone to Marshall Faulk. Tremendous weapons on offense but defense was in top 5 also. Maybe the most improved team in recent history.
1998-Terrell Davis was the number one reason. Elway is one of the all time greats but he was in the twilight of his career
1997-same comments as above
1996- Favre was at his peak and the defense was very tough.
Dallas run- Was Aikman very good? Yes, but the real cog was Emmitt Smith on those teams. Great balance, no real weakness
NY Giants Super Bowl wins? All about defense. Bears 1985? All defense and Walter Payton. Raiders? Marcus Allen.

[sq764]

Sounds like you just went from 'defense wins superbowls' to 'well offense does too, but it's mostly the running back, not the QB'

[Valuist]

I think you can win a Super Bowl with a very good defense and a average offense. Below average likely won't cut it. But its very tough to win with a team that relies all on its offense. And given a choice between importance, I say an impact RB is more important than a impact QB. Its difficult to nurse a lead if you can't run the ball. Late in the game, the most important factor is working the clock, not putting up more points. Miami and Tampa still have pretty strong defenses but their offenses are so impotent, neither team will have a good season. Jacksonville is very solid on defense and has sputtered on offense. But with Fred Taylor and Jimmy Smith, there is hope. Leftwich has potential, but no, he hasn't realized it yet. If they can get going on offense, they could be a playoff team.

[sq764]

The RB is more important that the QB??

Who was more important to New England last year, the QB or RB?

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764

You say Culpepper hasn't won a SB, has he even made the playofffs once in 5 years??

He took them to the NFC Championship game in his second or third year, I think his second actually playing. Of course, they lost like 100-0 to the Giants, but it had little to do with Culpepper. Moss quit like a dog when they got behind too, I've never forgotten that.

[Valuist]

1. the defense 2. Brady

Nobody is saying Brady isn't good. But it was a defense-first team. And they should be better offensively this year now that they have a legit RB.

CJ's right about that Viking-Giant game. Moss totally layed down.

[sq764]

Valuist, I think you really are underestimating Brady.. Let's not forget, his first real test was in 2002 when he started the whole season.. That year he threw for 3,700+ yards, completed 62.1% of his passes, threw 28 touchdowns, 14 ints..

This is not a ho-hum, just don't make any mistakes, season.. That's a fantastic year.. I don't think you really appreciate what a good QB he is..

[Valuist]

He is good. No argument. But with an average defense that team goes 8-8 last year. I think you are underestimating Ty Law and that secondary. They really frustrated the Colts. Made Manning look real bad. The opposition QB rating against them was around 60. That's horrible (for the opposing offense). We'll see how they adapt to the rules changes, since they basically resulted from that NE/Indy game.

[sq764]

Well you can play ifs and what ifs and what about.. But the bottom line is he has 2 SB rings and is likely going to be in another SB while Culpepper and Vick will be lucky to win a playoff game in the next few years..

You can speculate till the cows come home or you can be realistic..