Hagel and Lugar chime in on Iraq

[Secretariat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/international/middleeast/15CND-REBU.html?ex=1095912000&en=2127dd839c8136c7&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

[OTM Al]

I've got a lot of respect for Dick Luger. Been senator from Indiana (my home state) for as long as I can remember. For him to be coming out as critical to his party's policy is a very strong sign that things are not good.

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by OTM Al
I've got a lot of respect for Dick Luger. Been senator from Indiana (my home state) for as long as I can remember. For him to be coming out as critical to his party's policy is a very strong sign that things are not good.

Don't worry Al, it's part of the plan.

They are baiting lying Kerry to go back into his Dovish/Deaniack mode prior to the debates.

The POW/Anit-War/Sleeping with Jane Fonda ads should run just prior to the last debate.Then when lying John Kerry has gone too far Dovish to return,BLAM, President Bush slams the trap shut.

Between now and November 2, when the RNC says "Jump", the legislators say "How High".

JM

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustMissed
Don't worry Al, it's part of the plan.

They are baiting lying Kerry to go back into his Dovish/Deaniack mode prior to the debates.

The POW/Anit-War/Sleeping with Jane Fonda ads should run just prior to the last debate.Then when lying John Kerry has gone too far Dovish to return,BLAM, President Bush slams the trap shut.

Between now and November 2, when the RNC says "Jump", the legislators say "How High".

JM

lol....Lugar and Hagel are "baiting" Kerry....man, you are on the fringe!!!!

[Secretariat]

This is a real issue.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040916/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq&cid=542&ncid=716

[JustRalph]

Sec

You are aware that after the Revolutionary war the United States had mini civil wars and even small battles with leftover British supporters for as long as 26 years? Some small colonies even declared themselves back under British rule depending on who was ruling the colony at the time. You expect Iraq to roll over and play dead in 1.5 years? If we are lucky we might see a calm country with some form of peacefulness during our lifetime. But there are going to be growing pains for decades to come. It is a natural process.........for adding a measure of Democracy to the area. It has happen before, but it doesn't always take hold. There is historical precedent. The overall stability of the country will ultimately fall upon the Iraqi people. There are other countries where it has taken years...............this is just the start. to assume anything else would be mistaken.

[Secretariat]

How much is it gonna cost JR? And are you saying its gonna be 20 years to stabilize Iraq? How many more lives will be lost? And what is the guarantee that the mission will ever be truly accomplished? Maybe the American people would like to know those things rather than the Bush Yale cheer? By the looks of this article approved by our CIA Hagle and Lugar want to know....

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Sec

You are aware that after the Revolutionary war the United States had mini civil wars and even small battles with leftover British supporters for as long as 26 years? Some small colonies even declared themselves back under British rule depending on who was ruling the colony at the time. You expect Iraq to roll over and play dead in 1.5 years? If we are lucky we might see a calm country with some form of peacefulness during our lifetime. But there are going to be growing pains for decades to come. It is a natural process.........for adding a measure of Democracy to the area. It has happen before, but it doesn't always take hold. There is historical precedent. The overall stability of the country will ultimately fall upon the Iraqi people. There are other countries where it has taken years...............this is just the start. to assume anything else would be mistaken.


One of the major differences I see is that the American Reveloution was started by people within the country. It had a group of intelligent men, who, while they fought viciously amongst themselves, eventually compromised and developed a plan for this country.

The so called "liberation of Iraq" came from an outside country and a leadership that had no cohesive plan of what to do after they toppled Saddam.

We have spent billions of dollars and risk the lives of brave Americans daily. JR, I'm willing to bet if Bush told the country what you just did, that we might have to wait 20 years to see the results (which means how many lives and how many billions or trillions of dollars)we want in Iraq, that he couldn't get elected as dogcatcher.

[Equineer]

JustRalph,

Good post and reality alert!

More than the bad intel about WMDs and Al Qaeda links, it really puzzles me how we rushed into Iraq as if we were liberating Paris in WW-II.

Paraphrasing Bill Mahar.... our government thought it was making a quick action/adventure flick... but our 3-week victory turns out to have been just the trailer, filmed in advance... only now we are actually making the movie, and God knows how long that will take.

[delayjf]

One problem here is we may never know what we have prevented by invading Iraq possible one distinct possibity was a nuclear attack here in the US.

One often overlooked benefit of the Invasion is Syria gave up its wmd programs, which possibly were being funded by Iraq. By the way, has anyone been able to account for the over 500 chem/bio weapons that are still missing?:confused:

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by delayjf
One problem here is we may never know what we have prevented by invading Iraq possible one distinct possibity was a nuclear attack here in the US.


Really...where are those WMD's? Those nuclear weapons? You don't get it DJay. We were sold a bag of goods based on Chalabi's claims, and forged Niger documents. There was no "imminent" threat as Tenet and NOW Bush has said.

He made a unilateral decision alone which was wrong, based on faulty intelligence, and it has cost the american people loads in terms of lives and money.

To state "we may never know" is an equivocation. That's wrong, we do know. We found no WMD's. We found nothing of significance to prove that Hussein was either linked to 911 OR had a massive weapons program that was a threat to the US. Why else do you think the reason for war was changed to liberation for Iraqis? And now they want us out. Rumsfeld himself calls us occupiers. Senator Hagel terms events over there as "an embarrassment." That the intelligence report just approved (AND requested by President Bush) predicts possible Iraqi civil war in 2005 and has biting criticism by Republicans Lugar and Hagel and has been approved by McLaughlin of the CIA. I'm not even counting Dem's like Biden who are ballistic over the prospects contained in the report.

I'm sorry. I'm worried about our soldiers over there. I don't want them dying in another countries Civil War which was pre-emptively engaged in based on flawed intelligence, "miscalcuations", and a host of "maybes" and "we'll never knows". That's not leadership, it's a travesty.

[chickenhead]

Lugar, Hagel, and Biden have all three been making the same statements for months and months and months....I respect these three Senators quite a bit, they have always seemed like straight shooters.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Really...where are those WMD's? Those nuclear weapons? You don't get it DJay. We were sold a bag of goods based on Chalabi's claims, and forged Niger documents. There was no "imminent" threat as Tenet and NOW Bush has said.

The Brits don't agree with you. And your source on the Nuclear attempts was discredited by the Brits and the 9-11 commission. Djay is right.........we don't really know. But I do know that Saddam won't be financing France and Germany and anybody else who says they are our ally during the day and ships missiles to our enemy during the night.

I'm sorry. I'm worried about our soldiers over there. I don't want them dying in another countries Civil War which was pre-emptively engaged in based on flawed intelligence, "miscalcuations", and a host of "maybes" and "we'll never knows". That's not leadership, it's a travesty.

This is almost laughable. you care about getting the money back into social programs and electing a liberal administration. end of story..........

[Tom]

Ralph, I suspect rather strongly that had some members on this board been involved in out revolution, we would still be sipping tea and munching biscuits. Liberals talk a good game about people's rights and wanting to save everybody, but they are generally pretty short on action. Talk is what liberals are all about.
Like Kerry, they have values but do not stand up for them.

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by Tom
Ralph, I suspect rather strongly that had some members on this board been involved in out revolution, we would still be sipping tea and munching biscuits. Liberals talk a good game about people's rights and wanting to save everybody, but they are generally pretty short on action. Talk is what liberals are all about.
Like Kerry, they have values but do not stand up for them.

Actually it was the conservatives of the time who favored remaining part of Great Britain. If it were up to them we'd still be wearing powdered wigs and 3 cornered hats (and I don't look good in hats)

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by betchatoo
Actually it was the conservatives of the time who favored remaining part of Great Britain. If it were up to them we'd still be wearing powdered wigs and 3 cornered hats (and I don't look good in hats)

Inaccurate analogy. John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan were both Dems during Kennedy's reign. Kennedy would be more like a Repub today. We know that Reagan changed parties. Parties and people change over time. I get your point but time can be a bitch when it comes to making these analogies.

[betchatoo]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Inaccurate analogy. John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan were both Dems during Kennedy's reign. Kennedy would be more like a Repub today. We know that Reagan changed parties. Parties and people change over time. I get your point but time can be a bitch when it comes to making these analogies.

Actually Richard Nixon (the last Republican I voted for) would be considered a flaming liberal by most of today's GOP.

[Secretariat]

You have to give the Repub Hagel credit for calling it like it is. Boy if they had quoted Biden in the article it would have been a lot worse":

"Mr. Hagel said the State Department request was "a clear acknowledgment that we are not holding ourselves hostage to some grand illusion that we're winning."

"Mr. Hagel went on to say that the request for reprogramming the money "does not add up, in my opinion, to a pretty picture, to a picture that shows that we're winning. But it does add up to this, an acknowledgment that we are in deep trouble."

I must tell that until watching this on C_SPAN, I had not realized just how bad it has gotten.

btw..JR, lok at Kay's report, AND the report which is just coming in from a Repub inspector..No WMD's.

[doophus]

Originally posted by betchatoo
Actually Richard Nixon (the last Republican I voted for) would be considered a flaming liberal by most of today's GOP. As one who thrice voted for Nixon, I must agree with you Bet......Even in those days, he was too liberal for me, but I was just a young punk recently out of the USAF whose closest friend was and remains a very liberal (now retired, of course) USAF chaplain.

[Secretariat]

Not onlyHagel, Lugar an Biden, and Kay, and the new Repub weapons inspector, but this from a UK Colonel as reported by the BBC who inspired Bush on his previous trip there:

Iraq Coalition Didn't Plan for War Aftermath, U.K. Colonel Says
Sept. 16 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S.-led coalition in Iraq didn't plan for the aftermath of last year's invasion that ousted the Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein, U.K. Colonel Tim Collins, renowned for the speech he gave his troops on the eve of the Iraqi battle, said in a BBC interview.

``The preparations for a free and fair Iraq weren't made,'' Collins told the British Broadcasting Corp. in his first interview since leaving the Army in January. ``The U.S. and its ally the U.K. are living with the consequences of having removed the Baathist regime without any thought of what would replace it.''

Before the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, Collins told his men in the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish regiment ``if you are ferocious in battle, remember to be magnanimous in victory,'' a speech that the BBC said was put on the wall of U.S. President George W. Bush's Oval Office in the White House.

Iraqi and U.S.-led forces since the overthrow of Hussein have struggled to rein in insurgents across the country, who are opposed to the foreign troops and the new Iraqi leadership. Deadly attacks have occurred in both Sunni and Shiite Muslim parts of Iraq including Fallujah, west of Baghdad, and the southern city of Najaf. In the past two days alone at least 80 people were killed in attacks, Iraqi officials said.

``The whole international community is dismayed at the results'' of the war, Collins said. ``Iraqis are dying in the tens and hundreds on a weekly basis.''